Mayday Frequency

[Kolibear]

This is a 'what if' question.

Lets assume that you are crossing the channel, its a nice day and you are just enjoying the flight. You are tuned to London Info or someone similar and you can hear that there are maybe 3-4 other aircraft making the crossing somewhere near you.

Suddenly, the donkey up front decides that foreign fuel is not to its taste and stops.

Ignoring all the other vital actions, do you
(a) make a immediate Mayday call on London Info, knowing that there are other aircraft in the vicinity who hopefully would start searching for you, or
(b) change frequency to London D&D, make the call and rely on them being able to triangualate your position, alert the coastguards, helicopters, RNLI, cross-channel ferries etc etc, but lose the advantages of the nearby aircraft?

Does London Info have a big red panic button they can push to get London D&D involved?

[bar shaker]

Cap413 says to always make the first call to the station you are already talking to.

But in the circumstances, I would go to D&D. Although there may be 4 others on London Info, there may be more maintaining a silent watch on 121.5.

If you were sighted by another aircraft, that would be very beneficial. If you were at FL65, you've got over 10 minutes and your track should give a good chance of being rescued as quickly as possible.

Personally, I would rather talk to Manston or Solent, than London Info, as both of these have a LARS.

The one thing to remember is that circling aircraft can only guide SAR in. Your best chance if a ditch is unavoidable, is to do it just in front, to one side, of a yacht, shouting as you pass it.

[dmjw01]

If I had 121.5 already on the standby frequency (and if not, why not?) then I too would be very tempted to cut the middle-man and go straight to the chaps at D&D. Otherwise, I wouldn't faff around dialling in another frequency because of the real risk of getting even that simple operation wrong - I reckon you probably lose at least 100 IQ points during moments of intense stress like that.

Squawking 7700 would be a VERY good idea and will get D&D involved anyway, regardless what frequency you're talking on.

I agree that there are better units to talk to when you're crossing the Channel. For the Dover to C-G-N route I always use Manston.

[justsomepilot]

I'd set 7700 immediately, that will raise alarms all over the place, both in the UK and in France. The Mode C altitude going down at some 1000fpm will also make it obvious to all what's happening.

[eyeinthesky]

My vote would also be for 121.5 and 7700 for several reasons:

1) The call on 121.5 will be immediately triangulated on D&D 's magic map so you have a head start on being located

2) D&D will always be the first to call out the SAR facilities even if you make your first distress call on someone else's frequency

3) 7700 on the squawk will set (audible) alarms ringing at D&D and also (visually) alert every radar unit within range of your predicament

4) London FIS have no 'panic button' (at least not for this). They will simply call D&D by phone and pass on what you have told them. You can cut out the middle man in this case, which might result in a slightly shorter swimming lesson.

The exception to this is if you are under the CONTROL of an ATC unit. Then you MUST make call on their frequency so they know what you're doing and can move other things out of the way.

[BRL]

Koli, we will be visiting West Drayton in September so put your name down for that when it comes up and you can have a chat with D&D themselves if you want. :)

[EGBKFLYER]

I like these threads - always make me think...

How would London Info react to you 'disappearing' off frequency to call D&D? Would they find out some way on the landline or would they make fruitless calls when you didn't report your turning point and then initiate overdue action (which would be the point that they found out...)

I get a little annoyed/ concerned when folks disappear off my frequency without signing off - always makes me slightly nervous why they've gone - just changed frequency or gone down...

[boomerangben]

Do London info call D&D or ARCC Kinloss to raise the alarm?

I don't suppose it really matters who you contact first. Getting the ball rolling towards you is the most important. If you contact London info (do the controllers(?) have radars infront of them?), I am sure they would take details and hand you over to D & D. If you contact D & D first I am sure that they could contact London Info to let them know you have changed frequency. Getting your exact position across will greatly reduce the time taken to find you but whether that would be best done by radar or DF I don't know.

BRL, It would be interesting to know what coverage is like and how accurate the DF is over the Channel and other more remote parts of the the UK.

[eyeinthesky]

boomerangben:

I refer to my previous post:

"D&D will always be the first to call out the SAR facilities" (i.e ARCC Kinloss)

as I don't think anyone else has the authority to do so in this case.

The London FISOs (not controllers) are not allowed to have access to a radar for reasons of licensing, and they have to walk/run some 30m to get sight of one, which would mean abandoning the frequency on which you were telling them your problem. In the scenario described, you could of course call a Mayday and give position reports and maybe anyone in your vicinity might come looking for you. Ultimately however, London Info will pass your position report to D&D and they will try to locate you. Thus, as I have indicated, a call to D&D by you will get this process moving faster.
D&D will have no problem in letting London FIS know that you have left the FIS frequency.

By the way, London Info have no DF equipment available to them (not least because of the multiplicity of TX/RX sites they use). I don't know about the exact accuracy of the D&D DF triangulation over the Channel area, but I'm sure someone will.

[foxmoth]

1) The call on 121.5 will be immediately triangulated on D&D 's magic map so you have a head start on being located

It may be that I have missed it comming in but last I knew D & D do not have autotriangulation on 121.5, just on 243 (UHF).:(

[2Donkeys]

D and D can and do triangulate on 121.5

If I was really mid channel, I would squawk 7700 and call Lille on 120.27

Lille has powerful primary and secondary radar that can see low down all the way across the Channel. More importantly Lille can scramble the French Securité Civile Chopper which spends its time between Calais and Le Touquet. The combination of your 7700-derived position and the extreme proximity of the French chopper give you a far better chance of being rescued quickly than any other course of action.

Make sure you ditch near a ship. There are normally plenty to aim at.

2D

[2Donkeys]

bar shaker is correct. I think maybe some pilots might need to re-visit air law or comms.

I think that this is one of those cases where you can either spout "air law" (which in this case has nothing to do with it) or consider the practicalities.

The fact is that even in the summer, you will die through relatively short exposure to the channel. Whatever you do, you need to make sure that when you have ditched, you are picked up as fast as possible. Nothing else matters.

The fact is that ditching near a ship (in front and to the side of its direction of travel) and getting yourself unambiguously painted on a secondary radar screen are invaluable. Similarly, the knowledge that of all the various authorities you might be talking to, Lille is the one with the helicopter at its immediate and direct beck-and-call; and the odds are that the helicopter concerned will be within 30nm of your position in the worst case.

This has bugger-all to do with air-law or CAPnnn, this has to do with the decision most likely to bring about your survival.

If you don't have 120.27 available (even on standby) as you get towards the French side of the channel, perhaps you should give it serious consideration. They are NOTAMed as not talking to VFR traffic at the moment - but don't let that deter you. from having the frequency tuned.

2D

[boomerangben]

2Ds,

Would the French helo cross the FIR though? If you ditched on the British side, I would imagine they would get on the blower to London.

Kolibear,

I am not sure that there is a significant advantage of having other small aircraft looking for you bobbing around in the drink. Once the aircraft has sunk, unless you have a flare, they are very unlikely to spot you. Best get the professionals involved right from the word go and it seems that 121.5 is the way to go.

[2Donkeys]

2Ds,

Would the French helo cross the FIR though? If you ditched on the British side, I would imagine they would get on the blower to London.

Nope. When it comes to saving life and soul, the French chopper can and will go wherever it takes. It would be a mistake to confuse PPL Air Law with the pragmatic approach needed to meet an emergency of this sort.

2D

[bar shaker]

I think that this is one of those cases where you can either spout "air law" (which in this case has nothing to do with it) or consider the practicalities.

I agree completely which is why my next sentence was that personally I would call 121.5. Knowing that you used CAP413 correctly will be of bugger all use to you as you slip into a hyperthermic coma.

The point about time to get rescued is a very valid one. I believe the nearest helicopter base for SAR is now Wattisham. Quite incredible that the nearest base to the world's busiest shipping lane is an hour away.

The Lille option definitely seems the best and I will be using that from now on. Thanks 2D, that advice may just save someone's life :ok:

[Warped Factor]

Official D&D 121.5 Coverage (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/224/srg_gad_D&D_poster.pdf)

WF.

[John Farley]

Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, Callsign, Callsign, Callsign, Engine failure to 121.5 out.

10 secs or so.

Got to be the right way to do it

[A and C]

I agree with John above quick call to London info and then switch without delay to D&D.
Most airliners are listening to 121.5 these days so if you can broadcast a radial and distance from a nav aid (your GPS should give you the nearest nav aid or airport) the guys in the airliners can put this into the fix page on the FMC and pinpoint your position , they can't come to your aid but they can pass the info on and they will be able to hear you long after you are out of range of ground stations so can pass on a fix given just before you hit the water.

[englishal]

(and if not, why not?)
Because its set up for arrival ATIS / Approach / Tower whatever.

I'd call on the same frequency I was already on, sqwark 7700, pop the ELT, zip the survival suit up, make sure flares are in my pocket, aim for a ship, open the doors, tighten seat belts and ditch....

[Circuit Basher]

call on the same frequency I was already on, sqwark 7700, pop the ELT, zip the survival suit up, make sure flares are in my pocket, aim for a ship, open the doors, tighten seat belts and ditch.... and all the times remembering to 'Aviate, Navigate, Communicate'!! :D

I'm personally in the 'Go Directly to 121.5 without passing GO' camp - if opportunity / time permitted, then a quick courtesy call to the ATSU I'm working to say 'G-xx QSYing to 121.5'. I know it's not CAP413, but I hope they'd let me off just the once!! ;)

[Warped Factor]

I'm personally in the 'Go Directly to 121.5 without passing GO' camp - if opportunity / time permitted, then a quick courtesy call to the ATSU I'm working to say 'G-xx QSYing to 121.5'. I know it's not CAP413, but I hope they'd let me off just the once!!

I'd suggest that if you're already talking to and identified by a radar equiped unit you're probably much better staying with them. Going to D&D will just increase your workload as you have to change freq, call them and then they have to try and find you before they can help you. Whereas if you stick with the radar unit you're already talking to then ATC can do all the liaising with D&D on your behalf on the landline, many units have direct lines to D&D.

In other circumstances it might well be worth leaving the ATC unit you're with and going direct to D&D, say on London Info. But if already identified on a radar display and working said radar equiped unit, best to stick with them imo.

WF.

[Paris Dakar]

If you get the chance to go to D&D at West Drayton - take it.

I visited them last year and I have to say that it was one of the most interesting afternoons I've spent in a long time. They took the time and effort and answered every question that was asked of them.

During my PPL training I never had the chance to make a visit to any ATC unit so I wasn't sure what I was expecting to see. To be sitting at WD watching aircraft bashing the circuit at EGNT was amazing.

The folk that work at D&D do a superb job - you will not be dissapointed with the visit I can assure you.

PD

[boomerangben]

They are NOTAMed as not talking to VFR traffic at the moment - but don't let that deter you. from having the frequency tuned.


2D's,

I cannot fault your logic - it would seem that Lille might be able to provide an accurate fix of your position and scramble the closest SAR asset, (I am surprised that the radar controller would have a red telephone direct to a SAR helo unit - in the UK it has to come from ARCC or the Coastguard). But the above quote sounds alarm bells to me. Why are they NOTAM'd as not for VFR Traffic? Are they too busy? If so, maybe the wait to get a word in edgeways would offset any advantage using them might have?

The point about time to get rescued is a very valid one. I believe the nearest helicopter base for SAR is now Wattisham. Quite incredible that the nearest base to the world's busiest shipping lane is an hour away.

May be that is simply indicative of how infrequently these sort of incidents happen and that Manston (when it still had a SAR aircraft) was felt to be under utilised?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I visited them last year Do the still have the Double Diamond logo on the door?

[Warped Factor]

Affirm (and yes they do, to get past the minimum word count).

WF.

[MLS-12D]

I think that this is one of those cases where you can either spout "air law" (which in this case has nothing to do with it) or consider the practicalities.There are many, many such cases.

Frankly, legal concerns should be the last thing on a pilot's mind in an emergency. Like the old saying goes, "I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried out by six". In any event, the pilot in command has considerable discretion in such situations, and the risk of prosecution (let alone conviction) is very low.

[bar shaker]

WF

I would suggest that your chances of getting a RIS or RAS on a weekend day would be slim to none.

D&D will pin point your position instantly on the magic map as it uses your radio signal to get three bearing. Getting a radar fix may need course changes and may take some time, especially if the channel looks like snow on the screen. Better than nothing, but not the best that's available to you.

If you started calling Mayday to Lille, I suspect they would answer pretty quickly.

[brockenspectre]

Excellent thread Kolibear ... have duly noted the proposed visit to D&D BRL - would just like to add that a yacht or small vessel is the one to plan to ditch alongside as they are able to stop/turn easily - the big guys, even if they see you, can apparently take a few miles to effect a course adjustment (so I have been told) :ok:

[Max Contingency]

In the original post you mentioned that there were several other aircraft on frequency. It is probably worth a thought to how you might react on hearing a mayday transmitted on the frequency in use.

The distress aircraft only needs to know that someone has heard him, they can then get on with the business in hand.

If you hear a mayday in flight that is not acknowledged by ATC then you should reply with 'C/S this is C/S roger mayday out'. Then on either the freq in use or 121.5 you should broadcast 'mayday relay X3 this is C/S'. When asked to pass the message, pass it exactly as you heard it and be sure to emphasise the callsign that you are relaying for so that you are not mistaken as the aircraft in distress.

[A and C]

It would seem that most of you have missed the point, the most important thing is to get a fix out just before you hit the water that way you take the "search" out of search and reascue !.

Thirty feet above the water D & D won't hear you, London info won't hear you and any radar unit you might be working won't hear you but a large number of airliners WILL hear you because they are all listening to 121.5 these days.

Speed of rescue is vital as your life expectancy in the sea is very short and if the rescue guys know the correct place to look you will increase your chances ten fold. now go back and read my first post on this subject and think about using ALL the assets that are avalable to you and how to use them to your best advantage.

[Pole Hill]

A and C,
With all respect, I would feel uncomfortable transmitting a mayday at the last minute. For the reasons that you describe, it appears to be a good idea, but if you weren't heard for whatever reason by another flight crew, nobody would know the position of the aircraft.
Surely a better approach would be to:
1. Transmit on current ATS frequency or 121.5MHz as appropriate, when you normally would during the emergency drill.
2. Transmit on current ATS frequency or 121.5MHz as appropriate, just before hitting the water.
The best of both worlds?
POL

[bar shaker]

This is the point I was making about establishing a track with D&D. If you called every 500ft or even every 1000ft and read out your altitude, they would be able to work out your splash point quite quickly and send SAR towards that area before you were even in the drink.

[A and C]

I can assure you that almost all airliners have box 2 tuned to 121.5 these days for security reasons so you would be broardcasting to a lot of aircraft of course the LAST fix should be transmited as you are about to hit the water the first one should be made as soon as you know you have a problem.

I like most pepole with a panel mounted GPS can also fix a radial and distance from a nav aid/airport so if I was near and in a position to start a search then I would, it is very important to get the search started quickly and vital if the victims are not in a liferaft. The psycological effect on the people in the water of an aircraft overhead cannot be overstated and the help in visual identification of the victims to a rescue helicopter is very usefull to aid a fast pickup.

I have twice been in a position to relay for a seach and resuce aircraft operating at low level, once for a helicopter in the channel working London info and that was hard work due to the large amount of other radio traffic and due to this traffic a switch to 121.5 was imminent when the seach was called off.

The other time was for a Nimrod over the north atlantic south of Ireland in both cases the search aircraft was out of VHF range of controling units. I have no doubt that both the helicopter and the Nimrod could have used the HF to contact controling units but I think they prefered the relay option to cut down on crew workload.

[Emergencies R Us]

Afternoon, I just thought that I might put in my 2-penneth. My own personal feeling is that, if you have the time, put in the call on your in-use frequency. FIR would almost certainly call us to say that they were transferring you to 121.5. That way as well we can start the ball rolling. However, circumstance can often dictate otherwise. As far as coverage is concerned, some thoughts.

1. The important part of the DF coverage figures to take away is that it is based on coverage over land. Hence, south of Manchester and east of N864 (the north-south airway in Wales) coverage is 3000’ and within the LTMA 2000’ doesn’t quite give you the full picture. However, our actual DF coverage is better than the design specification figures and we certainly get DF over the oggin.

2. Don’t let the DF coverage figures confuse you about our RT coverage on 121.5 though. It’s generally a lot better than the DF coverage. Having said that, there are times when we can hear you and you can’t hear us because of altitude/position etc, or that an overflying ac can hear you, but not us and relay your message to us. It may sound long-winded but it does work, as some of you may be able to testify and all our controllers are trained to do that kind of lateral thinking.

3. On the lateral thinking topic, someone mentioned our radar coverage over the south coast as not being very good. Well that’s true, however, we liaise with a number of other radar equipped units, civil and military, who have radars in those areas and if D&D asks them to look, then people are always keen to help.

One final note about visits. As some of you know, it’s very easy to visit D&D. I think everyone who visits gets a lot out of it and it really is as easy as making a phonecall and sending an email to organize. For anyone who can’t visit but has questions to ask just give us a call. Our number is in the books.

Happy Flying!!
:ok:

[Pole Hill]

A and C,
Thanks for your feedback. I underestimated the number of aircraft that would be listening on 121.5MHz, but you put me straight on that one. :ok: I've now amended my drill so that an extra call would be made just before 'landing.'

Emergencies R Us,
Its quite interesting to learn that its easy to visit D&D. I am quite keen on visiting D&D, sadly living in Yorkshire, it would be a long drive. The weather is too unreliable to book a visit and fly down :{
POL

[Tonka Toy]

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah Blah! -

Right, you lot, The nearest SAR assett is Coastguard Echo November at Manston, infact manston ATC could spit on it from the tower - no that they do that much! - 121.5 bleating will galvanise Dover Coastguard and they'll just launch Echo November sharpish and two highly trained normal down to earth determined blokes or possibly one lady from Atlantic at Coventry will come and save you with a complimentary 11 man air droppable life raft amongst other things and some ribald comments or jokes about how fetching you look in dayglo -orange! 'Echo November' is away for a well earned pamper - 're-build' at the mo, but I believe either a 404 or a 406 is covering in the interim month or so! - She is of course G-BCEN - a BN Islander - bit of a local legend to those that know her - perhaps to to those that now do!

The French have a Dauphin or Alouette over the other side. of the two, I would prefer 'EN' as they always turn up! When she comes back she will be all weather day and night, though fish and chips is Tuesday night - if you could just avoid that!

[boomerangben]

Is that the counter pollution aircraft? I didn't realise she was equiped and nominated as a SAR asset. Great if they could find me and get a good position for a SAR helo but I'd rather not be bombed with a life raft. Can they get it close enough to be swimable for without risking a direct hit?

[Tonka Toy]

No, her prime responsibility is to the Chanel Nav Information Service, But she can find you and drop to you (or near - no you don't want one landing on your head - they are HEAVY) Quite probably she will have got you to a nice warm hot chocky before the helis' even started up!

She does not do counter pollution as a primary roll though obviously she concerns herself with it should it come to light. Pollution is the 404 / 406 domain. So new toys means new potential - oh the excitement!- they'll have to put her on the TV Coastguard program now and the other forgotten fixed wing assets!

Basically boom big brother is watching over you!

PS: if you do end up in the drink with a raft - do get in it, it will make it easier for people to see you and avoid running over you!;)

[boomerangben]

Thanks for the advice, Tonka. Mind you given that ships can't seem to miss a blooming great sunken car carrier, I doubt being in a life raft will make much difference to the chances of being run down.

Does EN have FLIR?

[UV]

On a visit to D & D, some years ago, we were told the story of the guy who ditched his PA 28 south of the Isle of Wight (maybe even at night I think). He did not get through to anyone.. (too low).. but got picked up very quickly.. How?

Well, he squawked 7700 and the alarm bells went off for a very brief second at D&D, even though the squawk was only seen on ONE radar sweep, as he went into the water.

The guys replayed the tape several times, plotted the position and sent the chopper out.

A VERY relieved pilot.

Moral...get the squawk on IMMEDIATELY.

Then talk to 121.5...preferably to a Brit..so as to remove any language problems. (IMHO).

UV

[A and C]

From most of the posts above the advice seems to assume that the unfortunate aircraft will ditch in the English Channel or the Irish sea.

My opinions voiced above are not limmited to the waters near the UK and are what I would do if I was about to ditch away from the UK in an area that is not as well covered with SAR assets, with the airliners all monitering 121.5 these days if you are about to ditch in the Southern Med the first responce that get to a "Mayday call" is likely to be from an airliner.

This leads me to think that most of you don't venture much south of Le Touquet................ there is a whole world of great flying to be had if you go south....... go do it !!

[Tonka Toy]

Boom,

Yup, all mod cons, even more when shes finnished no doubt! Remember dinghys at least bounce, and you'd be surprised how manouverable those 'boats' are when they have something to think about!

Don't mention car ferries! - you ever see a Coastguard 406 intercept a cargo ship - me neither, but I am told its pretty spectacular!! :hmm:

The only people that had their s@!* wired together that day were the Cov Recce coastguard boys from Cov and Manston.

I believe that if you approach them nicely they might even let you have a look the next time you land away at Manston - heaven knows the airport needs the landing fees!

I understand the Big Boss for Reconnaissance at Cov is Air Marshal Cliff Spink.

They're a super bunch of guys down to earth and very modest with it if a little weird!!:=