Short cuts: What's in it for me?

[ItchyFeet2]

Could someone tell me who I should go and see to claim my free upgrades, free tickets etc, because I have saved "XYZ" airline a fortune by giving short cuts every day?

It seems odd (but feel free to give your tuppence worth) that I am expected to work harder (coordinating, scan for extra conflicts, pass revisions, anticipate new climb and descent profiles...) just so that an aircraft can "catch up because we're running late, today" (same as yesterday and the day before...)

Yet any time that I queried about an upgrade, or fam flight, or concession....Sorry, we're not allowed to do that!; It's up to the FSD/ CSD / Gate supervisor/ Duty manager....

In fact everyone but the people I talk to each day when I am doing more than my jobs worth!!!

And if this isn't possible, could I arrange for a percentage of the bonus pilots get for saving fuel by hassling controllers?

Honestly, you would think it was your own money you were spending, the way you can bombard an overworked controller by "Can we route direct...", "Can we fly to ...", stamping on other calls, interfering with readbacks...

There's usually a very good reason why we, as controllers don't give you short cuts! It's called "other aircraft"!!!

You do realise that there is more than one of you out there don't you? Honest?

Well, could you please remember that next time?

Regards,

IF2

[Carnage Matey!]

You can offset it against every time I've expedited to help you out!

[Del Prado]

Actually Carnage, I think the expedite was to help you out;)

[ItchyFeet2]

carnage Matey...

Think you're barking up the wrong tree with that one!

Firstly, I personally think that "expedite" should be removed from ICAO phraseology. It means absolutely nothing!

Previous rate of climb...100ft per min.


expedite...new rate of climb 101ft per min...

Secondly, by obeying an ATC instruction, you are helping yourself and other aircraft out...not the controllers!

You think we get bonuses for vectoring aircraft or number of transmissions we can make?

Methinks you are one of them people I was reffering to...???


(Spot on Del Prado!!!)

regards,

IF2

[opnot]

Carnage Matey
I am quite happy for traffic to pass you before you get climb or descent., but thats not in the nature of the job.

[vegas_jonny]

Now, how does it go? Ah yes, "you're only down there, because I'm up here";)

[catchup]

As a pilot, yes I'm asking for shortcuts. Even if I'm already on overtime.

Means, I'm working against my purse.

So what? It's for the benefit of our passengers (most of the time we are late, aren't we?) and my company (fuel, blocktime).

regards

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

I work on the principle that if a short-cut is available, then generally I'll get it. However, to ask is demeaning and rankles with the controllers.

[qwertyuiop]

Makes me laugh! Coming out of TFS all the Jetsets etc pleading for short cuts, saves at least 5 mins on their return flight. Chill out you lot!! Who are you trying to save money for? The management who would shaft you at the drop of a hat aren't worth it. Bimble home at ECON speed, save the planet and reduce your blood presure.

G+20. How right you are!

[jonny dangerous]

ItchyFeet, I am one guilty of asking for 'direct' etc when possible, provided the distance shortened and the change in groundspeed are favourable. At 60$ a barrel for oil, I am probably more often looking for the shortcuts...what til the doomsday sayers are proved correct and oil goes up even higher...I'll be even more of a pain in the...

I've taken to telling my First Officers of late that my justification for the increase in radio traffic by doing so, is that (atleast here in Canada) the Air Navigation system is a 'user (the Airline) pay' system. Therefore, for our company's money spent, I want a high level of service. As well, I like to mention that one of the prime movers in switching to RVSM (and the risk associated with decreased separation), was the increase of direct routings etc, thereby saving the airline industry, and hence the travelling public more money and time. I like to avail myself of those benefits...

I'll have to be honest that at the outfit I work at, we gain monetarily from our company's financial fortunes, so I might have a stronger motive than some. The reality is though, that as PROFESSIONAL pilots, part our profession is to be efficient as possible, within the guidelines of something we call airmanship.

Some might even defend decreased fuel burnt with decreased hydrocarbons deposited in the atmosphere. Some might, but I won't for now.

I might add that there is a time and place for everything, and experience continues to educate me when that right time to make requests is. The controllers here are generally quite helpful when they can be. Most of the time I actually feel like a part of a large team when integrating my own flight within the big ATC system.


Anyway Itchy, those our my two cents. Hope this helped clarify part of the issue.

JD

[Avman]

There was a time when a great deal more social contact existed between ATC, airline ops management and aircrews. They visited us, we visited them. We used to get free (yes FREE) flights and jump seats to boot. On the longer flights it gave both parties ample opportunity to exchange information and discuss their respective operational constraints. Much was learned by both sides. Today it’s virtually all gone. Itchy has a point, why bother anymore. Just do the job you’re paid for Itchy. Do it well but don’t stretch yourself beyond the call of duty. Neither airline managers nor your own ATC managers will thank you or reward you for it. This is the new world we work in, thanks to idiotic restrictions invented by morons in the name of security, and thanks to narrow minded beancounters running airlines and ATC. :yuk:

[maxy101]

Because you're a professional and it's your job?

[flying scotsman]

did a deal a few months ago where london ATC offered to get me direct to the IAF in germany if I'd buy his mum and dad (who were in the back) a Gin and Tonic each!!!

best fiver I ever spent.

I tend not to ask for them too much as I think most UK ATCOs will try and do it anyway. :ok:

en-route short cuts are a great help and hugely appreciated. If we don't sound too greatful when we get them it's because we don't want to take up the airwaves sounding like a teenager saying thanks.....

as for upgrades I can't even get them :sad:

[Rainboe]

I can't quite see 'Rumours & News' in here somehow!

[Stupendous Man]

Maxy - Professionals - yes, and bloody proud of that. It is not, however, our job to provide direct routeings and shortcuts - no matter the reason for them being requested. come and take a visit one day and see how much is involved in your shortcut - the telephonecalls to co-ordinate (with usually more than 1 sector), the extra r/t that can be involved, sometimes re-routes and new strips are involved. All this while trying to keep a sector running as normal. Are the 20 miles saved worth it???

[hapzim]

Aye scotsman

Even freight takes priority over staff, who are on discounted tickets not freebes anymore. Third class seat if your not working your passage.


Directs are aways appreciated, but please wait to be offered don't harasse. Good r/t listen out etc and london atc please take a breath let us get a call in:D

[opnot]

Avman
Top Posting
It sums up what is wrong with this industry at this moment in time .Men In Suits Rule Ok

[CosmosSchwartz]

Seeing as ATC charges are usually based on aircraft weight, not distance flown or time in sector, by asking for direct we are actually costing our airline more in ATC charges due to burning off less fuel, generating more income for your employer, securing your job and giving you a better chance of a wage rise next year:hmm:

IF2, I'm guessing you've had a hard day and just wanted to vent some steam, and we can all understand that. If we're asking for direct routings because we're running late or whatever it's because we want to get our passengers where they want to go with the minimum of inconvenience. They are the customer and they pay ALL our wages.

[deathcruzer]

ItchyFeet2

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet any time that I queried about an upgrade, or fam flight, or concession....Sorry, we're not allowed to do that!; It's up to the FSD/ CSD / Gate supervisor/ Duty manager....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Don’t worry we pilots don’t get anything from the airline either……

You have to be in management to get the little bonuses… But direct routings do get us home quicker… and we thank you all for that…Then we can knock off.
:mad:

[Earthmover]

Sorry to disillusion you - management don't get the perks either unless you are a CEO.

But the guy has a point - we don't liaise like we used to and we understand less and less about what each other is doing. I had the terrific experience of sitting next to a London TMA controller once - and I was utterly stunned at the pressure this lady was under - and completely in awe of how well she finessed it all. Since then I give a little brief-ette on how things are in the ATCC when my trainee asks for higher or a direct. Similarly, a controller on the jump seat once said to me that he was stunned to find out that my primary function wasn't just sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for his next call - I actually was quite busy, and he saw how calls could be missed.

If I had my way you'd tavel First every time - except hardly any of us have 'First' any more!

[West Coast]

"Are the 20 miles saved worth it???"

20 miles, likely about two to three minutes saved. Consider larger airlines have a thousand to a couple of thousand departures a day. If even 25% save 2 to 3 minutes each flight, over the course of a year its going to save a lot of fuel/money. We are very careful about even running the APU let alone one of the engines when not needed. So, thanks for making all the calls to the other sectors along with all the other stuff needed to get a short cut, its appreciated.

[Vasa]

It's a shame you feel that way, IF2.

Not sure what centre you work at, but I feel your pain.
I work at Swanwick Centre in England, and control on two northern sectors. I regularly try and get a/c directs even if they don't ask, generally coz it means they're on my frequency for a shorter period of time. It benefits them, and me. It's a win-win situation.

I don't remember ever having any problems, or being over-loaded because of this. I certainly don't remember seeing an a/c change his climb rate because he's going direct. Maybe I'm not paying enough attention.

It's a real shame that you're only prepared to make those 8 second phone calls if there's something in it for you. I guess 70 grand a year isn't enough.

[ItchyFeet2]

Vasa

Seventy grand....you having a laugh?

What currency are you talking about?

One of the main gripes that pilots have about controllers is that controllers give instructions at the wrong time, and aren't aware of the workload of the pilots.

I must say, I completely agree with this statement!

The only way to solve this is for fam flights, where ATC actually see what pilots are doing during the different phases of flight!

These have long since gone and everyone thinks this is wrong, both pilots and ATC. But is anyone actually complaining to management about it?

Next time ATC does something you don't agree with, instead of giving out on freq, or muttering to fellow crew later...why not go to your ops department and arrange for your local ATC unit to have fam flights?

In the same way, most pilots I've talked to think it's a great idea to visit ATC units, to see what we are doing. To see why asking us for short cuts can be a right hassle.

But how many have actually done that? Very very few in my experience!

In a nut shell, unless ATC and flight crew know what is required from each other (and what not to ask for!!), the situation will get worse and worse!

Regards,

IF2

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Saddens me a bit, this thread. I spent my whole working life trying to provide the best service to aircraft, irrespective of the airline, because that was part of my job (Safe and EXPEDITIOUS flow of traffic it used to say).

As for cheapy flights - I got one freebie from South African Airways when they had that special deal for ATCOs many years ago... and have had one paid-for flight through UKATTS. For those I am eternally grateful, but didn't look on either as something I deserved. Oh yes.. a Concorde Captain bunged us a bottle of fizz when I gave him a fighter circuit at Heathrow one evening..

Methinks things are a-changing...

[Capt Pit Bull]

Personally, I very rarely ask for a short cut. The one situation when I will is if I am weather avoiding and the waypoint in question is a convenient way of describing where I want to go - e.g. "request right 15 for weather or direct XYZ would keep us clear".

I figure ATC know their chunk of the sky better than I do and will give me a direct when its possible and practical. Inevitably though you end up flying with people who are never happy unless they are badgering ATC for shortcuts, and you then spend a fair chunk of time reining them in - often because the proposed shortcut is clearly impractical, or the extra RT on a busy sector is clearly inappropriate.

I can understand why they feel that way though - because one often hears people requesting a direct and getting it. To the ATCers, I have to say though there is an element of making a rod for your own backs here - if lots of people in your sector are asking for directs and you are granting them, it kind of means you've lost the initiative in who is running your chunk of airspace. A few 'negatives' might put the ball back in your court.

Personally, the one piece of RT that just makes my eyes roll is "we're running late, any chance of direct XYZ?". Its either available or it isn't. Who cares if you're late - normally we all are! Or do they expect ATC to shove people out of the way?

Let the controllers do their jobs with as little hassle as possible. Thats my policy. Seems to work, most of the routes I fly on a regular basis I know well, and the directs generally come at the same point whether we ask or not.

CPB

[Gary Lager]

Fam flights have not long gone - they just require a few more phone calls/e-mails than in the good old days. Personal contact makes all the difference, you can't just wait for your line manager to do it on your behalf anymore.

I don't like asking for directs much - after years flying up and down europe one knows where the shortcuts are likely to appear, and where they are not. When asked to request a direct by P2, we often have a quick discussion about the airspace, R/T workload any other things, and if the request was just because he's

After several visits to LTCC and LACC I appreciate the workload often undergone by controllers, but sometimes if the frequency is quiet and a shortcut is suggesting itself (maybe late at night, or Wx on track) I will make a request for a direct routing.

And it is just that - a request. I have no knowledge at that time of all the factors affecting the possibility of being granted the direct or not - if I did have such a crystal ball, we wouldn't need ATCOs in the first place! So until I ask I don't really know what the chances are. If you can't do it, for reasons including, but not limited to, workload, danger areas, other traffic, etc etc, then say "Negative". That's all I require.

I believe it is in fact an indication of the professionalism of the majority of ATCOs out there, that they feel obliged to explain why they can't grant a direct. Any stress they feel resulting from these denied requests could quite possibly stem from the feeling that they have been unable to complete the 'task' to as high a standard as they would like (known as the "Zeigarnik effect", I think).

Same (to a certain extent) with wx avoidance. We ask, you say No, we have to think of Plan B. If things are that desperate that there is no Plan B - we'll tell you so, or divert. Not convenient, but hopefully never unsafe.

Unlike asking for credit at my local, a refusal never offends. Though neither should the request.

[Vasa]

IF2,
since top of the scale at LACC, with shift pay etc, is about £78,000, no, I'm not having a laugh.

I get the impression that you're not long valid. My point was that if giving a direct causes you a problem, just don't give it. And maybe give a reason why not, rather than just sounding obnoxious.

I'm just not sure why you're getting so worked up about a problem that's so trivial.

[nitefiter]

I asked a controller,(london sector 290 to SFD) going into CDG "IF" he knew which runway they were using .Seemed to really hack him off.
We were out of CDG atis range and our met showed 03 kts vrb,the fo wasnt familliar with CDG and wanted to get his brief done early.I didnt want this guy to go off and find out for us a simple no would have sufficed.
Should we not ask these questions now either?

[Radar]

Guys,

Absolutely no problem with asking for a direct ..... but if the answer in 'negative', for goodness sake drop the conversation. Standard pactice with us is, if the airspace is ours to use, you'll get direct as a matter of course (no pun intended). We have had a couple of instances in the past two weeks of crew continuing to bitch and moan on the frequency upon refusal of a direct routeing or position in a sequence. Both involved airlines who are 'local' so to speak and should know the score as regards airspace structure and traffic demands. We don't have time for this crap. Apart from the unprofessional angle, it doesn't do much except ruin everybody's day and leave a pretty negative image of the company concerned.

[eyeinthesky]

nitefiter:

From LACC point of view, the only runway-in-use information we have instantly available is:
EGLL
EGKK
EGSS
EGCC
EGBB
EGGW
and even the last two are not always updated very quickly.

For any others, we either:

have to look up the latest METAR on our system and make a guess based upon the wind there (but you could do that as you say) and also we do not know all the available runways and which is in use (take AMS as an example).

or:

have to phone up the relevant centre or unit and ask them. This of course takes time and could interfere with the other tasks a planner has to do. The planner then has to pass that information to the Tactical and they have to transmit it to you.

But you are of course right:"a simple no would have sufficed."

[Jerricho]

I can't believe I am reading some of this crap.

Maxy sums it up perfectly:

Because you're a professional and it's your job?

[Arkady]

The only thing I feel entitled to after giving a direct routing, particularly one that was requested by a pilot, is a simple thank you.

Jerricho I'm afraid I disagree, it is not part of the job. It 's that little bit extra that most are willing to give, most of the time, but should not be relied on.

[Jerricho]

Actually Ark, that's a fair point. It's not actually part of the job.

However, a professional stance to a legitimate request is. What's in it for me? Satisfaction of helping a brother (or sister) out.

[Widger]

Short Cuts?


Makes your Todger look bigger doesn't it?