White Waltham fuel rip-off

[SensibleATCO]

White Waltham have now increased the price of fuel to £1.20 per litre. So if you are thinking of visiting make sure that you don't need to take on fuel.
Any other clubs out there fleecing the members for fuel ?

[helicopter-redeye]

Was that incl. VAT? (and a three course dinner...)

[matspart3]

....because the refineries give the stuff away to Aerodrome operators free of course!!

The wholesale price of AVGAS has risen nearly 20p per litre since last year, surely the 'end user' has to take some of the additional cost?

[Lomcovaks]

To give WW their due, they don't charge a landing fee if you uplift more than about 40Lts of fuel. That would be equivalent to a landing fee of £1.20 for fuel priced at £1.05/Lt and uplifting the 40Lts.

I know of plenty of places that charge a tenner or more for a landing fee and then still want more than £1.05/Lt for fuel.

Also, compared to a lot of near to London airfields WW does have a unique atmosphere and a decent clubhouse/bar with friendly and helpful staff.

And no, I'm not based there or have anything to do with them other than being an occasional visitor.

[helicopter-redeye]

But was the £1.20/ l inc VAT?

If so it is 'about right'.

Quite a few places charge no LF if uplifting a reasonable amount of fuel.

If a SEP has a capacity of 74USG (280.09l) and uplifts close to this then it is a higher landing fee than if you uplift 11USG because it is tied to fuel uplift volume.

Hope the rest of the country does not follow suite on the price ...

[CKnopfell]

Try Cambridge.

1.32 / Litre (inc vat) !!!

A little research shows Northampton (Sywell) at 1.12 / Litre and Peterboro (Connington) at 1.18 / Litre.

Anyone volunteer to maintain a sticky with up to dat AvGas prices?

[matspart3]

Gloucester £1.15 including VAT (w.e.f. today), with discounted landing fees subject to a 50/100ltr uplift for singles/twins

[helicopter-redeye]

Anyone volunteer to maintain a sticky with up to dat AvGas prices?

The HCGB do this with every edition of Rotortorque, hence the question on VAT ...

Cambridge was most expensive at £1.16

Fenland least at £0.81

... and a normal distribution curve in between.

Hope Lycoming can come up with a J A1 burning diesel retrofit soon.

[Pianorak]

But was the £1.20/ l inc VAT?
Yes, it is incl. of VAT

[Red Four]

£1.20 for fuel - absolutely disgraceful! (not)

If someone has to divert in for emergency/weather reasons, and they are going to get ripped off like this (pretty standard charge) for fuel, we need a campaign for free fuel uplift for emergency/weather diversions. It is only right and proper that an airfield should pick up the charges for everything to do with flying if there is an emergency or weather diversion involved.
Imagine the safety implications of someone trying to forge on those extra few miles just to be able to pick up cheaper fuel at a more distant aerodrome due to the non-participation of a particular airfiled in the scheme.:rolleyes: Perhaps AOPA's CS could take this on?:rolleyes:

[helicopter-redeye]

Yes, it is incl. of VAT


Thank you for the simple answer.

Therefore, net of VAT £1.02, which is actually "quite good" and in fact "quite average".

Endex, I think?

[niknak]

Sensible is obviously way behind the times, avgas prices have gone up - by an average of 5 - 8 p a litre - in the last two weeks, this is entirely due to the spot price of oil on the futures market going up by a similar percentage.

Do you think that the suppliers (airfields) are benefiting from this? The short answer is no, in fact their profit margins go down considerably in such situations and often they lose out entirely.

Pay the market rate, just as you would for your car, (for Red 4 and Sensible's benefit, supermarkets dont supply avgas), or try and arrange for your own supplies, perhaps then you'll realise exactly what's involved. :rolleyes:

P.S.

Red Four speaks out of his/her hat, free landing fees maybe, but any pilot of any worth would sort out safety first and worry about peripheral factors second, to do anything else would be grossly negligent.

[bar shaker]

Lets get real. Oil is $60 a barrel.

If any of us ran our businesses, or our bosses businesses, at less than 20% gross margin, we would soon be out of a job or business.

If I was buying Avgas at 98p a litre, I would sell it at £1.20.

If someone else still has tank residue that they bought at 85p, then go fly there and fill up.

We all have a very rude awakening coming to us.

[eharding]

niknak - Red Four was extracting the Michael.

In the past couple of months we've managed to put about £2K
a month through Waltham's pumps into the Yak....I swear the
thing knows the way back to the pumps on it's own. It's still
cheaper per litre than beer, and Yaks don't run too well on
beer (but donglers do, so bung a couple of quid in the Dongler
Beer Fund tin next time at the pumps).

Besides, if WLAC fuel is so expensive, why do Booker seem
to have been organising regular "Refuel at Waltham"
weekends recently? :E

[aerobatic_dude]

€1.64 per litre here:rolleyes:

[ChewyTheWookie]

Takes the p*ss slightly that it is still the equivalent of 35p a litre in the USA...

[Zulu Alpha]

Yes fuel has gone up by about 20p per liter. At Old Buckenham today it was £1.12/L (inc VAT) for members (who get free landings).

Don't forget that of the 20p increase 3p goes to Gordon Brown!!

[helicopter-redeye]

Somebody asked me a PM question about an earlier point.

Attached the answer verbatim for the ROW.

Helicopter Club of GB (HCGB) "Helitorque" - provided freed to members. Editor Pat Malone (real name and PPrune Handle as well). I don't believe you can buy it at News-stands. Each edition gives a run down on 100LL, A1, landing and other charges by UK airfield.

[Captain Airclues]

Enjoy the 'cheap' fuel while you can. BA are currently hedging their 2006 fuel at the equivalent of $78/barrel. Expect $100/barrel by mid 2006. Flying is going to become rather expensive.

Airclues

[Dan Dare]

A quick look at The Hangar (http://www.thehangar.co.uk/fuel/fuel.shtml) fuel comparison section would seem to confirm that £1.20 is about the going rate. Don't refuel at Aberdeen though, where its 17 % higher!

Incidentally, Booker refuelled elsewhere recently due to a problem with the pumps, not cost.

[flyingfemme]

Takes the p*ss slightly that it is still the equivalent of 35p a litre in the USA...

It's more like 45ppl now.......been going up sharply over there as well.

[hedfan]

Caernarfon charged me 2 weeks ago £1.15/Ltr PLUS VAT and a landing fee of £17 (PA34) never again I will tank up with return fuel and not top up just in case it becomes IFR on the return.:{

[Flash0710]

Fuel is not just a problem at EGLM In pilot this month they are reporting that the Alderney fly in is cancelled due to problems with the supply.

Remember this? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163569&highlight=Alderney+Fuel)

Not quite a cost issue but annoying to say the least its a great place to go to.

There is a crisp five pound note to the first person that also creates a diesil M14p

Have a slim feeling my money is safe though......:ugh:

Its pricier everywhere now and more charges seem to be on the way so stop moaning about one place and work towards something to stop these Airlines fisting us GA people......


Oh and do buy the dongler a beer aswell........

F.

[slim_slag]

Enjoy the 'cheap' fuel while you can. BA are currently hedging their 2006 fuel at the equivalent of $78/barrel. Expect $100/barrel by mid 2006. Flying is going to become rather expensive.

The traders on NYMEX don't see it that way. Crude oil futures for 2006 are around $61 per barrel. 2007, 8, 9, 10, 11 are around $56 per barrel. BA are probably just hedging a portion of their fuel costs 'just in case' and in any event will be passing on this extra cost to their punters with their sneaky fuel surcharge (which should disappear if BA are correct - yeh right). I'd be more interested in what Ryanair are doing, they have good form on hedging their fuel bills, BA don't. The markets are currently saying fuel will stay high for the forseeable future, but not that much higher than today, and certainly not $100 per barrel.

[Brooklands]

eharding asked
Besides, if WLAC fuel is so expensive, why do Booker seem to have been organising regular "Refuel at Waltham" weekends recently To which the answer is "because the fuel tanks at Wycombe got contaminted by a bad batch of fuel". Apparantly a tanker (ship not road) load which came into Southampton was found to be contaminated (can't remember exactly what with) AFTER it had been delivered to Wycombe and one or two other places. The result was that on a few weekends there was no fuel at Wycombe until the fuel supply company got the tanks cleaned out, so we were all popping over to WW to refuel.

Brooklands

[Re-Heat]

Enjoy the 'cheap' fuel while you can. BA are currently hedging their 2006 fuel at the equivalent of $78/barrel.

The traders on NYMEX don't see it that way. Crude oil futures for 2006 are around $61 per barrel. 2007, 8, 9, 10, 11 are around $56 per barrel.

Jet fuel is a different grade to the WTI future - jet fuel's current market price (not a future) is ~$72/bbl - don't mix the prices of different grades as they are incomparable!

[2Donkeys]

Airlines can't directly hedge Jet Fuel prices since there is no sufficiently liquid market of exchange traded Jet Fuel Futures or Options.

As a result, Jet Fuel is hedged using either OTC (Over the Counter) Derivative products in conjunction with Investment Banks, or more commonly by hedging on closely correlated exchange-traded alternatives such as Heating Oil.

This exposes the airlines to so-called "basis risk"- the risk that the proxy does not move in the same manner as the thing being hedged. However, experience has shown that Heating Oil does act as a remarkably good proxy for Jet A.

Either way, the futures markets continue to indicate a gentle but sustained rise in Jet A prices.

2D

[slim_slag]

2Donkeys/Re-Heat

You are both correct, heating oil is what the airlines use. but..... Captain Airclues used the terms 'equivalent to $78/barrel' and 'expect $100/barrel' so it might be easier to continue in that vein ............. More relevent to this forum is that most of us don't directly purchase Jet A.

[2Donkeys]

You are both correct, heating oil is what the airlines use.

Phew! That's a relief! Looks like I am still up to speed with the day job. :rolleyes:

More relevent to this forum is that most of us don't directly purchase Jet A.

That too is true. However, there is absolutely no direct market on which to hedge the price of AVGAS. Those who need to (and there are a very few) tend to use hedges constructed around crude oil futures and accept the basis risk. Crude Oil price movements remain the largest single component of AVGAS price variations, so that the risk is not particularly extreme.

2D

[slim_slag]

2donkeys,

I'm just an amateur hack, but why wouldn't people use gasoline futures to hedge AVGAS?

[2Donkeys]

The volume of AVGAS produced and consumed globally is absolutely tiny, despite it forming the backbone of our hobby.

As a result, there are very few if any organisations who use significant quantities of AVGAS, and are sophisticated enough to be able to hedge it. When we talk about hedging AVGAS exposure, we are strictly in the realms of the theoretical.

The basis of any hedge where there is no traded market in the product under risk is to find another product which moves broadly in line with the thing you wish to hedge. You are not looking for something which has the same absolute price, only something which moves proportionately the same as your primary product in a strongly correlated fasion.

The primary price consituent of AVGAS is crude oil, and the futures and options markets for Crude are vibrant and easily traded. That makes them a good hedge.

MOGAS prices are subject to all sorts of political interference making them rather less attractive as a hedge. Accordingly the futures and options markets for MOGAS are relatively small. This brings its own problems. As anybody has ever tried to buy or sell something on an illiquid market will tell you, the spread between purchase and sale price will be wide. This constitutes a risk in itself.

2D

[Mariner9]

As 2D's says, the price variation of Avgas broadly follows that of crudes. Somebody mentioned WTI earlier, that is West Texas Intermediate, relevant to Avgas prices in the US, but not (directly) to the UK Avgas market. Ours follows BFO (Brent,Forties,Oseberg) much more closely.

The price of all distillates (eg Gasoil Jet etc) is very high due to a global shortage of refining capacity, and rapidly increasing demand in China and India. The increased refining runs to cope with the demand for distillates has produced a slight surplus of gasolines, and accordingly distillates are now more expensive than gasolines.

Latest prices cif Rotterdam $/ton:

Gasoline 95 RON 551.25
Jet 585.06
Diesel 557.63

[Captain Airclues]

Fuel at White waltham has just gone up to £1.28/litre. (plus £10 fuel surcharge??)

Airclues

[Genghis the Engineer]

Popham now £1.20/litre

Thankfully, I can run my microlights on MOGAS!

G

[FlyingForFun]

And at Cardiff the other week I was charged £1.18 PLUS VAT. That is, unless my memory is playing up.

To tell the truth, I was so shocked at the extortionate total charge that my memory may be playing up.... because as well as a rather high fuel charge, they had also quoted me landing and handling fees excluding VAT, and neglected to tell me about the passenger surcharge fee and the insurance fee. I'm sure when I phoned up and asked them how much it would cost me, I don't remember telling them that I was only interested in half of the fees that they were going to charge me, nor that I wanted the price excluding VAT.......

White Waltham has never been the cheapest place around, but it's always had an atmosphere which makes up for it. It seems to me that the price increases around the country are higher than WW's, bringing WW's prices slightly more in line with the average than they were before?

FFF
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[FlyingForFun]

Ah - advice greatly received, WR, albeit too late!

But, out of interest, what landing fee would the club charge for a twin weighing over 2 tonnes? Wish I'd kept my receipt from signature now for comparison, but I think landing+handling was £45+VAT. The total bill, including 100 litres of fuel, and passenger surcharges for 4 people, came to over £260!!!

FFF
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