Red Stop Bars

[Turn It Off]

You are just leaving stand and cleared to taxi ( or proceed; this applies to vehicle drivers too) to a runway hold. For argument sake we'll call it "hold A1" any airfield that uses this as a runway hold I apologise ( I can think of 1 ) but there is a stop bar illuminated at hold "A 2".

Do you

a) Stop at A2 and say nothing?
b) Taxi to A1, realise the ATC error and continue so you don't upset anyone?
c) Query the stop bar as you approach A2 - with the intention of stopping at A2 if no reclearance received?
d) Query the stop bar as you PASS A2 routing to A1.


I hope i know what the answers will be here but I am intrigued to know the answers that everyone passes. I think that anyone on the site who knows who I am will be able to make an educated guess at what I am getting at - But please do not give me away!!

Regards

TIO

[chiglet]

STOP at A2 and "advise" ATC of your actions.
watp,iktch

[vintage ATCO]

c)

Not us, is it? :D

Had multiple lightning strikes yesterday, various stopbars going on and off afterwards.

[tired]

answer "c", please

[eastern wiseguy]

c




Stop bars are precisely that ...STOP .

[Goldfish Jack]

Dont have my copy of the latest ICAO ATM manual avail, but it says quite cleary there that you may not cross a stop bar under any circumstances, unless the ATC says there is a fault with it and you may disregard it. In all other circumstances, pilots must obey the stop bars and request further insructions.

Where the stop bar is faulty, there should be a vehicle avail to assist you to cross it, as well

[No_Speed_Restriction]

c, but since its cardiff-d:E

[TheOddOne]

Absolutely 'C', no question about it. Especially since this is essentially a runway stop bar.

We have an Alpha 1, 2 & 3 as well. I suspect there might be quite a few about.

At least the failure in this case is fail-safe. The fail-hard case is where the bar disappears and pilots think it's OK to proceed. Any UK system should give a back-indication to the controller as to the corrct status of the bar, even if there's been a control failure.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[Ranger 1]

C without doubt, also never have any worries about causing any upset with ATC as mentioned in answer B. If in doubt call ATC to check it out! :ok:

[LXGB]

Diverging slightly, hypothetical question:

How about a simple red / green traffic light at a runway holding point for control of non-radio vehicles.

If a vehicle is given a positive clearance to cross an active runway at one of these holds on the RT, would you still select the traffic lights to green while they crossed?

Would it be a bit OTT to have to give them a clearance on the RT, then switch the lights to green and then have to watch them until they're past the lights so you can put them on red again.

or

Would it be bad form to instruct a vehicle to go through a red light?

Discuss ;)



LXGB

[Turn It Off]

Would it be bad form to instruct a vehicle to go through a red light?

YES!

[CloggyUK]

It's very simple NEVER cross a red stopbar unless specifically instructed by ATC. The amount of times crews cross a red stop-bar when given a line-up instruction and the controller does not inmediately drops the stop-bar is shocking. If you are given a line-up instruction and the stop bar stays illuminated question the stop-bar. There could be a fault with it that we ATC don't know about. If we drop it and it stays on and a plane crosses it, how are we suppossed to know the thing is broken?

C

[Farrell]

I would stop.....even in my 172!

[Musket90]

Shouldn't an Airfield Operations vehivle escort an aircraft instructed to cross a red stop bar to enter a runway?

[niknak]

No Musket 90, they shouldn't ever cross a red stop bar even if instructed to do so.

Check recent ATSINs.

c is the answer.

LXGB post smacks of Serco ism....:rolleyes:

[vintage ATCO]

Would it be bad form to instruct a vehicle to go through a red light?

Yes, never encourage it. :rolleyes:

[Chilli Monster]

Niknak/VATCO

Before running down LXGB's post bear in mind his scenario will, 99% of the time, concern a Military airfield, with Military Lighting set ups, where the stop bar that we're familiar with is non-existant.

Example:

Lights are red to prevent vehicles crossing runway/taxiway/ any other area protected as such. However, you need an airfield vehicle (ATC landrover for example) to enter the runway to remove some FOD. What you DON'T want is the queue of vehicles at the lights to cross the runway, therefore blocking it for the aircraft you know to be on final.

So - lights stay red for non-R/T equipped vehicles, but R/T equipped vehicle is allowed through the red on a specific clearance. It does happen, and sometimes has to happen.

Think out of the box (and outside your own world) occasionally guys.

LXGB - time you got out of the environment son and came to work in the real world ;)

[Ranger 1]

I had to cross a red stop bar tonight at work twice in LVPS tonight, permission was given over the RT as follows... "Ranger cross the red stop bar at D-1, I say again cross the red stop bar at D-1 & report Runway 27 vacated at Hotel Over " Message read back & Affirm received from ATC before moving off.
Non Radio vehicles & non essential are not permitted on the manoevring area unless under escort at all times.:ok:

[Turn It Off]

No Musket 90, they shouldn't ever cross a red stop bar even if instructed to do so

Technically, not quite correct. An aircraft can be specifically instructed to cross a red stop bar if the stop bar cannot be supressed, there is no alternative routeing available and the aircraft is visible to the controller.

If the above conditions do not exist then a follow me vehicle is required to escort the aircraft passed the stop bar. (CAP168 Appendix 2B - I think)

[This is a crisis]

Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1:

At aerodromes where taxiway stop-bars are used to protect taxiway routes and
runways from inadvertent incursions controllers are not to clear aircraft to cross an
illuminated stop-bar. The inoperable taxiway stop-bar and its associated taxiway
should be withdrawn from service and an alternative routing used. On the occasions
when this is not possible an aircraft may be cleared to cross such an illuminated
taxiway stop-bar subject to the following conditions:
a) The stop-bar cannot be suppressed.
b) The stop-bar and aircraft affected are visible to the aerodrome controller.
c) The phraseology used is to leave the pilot in no doubt that the clearance applies
only to the faulty stop-bar.
d) In the case of illuminated stop-bars protecting the runway aircraft may not be
cleared to cross without the assistance of an aerodrome operations vehicle.
NOTE: The requirement at b) above may be satisfied by the use of an SMR which
has been approved by the CAA for this purpose.

:ok:

[LXGB]

"the real world" What's that then Dad? ;)

LXGB

[Ranger 1]

Sorry in my last post I should of mentioned, to avoid confusion that I was acting as a essential ops/Follow Me vehicle:ouch:

[Max Angle]

Seen rule "D" broken more than once. Totally pointless anyway as far as I can see. You don't require a vehicle to see you past a painted yellow stop bar marker, what's the difference?, you don't pass either without clearance. One is a painted yellow line that can't be switched off and the other is a line of red lights that can't be switched off.

[N5528P]

Shouldn't an Airfield Operations vehivle escort an aircraft instructed to cross a red stop bar to enter a runway?

@ Musket: What for?


How about a simple red / green traffic light at a runway holding point for control of non-radio vehicles.

@ LXGB

A pretty dangerous situation....

1. There should be no conflicting signals - if there is a traffic light in addition to the stopbar, they should be connected and should always show the same message.

2. Why having a traffic light there - colocated with a stopbar? The driver of the non-radio car could also watch the stopbar - could'nt he?

3. Who wants to have a vehicle without radio cintact on the TWY / RWY?

4. Furthermore - I would imagine that a traffic light on a pole is quite an obstacle on the edge of a TWY / RWY.


Regards, Bernhard

[LXGB]

Hi Bernhard,
Re your points...

1. There should be no conflicting signals - if there is a traffic light in addition to the stopbar, they should be connected and should always show the same message.

+

2. Why having a traffic light there - colocated with a stopbar? The driver of the non-radio car could also watch the stopbar - could'nt he?

The scenario I was describing was at an airfield without stopbars. This is a common arrangement at UK military airfields.

3. Who wants to have a vehicle without radio cintact on the TWY / RWY?

Not me! But sometimes "MT Routes" cross runways.
See RAF Gibraltar for a lovely example of a dual carriageway, 2 cycle paths, 2 pedestrian walkways and a military MT Route crossing a runway.

4. Furthermore - I would imagine that a traffic light on a pole is quite an obstacle on the edge of a TWY / RWY.

Don't worry :) , the type I was referring to in my original post is not on a pole. It's at ground level in a frangible box, well clear of the runway.


Another consideration with this type of system is that often one switch controls lights on both sides of the runway, hence the reason for not always wanting to select the lights to green and letting all the waiting traffic, both sides, cross your runway.

I wish I'd never asked the question in the first place now as it seems the only person who seemed to know what I was talking about was Chilli. I guess I could have gone in to more detail, but I couldn't be arsed really. That'll teach me to be think/type out loud.

Hey, here's an idea! how about a military ATC forum? :D :ouch:

Best Regards,
LXGB :ok:

[N5528P]

wish I'd never asked the question in the first place now as it seems the only person who seemed to know what I was talking about was Chilli. I guess I could have gone in to more detail, but I couldn't be arsed really. That'll teach me to be think/type out loud.

@ LXGB

Wrong conclusion - I was able to learn something, so no problem :O

Regrads, Bernhard

[LXGB]

Oh well, worth it after all then :)

Cheers,
LXGB

[Dr. Evil]

Red Stop Bars

Seen any other colors???

Or do you simply mean "active" stop bars? :8 :p := :ok:

No you dont have to reply :)

[Dizzee Rascal]

cleared to line-up, red stop bar lights at CAT II holding point. Queried this, line-up clearance confirmed.....stop bars changed to green.

I didn't think they changed colour but were just switched off to allow the aircraft/vehicle to cross/enter etc. Definitely didn't know they were green...

I think I should re-read my MATS pt 1 again...

[Ranger 1]

News to me as well :confused: