FAA vs JAA IR

[mrjamesgroves]

I read a letter in one of the flying magazines recently, claiming that gaining an FAA instrument rating doesn't save significant money compared to its JAA counterpart. This being the case, why do so many people register aircraft with an N instead of a G? What are the benefits of both systems? I can understand how the FAA IR is only valid on N reg aircraft when flying in the UK. What about flying an N reg aircraft on a JAA IR when in the UK, or even flying an N reg aircraft on a JAA PPL? What are the restrictions placed on the licence, rating and registration of the aircraft?

[bpilatus]

This subject is very hot at the moment. The CAA will be stopping all N reg flying in this country soon. I think it is possible to make some comments to the CAA. So the answer must be to forget about changing your machine to the N reg and no need to do any FAA PPL. I think this is a problem.

Also i think your fact is wrong. My friend flies G reg with FAA/IR license in IMC and IR

[Chilli Monster]

bpilatus - best you get your facts straight before posting
This subject is very hot at the moment. The CAA will be stopping all N reg flying in this country soon.
Wrong - The DfT is looking at ways to prevent, but nothing is cut and dried yet.
Also i think your fact is wrong. My friend flies G reg with FAA/IR license in IMC and IR
Would you like to expand on that? The CAA is prepared to give an IMC rating to a UK licence holder if they hold an FAA IR, subject to certain conditions. They do not however recognise an FAA IR for use in a 'G' reg aircraft in terms of allowing the privileges the rating would bestow if it was used in an 'N' reg aircraft.

The CAA recognises and validates an FAA licence for use in conjunction with a UK registered aircraft anywhere in the world - but only for flights conducted day VFR.

[2Donkeys]

but only for flights conducted day VFR

There is no "day" restriction. But otherwise, we agree.

2D

[bpilatus]

Ok guys I accept better info from the professional ATCOs. My friend has all the ratings FAA/IR/IMC/SEP/MEP. She never has a problem with N reg and IMC in the airways.

How can the CAA give IMC for a FAA/IR! This is below the standard acceptable. But I think it is difficult to tell me that there is not a lot of problems for the N reg guys.

[Julian]

MJG,

The FAA IR will set you back about $7000, or about £3500-4000 depending on what the exchange rate is doing at the time. That price is inclusive of the flight test and licence issue as well. If you find a course that doesnt include the test its about $250-300. The written exam is about $75.

In the Uk an IR is about £12000 and the flight test and licence issue is another couple of k on top of that. You also have to have passed the relevant ATLP exams, so say you have done them all on a distance learning basis about £3000.

The rating itself is considerably cheaper however you also have to look at how long you are going to take to do it and incorpaorate all those costs as well. A few places will do an IR in 2 wks but that can be a lot of flying so would budget for 3 wks

So say

£350 return flight to US
$840 / £470 hotel room based on 21 nights at £40/night.

(Although I do know one course that for $7000 includes all test, accomdation, transfers, etc - in fact everything it seems but the flight over there!!!)

I have not included anything for food or beer as thats something you would have to pay for if you were in the UK anyway. Also not included for shopping as I always tend to go mad over there as prices much cheaper than here in UK forjust about everything :o)

So say for about £5000 you get an IR rating and 3 wks holiday in the US, compared to about £17000 for the JAA IR.

If your intention is to get an FAA IR and convert then you need 15 hours conversion, the flight test and the ATPL exams, so taking that into account and using EFT rates for IR training thats about

£5250 for 15hrs conversion (or £2400 if done in FNPT II)
£2000 flight test
£3000 ATPL exams

Or just about £14250 (£11,400 if sim used for conversion training).

These are ballpark figures and I have assumed you pass everything in minimum hours when quoting prices for both the US and JAA IR.

At end of day it depends if you are going to convert or not. You will still save a few quid and have two IR licences if you do, and the FAA IR is much easier to keep current!

If you just want to do the FAA IR then you will save an absolute shed load.

Obviouslt getting the time off work can be a major issue for some people as well and so have to complete in the UK.

As I said these are only rough figures and its late so someone will probably pick me up for something I have missed but will give you a general idea.

Julian.

[bpilatus]

Julian thanks for your words. Very interestng! I think you have done some research here. I dream about having a CAA/IR and flying in the airways with the jets. I think this course is very difficult and just for the BAA/ EASIJET comercial boys. I like your figure of £14,250 but I think not many pilots can pass the test with minimum hours! 50 SEP 55 MEP. I prefer the N reg IR but this is going soon in the UK airspace. I think 55 hours MEP is £400/hour so that means about £20,000+ Ok some training is possible in the sim. But which guys wants to fly in a sim! With some other fees I say maybe £25,000 for a CAA/IR. Ok so I can by an aeroplane for this! So I see that a FAA/IR is simple and maybe better for pilots here. Any guys getting a CAA/iir must be very rich and have to much time. Then the guys by a Pilatus!
Happy day
Ciao

[S-Works]

bpilatus, where are you getting your figures and facts from, a cornflake box.

As has been pointed out there is no plan to styop FAA IR holders flying airways. There is a subject of discussion about foriegn ownership being restricted but an FAA IR is an ICAO IR.

The cost of a JAR MEP/IR all in as about £14k. My distance learning was £1000. Flight time in a Seneca is £210 per hour.

So:

Theory £1000
Flying £11550
Test £1000

Sim time is available from about £80 per hour which can knock a considerable amount of cost off as well. Doing the rating in a single with just the last 15hrs in the twin will also save money.

Oh and the CAA do not have an IR we have a JAA IR.....

:D

[bpilatus]

I get my info from a very good place! I think a Seneca is more than you say for a CAA/IR pilot instructor as well in the P2. These figures you say are not true. I think that I know more and I say you do not have a CAA/IR and a JAA/IR and everybody always work the cost on basic hours. It take more than basic hours to pass the CAA/IR. The FAA test is very easy and much better for PPL guys. Trainning is very easy for a PPL with IMC. I think no guys on here have a CAA/IR. This is the top.

[S-Works]

bpilatus, I struggled to interpet your last post but I can assure you the prices I quoted are correct as they are what I have been paying!

The FAA IR is easier to achieve than a JAA IR no one is arguing about that. The exams are simpler and the training is cheaper especially if done in the USA.

I am merely questioning your JAA IR costs.

Cranfield Aviation charge £930 plus VAT for the IR Distance learning modules (very nice guys by the way!)

There are a number of companies that will do the training. My friend has just finished his IR With bonus at Cranfield and did it in the 55hrs and passed first time, cost was about 12k. Taylor Aviation at Cranfield are just about to get approval for teaching the IR and are quoting similar prices.

And the point I was making is there is no such thing as a CAA/IR anymore it is all JAR now.

I suggest you check your facts before posting your fiction!

:p

[IO540]

A lot of nonsense in here - even when one can decipher the grammar.

People don't do the FAA IR over the JAA IR to save money on TRAINING. The cost of training (for either) is a pittance compared to

a) the cost of obtaining an aircraft (or access to one) that's well enough equipped, in good enough condition, and legal to fly European airways. Very very few of these about under £100k and they generally aren't rentable.

b) the cost of keeping IFR current in the long term

c) the cost of flying generally

Most people that do the FAA IR are people who have a real job; probably a business of some sort. Somebody earning the NMW isn't going to be doing much flying, never mind achieving a) and b) above. And most people with real jobs and real lives can't do the JAA IR due to time it takes to meet the ground school requirements. Most people that do the JAA IR are airline pilot trainees who have little or no income and plenty of time.

Some planes are not Euro certified and have to be on N.

Some planes can be Euro certified but the particular ones have been fitted with extras (usually good safety extras) which aren't Euro certified and doing so would cost a fortune, so N is the only practical choice.

Most N owners pay dearly for being on N over G. Most things cost more and a lot of small things require expensive paperwork which has to be purchased from a DER, etc. That's the price of being able to fly IFR while having a life.

[englishal]

Its amazing how prices vary....one place down south charge £330 per hour BE76 dual, and £200 / hr for the FNPTII sim.....Their training is good and they achieve very good pass rates.

Another place in Scotland charges about £270 / hr in PA34200T's and £110 / hr for FNPTII....but they also have very good pass rates and people speak highly of them.....

All plus VAT of course.

Its almost worth starting your own company, registering for VAT, doing the training, claiming the VAT back, and then winding up the company. Wonder what the tax rules would say on this?

;)

[bpilatus]

You guys talk the same as me. I say sorry if I am not clear in my expression. I think Bose is confused. But I say one thing more. Some PPL pilots try for the CAA/IR but find life to hard so they change to FAA/IR. FAA/IR is like a IMC certificate in UK. Ok for clouds and things but when I see what these CAA/IR guys have to do for the test o boy. My head hurts just looking at the work. I no you will not like me to say but FAA/Ir just allows a look in the cloud then come back down into IFR. Sorry guys I no you will not like what I say this time. I visit IOW with my friend on Sunday. O boy we have some problems with radio work and traffic and airshows. I say nothing more at the moment!?! I think maybe 2D is working and he give us a hard time.

[Send Clowns]

Remember Julian's figures for converting an FAA IR are for minimum hours. Don't expect to pass in minimum hours if you come back with a fresh FAA IR! That is not what the 15-hour course was designed for - it was designed for experienced foreign-registered pilots doing a conversion having used their overseas IRs subsequent to training. You will find this track rarely saves money overall - I have known of many, going through our school and others. I know someone who took the whole JAA IR course even having an FAA IR!

[dublinpilot]

bpilatus,

Why is it only in the last month, that your English has deteriorated so much? 2 Donkeys post on the other thread, seems to have had a serious effect on your language skills. Before that, you seemed to be fluent in English.

:rolleyes:

[Julian]

Yep as Clowns says and I pointed out originally, all my hours quoted are the absolute minimums! So for the FAA if you bust the 42 hours allowed in the course the training school I used charges then your have to pay $125/hr for the extra training ($95 for an IFR 172 SP and $35 for instructor).

This will obviously be more if you bust your hours in the uk where its much more an hour so its a good idea as well to use your IR in the US for a bit before you take the JAA IR and get used to what is required. When I passed me and a mate (who also had just got his IR), used to fly together until we felt comfortable.

To look at it another way, you end up with 2 licences for the price of one so doing the FAA IR before your JAA is still a good move and also good experience.

I want to undertake the JAA IR but cost is an issue at the moment :(

Julian

[topcat450]

I no you will not like me to say but FAA/Ir just allows a look in the cloud then come back down into IFR

O boy we have some problems with radio work

:) The phrase 'no sh:mad:t sherlock' springs to mind.

Mind you, no matter how hard you think the radio work was - the controllers would've had a tougher time trying to decypher your mumblings. :ok:

[nouseforaname]

I think people get really wound up about what kind of training you have done and what certificate you have or what test you past 10 years ago perhaps...

as far as i can see boys and girls the pilot that practices the most will be the more profficient pilot.

There are more aircraft by a vast majority on the 'N' reg than any other reg in the world. And they can't very well say no 'N' reg flying in the UK what are they going to say to United Airlines?! sorry we don't think your good enough?

[bpilatus]

dublinpilot of course I am not the same person. The first person on here is my friend. So I see you do not think I say the truth to you. Well you have to like it my friend. I agree with Send Clowns the numbers are minimum numbers. Only very good pilot can pass this test in minimum hours. Ok you guys are clever guys but I try hard on my english. Why you want to say those bad things about me. You are the same guys who talk bad about Whirlygirls trip to France!?! Come on guys you can give me a break I try very hard to have a conversation with Pprune guys. If I have a hard time here I go to Flyer forum. This is not my choice

[S-Works]

Bye then.....:D

[Kyprianos Biris]

FAA vs JAA IR

I read a letter in one of the flying magazines recently, claiming that gaining an FAA instrument rating doesn't save significant money compared to its JAA counterpart. This being the case, why do so many people register aircraft with an N instead of a G? What are the benefits of both systems? I can understand how the FAA IR is only valid on N reg aircraft when flying in the UK. What about flying an N reg aircraft on a JAA IR when in the UK, or even flying an N reg aircraft on a JAA PPL? What are the restrictions placed on the licence, rating and registration of the aircraft?


I did the FAA PPL ME IFR (in USA instead of EUR) for two simple reasons regardless of the costs invloved :

1. My country's CAA allows national reg. aircraft to be flown with FAA IR license as long as its not commercial activity.

2. USA was the only place on the globe where I could take 3 weeks off work and by training intensivelly every day, achieve an IFR rating by the end of this period. I lost my summer 2004 vacations but it was certainly worth it ;-)

The (total) cost was not significantly cheaper from the Europe option but, as I said, that was not my issue. I simply could not leave work for more than 4 weeks.

I had already a UK PPL ME IMC and the past flying experience did count towards less flying hours requirements on the IFR course.

[dublinpilot]

If I have a hard time here I go to Flyer forum.

Why do I have such a strong feeling, that that is where you came from?

I could be wrong, but I've a sneaking suspicion that you're a regular over there.

dp

[nouseforaname]

The FAA route toward flying including the private, IR, Commercial and ATP is far more straight forward and to the point.

For instance, I want to be able to fly a single engine turbine aircraft in the coming months and to do this I have to get a FAA private. Because the JAR private limits me to SEP land instead of just SE Land. It's ridiculous the way we have to put up with this rubbish. I'm not american but america is a well set up country

[bpilatus]

Yes I think the FAA/IR is much better for the PPL guys here. Some guys do this in 2 weeks. But the FAA/IR guys fly on autopilot in the cloud I think!?! 2 weeks to get the IR is like the same for a IMC here in uk. Not good for serious long distance journey. Just have a look in the cloud for a moment then back down for vfr. Ok I here you boys do not like my stile. But I speak the truth-YES

[Fuji Abound]

"Ok I here you boys do not like my stile. But I speak the truth-YES"

- Back so soon - I thought you had gone. Piers and walks come to mind :D

[Chilli Monster]

But the FAA/IR guys fly on autopilot in the cloud I think!?! If you've got it - use it. SOP for single pilot ops is use the autopilot when you can if you have it.
2 weeks to get the IR is like the same for a IMC here in uk. I did mine in 3 weeks, and that was as an IMC holder (I was doing commercial at the same time). The guy who taught me was a JAR instructor who taught to JAR standards and equipped people to fly in European airspace. My experiences don't bear up what you say
Not good for serious long distance journey. Just have a look in the cloud for a moment then back down for vfr. Umm, must remember that the next time I'm flying a 3 or 4 hour journey IFR - what utter cr@p (which is the same as most of the weather I tend to fly in ;) )Ok I here you boys do not like my stile. But I speak the truth-YES
Actually you speak the truth - NO. In fact, it's patently obvious you haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Go back to playing with the kids in the playground sonny and come back when you have a bit more of a clue ;)

[englishal]

Yea, I have used Auto-pilot in the cloud....what a shock horror revalation. I'm sorry to admit, I have also shot an auto-pilot coupled GPS approach into Columbia (California), and popped out bang lined up with the runway.....

Both of which I wouldn't have been able to do here, as a) it is unlikely you'll find a working autopilot and GPS in a training aircraft (unless paying £330 per hour), and b) as there are not a lot of GPS approaches around these parts...

Damn, I've bitten. I promised myself I wouldn't bite at the obvious wind up. Oh well ;)

[OVC002]

bpilatus' sub Harry Enfield Stavros impression was mildly amusing, but certainly only for a couple of posts.

Given the immature and inconsistent application of the characterisation, I would suspect the hand of a hapless individual, who, having decided to go the JAA route to the IR, recognises the futility of it all, and strives for self justification through an alter ego, making all the same unpoints he made before self-realisation dawned, but in fractured and ever so amusing forrinner ingerlishe - viz - bpilatus.

His sorry story would start a good thread.

Come on bpilatus old chap, get it off your chest. I promise you'll feel better.

[bpilatus]

Sorry guys I try a little harder. Now which of you guys needs advice!

Why all you guys very serious. You no smile. Ok I smile all day. I like my flying not like you crasy guys who just talk about it. Ok then you send me to Flyer guys www. I go there and tell them about my info on JAA/IR

[IO540]

bpilatus

You spent WAY too much time on the internet. Have you just got ADSL in your village? It's wonderful isn't it? A tip if I may: alt.multimedia.erotica is a LOT better than Pprune.

Anyway:

It is quite impossible to get a genuine FAA IR in two weeks (written+flying) - assuming the student is at the PPL level.

A good current aircraft-owner IMCR pilot with hundreds of hours can certainly do it in 2 weeks of training, assuming he's got the written out of the way first. The written can be swatted up in 2 weeks too but if one has a life to live it takes considerably longer.

Of course one could equally say one cannot get a genuine IMC in 15 hrs of flight training.

One also cannot get a useful (for going places) PPL in 45 hours.

[Julian]

Heehee had to laugh at EA response regarding state of aircraft in UK :D

But seriously I have flown some really nice aircraft over there for not alot of money. I am going over later this yr to CA and they should (hopefully) have a couple of glass cockpit Diamond Twinstars online. They had just got some glass cockpit, full IFR, 182s last time I was there but didnt get chance to play in one but they were $180/hr!! Bloody marvellous when to think I was paying £120/hr for a knackered old PA28 at my last club!

Julian

[Send Clowns]

nouseforaname

Did you look at completing a High-Performance Aircraft course and a type rating (or class rating, if appropriate)? Perfectly possible to fly a single-engine turbine on a JAA PPL.

[IO540]

Out of my price range but one can fly a bizjet on a PPL. One needs an IR not for legal but for practical reasons and also because nobody will do the type rating without it.

[nouseforaname]

Send Clowns,

you can do a turbine rating but you won't need it to fly the aircraft i'm trying to fly.

Also with the JAR PPL you have to keep the turbine rating current. Such a load of rubbish for someone that does 300+ hrs a year private flying.

And for the rest of you that condone the FAA IR...go a good little story.

Not to long ago a flew in a B200 G-reg with a JAR trained pilot who was banging on about how much better the JAR IR was. He had been flying for about 6 years and he was still in a B200, my cousin lives in america. 5 years ago he couldn't taxi a plane now he's a co-pilot on a G5 with over 2000TT. Need i say any more...

and pilatus....or whatever. Duck into clouds and back down to VFR eh! I did a 3hr airways ifr trip and landed a night in 2000m vis and light rain/drizzle. Eat your heart out mate you wasted your money.

[nouseforaname]

the other thing is the US type ratings are just as hard as the instrument rating test. That is where they bring it up to the same testing standard of the JAR route.

If you ask me the route to get back from FAA to JAR is to get to FAA ATP level and then convert back...think you only have to do 2 exams and then the flying test. Lot easier than 14!

[Send Clowns]

nouseforaname

What I meant was that you can fly it on your JAA PPL, but need an HPA course and either a class rating or type rating, depending on type. That is very sensible, considering the performance and capabilities of turbo-props. That is I think a plus point for JAA.

Good little story? What is the point of it?

I helped train a guy who is 20 years old and is now on a type-rating course for a 747-200F. That's after flying for 4 years, now holding a JAA frozen ATPL, with about 300 hours logged. So what is your point? Maybe your friend likes Beech 200s? I'd rather fly that than the Gulfstream, simply because of where I'd like my career to go.

The money is not wasted. The training for the JAA licence is tough, many who hold FAA IRs with some hours flying IFR find it challenging to complete in 15 hours. It is certainly harder to achieve overall than the FAA rating. Yes an FAA IR is very useful and is itself challenging, but if you think it is as good then you are fooling yourself. No-one I know with both says they are equivalent, although there are some advantages to an FAA IR, not really applicable to the UK.

[bpilatus]

Nouse i think you also have a problem with you're english. What point you try and make! You crasy guy for flying 3 hours with a FAA/IR. You have a joke maybe I think.

15 hrs for a JAA/IR from a FAA/IR I think this never happen in the uk. These guys talk a lot of rubish. I think it takes these guys 50 hrs.

[nouseforaname]

No problem with my english mate I just type fast because I have a job which requires me to work unlike yours it seems.

The skill level of JAA IR pilots is probably more uniform because the FAA route is so much easier.

Saying you wasted your money is probably wrong because I didn't realise you were someone who is in aviation for a living.

You saying you would rather fly a B200 than a G5 for a living just sums you up mate

I know a B200 co-pilot and my cousin a G5 co-pilot lives there so lets compare the salary.

GV co-pilot $90k pa

B200 co-pilot $30k pa

So another little example...you carry on being a B200 pilot in england with all your JAA stuff and i'll be a G5 pilot on FAA reg. with all my FAA stuff and in 10 years time i'll buy a B200 and you can fly my rich arse around in it!!!!!

[bpilatus]

Nouse yes you type fast but you no type any sense. Slow down and start talking something that we understand. What point you trying to make. I am a mate! No I think I am only a friendly guy with those guys who have a JAA/IR. I say sorry to you. One day you may be able to reach high standard of flying. I think you no like a straight talking guy like me!

[englishal]

The best way to train for a JAA ticket via the FAA route is to do the FAA training to JAA procedures and tolerances. My mate did FAA CPL/IR and converted at PAT at EGHH, with a first time pass, in about 17 hours, 10 of which were in the Sim. It's the single needle tracking and NDB stuff which is the main difference, but so long as this is covered in your FAA training, then it shouldn't be too different.

If I were to convert to JAA, I'd go to the states, do 20 hours or so conversion, banging out the JAA stuff at $100 per hour in the sim, using all of the EGHH profiles, then come back and convert hopefully in minumums.....But I would rather be a co-pilot in a G5 anyday.....
;)

[Julian]

A mate of mine did the FAA IR, went home and completed in the 15 hours. He is now flying A320s for about the past 3 months.

From talking to people who have done both it seems to be all swings-and-roundabouts. The FAA IR has parts which JAA dont cover and likewise, for instance they can have you shoot a GPS approach in the FAA IR, I dont believe that is the case in JAA land. I had also heard that the JAA IR is a lot of single needle tracking. I dont know if anyone has actually sat down and listed the differences?

Also, dont forget the oral exam in the FAA IR, you can learnt things parrot fashion for your writtens but the examiner will crucify you on the oral so you have to know your onions or you wont even get as far as the flight test.

All this arguing about which is better than the other is irrelevant and to be honest amongst my mates who have done conversions, doesnt hold any water!!!
Do it, use it, enjoy it!

Julian.

[bpilatus]

I think you get a friendly examiner with the FAA guys drop him some bucks and hey you get the IR while you have a drink of cofee/ Forget about any tricky flying stuff.

I think the CAA guys are a bit more tricky and they say hey you student guys you do all this test to a very strict time. You tell me what time you get to the waypoint I give you 2 mins flexibility. I see everybody say how easy the CAA/IR is but I see none of these guys have a CAA/IR. This get me very confused. You go to these training places they say the FAA/IR is same as iMC!

[Send Clowns]

Ah, no nouseforaname, I see your problem, where you are making your error. It sums you up! You are more interested in money than in actually having a job you enjoy. That is fine. However you cannot assume everyone is ass avaricious as you are.

I changed from a potentially very lucrative career in the oil industry (I could have been on well over US$90k by now, especially with today's oil price) to aviation so I could enjoy the job, not for the money. Hence I would rather get some experience on an aircraft that couldlead to some buch flying in Africa (what I really want, but according to my contacts hard to get at the moment without some time on type, and they use Kingairs out there).

However if I did want a lot of money, flying a 747 at 300 hours sounds a reasonable way of doing it. I am sure by the time he is as old as the chap you know (I hesitate to accuse you af having friends, since that outburst) my friend and former student will be on well over 75,000 Euros. How many people with US licences fly commercial jets with 2-300 hours? It's quite common with a JAA licence.

Of course I would only fly your rich arse around in a B200 briefly, as then I would use the experience to go and do something more interesting, with people who were not quite so arrogant and unpleasant.

(what kind of person says "...just sums you up mate" to someone they never met? When what supposedly sums me up is nothing nasty, just my own private preference? That really is nasty. Especially then to go on to assume money is the only important thing in the world. Ever looked at your values, nouse?)

Julian

You can't expect to pass the JAA exams learning things "parrot fashion". I teach for them, and have had enough students try. There is just too much information; if you try to learn it by rote, without understanding, then you really struggle to pass.

I like the US system of a strong oral test, but I have taught more than one student with a US ATPL who has had great difficulty with the JAA written exams, even having been warned they were more difficult they could not believe how much they had to understand. One was completely unable to do calculations I would expect of a JAA PPL holder, and required by their exams. And yes, that is an FAA ATPL, not CPL.

[bpilatus]

So you a clever guy Send Clown. So you tell me if FAA/IR is like a IMC! The same standard yes!

[Flying Tooth Driller]

"So you tell me if FAA/IR is like a IMC! The same standard yes!"

I don't remember that IMC rating holders have to fly an ILS to a 200' minimum.

I don't think an IMC rating demands flying approaches partial panel.

Take a look at the FAA Practical Test Standards book and compare it with the couple of sides of LASORS devoted to the IMC rating.

You are talking complete and utter rubbish!

The FAA concentrate on getting you to fly the aeroplane properly, and the written and oral tests are on relevant subjects. No one suggests that on completion of the rating, you are ready to take your ATPL! What you should be able to do on passing, is fly IFR safely in the system. Flying for long journeys in cloud is not likely to be attempted by an intelligent person a day after passing, having only had comparatively few hours in training - any more than one would with a mint JAA IR. Experience must be acquired over time.

What the FAA doesn't do is waste time on anal theory that is of no use other than for taking an exam.

[Send Clowns]

No, I wouldn't say that - it is definitely harder than the IMC rating. And I wouldn't say that FAA examiners are open to corruption, never met an FAA pilot who didn't earn the licence.

However the FAA IR is not to the same standard as the JAA IR - it can't be, the requirements are not so stringent. The only additional requirement I know of other than the oral is the GPS, which is not difficult - no harder than basic VOR tracking. Of course it can be done to JAA standards as has already been pointed out by englishal, but if you do so then do the conversion you save little on the other route - do the JAA in the first place. I believe it has been tried by a certain school in the UK, and most people did not save money. They gave up the scheme.

[IO540]

We have the FAA IR, which takes a certain amount of effort to get, and we have the JAA IR, which takes a lot more effort to get.

This has led many people to suggest the FAA IR is not good enough for the job, but that is just dubious logic. It's a standard trap: if A < B that doesn't mean that A is not good enough for the purpose.

The European IR is harder simply because here in Europe everything is gold plated, in the name of "safety".

The FAA has (of the order of) 50x to 100x more PPL/IR pilots flying than the whole of Europe put together, so it is plain daft to think "we" know something they don't.

Some people have been looking very hard indeed for stats supporting an assertion that the FAA regime is less safe (especially the DfT, recently) but they haven't found anything!

[englishal]

the FAA require the candidate to demonstrate competency in executing a partial panel non-precision instrument approach. JAR only requires a demonstration of partial panel basic attitude instrument flying and unusual attitude recovery.

[2Donkeys]

There is no question that the FAA IR is considerably cheaper and easier to obtain than the JAA IR.

You can pick and choose parts of the test that appear to support the argument.

For every FAA Partial Panel NPA, there is another area where the standards are more lax. Take the ILS maximum needle deflection for example. JAA 0.5, FAA 0.75.

This misses the point though. The objective of the FAA IR is to get people into the IFR system at a relatively early stage in the Pilot careers. Like any new pilot with a new licence, they are expected to exercise a degree of self-discipline and for the mostpart, they do.

Later on in their flying careers their instrument skills are revisited again in the FAA ATP flight test. This test is conducted almost wholely on instruments to standards rather more exacting than the JAA IRT.

There is a lot of merit to this approach. By contrast the JAA IR seems designed to accomplish the FAA ATP flight test goals all in one step, often with a student with as little as 200-300 hours total time. The result inevitably is that many schools cut corners. I can think of one in particular where its successful IFR graduates only know how to fly to Cambridge and Coventry. They are familiar with just 5 IAPs on the planet, and when asked to flight plan via airways to a "real" destination, they are lost.

Comparing the FAA and JAA IRs is a classic case of swings and roundabouts. Anybody who tries to paint a one-sided picture in favour of either flavour has an axe to grind.

2D

[nouseforaname]

I'm not saying that money is the most important thing in the world.

Send Clowns as much as your going to think i'm reaaaaaaaaaaaaaly nasty for saying this...it does actually sum you up, your not a driven person. Now don't throw your toys out of your pram because that is exactly what i would interpret by your post.

I quite like employing people like you...want to know more pm me:)

[bpilatus]

I think we can agree that the theory is a lot more thorough with the JAA. Albeit some of the information pushes the boundary of what could be thought of as useful, it is nevertheless comprehensive on law and met. Both are important subjects to understand.

I believe the flying IR tests are quite different. The FAA test appears to be a practical IFR sortie, the JAA a simulation of a public transport flight with an alternate. I'm not sure it is wholly appropriate to compare the two, like for like.

One thing is for sure. The JAA flying test can not be accomplished with 2 weeks training. 2 months is a more likely minimum. Many students take much longer. My experience of the FAA/IR is limited to what a well known JAA/IR instructor (farts like a rhino) says. Having taught thousands (my estimate) of students he equates the FAA/IR to an IMC. This might be partly to do with the conversion process and the difficulty of understanding the concept of the IR test here. Whatever the reason FAA students are not rated very highly by him. He willingly recalls a number of examples of pilots who haven't been able to cut the ice here but have obtained a FAA/IR in a couple of weeks.

I think the last point to note is the flying examination process in the States seems to be fundamentally different. Here the CAA appoint examiners and they have rigid guidelines. The situation in the States seems a little more relaxed without the same degree of control. As 2D rightly points out the FAA ATPL is quite a different thing and not to be confused with the PPL/IR guys.

My english teacher worked wonders last night!

[Flying Tooth Driller]

Another recent addition to the FAA IR is the requirement to demonstrate the use of the autopilot (if fitted). This is a great idea, as single pilot IFR without autopilot use can be more stressful than is necessary!

The IMC rating does have high standards, but if you are going to fly on instruments in cloud, you have to reach a high standard on both sides of the Atlantic - or you end up in a spiral dive :-( The minima are higher in approaches, but flying on instruments means you either do it properly or not at all.

[nouseforaname]

Pilatus your dead right.

The way I look at it is that with the FAA examiners it's their business. They are like self employed people. If they fail to many people then instructors won't send thier students too them, if they pass to many people the FAA will come down on them.

Whereas the JAA examiners don't have to worry weather or not you pass or not. It's a rather unethical to give someone an IR ticket with regard to your own business reputation.

The FAA IR works for ME it lets me do everything I want to do with aviation. I bet you never thought you would hear me say this but...

if i was to have my FAMILY flying around in England/Europe in an aircraft I would perfer the pilot to be JAR qualified but the aircraft on an N reg.

[OVC002]

bpilatus

you made more sense in your Stavros "Hello peeps" guise.

A number of knowledgeable posters have explained why FAA/IR is not = UK IMC.

By denigrating the US rating your instructor is simply trying to help you to rationalise your decision to spend your money in JAAland. It says little for your powers of perception to be unable to recognise that.

This one has been done to death, but it will run and run as long as those who have chosen the hair shirt route need to seek self-validation for their decision.

2D's said it all.

Last time.

And the time before that etc.

[2Donkeys]

It would be a mistake to put JAA IR graduates on a pedestal.

The theoretical knowledge that a JAA IR pilot should have will be streets ahead of his FAA counterpart. On weather in particular, this can make a big difference. The FAA pilot is taught which charts tell you what you need to know, the JAA candidate is really taught to understand the weather from first principles. You can make arguments in favour of either approach.

But when it comes to flying, the big JAA schools are production lines preparing people for the IRT and little else. This often means teaching pilots the "tricks" that CAAFU wants to see, and familiarising them with just the few test routes and approaches like to be encountered.

Candidates frequently emerge successful from the test without a clue how to file a real enroute IFR flightplan. They don't understand slots, Eurocontrol, the SRD or the myriad other details vital for flying "in the system" in Europe. They have to pick those up on the fly.

Most going through those schools are scraping every penny together to get the ticket with a view to future employment. The hard earned skills rapidly deteriorate through lack of use, shortly after passing the test. I'm guessing we all know a few JAA IRs that fall into that category.

In a perfect world, the ground exams would be decluttered, the UK IRT would look more like the FAA IRT, and CAAFU would administrate the flight tests.

All of this would be achieved at US aircraft rental prices.

Like I say, Swings and Roundabouts. There is no "better" or "best".

2D

[bpilatus]

2D, I suspect the JAA production lines (albeit with the drawbacks you descibe) provide a better grounding than someone trying the system out with a FAA ticket (having obtained the rating abroad). The rating merely gives a punter the right to try out controlled airspace. There is no substitute for experience.

I agree there is no 'better or best' but there are significant differences (mentioned above). Individuals can draw their own conclusions. Having said that the FAA offers a far more practical route into controlled airspace. Of that there is (surely) no debate.

OVC- the instructors flying tales are simply humorous tales recounted in the bar. Money wasn't an issue so he wasn't trying to rationalise any decision for my benefit.

[Julian]

2D sums up perfectly for me! Swings and roundabouts is a good analogy.

Nouse, what complete cr@p! I take it your family will only be flying between Cambridge and Coventry then? At least they will then be safe! :rolleyes: God help them if they ever get on a Dleta or American Airlines flight, evil N Reg. Give me a break....:\

[IO540]

Comparing the FAA and JAA IRs is a classic case of swings and roundabouts. Anybody who tries to paint a one-sided picture in favour of either flavour has an axe to grind.

If being a pilot and wishing to be able to fly IFR around Europe amounts to having an "axe to grind" then I agree.

If drawing attention to the FAA having an order of magnitude more PPL/IR pilots under it than the rest of planet earth put together, without problems, amounts to an "axe to grind" then I also agree.

There is no need to do a JAA ATPL to learn about weather. One can attend a very focussed 3-day course on this, showing how one can use internet sources (i.e. real 21st century stuff) to form a practical picture.

[Fuji Abound]

Debating the quality of a professional exam is a dangerous game.

Not only might you want to ask your Doctor, solicitor, accountant etc from which University their degree was awarded but you would also like to know what percentage marks they achieved above the pass rate. I guess in the same way some of us do just enough to convince the examiner we should be given our VFR, IMC or IR rating, and others pass with flying colours, whatever the country of origin. Rightly all the punters and usually the candidates know is that you passed.

I remember well being told and I am sure it is true of any qualification - ok you have passed, now you start to really learn!

[2Donkeys]

Whenever this debate comes up - and it comes up a lot - it is interesting that of those posters I can identify, many have neither an FAA nor a JAA IR, and yet have formed extremely strong views on the merits of one over the other.

A view based on which one you might perceive to be easier/cheaper/more practical to get is one thing - but it shouldn't be confused with a critical evaluation of the ratings themselves.

2D

[Send Clowns]

Nouse

Emplyment? Check your PMs. No offense taken - I am driven, but not by money or speed!

[Davidt]

No one has yet mentioned the proposal which came out a few months ago of a PPL IR(as a sort of half way house between an IMC and the present IR). I havent seen any more about it since, is it a dead duck or still on the cards?

[justsomepilot]

That proposal is dead and always has been, more or less. The IMC Rating works well in the UK, and nothing short of a full IR will ever get agreement among EU member states.

[Justiciar]

Wasn't there some proposal from EASA (of all places) for an IMC type qualification to attach to the new pan european sports licence they are proposing?

[Field In Sight]

I did the FAA IR route and then converted to a JAA license.

The FAA exams are a lot easier than the JAA ATPL's, but they prepare you much more for IFR flying as the information is much more relevant.

The FAA training generally prepares you as well as JAA training. You need to be able to think ahead, fly accurately and multi-task. Skills that only come from practice, practice, practice.

The FAA system makes the partial panel flying section harder as you have to perform an approach, not just climb/turn/fly level etc.
The JAA system emphasises the use of NDB's including holds and approaches.

The test standards are almost identical in regards to altitude/speed/tracking maintenance.

Personally I found the FAA test more difficult, mainly because it wasn't a definate format as I was only given my flightplan on calling up the clearance delivery. Whereas on the JAA test I knew that I would fly a sid, do an NDB hold, fly an NDB approach, go-around, have an engine failure, do some manoeuvring and then do a single engle ILS and go-around to circle to land.

I did the JAA conversion in minimum hrs, so it is possible.

The hardest thing about the IR test is the lack of practice before doing the test.
This is were the lower cost's in the US really pay off. You can practice with a friend acting as your safety pilot for as little as 40-50 quid an hour in a single, with no landing/approach fee's. You can have almost 10 hrs extra practice for the price of going 1hr over in a twin in the UK.

In my opinion the FAA IR gives you equal skills to the JAA IR. To fly IFR in the UK though requires more practice at NDB work and also an appreciation of the slight differences in RT. These things also need to be appreciated if you are going to fly using the IMC rating privileges based on your FAA IR. This doesn't imply that the FAA IR is equivalent to the IMC rating though.

I also have the "No instrument instruction" restriction removed from my FI rating and the course was only 5 hrs long, so it show's you the amount of training instructors need to teach the superior JAA IR.

Whichever one people do, if you pick a reasonable school then you will get good training whichever system you train under.

FIS.

[pilotbear]

Well there is a lot of rubbish on this forum. I have both FAA and JAA and for that matter Canadian ATPL/IR. There is no difference woth worrying about between the IR for any. The JAA groundschool is a ridiculous beaurocracy to make money. The FAA is much more practical and with the Oral makes sure you have learned your stuff.
The FAA IR concentrates on not relying on the AI, something which I find disturbing in the JAA. It makes you understand what the combined performance instruments are telling you.
I am also a CRI/IRI and the ability of people coming for recurrent/checkouts who cannot fly partial panel is frankly scarey. I have the AI covered up as much as possible when teaching IR.
The Canadian IR seems to combine the two in the best possible way.
The UK IMC is a get out of trouble rating and that is all, if you are going to use it for anything else get more training!

:ok:

[IO540]

The UK IMC is a get out of trouble rating and that is all, if you are going to use it for anything else get more training!

which isn't a big deal, and one gets super privileges for serious getting about the UK.

There is NO statistical data showing the IMCR to be unsafe. If there was, you can be sure the CAA would jump on it.

For many, the most limiting thing about IFR in the UK is the lack of IAPs.

The PPL/IR is mostly about European touring, where it is essential if one wishes to do pre-planned flights on the planned day.

[West Coast]

What an eye opener for me. I never knew my FAA IR was inferior. Glad I didn't know that doing VOR approaches with low ceilings into mountainous airports in Montana at night. Same for toodling down tornado alley in the midwest or landing at the busiest aiport in the world during a snow storm. Many times, no AP, or off for practice.

If only I had learned astro navigation, I would be safe.....

You need to ask, what is the motivation of someone like Clowns to tell you his system is better, looking for students perhaps? The proof is in the pudding.

[youngskywalker]

Well said! :ok:

But didnt you know that the British CAA re-invented the wheel when it comes to flying?!

And I'm presuming that when your average American Airlines Captain flying his Boeing into Heathrow everyday really struggles with the complex procedures...yeah he must do I guess :bored: