Wow it really sucks up here!

[Glorified Donkey]

Doesn't it suck to read about 18 yr olds sitting as F/O on a 747 with 26yr olds commanding. God Canada really sucks, you'll be lucky here if you can get off of the ramp at 26 and into an airplane. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Im surprised theres no PPC required to work the ramp!

[WJman]

What exactly are you refering to? I'll also ask you to watch the "Canada sucks" comment. It's a great country and Canada is around the corner.
I've also never seen or heard of an 18 year old 747 F/O.

[Lost in Saigon]

Youngest Airline Captain thread (Far East)

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=179779

[shake rattle n roll]

Who cares about his age....if he can do the job, then good on him...obviously he can so that's why he is where he is....as for Canada sucks...well that is your opinion, as a country I reckon it is the best......as far as commercial aviation goes, I might even agree with you...however there are operators out there looking for pilots right now as long as you are prepared to relocate. Keep an eye on Iceland.

[STC]

18 year olds in command of a 747? You won't see me in line to get on board. Personally I think that story is BS.

As far as those 26 year olds commanding 737s at Ryanair, well….I guess you get what you pay for. I wonder what kind of cut of your 2 dollar fare the pilot gets. Some paperboys collect more money from customers.

[Glorified Donkey]

STC, if you read the post its an 18 yr old F/O not captain. Im willing to relocate but every where demands you do a license conversion. Its like an ICAO license is worthless. I didn't mean Canada as a country sucks, but the aviation industry in Canada sucks, I don't even know why someone from another country would want to come here to fly, it would have to be really really bad in their home country.

[STC]

Ohhhhhh....an 18 year old F/O. That's different...NOT. Do you really think it should be commonplace to have an 18 year old in such a position of responsibility?

Those are the years where a pilot should be gaining experience that would develop his skills and judgement.

If I was informed (as a passenger) that the 747 that I was about to strap in to and launch across the ocean was jockied by an 18 year old (in any seat) I would step off.

You don't have to agree with me. Just wave to me as you fly over with a severely reduced level of safety.

[Glorified Donkey]

Will do! hehehe :p just Kidding.

[smo]

18 in right seat of a 747? If it is true, great for him but I have doubts. The only way really, to get into the right seat of that kind of equipment fresh out of school is you get hired into an airline with their own flight academy, which many airlines in Europe have(as you can see from my spelling and grammar, I did not even go to school, period!). But most of those places have a 18 year min age requirement to get in and the programs are 2 or 3 years long.

The only way you'd get into that position is if your daddy is a Sultan and bought you the plane (has happened!).

[Speedbird eh!]

From my vast research and having experienced the airline industry in 5 different countries, I would like to point out that "Glorified Donkey" has an EXTREMELY valid point. He might not have expressed it in the diplomatic way as most staunch
patriotic Canadians in this forum would have liked it, but he does make a VERY valid point. I believe it is valid points like his/hers, we should question rather than criticise and fire back with frivolous comments.

From my experience working with 7 different airlines and having spoken to hundreds of pilots, I do believe Canada has a bit of a problem for young people who would like to pursue a career in aviation. Now before you go and fire away angry replies (which
some of you already have done so) you have to firstly understand that Canada has an ailing Airline Industry. Our main Carrier AC alone has never made a profit, with the exception of the time they sold their aircraft and leased them for that fiscal year (talk about a loop hole in the books). Now because the airline has always been in the red, they have never had the opportunity to create a sponsored cadet program such as the ones they have in Europe, Asia, Africa and Australasia.

In Europe, a lot of airlines at one point or another have opened up a cadet program for anyone above the age of 18. They still do exist and open up the scheme when they feel a shortage of pilots will exist in the near future. These airlines have opened up such schemes because the cost of obtaining a commercial licence in Europe is quite
prohibitive. The cost of obtaining a JAA frozen ATPL in Canada (Moncton Flying College) is just over 100,000 Canadian Dollars (and this is a GREAT fee compared to what other European pilot colleges offer). But to obtain a Canadian CAA license is roughly 35,000 CDN. This cost is not as prohibitive and has created a larger pool of pilots than our aviation industry can take.

Now having said all this, Australasia, Africa, Middle East, Asia (not sure about South America) have had their main carriers create cadet sponsored programs. The cost of obtaining a commercial licence in a lot of these countries are not prohibitive and in some cases are cheaper than in Canada, yet their Airlines DO have these schemes, to help young people get a commercial licence and guide them to become pilots in their airlines. This is something I feel Canada is missing and airlines in Canada such as 'Air Canada' and 'West Jet' rely on the fact that people from the military and those who have had thousands of hours from other ways, to apply and become pilots for them. In some cases, you need internal referees to even be considered to apply. Personally I think this is preposterous and only encourages friends of people in the airline to apply, rather than open the jobs to the open market for people who could have better qualifications.

I do resent the comment that a lot of you have said regarding the fact that you would not feel safe in boarding an aeroplane if the pilot was 18 or really young. Mind you, I have never met a First Officer who is 18 years of age yet, but I have met pilots as young as 19 years of age and they come from the TOP airlines in Europe, Asia, Middle East and Australasia. These young pilots came from Cathay Pacific, Emirates Airlines, Qatar Airways, KLM, British Airways, Qantas and many more. All these airlines have an excellent safety records and not only are most of them making profits, but are world renowned for their impeccable service and diversity in hiring many different nationalities. Some of these top airlines have operated cadet schemes since the early seventies (if not earlier) and have maintained their impeccable safety record. STS, I do resent you comment regarding the Ryan air pilot who is 26 years of age and the fact that you were getting a young pilot for the service you paid for. I find that comment utterly disgusting. How dare you mock the qualifications of a FULLY QUALIFIED pilot who is trying to make his way to the top. I have PERSONALLY been on a British Airways 747 flight from London Heathrow to New York JFK and I spoke to the First Officer during his break. He was a 25 year old young respectable Englishman who came through the British Airways cadet scheme and has been flying since he was 18. British Airways is a fantastic airline with an EXCELLENT safety record and mind you, the first officer was younger than the Ryan Air pilot you were mocking. If any of you feel that an 18 year old First Officer is not good enough to pilot your plane, then I am afraid that you will have to settle for Air Canada for a LONG time. The lovely ailing airline all Canadians are proud off.

"Just wave to me as you fly over with a severely reduced level of safety"

STS, your comment is clearly unjustified and is not backed by any statistical means. You have made a rash comment without any backing. As an AME, I would have expected a more mature comment from yourself, let alone a comment from a person who is not an airline pilot.

I do like the fact that young people have the opportunity to become pilots in a major airline. It brings new ideas, new thoughts and do not require the large salaries that people with thousands of hours ask for. Young people also are easier to adapt to new techniques which airlines try to mould their pilots to be. Most cadet schemes are there to mould pilots from a young age and to bring them up to the airline standard they are training for. From a personal interview with a major European Airline, I was told that they preferred pilots who came from a non-military background. This was because they found that it was more difficult to mould military pilots to the way that this airline operated their aircraft and they found that the pilots were more aggressive with the planes. Experienced pilots are great for the airline industry, but this comes at a cost and airlines in Canada should wake up and realise that if they kept this notion of only hiring pilots with thousands of hours, then they are going to spend more money and more training at the end of the day. The rest of the world has tried and tested the cadet scheme and have hired young pilots and it works. This has been going on for decades, especially in Europe and it has worked wonderfully for them. Their safety records have been fantastic. It is a successful scheme. Most of these airlines today operate on profit and is something we envy here in Canada. I can honestly say that the rest of the world has taken a step ahead of us here in North America (especially Canada, with only one major airline) in hiring young pilots. I don't think a lot of you have thought about this issue before you wrote down your angry replies to "Glorified Donkey".

The ICAO issued license for Canadian pilots is a decent qualification, but is not up to the same high level of standards that are required from European airlines and the JAA (which the Middle East, Asia and Africa are moving towards). There are a number of topics in this forum alone which are discussing the conversion to JAA qualifications. The process is quite tedious and very expensive. On the other hand, Europeans that come to North America have it extremely easy. This is not to say that Canadian pilots should not fly or are not qualified, but it goes back to the same topic that "Glorified Donkey" brought up, regarding the lack of ability to fly worldwide with your Canadian license (if you have less than 'X' amount of Jet time).Canada does have a lot of flying. The fact that we live in the second largest country in the world almost always forces us to fly to places. Canada is rich in bush flying, float flying, private services, flying medical units etc... but Canada is NOT rich in the large commercial industry which "Glorified Donkey" has highlighted. Canada does not have the privilege which other countries have, where 747's and A340's constantly roam their skies from the many different airlines. Look at the UK. A country which alone fits roughly 4.5 times into Ontario, has a vast array of Commercial jet airlines which most operate on a profit. British Airways, Virgin Atlantic, EasyJet, Ryanair, British Midland etc.... So when "Glorified Donkey" made the comment that Canada sucks (which most of you took personally, because you were naive to think he referred to the country and not the aviation industry), I completely understood his perspective. I have spoken to a very large amount of Canadian pilots, ESPECIALLY working in Emirates Airlines and Gulf Air and they could not think of working in the Canadian market again. The market in Canada is very volatile. Just recently we had Jetsgo go under. Air Canada, which is our sole official carrier, has fired and laid off pilots, right, left and centre. Then they talk about pay cuts and they talk about pension funds and so on. I think we have to be humble about the fact that we do not have the best aviation industry. And unless you have tried something else and tested different airlines in other countries, then do not give your unwanted angry opinion to an aspiring person who thinks the Canadian market sucks. It does suck (commercially at least) and we have to accept it. Most of the Canadian pilots abroad were sceptical before flying to far off places in Asia to get jobs, but they eventually realised that there was something better out there. Sure they miss Canada, because it is their home, but when you get a 14 month annual salary and free accommodation and private schooling for your children in a tax free country, then I can definitely tell you that the aviation industry here DOES suck.

"Do you really think it should be commonplace to have an 18 year old in such a position of responsibility?"

STS, you seem to have a very narrow view of what can and cannot be done in the aviation industry. This also comes to me as a surprise from someone who claims to have been in the aviation industry since 1978. I am not sure if you are aware of this fact, but First Officers are usually with a Captain in the cockpit. Captains are highly experienced pilots and are there to help, guide and teach First Officers. Next time you fly on an airline which is not registered in North America, just ask for the First Officers age. I can guarantee you, that you will be in the departures lounge for a long time. At 18, you can vote, smoke, drink (almost everywhere around the world), drive a car, operate machinery and you are telling me that you do not find it common place to have an 18 year old operate a large aircraft. As for yourself, an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, I would assume you had to be an apprentice for a while and then worked along side experienced engineers in maintaining aircraft. I have seem fitters and AME who work on aircraft who are as young as 18 years of age. Surely you would agree then that they should be NOW WHERE NEAR an aircraft...!!! You also surely would agree that an AME's job in maintaining safety should be just as impeccable as a pilot and anyone else in the aviation industry. Then according to your philosophy, they should mature till the age of 40(or some ripe old age), then become AME's for a big airline, in the meantime they could gain experience by maintaining props and turbo shafts, because they are not AS important.

Now that I have finished my ranting, I am sure I am going to get some interesting feedback in this forum. “Glorified Donkey” don’t just sulk and think that we have it horrible here in Canada, if you really want a high paying job with a great and prosperous airline, then you will have to relocate (which you have expressed already). Write to these airlines and find out their entry criteria’s. Canadians are the largest single nationality to be hired as pilots on Emirates Airline. I think they will be willing to accept a Canadian ICAO licence. Always remember that the world is your oyster and there are lots of opportunities out there. Hope you the best of luck in finding a job out there and keep your chin up. :D

[Willie Everlearn]

Well said Speedbird eh! :ok:

From my perspective, age and experience, I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.

For fellow canadians who feel so strongly about canada, I'd agree that it is a clean, safe, and modern country, but that's it. As for being the best country in the world? I guess it depends on what you're smokin'. :confused:

Sorry, I don't agree. :sad:

I am a patriotic canadian (small "c") and anything but nationalistic. (Thanks to Quebec!! :{ ) My vision of Canada no longer includes this spoilt 'petit province'. (but that's my opinion, isn't it?) :*
We don't live in true democracy thanks to an antiquated Parliamentary system inhereted from the Brits. :(

AS for aviation here. It's a joke. True, our licencing is better than most countries but nowhere near the standard it should be.

Those of you working overseas know quite well and are much less likely to return when Air Canada fires up the "B" scale hiring machine in a few weeks. And, why would you want to pay the exorbitant tax rates clean, safe and modern bring with it?

Dubai is clean, safe and modern. Isn't it? :cool:

[hibypassratio]

Speedbird, very well put. I am a proud Canadian. I love this country and have seen most of it.

But....the avation industry in this country is whacked!

Fortunatley for me I am happily married. Unfortunately, with my wife's chosen profession, although highly educated, she would probably have a problem having her certification accepted in most non-english speaking countries. Probably for that matter, in some english speaking countries. That makes it difficult for me to choose to work abroad. Sincle I love avition, I will slog it out here. The closest I will get to Speedbirds type of carrer, possobly, is working for a CX based in Canada. Unless of course, we can find out which countries will accept my wife's qualifications and reward her accordingly.

Oh, well...

[Glorified Donkey]

Thats where Im headed. Love Canadian beer and women, but its not enough to keep me here, I am in a sense done with Canada. Insurance is too high, everything is privatized so its so expensive, taxes are through the roof and services suck. There are people with landed immigrant status that get priority over a doctor, even though I was born in this country. Like that even means anything anymore. Really too bad, Im sure all the expats wanted to fly in their home country, but the quality of life in Canada is no longer the same. Sorry if any of you took my comments personally.

[Dockjock]

deleted because I sound like an idiot.

[Glorified Donkey]

Some good posts from both sides, I do believe Canada produces high quality pilots, but as far as the Europeans go, well at least they are not in debt for most of their twenties, making below poverty line and in most cases working a dock or ramp instead of flying. Aviation is expensive. If you invest $35 or 40K you should leave and be making money (at least 30K) I have friends that spent less than $10K on their education and they make triple what a flight instructor makes. Thats where the system is flaud. Theres no money, no job security. You may say we have the better pilots, what good is that if you can only afford KD and you can't move up because too many high time guys are sitting on the low end jobs. With crazy minimum requirements like 500hrs to fly a 172, what do you expect?

If you enjoy the bush flying thing, then theres no better country to do your flying. But thats about where it ends

If someone asked me if I wanted to fly and make $15K a year or be a button pusher for $55K, Id say where do I sign up for the button pusher job?

[CanAV8R]

Dockjock,

Whoa big fella. Easy now. Speedbird is correct on the majority of what he is saying. You sound bitter. European aviation is for the elite and a rich boys club? That one made me laugh and fall off my chair as you would say.Canadian aviation sucks for one reason. Too many pilots willing to bend over and take it.

Not everyone over here gets their big airline job at 19 with 200 hours but it does happen. I have flown with FO's with 300 hours and they flew circles around some of the higher time lads.

I did the bush thing at home, flew scheds, meds and everything in between. Numerous types on my licence and I left Canada for one reason. I wanted a better career and at least from my experience and others that have done the same, this is what has happened. Look at the royal mess at AC, the circus called Jetsgo and the puny wages at WJ and you need to look no further. I am sorry but this is the truth....

So before you start mocking people you should actually know what you are talking about because from what i have read you clearly don't.

[cplpilot]

I am an Italian with a Canadian CPL. I was lucky enough to fly in both Europe and Canada. They are both beautiful countries but aviation in Canada is cheaper, this does not mean that european pilot are all rich when they start!!!!!:hmm:
The mentality is different and i found Canada very unfair with pilots. Instructing for example is a money-sucking machine, i know instructor that keep student flying dual so they can log the time even when they are ready for their solo. In europe an instructor is usually very experienced and at the end of his career. In my flying school we had an ex military pilot and an ex Alitalia Captain teaching, so they can pass experience to the student.
When i came here i had a 20 years old instructor, underpaid 200hr wonder with no experience in ANY field that was doing his best for my 40$ an hour!
I wonder why companies ask so many hours here!!!!!!:hmm:
Flying is beautiful everywhere, i guess pilot in Canada should grow up a bit and start fighting for their rights (a TTC bus driver makes 4 times more than and instructor) right now if you want to fly with low-time and good pay Europe is the place to go!!!!!

[Glorified Donkey]

cplpilot please check your pm

[Dockjock]

For those that get into flying for money, prestige, women, and porsches, you might as well give Canada a pass. You won't be missed!

[Glorified Donkey]

Well this is a career, I don't know about you but I didn't pay all this money to do this as a hobby. This is a career for me. And I expect to be paid for what I invested. It seems you've been brain washed by the system, pay your taxes to the big brother he'll look out for you. This industry you look out for yourself. Everyone complains if you buy a PPC, but are they gonna help you get a job, no. Therefore you do what you have to, to move on. They will always complain because they thought they would be given the job and they were dissapointed. Enjoy paying your taxes!

And its not even about the money or prestige. Its about being paid fairly and treated with respect. Instead you\'re paid less than a 2 cent whore and taken advantage of by your employer making you fly for free and clean his hangar. Thats not aviation my good friend thats exploitation, and anyone agrees to do that kind of work needs to get their heads checked.

[cplpilot]

Well said, i tink Dockjock is a very sweet and romantic fella, wich probably have a lot of success with high school girls.
Unfortunately for us, living outside neverland, we have to pay a mortgage, car insurance, kid's diapers, etc doesn't work like that.
I am over 30 and i choose to live for fly and not fly to live. Bell Canada, Enbrige gas, the Hydro company, the dentist, do not accept my CPL as an excuse for don't pay the bills.
You see, until you don't take seriously the fact that you suppose to be a PROFESSIONAL PILOT and paid to act like one (see air Canada) instead giving your ass for free to comapanies around Canada, you will be a gloryfied AMATEUR pilot.

[CanAV8R]

Dockgirl. That was a pathetic reply after your idiotic response to Speedbird. Seriously some of your posts make zero sense. If you are going to go on a rant at least have the smarts to back it up.

How are the stand ups to YXC these days? Good fun from what my old mates in YYC tell me.........not.

[smo]

I have to agree that Canadian aviation is turning in to a dead end career. As I am writing this it exactly 12 years since I came to Canada with big dreams and a sparkle in my eye. I have managed to remain positive and goal oriented until I lost my job this winter. I have moved my family 6 times (soon 7) in 6 years! Only 2 of those moves were our own idea the rest were foced because of restructuring and or facing layoff's. I've been flying for 12 years and I have yet to brake $60,000CDN in a year, although I got close in 2001. Since then however It's been going downhill. My wages has steadily declined and my gross earnings for 2004 was less than 40k!
I love Canada and I love the people, but that is it for me! I have got a job in Asia where my starting salary is much higher than anything I have ever been paid here.
Thanks to a gazillion flyingschools feeding naive kids lies and giving false hope there are simply to many dogs fighting for the same bone around here! It is off course good for the large general aviation sector. Operators can get pilots at a dime a dozen and pilots take these underpaid slavery like jobs because it is "only a stepping stone" on the rocky road glamorous airline pilot life...right?
I hope for everyone here aspiring and or planning on sticking around that things get better..I really do! I am fortunate to be in a postion where packing up and moving the family half way around the world is not a huge deal, but not everyone are in this position.

[cplpilot]

God luck SMO!!!! i hope all will work out for you!
...and if you ever need a first officer....;)

[Glorified Donkey]

Wow, I can understand moving that much when you're single but it is especially hard when you have a family, good luck! Hopefully this is the big break you've worked for. :ok:

[Dockjock]

Grass is greener everywhere else- got it.

For me, I'm staying here dead grass and dirty ground and all. I'll never make Cathay money, or be a widebody Captain by 30. But I'm not the one that got into this career with "big dreams and a sparkle in my eyes" either. Sorry if you all are disappointed in how its worked out for you thus far. It hasn't been easy for anybody this last 5 yrs, myself included (3 layoffs).

But hey if you base your career expectations on Catch Me If You Can then I think you'd better look in the mirror as to who's in neverland. And don't go blaming the flight schools- what a sad cop out. Does the world owe you a job as a pilot, just because you went and got a license? Did you research the industry AT ALL before embarking on the training? Is it the "industry's" responsibility to make sure everyone that trains can become a jet pilot? Who is the bogeyman here? Other pilots?!

Happiness comes when reality meets expectations. If your expectations of Canada were to enter a cadet programme, fly a jet at 20 yrs old, and make $80K to start then I can see why you're not happy. That doesn't exist here and its your own fault for not knowing that in the first place.

CanAV8R- Standups are fine, thanks. Not my favorite shift in the world, but what are you, too good to fly a turboprop? Too good to fly at night? Please elaborate, because as far as I know a large portion of the job of pilot consists of flying people to and from different destinations, sometimes even at night!

[smo]

Dockjock:

I had no illusions coming into this industry. My father is a retired pilot and he was busy trying to talk me out of getting into aviation for a good 15 years, so I have no excuses whatsoever.
When I mentioned the flyingschools, it's because I spent plenty of time at my flying school standing around the coffee machine, between/before/ after flying lessons listening to these guys go on about this looming pilot shortage the school was promising them. Don't get me wrong, we do need flyinschools and pilots. All I am saying is that many poor souls really have no idea what they are getting themselves into until it is to late. Who haven't heard this line at some point, " if I knew I had to endure all this BS to get into a cockpit I would have done something else!"

I towed gliders, did aerial photography, flew floats and ski's, hauled cargo and fuel and have flown for a couple of smaller scheduled airlines as well as one major carrier. Would I change anything if sent back in time? Absolutely not! I would have missed out on meeting and befriending, or simply crossing paths with all the fantastic aviators, friends and folks from various walks of life that I have met if i changed anything. I would not have met my wonderful wife or had the 2 beautiful children I have today if I changed anything.
Whats my point you say? Well, my point is that I am not copmplaining about the career or path I took, sure It wouldn't bother me any if I did not have to move that regularly but it is the price you pay. It's simply a decent wage for me at this point. To be able to plan your financial future. But hey! I might be posting how much my life sucks on here in a few months. There are no gurantees in this business. One thing I have learned though is that you must be willing to take chanses and make sacrifices to make headway in this industry.... and I am sure as hell ready to take at least one more chance if not more;)

BTW! One thing to be said for Canada is the many forms of aviation offered due to size, geography and climate. Not many if any other country offers the exposure to extremes that Canada does. Take tempereature as an example. We as Canadian aviators have alot to be proud of. We just need to figure out how to get paid what we deserve.

My 2 cents!

[CanAV8R]

Dockjock,

I went a little over the top there and will now apologise. I get sick and tired of people trying to tell me that leaving Canada is a mistake and all things at home 'Will get better'. Look at the latest headlines on CBC and see that some AC guys are talking unofficial job action. A year ago they were hanging on by a thread and now this. Come on boys, there are enough toys in the sand box for all of us! Maybe we can even get a bigger sand box, more toys and some more kids to play!

I am not too good for turbos as I have 3000 hours of time in em and have done scheds, medevac and night freight for years. Been on a big Boeing for just under a year. No layoffs as of yet but that was due to working for a solid employer in Canada and then chosing to come here. Luck as well!

I worked hard to get a JAA licence and then took my experience to get a job here. People like yourself I will add would have there pick of gigs here. Again just making a point. Good luck in Canada and if you ever get sick of all the BS look across the pond. You may be pleasantly surprised. You can always go home and if you work over here, early retirement is a must!!

[Otterman]

I am sitting here as a 41 year old Canadian living in Europe (I have for the last 18 years). I am part of one of the main export products that our country produces; pilots. Back in the middle to late 1980’s there was very little prospect of a decent career with a Canadian airline. PWA had just taken over CP air. Wardair was absorbed shortly afterwards, and we were starting to see guys from those airlines being laid off and making a reappearance in the North. Not much has changed in the last 20 years.

I was fortunate enough to be able to transition from a twin otter up north into a major airline in Europe back in 1987. I started as a relief pilot on the Boeing 747-200/300 and at 25 upgraded to the right seat. After me at least 80 other Canadians made the switch to this airline in the ensuing seven years. This is just one European major. We are spread out in the Far East, the Middle East, and even in Africa I am bumping into fellow Canadians.

A lot of my fellow Mount Royal College graduates (from my year) are out of the business (7 out of 18), or sought refuge in the Canadian Armed Forces (3, of which one is non-flying), some are still stuck in the regionals (3). One I know off has been an FO on a Dash 8 for 16 years now. This leaves only me and another graduate at this European major. And three of the guys made it into Air Canada (2 through Canadian). All but one are FO’s on narrow bodies, and the other one is an FO on the A330. And this is considered to be a normal year for graduates.

I consider this very sad; where at the very least 13 out of the 18 are no longer active or underemployed. And you can arguably state that the guys at Air Canada are also experiencing very slow career progression.

Compare this to the ab-initio program that my European airline has, where more than 90% of the graduates make it into the mainline operation. The others go regional, or charter. And indeed these kids start the program at 18-19 years old, and make it into the relief pilot seat (wide-body) or FO Boeing 737 at around 21 years old with 250 hours total time. One remark though that should be made is that their debt load is more than 160,000 Canadian by the end of their training. But when you join this airline at 21 and you have a normal career it is a debt that is quite manageable (it is usually paid off over a period of ten years).

In Canada we let anyone train and this creates the supply and demand problem that we have had every year since anyone can remember. This works out great for the operators up north and the less scrupulous operators down south, there is always a steady supply of young blood willing to work for peanuts, or worse pay for the privilege to fly for them. So the situation will continue for the foreseeable future. All that is left to do is for anyone seriously considering our business as a viable career to take a very careful look at the risk/reward of joining us. I know I have not had a typical career (made it to the left seat of the 767’s at 38 years old), so I won’t preach on how great it all is, like all things in life you need a good bit of luck, in the meantime enjoy what you do along the way. There is always a price to pay, I no longer live in Canda.

Greetings, O.

[cplpilot]

Dockjock,
i did not mean to offend you before and i apologize if i did. What i am trying to say is that you have the luck to be born in an amazing country, multicultural, full of opportunity for people all over the world that cannot do anything but fall in love for the cities, the nice peoples and the wonderful north.
The country is so vast and the population dansity so low, that aviation is the backbone of transportation, supply of goods and sometimes medical care.
It seems than for me very unfair that a CN driver or a TTC bus driver make 3 times more money than a pilot with little investment in licence, endorsment, medicals, ratings, etc. somehow it seem to me unfair, also because i belive that a fair pay and a fair teatment brings to a better and safer aviation. How? well i have a bunch of friend weitering until late in the night and fly during the day, continuosly worrying about paying bills. As we all know stress is a big factor for aviation safety.
I also belive that conpany that underpay pilots to stay afloat and hire pilot to work in the ramp grabbing them by the balls brings to unsafe enviroment, where people keep thei mouth shut when see something wrong . Good companies now has to compete with bad ones and that make their expansion more difficult, and this means less "goos job" for everybody.
I come from a wonderful country, i can go back anytime but i fell in love for Canada and i wonder why so many people come here to find opportunity but canadian pilots have to look for opportunity somewhere else, often in 3rd world contry!!!!!:uhoh:
You can travel everywhere in Europe with a train or a bus, still pilot are treated fairly, Canadian pilots are too important and too good to be treated like amateurs.

[STC]

SpeedbirdEh,

First of all, its STC, not STS. On your next medical perhaps you can get them to concentrate on your eyesight a little more.

Second, you sure make a lot of assumptions on my part. I made no comment on the state of the airlines in Canada in this thread (as yet). In my opinion Air Canada (or "Canadia" as you choose to spell it with signs of contempt) is a failure whose emergence from bankruptcy virtually unscathed is (to use your term) disgusting. And the rest of the operators are second class at best from a global perspective.

You say that my comments about 18 year old airline pilots are not backed by any statistical means. No sh*t Sherlock. That’s because there isn't enough data. That’s like saying that there is no overwhelming statistical evidence that poking your eye with a pin hurts. Not enough people are stupid enough to do it. The lack of 18 year olds in the right or left seat of heavy iron isn't accidental.

There is a lack of statistical data regarding commercial single engine IFR operations too. But you won’t see me board a PC-12 or a Cessna 208 on a commercial flight. Call it irrational if you like. We all have our own personal comfort threshold and paying for a ticket to launch into the arctic in the winter at night with less than 2 engines, crosses my comfort threshold. You don’t even need to add the 18 year old.

You speak about how AMEs enter an apprenticeship program and how this is comparable to a first officer in an airliner. Do you really think this is a valid comparison? I would certainly hope that a first officer has undergone a great deal more training than an AME apprentice. A copilot is an active part of the flight crew and is expected to be able to operate the aircraft under normal conditions, and should certainly be able to operate the aircraft if the captain becomes incapacitated.

I wouldn't trust an apprentice to perform and certify maintenance on an aircraft without oversight and certainly NOT large transport aircraft. An apprentice AME, even one that works in an airline, is not, in any way shape or form, similar to a copilot in a large transport aircraft. When an AME apprentice screws up, the checks and balances that are mandated to exist catch the problem before the aircraft is returned to service. We need only to look to the Air Canada RJ accident in Halifax to see that this doesn't work for "apprentice" flight crew.

You have also, in my opinion, shifted the blame for the dismal Canadian aviation industry, at least from a pilot perspective, from the real problem: Canadian commercial pilots are whores. What exactly is the incentive for airlines in Canada to commit to any sort of creative training solutions when pilots, for the most part, are a dime a dozen? Hell, some of them will even pay for their training!

The exception of course is Air Canada, but their pilot’s union is so mired in stupidity, that they have become ineffective and more of a liability to the company than an asset.

And…that’s the end of my rant. Before you respond, please make sure you read the whole thread carefully, lest you put words in my mouth again SpeedbirdEh.

[smo]

STC:
Generalizing all Canadian commercial pilots as whores just goes to show how incredably shallowminded you are! I'd love to hear you utter that statament surrounded by a crowd of pilots. Yes we are underpaid but still make more than the majrity of pilots around. I belive that the starting pay at most places here is way to lowbut compare the average regional payscale to any regional in the States your jaw would drop. Start pay at most U.S. regionals are in the $20,000USD range. I think the point here isn't just the pay level though. You could fly a PC12 for Bearskin and make 60K when they operated them, and their Metro III Captains can make 70-80K. there are many operators in the general aviation sector that do pay fairly but my issue like I mentioned earlier is where can I go at this stage in my career and make enough money to live comfortably and save some for a rainy day? Sure, if i got on a Canadian carrier and they survive I'll be making ok cash in 10 years from now. The problem is I really cannot afford to make peanuts for another 5 years and that is why I decided to look abroad. And with the surplus of pilots we have here, my 7500 hundred hours of flying is not worth alot unfortunately!

Won't fly on a C208 or a PC12? I bet you have no issues with driving on a 4 lane highway at a 120km/hr though, which is hundreds of times more dangerous. Or do you simply not trust your own handywork or the level of maintenence found in Canada?

[Glorified Donkey]

Comeon guys, you don't need to be name calling. This was a post about my displeasure with the aviation industry because I see every other country moving ahead and with one of the largest producers of pilots we seem to be going nowhere very quickly. Its good to see some pilots have decided to pursue their dreams and make a good living for themselves outside of Canada. Please try to refrain yourselves from flaming on every post. Lets act alittle professional. You get treated how you act.

[brucelee]

Canada's aviation landscape is quite diverse. We enjoy the luxury of (still) affordable flt training compared to other nations and a mix of cargo and small charter operations. At the airline level there is only one unionized major (AC) and a host of other low cost/no frills whatever, charter and sched airlines. We produce alot of pilots. Most discover early on that flying does not pay the instant you get that first job. It takes years to earn that high paying widebody $200k plus/yr job. Most never get there. That's why many reluctantly look to other nations. Other nations don't have the quantity of pilots we do and have to hire outsiders like Canadians and pay them better than what they do at home to attract them there. We are also fortunate enough to be able to "get by" on lower salaries and those who won't leave or can't leave can afford to stay. I don't see what the fuss is about when it comes to staying or leaving Canada. Everyone is free to choose and it shouldn't be a reflection on this country but rather one's personal ambition. Sure we can always make more money. But like I've said many times, this country has cought the low cost virus and it ain't going away soon. That is something we have accepted like it or not.

[STC]

Generalizing all Canadian commercial pilots....

This thread is FULL of generalizations. Why pick on mine?

I'd love to hear you utter that statament surrounded by a crowd of pilots.

Jetsgo pilots perhaps? Between "tricks" I assume.

Yes we are underpaid but still make more than the majrity of pilots around.

So which is it? Are Canadian pilots underpaid or not? Seems to be alot of contradiction in this thread on that point including some statements you make in the same reply. You looked for employement abroad because you couldn't afford to hang around Canada, but Canadian pilots make more than the majority...does that make sense?

And with the surplus of pilots we have here, my 7500 hundred hours of flying is not worth alot unfortunately!

According to some, you don't need any experience to land an F/O job in a 747. You just need to be over 18...

:)

I bet you have no issues with driving on a 4 lane highway at a 120km/hr though, which is hundreds of times more dangerous. Or do you simply not trust your own handywork or the level of maintenence found in Canada?

The level of experience is a huge factor in driving a car or an airplane. I have never been involved in a car accident and I consider my experience and skill a huge factor.

I also consider the risk involved. Drivers between 16 and 20 years of age account for about 20% of accidents but represent only about 10% of drivers. I was lucky to be able to make it through my younger (more dangerous) years. So yes...I wouldn’t feel comfortable as a passenger in a car on a difficult high speed roadway with an inexperienced driver. Would you?

With respect to commercial single engine IFR ops, I just think it was a bad idea from the start and many passengers don’t have the means to determine the risk themselves. I do, and I refuse to get on them as a paying passenger. You don’t have to agree. Jump on!

Handywork and level of maintenance? Its got nothing to do with this discussion. As I mentioned before its not even a valid comparison in my opinion. Yer talkin’ apples and oranges.

:)

[Glorified Donkey]

At the same time, if you were right now offered a 747 job you'd jump on it!

[smo]

Gloryfied Donkey,
I don't know if your last post was directed at me but if it was you are dead wrong. I would not automatically take a 747 position.

STC,
You can make more than the majority and still be underpaid. But when you throw in the cost of living factor we're not doing so good anymore. Cost of living, i.e. real estate has gone up alot the last few years but pay has either remained the same or gone down. If you look at what local pilots get paid in Africa, South America and many contries in Asia Canadian pilots are certainly better off.
I "generally" respect everyone's opininons and standpoints but I get pissed off when someone has the ignorance to call every commercial pilot in Canada a whore for accepting the jobs that they do! You will never or have never heard me say or read a statement from me putting down thousands with one derogatory remark. That is not to suggest i am innocent of everything either. You happen to have chosen a market where the employees have had the upper hand due to a shortage of qualified people. I still stand by my statement that to many pilots and not enough jobs is a major factor in the paylevel being what is in this Country. It's the old "if the first guy don't take it there is allways someone in line that will".
Besides, what does jetsgone have to do with this? You painted every single commerial pilot with the same brush.
Actually with Jetsgone out of the picture all the other airlines in Canada have increased their fares dramatically but i did not hear of any pilots benefiting from it.

[Dockjock]

I'll admit that starting off here in aviation is much harder than it is in other countries. Harder, meaning harder work, less pay, and less respect. But what I do not believe is that your chances of getting a jet job are any different than they are in any other region in the world. Europe, or Asia, or the middle eastern carriers are not just handing out jet jobs like candy to anyone walking down the street as it may be tempting to believe when you're unemployed in Canada.

As an example, let's take 100 20-yr old wannabe pilots from each region. In Canada, I'd guess that 70 would go on to obtain the license and begin searching for work. Of them, perhaps 50 would get a job in charter, instructing, or light aircraft aerial work). Of those, 10 years later, perhaps 20 will eventually get a jet job. So a theoretical success rate of 20%, but still with 30% still working as pilots but unable to land a jet job.

Now let's forget Asia and the middle east for now, because both regions generally recruit expats as Captains only, and the few that hire first officers either come with a type rating due to being laid off "back home", or pay their own rating prior to joining.

So for those same 100 20-yr old wannabe pilots in Europe, I'd guess that right off the bat only 30 are able to afford to pay for $100,000 worth of training to even complete the licenses. Fewer still are accepted into a cadet programme (for the very, very few airlines out there still running them). Out of them, say 25 are able to get jobs, with say 20 on jets. Sure 25 out of 30 got jobs, and 20 on jets, but fully 70% had to abandon their dreams totally at the outset because of the high barrier to entry!

Of course this is pure conjecture, but useful as a thought experiment. In Canada, due to the lower cost and standards of obtaining the license, more people are able to complete the training, and more people are able to get jobs. Granted, they are not necessarily sustainable, or good jobs, but that is in large part owing to our very, very large general aviation industry in comparison with other regions. Do we really think a Cessna 180 floatplane pilot living in Beaver Fever, MB is going to be paid 50, 60, or $70,000 a year!? Of course not.

I do believe our jet pilots are paid competitively with other nations, the difference is the road to get there is usually 10+ years longer than it is in other places, hence the earnings, and happiness gap. A 30 or 35 year old ex-wannabe jet pilot in europe has long since moved onto a different career. Here, many more are able to stay connected with the industry and slog along hoping for better one day but continually getting further and further behind "everyone else". This is where the majority of our complaints and dissatisfaction comes from.

One very positive thing about Canada is that due to our very large GA industry, many are able to carve out very nice careers in specialized areas such as arctic, fire suppression, or medevac flying while (quite happily) never pursuing big jet airline flying.

[smo]

Dockjock,

That is an excellent post and you are probanly right. I grew up in Europe, and a very few of those aspiring to become a commercial pilots get to realize their dreams. Canada is unique in having such a large GA sector and I will only be repeating myself if I carry on!

BTW STC!

I want to make it clear that I have had nothing but great expeiences with Canadian engineers or maintenance. It being the AME or the procedures to be followed. I have learned a great deal of what I know from spending countless hours "hanging out" in various maintenance facilities! keep up the good work!

[Speedbird eh!]

STC....


"A wise man is superior to any insults which can be put upon him, and the best reply to unseemly behavior is patience and moderation."

Moliere


Next time you want to reply to a post, don't personally insult me. The best insult is to prove me wrong. I am afraid that will be VERY difficult.

P.S. I am glad you are an AME... the ground is where you belong ;)

[cplpilot]

All my friend with a commercial licence in Italy found a jobs, i came to Canada and i am the only one with no chance of a job:\
My best friend for example got hired in the Lear45 with 400 hours!!!!! and he is making very good money too...
It is truth, in europe is more expensive but belive me that A LOT of people can pay for their licence not only 30%, somehow people thre handle the money better i guess;)

[Otterman]

The costs of becoming a pilot here in the Netherlands are certainly very high. But if you attend one of two State recognized schools you get fairly easy financing from the banks. That is how most guys/girls do it. If you make it through the pre-screening you have a very good shot at making it to the major airlines, and at the young ages that they join they have a great head start in getting the thing paid off by the time they are in their late twenties to early thirties. By that time their pay will be easily in excess of 130,000 Canadian and they are nicely set up for the rest of their careers.

The big difference between here and Canada lies in the fact that anyone (regardless of intellect, capabilities, or aptitude) can take a crack at breaking into our profession. In the Netherlands they pre-screen you to see if you have what it takes. One system produces too demand (and in exceptional times of growth there is a buffer of well qualified people out there who can fill in the gaps), the other system (in Canada) produces an excess that can be exploited in good or bad times to produce the lowest labour costs possible.

Not saying one is better than the other, but I certainly met more people who should not be in our business back home in Canada than I do here in this country. My best friend back in Canada is one of the best handling pilots I know, great Captain for one of the large regional airlines in Canada, and an all-around great person. He would have never made it here in Europe because of his lack of grades and book smarts. That is the downside; there are a lot of people here who would have made great Captains who did not pass the screening. For those of us who do make it, the rewards are that much greater because of the difficulties that are put in your way.

[STC]

SpeedbirdEh....

Thats awesome! You elevate yourself above issuing personal insults, then you insult me...personally!

You're only human after all!


;)


P.S. I am glad you are an AME... the ground is where you belong

I hope you think that over carefully next time you strap yourself into an airplane that's just been released from maintenance. You may discover one day that your safety is at least partly dependant on us "ground" dwellers.

:p

[Dockjock]

Wow, this thread is actually back on track!

Interesting perspectives from those in other regions. But cplpilot, your story proves my point- sure all of the people you knew that had commercial pilot licenses got jobs, but you probably have no idea the number of people that were not even able to get to that point. And no, people in Canada are not just "bad at handling money".

In all honesty it begs the question, if it is so damn great back in Italy, what the h&ll are you doing here? For most native north americans (like myself), an EU passport is a non-starter. If I had a CHOICE of where I would work, like you do, I would more than likely choose the place with better conditions, pay, and chances of success given my qualifications. Staying here in Canada, whining about how difficult it is serves no purpose whatsoever. Go back to Italy man!!

Otterman,
Your summary of the dutch approach to training summarizes my initial (deleted post) point about european aviation being elitist. Canada's charter of civil rights and freedoms practically outlaws that kind of screening if it were to unfairly limit opportunities. But it sure does make it seem like its "easier" to get a job once you're in; and also by limiting supply, increases demand and thus pay.

Cheers

[cplpilot]

The fact is that i am trying to go back and i am trying to get a JAA licence (not easy with a canadian CPL). Also i have a life, a wife and friends here and i pay 50% of my income to the Canadian government and i think that entitle me to at list hoping that things might get better, don't yuo think?
In Canada have this beautiful pile of **** called human right commision (all Canadian are proud of it), where everybody has the same rights... then you talk to canadians and the first thing they can say is "go back to Italy". Do you understand that i like here, but yes is not a perfect country, Canada like Italy, USA, and the rest of the world has problems. Your parents were immigrants too and probably worked their ass off to make this country better right? If all immigrant that have problem leave Canada, the country would be empty now!!!!
Even if i am trying to get a job in Italy, that doesn't mean that pilots here are not treated like garbage and i hope the industry gets better, for my advantage and yours Dockjock.
Even if i come from Italy, we share the same passion, the same home (Canada) and the same hopes.

[smo]

STC,

Don't ever forget that without these "Canadian Pilot Whores" to fly your plane's you'd not be enjoying your present career as we all depend on eachother. I don't count on you hearing me all the way up there on your "Royal Canadian AME Throne" though!

As for the original thread there are obviously pro's and con's to becomming a pilot anywhere. I am born in canada and was raised in Europe and came here to pursue my lifelong dream.
I have had 12 years so rich with experience I could probably write a book. I would not change any of it if I could, like I said before. It is not an easy decision to leave Canada and I hope to return some day.
But the fact remains, after 12 years of hard work and many sacrifices my bankaccount is still empty and I am not getting any younger. The grass might not be any greener on the other side, but it is certainly taller;)

[STC]

Don't ever forget that without these "Canadian Pilot Whores" to fly your plane's you'd not be enjoying your present career as we all depend on eachother.

No argument there. I made no comment stating otherwise. Rememeber that I was answering the statement "I am glad you are an AME... the ground is where you belong". Why not scold SpeedbirdEh?



"Royal Canadian AME Throne"

Who said that? I didn't. Since is no such statement in this thread, I assume you're not aware of how to use quotes. You see....when you use quotes, it means you are quoting someone directly or coining a well know term or common slang. Try to be a little more careful next time.

;)

[smo]

STC,
I apologize for my improper use of quotes. But I have no doubt that for those who read it.......well, they don't really need to understand what I was trying to get at anyway if they have read the rest of your posts on here. I think you have made it clear how you feel about pilots and yourself. You're not a hardcore racist by any chance, are you?

As for Speedbird, I choose to belive he was being sarcastic.

[STC]

You're not a hardcore racist by any chance, are you?

Yeesh...where did that come from. You'll be happy to know that I am not in fact a "hardcore racist." But I am an amateur gynecologist.

;)

And what exactly is a "hardcore" racist? Someone who shuns nasty porn?

My last post was absolutely dripping with sarcasm. Didn't you see the smiley at the end?

You're trying hard to make me the bad guy here so you'll restore some sense of loss. Lighten up. I'm just some guy on the internet. If you don't like what I say, it won't affect you in the least. Really.

:}

[FFP]

Alright fella's, give it a break will ya ? It's all getting a tad boring to say the least.

Comfortable living in Canada or relatively rich in Europe ? My circumstances are slightly different to most, but my plan is to pay off my Canadian mortgage in Europe, retire to Canada at 38 on a pension and top it up with an instructing job, obviously not for the money but for the quality of life in Canada and to be able to be home at nights

Lots of money is good. Not much use though if the missus and kids are at home without you, spending it while you work your a$$ off.

And in Europe you will. . . ..



Each to their own. Good luck to everyone and what they choose.

[smo]

STC,
I relalize it is only a forum, but does that mean we don't have to be civilized? I have worked my ass off for 12 years in Canadian aviation and yes I am still pissed off/offended by being called a whore. Especially when it is being done by someone cowardly hiding behind a username. The really sad part is you won't apologize or back off on your generalization so that tells me all I need to know about your character.

You read my question right. Calling all Canadian pilots whores would be like saying all blacks are criminals hence the Q!

If you were being sarcastic earlier on, I apologize for failing to see the humor in being called a whore.

To rest of you reading this, I also apologize if you see my defending the integrity of Canadian commercial pilots as a neusance.

[STC]

smo,

Sorry I called you a whore. One dictionary defines a "whore" as someone who will "compromise one's principles for personal gain." But, the word "whore" is slang and somewhat vulgar. So. let me rephrase my statement:

All Canadian pilots are NOT whores. They are prostitutes.

Is that better? One definition of prostitute is “One who sells one's abilities, talent, or name for an unworthy purpose.”

In my opinion, based on the information on this thread, that is exactly what Canadian pilots are overwhelmingly guilty of. If you accept a wage for a flying that is below acceptable rates, especially if your duties are out of sync with your work description (those pilots that fly, then hang around the ramp loading, then spend the evening spit shining the bird and not counting it as “duty time” come to mind) instead of instantly realizing that those jobs cheapen the profession and support the operator’s opinion that pilots need to “work their way up” to a real pilot job, then you are contributing to the problem.

If operators know they have a huge pool of these people to draw from in Canada, what incentive do they have for developing creative training schemes, or paying an entry level pilot for flying instead of cleaning? Not so much…..

The ex-Jetsgo pilots did a HUGE disservice to the industry by going beyond even prostitution and actually paying the employer for the privilege of working there. The truth hurts sometimes.

"Cowardly"? Hiding behind a user name? This is an anonymous forum. Most of us are aware of what that means and each of us is entitled to "hide" or expose ourselves. By calling me cowardly for posting anonymously, you are effectively calling the vast majority of pprune contributors including yourself "cowardly". Sort of an unjustified generalization don't you think?

Perhaps you should apologize…..

[Glorified Donkey]

Well then WestJet guys are just as guilty as they stay behind after the flight and help clean the cabin because "its good for the company" and they still get paid like sh*t.

[smo]

Coward only applies to those making statements they would not add their name to or say to someones face.

Thanfully most of us on here do not write anything we would not happily add our name to. Keep's it civilized.

You certainly seem hot and bothered with the pilot wages in Canada. So what is your solution? Co-ordinate a nation wide strike? Demanding better pay is easier said than done in the wake of 9/11, higher insurance rates, through the roof fuel prices and tonn's of unemployed pilots kicking around.

I repeat, it is the story of supply and demand. The supply has allways been a lot higher than the demand in Canada and allways will be with 250+ private flyingschools in addition to colleges, universities and the airforce. I agree that pilots that offer to work for free do not deserve to hold a license. Do not categorize me as one of them because I have never done it, but that is what you are doing, calling everyone a whore.
I think the only solution is for the government to tighten the noose on how many commercial licenses are issued annually, but then the flyingschools will scream bloody murder.

[cplpilot]

Ah ah ah... limit the licence? that is funny:}
Why don't we limit drive licences too, the traffic kills me;)
Or maybe we should kill people over 65, there is no enogh family doctors...
What about, helping (tax cuts and incentives) companies that operate in safety, pass regular inspections, treat emplyees fairly? thet will expand eventually and here are more jobs!
And maybe help ****ty companies that cannot afford to buy fuel never the less pay employees go bancarupt? They will eventually close anyway.
Good comanies now have to compete with bad ones and that is unhealty for pilots, passengers and economy.

[Otterman]

Elitist? Not sure if you are grasping what I am saying. If you pass the aptitude test and meet all the psychological requirements there is nothing stopping you from entering the program. Like I said the banks will lend you the money. There are also people from Europe who take the route of getting their licenses in the USA and Canada and in that way try to break into the system. If you are that motivated, all the more power to you. I think it is only healthy to realize that you are fighting an uphill battle.

I think it is a good idea to give people a realistic picture about the venture they want to undertake. Being selective is a good thing in my opinion. I know that our profession is no longer held in any regard back in Canada, but it should at least rate up there with normal professional careers. Universities and colleges don’t let just anyone into the more lucrative study areas. Medicine, dentistry, engineering etc. The pre-screening happens in the grades that you get in high school, I think we can expect at least that much for our profession. Becoming a licensed pilot in Canada is also a sizable investment, with at the end of the rainbow very little reward. The system here in the Netherlands makes a lot more sense to me. You get a better product this way as well. Don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, but it is the truth.

But it sounds like you have your mind set about how wonderful system is that we have. But remember it has produced the situation that we see in Canada now. Good luck to you.

Please keep the insults down to a dull roar. It does not make your points more relevant, it does the opposite.

[STC]

OK…you called me a coward. Tell me who you are if you feel inclined.

You certainly seem hot and bothered with the pilot wages in Canada. So what is your solution? Co-ordinate a nation wide strike?

I actually don’t really give a rat’s ass what pilots make. It really doesn’t affect me directly but I do have an opinion that you are free to ignore or comment on.

Demanding better pay is easier said than done in the wake of 9/11, higher insurance rates, through the roof fuel prices and tonn's of unemployed pilots kicking around.

9/11 is the easy scapegoat that everyone uses. Funny how the oil industry doesn’t have a problem recovering. Their costs increased, and so did the price of oil. Most don’t even flinch while they fill up the SUV.

If the costs of doing business go up on a commodity that is in demand, why take it out on your employees? The logical thing to do is raise prices.

In my opinion, it all started when the industry was de-regulated. Before that, as a national flag carrier Air Canada didn’t care if they made a profit or not and other operators were able to set fares for reasonable profitability. I’m not saying that nobody went bankrupt in those days, because of course there are always other factors.

Following de-regulation, Air Canada spent the next couple of decades killing competition by offering seats below cost, eventually resulting in its bankruptcy. This scorched earth policy caused the competition to reduce costs. Some costs were reduced by increased efficiency and the balance was recovered by wage reduction. Of course, Air Canada management don't even know the meaing of "efficiency".

In a perfect and just world, Air Canada would have never emerged from bankruptcy and the remaining airlines (and some new ones) would raise fares to offset increased costs instead of punishing employees for working in the aviation industry. And we could have erased this sad era in Canadian aviation. The world isn’t perfect however, and Air Canada is back, debt fee and virtually unscathed.

Its pretty sad when some pilots make less than bus drivers, some AMEs make less than their car mechanics and some flight attendants make a lower hourly wage than the checker at Safeway. Of course that’s not the case with newly resurrected Air Canada.

Airfares need to rise to levels that would allow those in the aviation industry to make a good wage. With Air Canada around again with the same management that steered them into bankruptcy, and offered predatory pricing, that just isn’t going to happen. Especially with people keeping the 9/11 myth alive.

[smo]

I have nothing to hide and never made wrote anything that require hiding nor would i ever do. It is a matter of principal and character. I am starting to feel like broken record here but for the last time: I've been breaking my back for 12 years now, and I have been busy supprting/raising a family for the last 6. So when you call me a whore not only are you insulting me and my integrity but my family and all my friends in the Canadian Aviation industry that have been busting their chops beliving they are doing good for the future of their companies and their customers.

No doubt deregulation and predatory pricing did not help anyone the last few years, but working your way up the totem pole was hard in this country long before that happened and that is the subject at hand. I am no position to decide what a navajo or PC12 driver deserve. Deserve is a relative term. I do belive that the the starting salaries at the Airlines set the bar to a certain extent. The fact that you start at $34,000 at Jazz cetainly does not help anybody in the general aviation sector. How can you demand a lot for flying King Airs etc. when you get the above for flying a Dash 8 or an RJ. Who's fault is that? I don't know, I think it is a combination of many factors. It is certainly not just the pilots.

cplpilot,
So you think restricting # of licenses issued is funny? Well it is being done through reduced class sizes at government funded college/university programs. Like I said it is never going to happen because it would be impossible to establish a system fair to all private flyingschools.

[smo]

STC,
I also apologize for calling you a coward. I still say it was unsportsmanlike conduct to call me a whore. For the most part all of us have the same or similar goals in life and get up and go to work for the same reasons, despite choosing from the endless number of paths available. There are things you can and cannot control in life and the canadian aviation industry standards, I will admit is one of the tougher ones. You can say what you want but the fact remains that me alone refusing all jobs in this country will not change a damn thing.

[STC]

smo,

Didn't you used to work for Commando in Gimli? Yah. I guess you're right. You really have worked hard...

;)

Seriously though, I think you're taking the "whore" thing a little too personal. It certainly was a generalization and it wasn't meant to attack any one person. However, if pilots are serious about improving things, every single one has to be committed to the cause.

If I said "99% of pilots are whores" then the vast majority of readers would place themselves in the 1% that aren't because it's human nature to take the easy "out" when offered rather than come to the realization that you are one of the 99% no matter the degree.

[smo]

I'll accept that as an apology or that it did not nessecarily include me, and yes I did fly the C-46.;)
Case closed.

The funny thing is that the most money i ever made as a pilot was flying a C185. The monthly salary was far from the highest I've been paid, but when you consider that accomodation, phone satelite TV, and a lot of the food was included it was great. Thanks to living on Native reserves for 2 years I did not need a vehicle either. Basically I had no bills other than student loans.

[Dockjock]

Otterman,
By elitist, firstly I refer to the cost of training- availability of loans or not, it is clearly a barrier to entry, unless you are already from "money". Yes of course there will be exceptions, but I really don't think we can debate that a $100K bill for a commercial pilot license is very, very high. In light of the comparisons to Canada, where DOES that extra $60K or so go? Are you guys training on learjets ;)? Does it take 4 yrs to complete?! I do realize fuel is almost double the cost of N.A., but it sounds like a big, big tax grab over there. In any case...

I do think I misread your meaning for screening. I took it to mean psychometric testing, interviews, medical tests over and above the standards for CAT1 etc. If it is purely an aptitude test then I fully agree this should be adopted in Canada too. I do not agree fully with the charter of rights and freedoms as it does too often serve the lowest common denominator and nobody else.

I'm trying not to defend Canada's system, or really lack thereof. Just explaining it to the spring-loaded-to-whine crowd that seems to feel they are owed something just because they wear bars on their shoulders. I feel a switch to a college program only system would serve everyone better. Well, everyone except operators that count on pilots to pay their own training and work for free. There should be 6-8 colleges that offer the CPL training and none others. Private flight schools could offer recreational, private, night, IFR, multi, aircraft rental etc but no commercial. Groundschool should require at least 1000 hrs instead of just 150 of whatever pittance it is now. And the exams should require more than the memorization of the few study guide products that are out there. I mean essentially you can pass the cpl exam by spending $80 on those cheat notes.

[confort977]

Transat had a 26 year old L1011 Captain a few years ago.

[PoorPongo]

All the above seems to focus on the FW airline route. What about helos? I get the impression that there is a pretty vibrant RW industry in Canada which pays OK. Informal info I have heard tells me that if you have more than about 1000 hrs rotary then you should be able to get some kind of rotary work in Canada. How about taking that path? Or am I missinformed?

PP

PS - FFP - It appears we have the same plan... My Canadian Mortgage is currently being paid off on Aunty Betty with a view to a move in a few years time once its paid off and the pension kicks in at the right level... I'm off to BC to ski in Winter and fly aeros in the summer. What about you?

[zorx]

:ok: Brovo speedbird and industry in need of a major overhaul.It could be argued that a more serious psycological problem exists in Canada.I,m not qualified to pin point it but paranoid and arrogance comes to mind.A country run by a handfull of od school families.Not to mention the free trade agreement which is so easily forgotten and was responsible for the loss of Canada,s best and brightest,leaving only those who could keep the Canadian machine running ie:factory workers,social services and labour.I could go on, but great commentary .
BROVO,BROVO,BROVO

[herc driver]

So, back to the original question, or discussion point of the thread .... I think it was Glorified Donkey who wrote ...

"........ but the aviation industry in Canada sucks ...."

I've been flying in Canada now since 1987 and I love it .... even if I am underpaid by some other people's standards.

I just love to fly.

Sure, I don't get paid great amounts of money, but I get paid enough to live in a nice house, comfortable belongings, I've got a big TV with a huge surround sound system, a kick ass computer for on-line gaming, a nice car and I have just about everything I need ..... from a material point of view. I'm satisfied and I manage to save and invest at the same time - I live debt free and make regular payments on a reasonable sized mortgage.

What more is there??

Live well, buy the stuff you want, do your hobbies that you enjoy and save for retirement and the future along with a nice pension as well.

Sure I don't have a Condo in Whistler and I don't do exotic things that one would associate with the "jet set", but I am really happy. I may not be getting paid the same as the European pilot who has been working the same amount of time for a European carrier, but what do I care ...... I live quite comfortably. I drink single malt scotches, enjoy the odd Cuban cigar and have a fridge full of oak-aged fine wines. If I had another second house, or a bigger house then it is simply more house that I have to clean. (Suppose I could hire someone I guess)

I just love to "FLY" ..... and the aviation industry in Canada has allowed me to do just that. The view from my office on any given day is the best view I have ever had.

I am not stinking rich like some people's perceptions of a 41 year old pilot should be .... but I am happy, comfortable and I love what I do.

How many people out there can truly say that. How many us are in jobs that they simply love .... ???

**** man - people pay me to fly!!! What more in life is there?

If we always go around comparing ourslves to what other people/pilots are making and doing then we will never be happy or content. I've got everything I need to live well ..... the salary is pretty damned good and I have no fear of my future as my grey hair turns even greyer .....

The Canadian Aviation Industry has been pretty good to me.

If you don't like what you are being paid in the Canadian Aviation Industry then move on until you find what makes you happy and content .... keep going until you find the job/company that pays you want you think you are worth .... simple as that.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head to work for a specific company in a specific country. You're free to choose.

It's all about the flying ..... the rest is gravy.

[CaptW5]

Amen to that HercDriver :ok: I can say the same thing, have been flying here since late 1972. Prior to that in Europe, and since then some stints there and elsewhere.

[744]

18 perhaps a bit early, but I personally know 1 case of a F/O on 747-400 at 21 (min age in Europe for ATPL) directly out of flight school (1990). Also for sure know of a captain on 747 at age 28, and many examples in the early 30's.

BUT is that the goal? Once you are on the long-haul, one will see only a small part of flying. So you better did your real flying before.

Canada's problem is the old "supply & demand". Where else does an airline require a university degree to fly an airplane? They must require airplane designers not operators.

BUT does one want to live where the supply is low and the demand is high?????

In my humble opinion the equipment doesn't matter much (it wears off quickly). What matters is the lifestyle it offers and the company environment.

Cheers,

744

[FFP]

Some decent posts by both Herc Driver and 744 .....

Having flown long haul, I think I'd rather take a back seat and enjoy my flying a little more, be around home for the family and let my body have a rest !! Constant changes in time zones soon takes it's toll .. . . . .

PoorPongo = Sorry for the late reply. Have a few years left to do before the big move. Off to Ontario, hopefully to do some 9 -5 instructing and relax a little. Aunt Betty too will pay off the Canadian mortgage !!

[Ross_11]

So. Here I am all set to hike half the globe, all the way to Canada for Flight training…PPL…CPL… MIFR et all. And then I come across this post! I actually took the time to read all of your posts (other than those with a hint of personal Vendetta !), and at the end of it all, have a very different perspective! A scary one, to say the least!
Not that it makes a huge difference to me; I only intend to get my training and then get the hell back to my country! But I guess, ‘research’ before you plunge in with both your feet, in an industry as cyclical as this one, is an understatement!
The few disturbing posts here include ones which mention that Wannabe Jet ‘stars’, use instruction as plain time building ‘process’, continue to fly dual with a trainee pilot even when he’s ready to solo! These, I understand, are localized rather than general happenings?
People tell me, if I continue researching, I’ll never get started. But tell me, what does one do when he gets to such a post…..with all his savings at stake…..with high standards on mind!
I have absolutely no qualms against nationalities, neither do I have any intention to offend anyone with his/her choices, opinions, …or anything else….prior to what I’m about to put across. My sole intention is:
1. Love what I do and a career as a commercial pilot is close if not ‘it’.
2. Get quality flying training, as that is what gets you places, rather than ‘where’ you’ve done it all.
3. Have a time restraint; We don’t get younger, besides, at 27 it’s rather tempting to jump the gun and get on with it, having learnt that a fair possibility exists, to find a 18yr something at the helm of a 747!
4. Have every intention to be connected to aviation on a global platform (post ATPL blues), rather than restrain myself to aviation in my own country content on a simple but reasonably affordable life!
5. Have a limited budget, but just sufficient to pull off training in OZ rather than cheaper Canada. A degree approach though, in either place, is beyond me; though I intend to get it sometime in the future.

I gather from this forum that a Canadian license, holds lesser value, on a global platform. PLEASE correct me where I stand corrected! A EU license, on the other hand holds greater value regards standards of training, but has a huge cost attached to it. Training in the US doesn’t even seem an option; they’re ready to shoot you out of the sky, at the slightest opportunity, that’s if you were even allowed to start flight training!...or even given a VISA to do so!! That leaves OZ….the one option, that I don’t know much about, except better quality and standards.

There are pros and cons to every place; AGREED. But, I admit, I would really hate turning back, after a rough deal and a negative bank balance, to advise others, “if I could go back, I’d do it like this..or that”

So. Here’s the dilemma!
There’s a lot been said about the sad state for pilots in Canada. But how about the flying training… really? As mentioned earlier, all I wanna do with it is, get my licenses, ratings and get the hell out! I also admit, that I am slightly biased towards doing my flight training in Canada, reason being it’ll allow me the luxury of financing with some to spare!...just in case.
On the other hand, throwing caution to the winds (regards financing), and sticking to higher standards of training (@OZ) seems a better option. They say, “cheaper’s not always the better!”

Anyone open to shed some light on this?....would be great, and goes w/o saying, extremely welcome!

Thanks in advance.

[herc driver]

Ross 11

Something like this definitely requires research and careful thought before you "jump in with both feet". You have a lot of money at stake as well.

It seems, once you distill much of the insults & fighting out of this thread, that there are three areas of concern for you (and this thread I believe) when thinking about flying in canada.

1: The quality of flight training in Canada
2: The state of the low salaries that some people believe that Canadian pilots are willing to accept to work as commercial or airline pilots (in the charters or majors).
3: The international "value" of the Canadian pilot licence (Commercial, Airline, MIFR etc ...)

That is what people seem to be arguing about in the last few pages. Decide for yourself I suppose.

It sounds as if you only wish to seek flying training in Canada and not employment as a commercial or airline pilot after your training is complete. I can only assume that you will return home to India and begin your career from there. So lets forget about point #2.

The international value of a Canadian pilot licence - I am in no position to comment on that issue. I simply don't know enough about the topic to make any recommendations. As both military and civilian I have flown all over the world and I can safely say that I am as good as they come from any country. I am not the best and neither am I the worst. As a Canadian pilot I am a competent and skilled professional who is proud of his abilities. You'll have to ask someone else about point #3.

So, lets focus on point #1. Flying training in Canada.

If you ask 5 different people their thoughts on this matter I guarantee that you will receive a half a dozen different opinions and responses.

Like any industry there are good training institutions and bad ones. Despite government (Transport Canada) regulations you will always find schools of dubious quality. I am sure some of the horror stories mentioned in this thread are indeed true. I am sure that there are some very questionable, shady flying clubs that operate on a "fly by night" ethic. You just need to make sure that you enroll in a reputable school.

However, that being said, know that there are some very reputable flying training schools in Canada. Just like in any country in the EU, in the USA or any country for that matter ... there are good schools and bad schools. Canada is no different. There are several media sources (Wings magazine for example) that provides a list of very reputable flying schools in Canada.

I do not think that you have much to worry about if you are concerned about point #1 - Flying Training in Canada. It's as good as anywhere else in the world. You just have to choose your school very carefully just like any other country. We do not have a monopoly on excellence by any means, and neither does any other country for that matter. Your risk is just the same as if you were planning on conducting your training in the UK or in France for example.

Hope that helps and good luck in your search.

[spencer101]

Have you looked into the Moncton Flight College?

www.mfc.nb.ca/about.html (http://www.mfc.nb.ca/about.html)

They offer training in Canada to get a European JAA licence.