ATC Slots - an extra hour in bed please?

[missioncontrol]

Hello EuroControl:

Last few mornings across Europe:

Weather beautiful CAVOK, light winds excellent vis.

Slot delays allocated and remote holding of an hour or so on the ground.

Any chance you could post the allocated departure slots the night before on a website or something then pax and crew could check the night before and turn up at an appropriate time for check-in and pre-flight etc.?


Everyone could have an extra hour in bed in the morning instead of on the airplane.

Thanks.

[PPRuNe Radar]

The operator will get the slot almost as soon as the plan is filed (often in the very very early hours of the morning).

Everything after that is dynamic with revised slots, cancellations, etc, being dealt with as soon as they are calculated.

The operator has the information, and they are also the ones who have the relationship with the crews and pax ;) Quite rightly they aim for the original departure time since the slot situation can change very quickly and the 1 hour delay can suddenly disappear. That's not much good to the company though if you are still in your bed when you should be in the P1 seat :ok:

[Lou Scannon]

Wouldn't it work better if the Eurocontrol people got into work an hour or so earlier than they needed every day? It might not change anything but at least they would know how the crews felt, and perhaps do something about it.

[Flip Flop Flyer]

So airport and airway congestion, defunct radars, ATC on strike in France etc. is now a Eurocontrol problem?

SLOT delays are a fact of life, deal with it. Slap your Flap Operator, if you must, if that'll de-stress you.

[Eva San]

Wouldn't it work better if the Eurocontrol people got into work an hour or so earlier than they needed every day? It might not change anything but at least they would know how the crews felt, and perhaps do something about it.

Getting to the airport one hour ealier than "needed" is a good opportunity for the crew to ask for a ready message ... Then they can get an improvement that they won't be able to make because they were not really ready yet and then get another slot, let's say a two hours delay... And then another good opportunity to complain !!!:D

But I guess the first thing that you probably need, is to understand the purpose of slots, which is your own safety !!!

[FlapsOne]

Doesn't happen in the states.

How on earth have we allowed things to be so monumentously screwed up over the last 10 years?

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

The "dynamic" nature of slots is, IMHO, the biggest part of the problem. Even a slot over an hour away can suddenly become "push right now or you won't make it." If the slot was to stay fixed once issued, we could keep the pax in the terminal, and board at a suitable time to close up for the slot. Instead, we have to keep the passengers on board. Would it be too difficult to have slots that do not change unless a ready message is sent? At least if a ready message has been sent, the crew and operator have agreed to keep the pax on board.

[M609]

CB FO: That could be possible, but then we would not use airspace in a optimal way. Let's say you have a slot at 10:20, and you miss it, your slot along the way gets released to someone else. In your proposed system, that slot would not be released, period.

Less, efficient, more delays......

[DoMePlease]

It may be counterproductive to wake you up in the middle of your sleep to tell you to report later as well, me thinks.

[benedictus]

Carlton,
you do have the option of asking for no improvement on a slot, basically this will result in any improvement being offered to you, if you choose to accept it then you can, or you can reject it if you feel that you will not make the improvement.

[missioncontrol]

If EuroControl is so great then why can this happen.....?


Bizarre situation 1:

I have experienced pushing and starting one hour early (ie before the allocated slot) due to a translation/misunderstanding by ATC and ourselves.

Upon reaching the holding point we argued about why we had been allowed to push if the slot was not for another hour and then being allowed to takeoff anyway.

Bizarre situation 2:

Flying to BRU windy night earlier this year, all the holds around London are filling up and heard that inbound A/C was advised of delays of more than 30 mins.

Arrive at BRU, then get given outbound slot of scheduled time of departure!

We take extra fuel and then hey guess what.....we get to LAM and then hold for 40 minutes.

Qu: Why let us take off when it is patently obvious that everyone is holding for more than 30 minutes?

I'm off back to sleep zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Blue skies!

[Earthmover]

Seriously folks, I know this is a complex issue but (and there's probably a simple answer to this) - you get a slot and arrive, say 40 minutes late at your destination and as you taxi in you are passed your outbound slot by GMC and it's 20 minutes away, and it's utterly impossible to meet. I've always been baffled as to how the system fails to recognise that it delayed you outbound when allocating a return slot.

Or is it for our Ops to sort out with Flow Control and the ommission is in their hands?

Whatever, it's very frustrating

[M609]

Slots are given based on the EOBT on the FPL your ops have filed, if they forget to delay it, it's not CFMUs fault!

It might be frustrating, but I have experienced (several times, simmilar situations) that a flight lands late, and I give heads up regarding a CTOT on the outbound leg ca. 25 min later.

I offer to delay the FPL for them (not my job, but quiet afternoon), and is told not to, because they will make the slot. (!)

1:30 later, they are stil at the hold, engines running because they missed the slot, and got bumped by CFMU! (And yes, I was ready to give them the 5/10min leeway, but they missed that too)

[PPRuNe Radar]

In my experience, most problems caused by slots lie with the company, or sometimes slack discipline or operational difficulties at the departure airfields.

Can't blame Eurocontrol who can only go on the data they are given. Crap in = crap out.

In the London area, airborne holding is the modus operandii to ensure that there is a full reservoir of aircraft to provide maximum arrival capacity on the runways. Hence the UK AIC stating that 20 minutes delay in the air can be expected as the norm. A LTCC Terminal Control ATCO can probably explain the theory in more depth :ok:

[chiglet]

One VERY big problem is that the "Airline" has a slot, but is delayed....due to tech, pax etc, and then doesn't file a DLA.... :mad: :mad:
watp,iktch

[Earthmover]

OK thanks M609, I did mean the omission was our Ops, actually - but it's cleared that one up for me! - I did have my suspicions, because it tended not to happen so much in a previous company.

I think a more 'detailed' call to our Ops is called for , not just including an ETA but a request to delay the return flight plan, as I pass overhead.

[Codman]

In a previous existence I clearly remember Wednesday morning Eastern Med departures at STD -10 mins with no slots only to be given 3,4, or 5 hour delays after FRA CFMU had cherrypicked the best for their own traffic. How can anyone say Eurocontrol is doing a worse job than that?! The worst delay I've experienced in 5 years on the line is an hour. I reckon the guys in BRU work hard and do a fine job.

If we insist on shoving so many a/c into the air what do we expect? Its down to crews, their Ops and Nav departments to be proactive in sorting the problems out where possible.

Cod

[SATCO]

Having worked very closely with CFMU back when they took control of the ECAC slot system back in '96, and as CFMU Liaison Officer for a major airport, the involvement of TACTCASA has actually BENEFITED everyone over the years.

I'd hate to go back to the days of 'remote' slot allocation (where each country worked it's own stuff out and had little regard for what was happening across the way in another place).

The slot allocation algorithm is very complex and takes account (as has quite rightly been said above), of the data supplied by the OPERATOR.

I am currently deliberating the whole 'early filing' thing with one AO and by demonstrating the system (including the use of RFI, REA, SWM etc), I have actually convinced them to stick to the rules so that we can ALL have a better day. (Besides which, of course, AO SLAs include the clause stipulating early filing is NOT to be practised).

Because of the complexity of both the slot allocation methodology AND the diverse airspace over the ECAC area, one operator's insisting on bending (or even breaking) the rules for DLA etc makes for a potential 'hell of a mess' when the FMPs are doing their best to be as equitable as able when 'exceptional circumstances' arise.

As for the extra hour in bed, TACTCASA proactively attempts to improve ANY delayed slot time so to call it all off for an hour when TACTCASA is trying to BIN that hour's delay is a very dodgy game to play.

SATCO

[jumpseater]

'I've always been baffled as to how the system fails to recognise that it delayed you outbound when allocating a return slot.'


Its primarily because the system is automated. The CFMU puter does not recognise your flights as a 'pair'. Therefore your outbound is dealt with completely separately in the system, and assumes your aircraft is already at the airport, ready to depart at the allocated slot time. Ideally your ops teams should be delaying your 'outbound' to reflect a realistic arrival time (based on your delayed departure), and turn at the airport in question. If that isn't done the slot sits there unused as you 'miss' it. If ops delay the flight plan, that inappropriate slot can be reallocated by CFMU to another operator and everyone moves forward in the queue.

Also ops can ask/request an RFI (Request for improvement), and this is the highest priority they can request.
The Drivers however can ask for a REA (Ready) to local ATC, which has a higher priority over the RFI. Don't ask for one unless you're locked and loaded though, coz if you miss it, you very quickly get taken off the CFMU's xmas card list!

[Idunno]

FlapsOne:

Doesn't happen in the states.
Nah...they have a much better 'system' over there.
Everyone just starts whenever they feel like it - and then spends two hours queueing at the holding point.
Much better. :yuk:
Not.

[eyeinthesky]

Further to the discussions on inbounds becoming outbounds:

I have personal experience of contacting a well-known UK charter operator to advise them we could bring the slot forward from the 1-hour delay to approx 20 mins. The response was: "No thanks, we've had technical problems on the inbound and we won't be able to get out before the original slot time". So the airline hides behind an ATC slot to cover for its own failings. No delay message or anything placed. Result: he gets away when it actually suits him, and someone who complies with the rules gets a delay when they could have gone earlier

[Lon More]

I agree with SATCO; the people at CMFU do a pretty good job.

I too rermember the old days when the job was done at each Centre. Normally by a Controller with no extra training and, on night duties, in addition to his job as a controller. It was very hit and miss, juggling about 12 lists on occassion, and very dependant on goodwill. Operators pulled a lot of tricks to avoid delays ( e.g. a certain large German charter Operator avoided the French restrictions for flights from EDDK/EDDL via NOR by joining at NIK - this worked for a while until the Traffic Route Orientation Scheme was introduced. Many disregarded slot times completely, knowing the chance was they would be accepted and that any penalty incurred would be for someone else later on.

Up to date traffic forecast per sector is available on line and, in co-ordination with the local flow manager the flow rate per sector is frequently adjusted to accomodate extra flights, knowing that we can level-cap certain city-pairs (at Maastricht, this was the reason why flights from London TMA to Düsseldorf TMA are sometimes restricted to max. FL290). This has a knock-on effect on traffic reducing delays over a much longer period. Of course, sometimes, due to shortage of staff, equipment deficiencies etc. it is neccessary to reduce the rate, but this guarantees a visit to Head of Ops. the next morning for a rather uncomfortable interview. (This never happens when we accept more traffic which speaks volumes about the quality of some ATC management)

Of course it is impossible to keep everyone happy. In one case a biz-jet operator out of Norwich was (is) very unhappy with a system that requires that he flies due South to join the system at CLN rather than route through military airspace and join at SPY, his tirade against the system blocking the freq. for a couple of minutes (very professional NOT).

Lon More

here before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus a Rigger.

[SATCO]

My point precisely - rule breaking, or if you want a more cushioned excuse, 'non-compliance with operating procedures' makes a mess of it for everyone else.

The sooner we all start singing from the same hymn sheet, the sooner things will get better and the aim noted many years ago by CFMU to have ATC slot times "a thing of the past" may become a step nearer.

SATCO

[trainer too 2]

The system is getting better and better taking the increase of movements into account.

Doesn't happen in the states.

The only thing they have better organised is one single sky. For that you have to beat up the patriotic outdated governement thinking around Europe. Add a single Sky and you will find out that the European system will beat the US hands down. :ok:

[You splitter]

To clarify a couple of points:

1. Slots are issued 2 hours prior to the EOBT. However you can see a forecast of what your slot MAY be once the FPL is in. This means that if you can see a possible one hour delay you can route around the airspace if you think that will be benifical. Sometimes however if the delay is due restrictions at the destination or departure airfield you have no choice but to live with it.

2. The RFI message is the default setting of any flightplan with an issued slot. Basically if a better slot becomes availalable for you it will automatcially be given to you without having to file an RFI.

3. The system has to be told by use of the SWM message that you want to be asked before being offered a better slot.

4. Once the aircraft doors are shut then the crew can request a REA (READY) message be filed. This can only be done by by ATC. Aircraft operators can not ask this themselves. Basically it tells the system you are fully ready to go as soon as they can find a better slot for you.

5. Yes Ops must delay your ongoing flightplan but as always this requires good clear information. Not always easy especially for us smaller boys without ACARS or flight tracing. For example if you have a slot delay for the first departure of the day, and we delay all your subsequent flightplans, then your first slot gets cancelled and off you go on your merry way....well you can imagine. We have to cancel all the delayed plans and refile, now they count as late filed, which means end of the queue when any other slots are dished out. Also if your ETA has you inbound at say 1020 and you have an outbound slot of 1055 what do we do. If we delay to give you more time you lose your place in the queue and could end up with a 1300 slot! Imagine you hold for 10 mins. By the time we realise your now on the ground and trying to turn round you have only thrity minutes. Its juggling guys and yes sometimes balls get dropped. If its tight then talk to each other to see what can be done.

Still much prefer this to the days of calling indivdual FMU's. And still believe generally delays are less in total these days.

[hapzim]

An update on "you splitter" at LGW atc ask for your company to place a ready message.

A question to all. Why at LGW do most operators (the reason we are given) file EOBT for -20mins on STD. Crew report -1hr, pax expect doors to close at STD (thats the time on the ticket mate) or later if still shopping or in the bar.

Usually end up getting ops to file new EOBT as lucky to close up by STD, increasing crew, ops and atc workload etc. Telephone companies make a few bucks though.

EOBT should imho be filed for STD that gives the system time to work. :8

[eyeinthesky]

Of course it is impossible to keep everyone happy. In one case a biz-jet operator out of Norwich was (is) very unhappy with a system that requires that he flies due South to join the system at CLN rather than route through military airspace and join at SPY, his tirade against the system blocking the freq. for a couple of minutes (very professional NOT).

Still is. I had a chat with the Chief Pilot last year when I was at Norwich and tried to explain the intricacies of the system and why he couldn't do what he planned. I didn't get very far, I'm afraid. Unlike his employer, his attitude was less than 'Bootiful'!

[SATCO]

hapzim is quite right in stating "EOBT should imho be filed for STD that gives the system time to work".

That's very important - and it goes a long way to ensuring an equitable allocation system.

AOs must also remember, of course, that FILING AN EOBT WHICH IS NOT REFLECTIVE OF THE OPERATOR'S TIMETABLE is AGAINST THE RULES.

The true effects of such 'through the back door' tricks can be seen when ETFMS kicks in and flights which are out of tolerance with the EXPECTED situation (which is itself a contributory mechanism towards attempting to improve slot delays) are NOT actually airborne at all, or ARE airborne but are out of the expected sequence. This then has a knock-on effect for everyone still on the ground waiting for that slot improvement.

Once again it's a case of 'if we all play the game by the rules, we'll all reap the rewards'.

SATCO

[hapzim]

LGW clearence delievery needs a link to the pax departure screens, compare EOBT's with these and have a QUIET word with the offending operators.:E

Might get a chance to drink my cup of tea.

[G-MANN]

The RFI message is the default setting of any flightplan with an issued slot. Basically if a better slot becomes availalable for you it will automatcially be given to you without having to file an RFI.

Sometimes i feel i really have to disagree with the above statement!!

We sit and try to improve slots by rerouting to avoid regulations and improve our operators on time performance.

Of course this is standard however there are times when we just fail to find an alternative route.

Now our 'RFI' msg is normally in as soon as a slot is issued just so that we get the point across to the guys at CFMU that we are happy to take any improvement. 9 times out of 10 we call CFMU as soon as we get a call from the Captain and we get an improvement straight away. Why does it take a phone call to get an improvement???

G-MANN

[You splitter]

Ok I see your point G-MANN.
All I can say is that the system is designed so that the RFI is already in and there should be no need to file an RFI when you have a slot. If something better comes along for you then it will be allocated automatically.

Maybe someone from the great institution itself can confirm??

With regards to making the call to the CFMU I agree sometimes its what you need to do. A computer can never give you the same interaction and use a bit of common sense as a humman being can.

For example if you have a two hour delay that will impact into closing hours of an airfield, a quick call to the BRU boys and girls can make them understand that it would be better if you took priority over somone operating to an H24 airfield. At their discretion of course.

:ok:

[superste]

The points 1-5 made by Your Splitter are spot on.

5. Yes Ops must delay your ongoing flightplan but as always this requires good clear information. Not always easy especially for us smaller boys without ACARS or flight tracing. For example if you have a slot delay for the first departure of the day, and we delay all your subsequent flightplans, then your first slot gets cancelled and off you go on your merry way....well you can imagine. We have to cancel all the delayed plans and refile, now they count as late filed, which means end of the queue when any other slots are dished out. Also if your ETA has you inbound at say 1020 and you have an outbound slot of 1055 what do we do. If we delay to give you more time you lose your place in the queue and could end up with a 1300 slot! Imagine you hold for 10 mins. By the time we realise your now on the ground and trying to turn round you have only thrity minutes. Its juggling guys and yes sometimes balls get dropped. If its tight then talk to each other to see what can be done.

This is a key point when an unrealistic slot is held for the outbound.
Most airlines attempt to undercut ground times when delayed and do not want to risk delaying a potentially achievable slot that would extend the ground time further.
Shorthall Airlines also rely on receiving movement messages ASAP after flights are airbourne.
If the Airline Ops do not have an accurate ETA, the chances of the "ball being dropped" are obviously increased.

As for filing flight plans early, a big no no.:mad:

[WHBM]

I have a difficult time explaining this one to my non-aviation colleagues.

Most of the business day flights operate the same every weekday. The times are published months in advance and purport to be to the nearest 5 minutes. Most days the weather is satisfactory and operations are normal.

So how is it that "things" (ie slot times) are also not organised months beforehand. Yes, those of us on the inside know some of the many details that can derail things. But if I have a morning meeting here in London with colleagues coming from various UK points, at least one, often several, and occasionally all, can be delayed by "ATC restrictions" on the first flight of the day.

After all, there is a railway timetable published on the same basis. And like aviation things sometimes go wrong and need individual attention to be sorted out. But if they scheduled more trains than could physically be accommodated through the various junctions or at the terminus platforms, or only started thinking about how they were going to do things the night before, the operators there would be regarded as morons. They (believe it or not) don't do this, but know their game plan well in advance. Why can't aviation do the same.

[SATCO]

This thread is getting very interesting whilst complex! I have a couple of extra bits to add, if I may?

First of all, 'You Splitter' et al, the guys at Brussels AND at the local FMPs are able to add in extra slots on an occasional basis, depending on exceptional circumstances. It's quite right that it's no good being belted with a 2 hour slot delay (and I've personally seen DOUBLE FIGURES in the past!) when you can go now. So, as you rightly say, the computer has to be dispensed with, in this case TACTCASA, and a HUMAN can look at the situation, make a traffic impact assessment and (usually) bypass the outrageous, computer-generated delay.

As for WHBM, I agree, but that's all very 'ideal world' stuff I'm afraid. Traffic and delay predictions for tomorrow, for example, are already KNOWN to IFPS and CFMU, but the dynamic situation changes so rapidly that to forewarn operators of the expected slot so far in advance of operations would be unrealistic.

Overall though, as I noted previously, if we can all play the game by the rules, CFMU will be better armed to push on with its aim of removing slot delays altogether, a sentiment echoed way back in 1996.

Almost ten years on and some of the operators seem discontent to subscribe to THAT ideal world scenario.

SATCO

[flowman]

WHBM
The short answer is "the weather".
The North Atlantic Tracks vary according to the wind. The arrival times of the flights on those tracks vary according to the wind.
The North Atlantic traffic flow contains a large number of flights all of which have a significant impact on their aerodromes of destination. They also have a significant impact on the sectors they fly through.
This traffic cannot be slotted, it is coming whether you like it or not. That means if they fill up a sector all you domestic or internal European flights get what's left.
That scenario varies from day to day, can only be planned as far ahead as an accurate forecast can be given (i.e. day minus one) and the North Atlantic tracks can be published.
Now, chuck into that a few CBs, a few ATC staff shortages, a few ATC technical problems, environmental restrictions, taxiway closures, flight checkers, fog, snow or what have you and you can see that even the best laid plan is going to be out of date before lunch time on the day of operation.
That completely ignores the airlines' own operational problems. Who ever heard of a train waiting for a missing passenger? Or offloading all the bags. What train has to satisfy as many safety checks as an aircraft pre-flight?
I am happy to answer all the comments above if those with a genuine gripe want to mail me directly.
Compared to life pre-CFMU though, the situation is undeniably better.
And thank you to all contributors to this thread who have posted words of support for FMD. Its a sh!t job but very occasionally rewarding (about the 30th of every month actually!).