ATC Slots - an extra hour in bed please?
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ATC Slots - an extra hour in bed please?
Hello EuroControl:
Last few mornings across Europe:
Weather beautiful CAVOK, light winds excellent vis.
Slot delays allocated and remote holding of an hour or so on the ground.
Any chance you could post the allocated departure slots the night before on a website or something then pax and crew could check the night before and turn up at an appropriate time for check-in and pre-flight etc.?
Everyone could have an extra hour in bed in the morning instead of on the airplane.
Thanks.
Last few mornings across Europe:
Weather beautiful CAVOK, light winds excellent vis.
Slot delays allocated and remote holding of an hour or so on the ground.
Any chance you could post the allocated departure slots the night before on a website or something then pax and crew could check the night before and turn up at an appropriate time for check-in and pre-flight etc.?
Everyone could have an extra hour in bed in the morning instead of on the airplane.
Thanks.
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The operator will get the slot almost as soon as the plan is filed (often in the very very early hours of the morning).
Everything after that is dynamic with revised slots, cancellations, etc, being dealt with as soon as they are calculated.
The operator has the information, and they are also the ones who have the relationship with the crews and pax
Quite rightly they aim for the original departure time since the slot situation can change very quickly and the 1 hour delay can suddenly disappear. That's not much good to the company though if you are still in your bed when you should be in the P1 seat 
Everything after that is dynamic with revised slots, cancellations, etc, being dealt with as soon as they are calculated.
The operator has the information, and they are also the ones who have the relationship with the crews and pax
Quite rightly they aim for the original departure time since the slot situation can change very quickly and the 1 hour delay can suddenly disappear. That's not much good to the company though if you are still in your bed when you should be in the P1 seat
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Wouldn't it work better if the Eurocontrol people got into work an hour or so earlier than they needed every day? It might not change anything but at least they would know how the crews felt, and perhaps do something about it.
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Lou
So airport and airway congestion, defunct radars, ATC on strike in France etc. is now a Eurocontrol problem?
SLOT delays are a fact of life, deal with it. Slap your Flap Operator, if you must, if that'll de-stress you.
SLOT delays are a fact of life, deal with it. Slap your Flap Operator, if you must, if that'll de-stress you.
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Wouldn't it work better if the Eurocontrol people got into work an hour or so earlier than they needed every day? It might not change anything but at least they would know how the crews felt, and perhaps do something about it.
But I guess the first thing that you probably need, is to understand the purpose of slots, which is your own safety !!!
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The "dynamic" nature of slots is, IMHO, the biggest part of the problem. Even a slot over an hour away can suddenly become "push right now or you won't make it." If the slot was to stay fixed once issued, we could keep the pax in the terminal, and board at a suitable time to close up for the slot. Instead, we have to keep the passengers on board. Would it be too difficult to have slots that do not change unless a ready message is sent? At least if a ready message has been sent, the crew and operator have agreed to keep the pax on board.
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CB FO: That could be possible, but then we would not use airspace in a optimal way. Let's say you have a slot at 10:20, and you miss it, your slot along the way gets released to someone else. In your proposed system, that slot would not be released, period.
Less, efficient, more delays......
Less, efficient, more delays......
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Carlton,
you do have the option of asking for no improvement on a slot, basically this will result in any improvement being offered to you, if you choose to accept it then you can, or you can reject it if you feel that you will not make the improvement.
you do have the option of asking for no improvement on a slot, basically this will result in any improvement being offered to you, if you choose to accept it then you can, or you can reject it if you feel that you will not make the improvement.
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If EuroControl is so great then why can this happen.....?
Bizarre situation 1:
I have experienced pushing and starting one hour early (ie before the allocated slot) due to a translation/misunderstanding by ATC and ourselves.
Upon reaching the holding point we argued about why we had been allowed to push if the slot was not for another hour and then being allowed to takeoff anyway.
Bizarre situation 2:
Flying to BRU windy night earlier this year, all the holds around London are filling up and heard that inbound A/C was advised of delays of more than 30 mins.
Arrive at BRU, then get given outbound slot of scheduled time of departure!
We take extra fuel and then hey guess what.....we get to LAM and then hold for 40 minutes.
Qu: Why let us take off when it is patently obvious that everyone is holding for more than 30 minutes?
I'm off back to sleep zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Blue skies!
Bizarre situation 1:
I have experienced pushing and starting one hour early (ie before the allocated slot) due to a translation/misunderstanding by ATC and ourselves.
Upon reaching the holding point we argued about why we had been allowed to push if the slot was not for another hour and then being allowed to takeoff anyway.
Bizarre situation 2:
Flying to BRU windy night earlier this year, all the holds around London are filling up and heard that inbound A/C was advised of delays of more than 30 mins.
Arrive at BRU, then get given outbound slot of scheduled time of departure!
We take extra fuel and then hey guess what.....we get to LAM and then hold for 40 minutes.
Qu: Why let us take off when it is patently obvious that everyone is holding for more than 30 minutes?
I'm off back to sleep zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Blue skies!
Humus Motor
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Seriously folks, I know this is a complex issue but (and there's probably a simple answer to this) - you get a slot and arrive, say 40 minutes late at your destination and as you taxi in you are passed your outbound slot by GMC and it's 20 minutes away, and it's utterly impossible to meet. I've always been baffled as to how the system fails to recognise that it delayed you outbound when allocating a return slot.
Or is it for our Ops to sort out with Flow Control and the ommission is in their hands?
Whatever, it's very frustrating
Or is it for our Ops to sort out with Flow Control and the ommission is in their hands?
Whatever, it's very frustrating
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Slots are given based on the EOBT on the FPL your ops have filed, if they forget to delay it, it's not CFMUs fault!
It might be frustrating, but I have experienced (several times, simmilar situations) that a flight lands late, and I give heads up regarding a CTOT on the outbound leg ca. 25 min later.
I offer to delay the FPL for them (not my job, but quiet afternoon), and is told not to, because they will make the slot. (!)
1:30 later, they are stil at the hold, engines running because they missed the slot, and got bumped by CFMU! (And yes, I was ready to give them the 5/10min leeway, but they missed that too)
It might be frustrating, but I have experienced (several times, simmilar situations) that a flight lands late, and I give heads up regarding a CTOT on the outbound leg ca. 25 min later.
I offer to delay the FPL for them (not my job, but quiet afternoon), and is told not to, because they will make the slot. (!)
1:30 later, they are stil at the hold, engines running because they missed the slot, and got bumped by CFMU! (And yes, I was ready to give them the 5/10min leeway, but they missed that too)
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In my experience, most problems caused by slots lie with the company, or sometimes slack discipline or operational difficulties at the departure airfields.
Can't blame Eurocontrol who can only go on the data they are given. Crap in = crap out.
In the London area, airborne holding is the modus operandii to ensure that there is a full reservoir of aircraft to provide maximum arrival capacity on the runways. Hence the UK AIC stating that 20 minutes delay in the air can be expected as the norm. A LTCC Terminal Control ATCO can probably explain the theory in more depth
Can't blame Eurocontrol who can only go on the data they are given. Crap in = crap out.
In the London area, airborne holding is the modus operandii to ensure that there is a full reservoir of aircraft to provide maximum arrival capacity on the runways. Hence the UK AIC stating that 20 minutes delay in the air can be expected as the norm. A LTCC Terminal Control ATCO can probably explain the theory in more depth
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OK thanks M609, I did mean the omission was our Ops, actually - but it's cleared that one up for me! - I did have my suspicions, because it tended not to happen so much in a previous company.
I think a more 'detailed' call to our Ops is called for , not just including an ETA but a request to delay the return flight plan, as I pass overhead.
I think a more 'detailed' call to our Ops is called for , not just including an ETA but a request to delay the return flight plan, as I pass overhead.
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In a previous existence I clearly remember Wednesday morning Eastern Med departures at STD -10 mins with no slots only to be given 3,4, or 5 hour delays after FRA CFMU had cherrypicked the best for their own traffic. How can anyone say Eurocontrol is doing a worse job than that?! The worst delay I've experienced in 5 years on the line is an hour. I reckon the guys in BRU work hard and do a fine job.
If we insist on shoving so many a/c into the air what do we expect? Its down to crews, their Ops and Nav departments to be proactive in sorting the problems out where possible.
Cod
If we insist on shoving so many a/c into the air what do we expect? Its down to crews, their Ops and Nav departments to be proactive in sorting the problems out where possible.
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Having worked very closely with CFMU back when they took control of the ECAC slot system back in '96, and as CFMU Liaison Officer for a major airport, the involvement of TACTCASA has actually BENEFITED everyone over the years.
I'd hate to go back to the days of 'remote' slot allocation (where each country worked it's own stuff out and had little regard for what was happening across the way in another place).
The slot allocation algorithm is very complex and takes account (as has quite rightly been said above), of the data supplied by the OPERATOR.
I am currently deliberating the whole 'early filing' thing with one AO and by demonstrating the system (including the use of RFI, REA, SWM etc), I have actually convinced them to stick to the rules so that we can ALL have a better day. (Besides which, of course, AO SLAs include the clause stipulating early filing is NOT to be practised).
Because of the complexity of both the slot allocation methodology AND the diverse airspace over the ECAC area, one operator's insisting on bending (or even breaking) the rules for DLA etc makes for a potential 'hell of a mess' when the FMPs are doing their best to be as equitable as able when 'exceptional circumstances' arise.
As for the extra hour in bed, TACTCASA proactively attempts to improve ANY delayed slot time so to call it all off for an hour when TACTCASA is trying to BIN that hour's delay is a very dodgy game to play.
SATCO
I'd hate to go back to the days of 'remote' slot allocation (where each country worked it's own stuff out and had little regard for what was happening across the way in another place).
The slot allocation algorithm is very complex and takes account (as has quite rightly been said above), of the data supplied by the OPERATOR.
I am currently deliberating the whole 'early filing' thing with one AO and by demonstrating the system (including the use of RFI, REA, SWM etc), I have actually convinced them to stick to the rules so that we can ALL have a better day. (Besides which, of course, AO SLAs include the clause stipulating early filing is NOT to be practised).
Because of the complexity of both the slot allocation methodology AND the diverse airspace over the ECAC area, one operator's insisting on bending (or even breaking) the rules for DLA etc makes for a potential 'hell of a mess' when the FMPs are doing their best to be as equitable as able when 'exceptional circumstances' arise.
As for the extra hour in bed, TACTCASA proactively attempts to improve ANY delayed slot time so to call it all off for an hour when TACTCASA is trying to BIN that hour's delay is a very dodgy game to play.
SATCO
'I've always been baffled as to how the system fails to recognise that it delayed you outbound when allocating a return slot.'
Its primarily because the system is automated. The CFMU puter does not recognise your flights as a 'pair'. Therefore your outbound is dealt with completely separately in the system, and assumes your aircraft is already at the airport, ready to depart at the allocated slot time. Ideally your ops teams should be delaying your 'outbound' to reflect a realistic arrival time (based on your delayed departure), and turn at the airport in question. If that isn't done the slot sits there unused as you 'miss' it. If ops delay the flight plan, that inappropriate slot can be reallocated by CFMU to another operator and everyone moves forward in the queue.
Also ops can ask/request an RFI (Request for improvement), and this is the highest priority they can request.
The Drivers however can ask for a REA (Ready) to local ATC, which has a higher priority over the RFI. Don't ask for one unless you're locked and loaded though, coz if you miss it, you very quickly get taken off the CFMU's xmas card list!
Its primarily because the system is automated. The CFMU puter does not recognise your flights as a 'pair'. Therefore your outbound is dealt with completely separately in the system, and assumes your aircraft is already at the airport, ready to depart at the allocated slot time. Ideally your ops teams should be delaying your 'outbound' to reflect a realistic arrival time (based on your delayed departure), and turn at the airport in question. If that isn't done the slot sits there unused as you 'miss' it. If ops delay the flight plan, that inappropriate slot can be reallocated by CFMU to another operator and everyone moves forward in the queue.
Also ops can ask/request an RFI (Request for improvement), and this is the highest priority they can request.
The Drivers however can ask for a REA (Ready) to local ATC, which has a higher priority over the RFI. Don't ask for one unless you're locked and loaded though, coz if you miss it, you very quickly get taken off the CFMU's xmas card list!
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FlapsOne:
Nah...they have a much better 'system' over there.
Everyone just starts whenever they feel like it - and then spends two hours queueing at the holding point.
Much better.
Not.
Doesn't happen in the states.
Everyone just starts whenever they feel like it - and then spends two hours queueing at the holding point.
Much better.
Not.