Balloon crash

[on21]

Link below to a Balloon crash on Sunday in Kent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4086970.stm

[Omaha]

Yikes, I'm planning to do that in NZ when I go there. :uhoh:

See where there was another episode a good while back where a totally inexperienced pax was left in the basket on her own, I think the balloon took off cause of a freak gust of wind with only her onboard, can't be sure. She had to land the balloon herself which she managed to do successfully.

Still I suppose 100's, if not 1,000's of trips pass uneventfully.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Worth commenting that this was a pretty nasty crash - but still nobody was killed.

In terms of fatal accidents, hot air ballooning these days seems to be about as safe as it gets - at least in the public transport category.

G

[RevMan2]

Qte
In terms of fatal accidents, hot air ballooning these days seems to be about as safe as it gets - at least in the public transport category.
End Qte

We would be joking, of course......

Which statistical basis are we using for this statement, mate?
Absolute number of fatalities? Number or fatalities per flight? Number of fatalities per RPM? Number of passengers per APM?

Based on NTSB data for 1996 and 1997, hot air ballooning incidents occur 4 times more frequently per hour of operation than in General Aviation. And General Aviation certainly isn't "about as safe as it gets"...

[Genghis the Engineer]

My statistical basis is CAP 701, which is the UK survey of air accident statistics between 1990-1999, during which period there were total fatalities:-

Balloons: 1
Gliders: 42
Gyroplanes: 7
Microlights: 26
Non public transport helicopters <5,700kg: 30 crew, 19 pax.
Non public transport aeroplanes <5,700kg: 134 crew, 65 pax.

It does say in there that although hours for everything else are recorded (allowing a breakdown per flying hour) hours aren't recorded for balloons - making statistical comparison difficult. BUT, 1 fatality over 10 years, in a country with about 1900 registered balloons strikes me as pretty damned safe.

I don't have stats for any other country, but if the the US stats are as bad as you say, they perhaps aught to be looking at how things are done over here?

G

[Omaha]

What's New Zealand's safety record like then, does anyone know?

I thought it would be a good country for my first hot air balloon ride because of the scenery, the strength of the euro against the NZ dollar & above all cause I'm on hols & want to try loads of new, exciting experiences. :ok:

hot air ballooning incidents occur 4 times more frequently per hour of operation than in General Aviation.
But not that exciting! :\

[FlyingForFun]

Just an observation from the posts on this thread, since I don't have any of the source documents to hand. However.....

Genghis' statement that ballooning is "about as safe as it gets" is based on fatal accidents. RevMan's figures from the NTSB appear (correct me if I'm wrong, RevMan) to be based on accidents, not specifically on fatal accidents.

I don't know a whole lot about ballooning, but it doesn't strike me as a sport which involves very high speeds. Therefore, is it plausible that it does have a high accident rate, both in the US and the UK, but that the low speeds involved mean that the vast majority of these accidents are not fatal?

FFF
-----------------

[Genghis the Engineer]

Going back to my (UK) source document again, balloons in the UK over that 10 year period suffered 32 reportable accidents, causing 1 fatality and 20 serious injuries. That's over a fleet of about 1900 aircraft. So, that's 3% of balloon accidents causing a fatality.

Non transport fixed wing GA suffered 1963 reportable accidents, during 19% of which included injuries (both major and minor), and 6% included fatalities.


So, if you have an accident in a balloon, the odds are over three times higher of somebody being injured than in a FW, but the odds of someone actually being killed about half.

G

[Omaha]

Oh that's really great! :ugh:

So I've a good chance of ending up paralysed or permanently, seriously injured but alive to cope with it, is that it? :\

Hell, you can't wrap yourself in cotton wool either. :rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

I think the UK government stats are pretty good. Despite a total reliance on hot air for support, the present government is still floating along for a third flight (but hopefully the chief pilot will be out of a job soon). ;)

[BigEndBob]

Perhaps if the CAA get GA flight time to that of ballooning then accident rates will decrease.
How often do you see a balloon.

Having said that how often do you see a light aircraft ?.

[Yankee_Doodle_Floppy_Disk]

Omaha

What's New Zealand's safety record like then, does anyone know?

Hot Air Ballooning started in NZ in the early 70s. To my knowledge, there have been no fatal accidents, one serious accident involving 1 person sustaining a few crushed vertebrae. There have been a few incidents over the years, but nothing too hair-raising.

You are right about the scenery. There are several professional operators scattered throughout the country. There is one small limitation in NZ. The country is oriented roughly North/South and the prevailing wind is Westerly. However on a good calm morning this is not a problem.

Enjoy your stay in NZ.
Cheers

[mazzy1026]

Omaha - try not to be put off too much. Look at the statistics for fatal road/automobile accidents and they will far outweigh any aviation related one. Do we think about this when getting into our cars?

Maz

[Genghis the Engineer]

Per participant per year, I'm afraid that every analysis I've ever seen shows that cars are still safer than GA - although UK ballooning may beat that!

G

[mazzy1026]

Really? Thats what I get for not checking. I always thought that the stats for cars were much higher.............

[High Wing Drifter]

Mazzy,

The stats you refer too are related to commercial Airliner traffic. Even in that case, the apparent safety is not related to Airlines, but to the relatively large numbers of people per journey. If cars could take 30-350 people per journey, then the stats would probably favour car.

[dublinpilot]

HWD,

That doesn't really make sense.

If cars routinly carried 350 pax's, instead of the 1 or 2 that they usually carry, then each fatal car accident would probably result in 700 deaths, not just 2-4.

dp

[cubflyer]

Seems like accurate statistic are difficult to come by. But I think the overall view is that Ballooning is quite safe and good fun.
Someone said they didnt see many balloon, probably because most of them fly before you get up! Although there are also a lot flying in the evening, last couple of hours before sunset. THey dont fly in the middle of the day due to too much thermic acticvity and stronger winds, as well as hotter temperatures.
Gengis's inital comment about the safety included a statement- at least for public transport. I would imagine you would find that the sport balloonists have a better safety record than the public transport flights, at least in the UK. Ballooning is very weather dependant and many times you will find the sport balloonists deciding that the conditions are not right, so not flying, whereas the commercial operators are still flying. Some of this may be due to the commercial pilots having more experience, thus being able to land in worse conditions, but a lot of it due to the commercial pressure.
Not to mention the problems commercial balloonists have caused with landown relations, landing in crop and flying over animals (horses and pigs dont like balloons) that the sport pilots have been careful to avoid.
Im not a balloonist but have several friends who are and had some excellent flights with them. Definitly recommended.

[High Wing Drifter]

DP,

Depends how you look at it. If there were fewer car journeys then the traffic would be less dense and there would be commensurately fewer accidents (especially collisions). Also, car accidents are survivable; very few aircraft crashes are. You could also look at it the other way, what if the same number of people flew but with only 1 or 2 PAX per flight?

:O

[dublinpilot]

Ah, I see where you are coming from. More paxs per car=fewer cars=empty roads=less accidents.

Point taken.

[mazzy1026]

Yes, I had a think about this on the way home from work, and I believe that I was thinking of commercial airlines. I have been involved in two incidents so far in a car, neither of which resulted in serious injury - just a big excess bill. I would say that minor problems with a car may be dismissible, for example if you have a flat tyre, you just pull over and change it, whereas if you have one in flight, it can be very dangerous, even more so for a commercial airliner, where we have 350 people on board.

Examples only, but they illustrate my point (hopefully).

Regards,

Maz.

[Omaha]

Thanks guys

Even though I'm not heading till December I just got most of my ground itinerary sorted yesterday. Looks like the company I'm going with run the balloon trip from Christchurch (one thing exciting about the place). Hope I'll be able to fit it in cause I've two trips running from Christchurch, the TranzAlpine Railway & of course Hanmer Springs. I believe one is supposed to do it early in the morning before the atmosphere heats up & it gets lumpy & bumpy up there. A westerly wind blowing from Christchurch will be no bad thing, if it was a friggin easterly the next bit of land I might spot could be South America. ;)

Looks like I'm going to need a rest after this holiday. :O

[G-KEST]

Omaha,
I really do think you got your easterly and westerly reversed. There was a tragic balloon accident near Christchurch, NZ a few years ago when a commercial rides balloon ditched some distance offshore when unable to land before being drifted out to sea in a westerly wind. The pilot had a reputation of pushing his luck a little probably due to commercial pressure. He learned the hard way that liberties are not to be taken with passengers lives.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Omaha]

G-KEST

Thank you for that information. Do you know the name of the commercial operation he worked for?

Why are you so angry about it mate, looks like it must have affected you personally. :confused:

[G-KEST]

Omaha -

Before I retired in 1998 I had been head of the operational regulation of general aviation at the CAA for nearly 12 years.

Back in the late 1980's there was a balloon accident in the UK where a passenger broke her back and was paralysed. Arguably the weather conditions were marginal; but in any case it would have been hard to avoid an almost invisible set of telephone lines since the poles were hidden in trees. The accident was not reported at the time to either the AAIB or the CAA so no investigative action took place before it was outside the statute of limitations due to the time delay.

At that time there was no commercial ballooning in the UK and no CPL(B) so definately no public transport in the form of paying for a passenger flight. The operator was not insured so the passenger got no compensation as the operator was the proverbial "man of straw" so not worth sueing in the civil courts.

As a result I ramrodded through a proposal to enable properly regulated and legal commercial ballooning which led to the CPL(B), transport category balloon CofA's and a balloon AOC system.

For the last 15 or so years there has been around 60,000 passenger flights each year, largely free of incident and still less of injury. Getting on for a million passengers flown and but one sad fatality, to the best of my recollection, so an enviable safety record This as a result of the BBAC and the commercial balloon operators association efforts along with the oversight provided by the CAA; though no doubt good fortune had a part to play as in all forms of aviation.

The NZ pilot involved had, it would seem, a notorious reputation for flying passengers in virtually any conditions. Probably in the dreadful interest of making as much money as was possible. A tragedy resulted.

The NZ CAA has now tightened the strings in this aspect of what they term "adventure aviation" so a repeat is unlikely.

Hope this clears up the reason for my passion on the subject.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :* :* :(

[Omaha]

Indeed it does sir.

'Up, up and Away' are the operators I will be using should I be able to squeeze it in. Wonder did said pilot work for that joint.

I suppose if one wants to indulge in these type of experiences they have to accept there is an element of risk.

[RomeoAlfa]

Omaha,so what is your impression?I hope you tried NZ ballooning succesfully?

[RomeoAlfa]

Why?Too many impressions abt ballooning?