Distress Flares on board

[Gugnunc]

I'm about to do a VFR tour of the Western Isles (flight plan, Island hugging etc), and I'm getting together a few survival kit items. I can source life jackets, and I'm trying to get a handheld transceiver.

The cost of a full life raft or ELT seems a bit prohibitive for what is just a weekend trip, but I've seen some reasonably priced Distress Flare packs for sale on some boating web sites.

Does anyone either carry flares while flying at the moment - or know the legal/practical requiremnts of on-board pyrotechnics?

All I can find in the books is a requirement to carry parachute flares if flying a helicopter at night!

Thanks

[2Donkeys]

The cost of a full life raft or ELT seems a bit prohibitive

At least the flares should mark where the bodies are to be found.

2D

A survival suit and/or dinghy would be much higher up the list than flares IMHO.

[Gugnunc]

Ah yes, but if you are going to play the money no object game then a turboprop twin and an IR trumps the survival suit and the dinghy.

I'm looking for some cost effective (and for that matter, lightweight) additions to a good weather emergency kit where the maximum water crossing is 10nm.

Aw shucks. Make that a 4 engined turboprop with a Sea King in attendance.

[2Donkeys]

Unless you seriously intend to bob up and down in the water clutching your flares, I would still say that they are a total waste of your time and money.

Consider renting a dinghy.

2D

[effortless]

Flares are so sixties.:}

[dublinpilot]

The problem I'd see, is actually exiting the aircraft, and managing to bring the flares with you.

Then when you get into the water, you will quickly loose your body head, and start to shiver uncontrollably. By the time the rescue services arrive, and you want to use the flares, you'll probably have already dropped them, as you hands will no longer function properly, and if you haven't dropped them, you are almost guaranteed not to be able to use them. The cold will take away the function of your hands very quickly.

2d's is on the right track. Rent life raft. It will probably not cost much more to rent, than a couple of flares will cost to buy, and significantly improve your survival chances.

I'm sure someone else will be able to point you in the right direction if you decide to rent a life raft instead. Perhaps a local school or club would rent you theirs?

dp

[2Donkeys]

Rent one from SEMS Aerosafe in Basildon.

They do a good deal and can also supply all manner of other survival gear, including flares if you insist.

They looked after me very well for my Transatlantic trip.

2D

[RatherBeFlying]

If I'm going into the drink in anything cooler than the bathtub, a survival suit is the first item as it will enable me to deploy and get into the dinghy.

A survival suit gives you a decent chance in case the dinghy does not work out, as does happen from time to time.

A portable waterproof EPIRB in the survival suit is the number two item.

Put on survival suit before boarding a/c -- leave unzipped as much as possible until engine croaks.

Give a thought to sea conditions if ditching is a possibility; there is a big difference in survival probabilities in a calm swell and whitecaps:uhoh:

Spend some time with the maps. If the crossing is shorter than twice your glide at altitude and the terrain is suitable, you can plan it so that you will not get wet if the engine fails.

Remember that the turnaround point depends on the wind and that minimum sink downwind may go considerably farther than best glide upwind.

[2Donkeys]

a survival suit is the first item as it will enable me to deploy and get into the dinghy.

I know what you mean, but a note of caution is worthwhile here.

If you are a lithe fit young thing, you may well be able to haul yourself into a Dinghy when dressed in a wringing wet set of everyday clothes. If you can achieve this feat, you may even be able to manage the same trick when dressed in a heavy and cumbersome Survival suit.

Unfortunately, if you are a bit of a porker, or a bit past your prime, a Blobby suit may well put a stop to any chance you have of getting into your dinghy.

There are techniques (apart from dieting) that can help. Practice is vital.

2D

[Gertrude the Wombat]

OK, so a 10nm crossing means you're never further than 5nm from land. A distance which you can glide from a plausible height for a light aircraft. So just do your sums before you set out and make sure you're always flying high enough when over the water :) :) :)

[FTAOD: this was not meant to be serious advice.]

[RatherBeFlying]

Unfortunately, if you are a bit of a porker, or a bit past your prime, a Blobby suit may well put a stop to any chance you have of getting into your dinghy. A decent boarding ladder makes a big difference: Winslow Liferafts (http://www.winslowliferaft.com/)

[Sunfish]

Bugger! Gertrude beat me to it! Best safety item is 5000 feet of Altitude then you should be able to glide what? 10 Miles? I think you can get this in a small aluminium can from Sporty's

[pilotwolf]

I don't know the cost of hiring a raft for the weekend but having just 're-flared' the boat I know that for a costal pack of flares, ie 2 rockets/2 handheld/2 smoke, (the minimum to be of any use if you actually got to use them as above!) is around £60.00, for an offshore pack - 4 of each instead of 2 then look at around £120 upwards.

Decent liferaft would have them included as part of the survival kit... and sure it wouldn't cost that for a few days hire

PW

[boomerangben]

No problem with carrying flares on aircraft. SAR and North Sea helo pilots carry a day night flare in a pocket on their lifejackets. A flare (smoke by day, red light by night) improves your chance of being found many, many times. My opinion is that a survival suit is more use than a life raft. A liferaft is ideal, but what are the chances of a) getting it out of a sinking aircraft, b) once inflating it righting it, c) getting into one? And all this while you are in cold water that is sapping your strength. I admit a survival suit takes a little getting used, but I am convinced that wearing one will increase your chances of getting into a liferaft (as well as keeping the hypothermia off) and will also give you a fighting chance if your liferaft sinks with the plane.

I noticed old helicopter passenger survival suits we advertised for sale in Practical Boat Owner and/or Sailing Today magazines this month.

Enjoy your trip - The flying up here is fantastic.

[airborne_artist]

FWIW in the FAA we had to wear immersion (dry) suits when flying from/to/over sea if the sea temp was less than 14 Celsius and even then there had to be rescue a/c less than 30 mins away.

I'd say that the sea temp in the Western Isles would rarely exceed 14 Celsius, and certainly not before August.

Your best safety bets are in order (IMHO) altitude, good navigation, dry suit and lifejacket. I'd put a dinghy a very long way down the list. Even if you can't glide clear, altitude will give you enough time to send a Mayday with a good position report.

This could be a good £45 worth (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27415&item=7158021882&rd=1)

[boomerangben]

Beware of that one on ebay - it looks like it has built in buoyancy which is not good and that design of suit does not provide as good a neck seal as the more modern ones. Speak to Whirlybirds or Multifabs in Aberdeen, they might hire you one.

[Bluebeard777]

"Remember that the turnaround point depends on the wind and that minimum sink downwind may go considerably farther than best glide upwind."


This is a topic I have sometimes wondered about while looking down at the waves below! When roughly midway over the sea, engine goes silent, which coast do I turn to? Quick decision required. If there was no wind then the answer would be to head for the nearest coast. But there is always wind, so what I need is some simple rule of thumb to make a quick decision as to which way to turn.

It appears that the approx midpoint for gliding may be determined by dividing the crossing distance into two parts in the ratio (v + w) : (v - w), where v is the best glide airspeed and w is the wind speed component in the direction of travel.

So if I glide at 70, and there is wind of 25, I need to divide the crossing distance into two parts having the ratio 95:45. In this case I could glide twice as far downwind as upwind.

Maybe someone has a more definitive solution.

[Gugnunc]

Many thanks for the info.

I don't think I ever disputed that a liferaft was the ultimate on the wish list, but I do need to take weight and cost into consideration. I suppose if you carried everything for all eventualities you'd never get off the ground.

I'll look into the practicality of hiring or buying an immersion suit. I intend to do more island hopping (did the Orkneys last month and that was awesome) then a couple of immersion suits may be a good investment.

The club don't intend to buy a liferaft due to yearly maintenance costs, but they are going to buy some ELB/ELT's.

Perhaps a suit, ELB, handheld and (dare I say this) some flares may be a good compromise between saftey, cost and weight.

[IO540]

I don't think anybody will find a body in a drysuit bobbing up and down in the sea, unless they get lucky or unless the person has the EPIRB cord tied to their wrist, and the rest of the group has managed to hold onto him.

A raft has got to be the #1 thing to get. The Survival Products one from Harry M is about 8kg and is compact, much more so than the very heavy and bulky RFD one from Transair etc.

As regards which way to turn, I reckon that of all the over-water flights one might do, the % of the time that one spends in a position where making that decision the right way round would make a difference, is very short.

[MLS-12D]

Does anyone either carry flares while flying at the moment?I pretty much always carry a small set of flares when flying. Nothing fancy or expensive: just a pencil launcher and approx. 10 15mm flares, sealed in a small waterproof bottle. I fire one every holiday (yesterday evening, in fact: Victoria Day (http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/jfa-ha/victoria_e.cfm)), just to rotate stock and ensure that the flares still work. BTW, I also always carry a whistle, matches, a signal mirror, and a pocket knife.

The beauty of pencil launchers (http://www.truflare.com/image_high_res/model02Bkit.htm) is that they are very compact, lightweight, and inexpensive: so it is dead easy to always have a flare kit on your person. The downsides are that the 15mm flares are not powerful (allegedly 15,000 candlepower, but a very short burn time), nor easy to load. I would not consider them adequate for flying over water.

Does anyone know the legal/practical requiremnts of on-board pyrotechnics?To the best of my knowledge, there are no relevant legal restrictions, as flares are not generally considered to be weapons. Things could be otherwise in the UK, I suppose.

I've seen some reasonably priced Distress Flare packs for sale on some boating web sites.Many products are available. I have tried Orion (http://www.orionsignals.com/Marine/index.html) brand, with mixed results: they would not be my first choice. Pains Wessex (http://www.mcmurdo.co.uk/?Menu=17&Page=/Contents/ListProducts.asp&ID=1018) seems like a better bet.

If you do decide to include signal flares in your on-board equipment, do yourself a favour and get some proper training in their use. There are many unfortunate cases of people severely injuring themselves or inadvertantly starting fires through the incautious use of signalling pyrotechnics, and an emergency situation is no time to figure out 'how to do it'. Your local Coastguard station can probably provide you with, or refer you, to professional instruction in a controlled and safe environment.

P.S. You may be interested in this story (http://www.equipped.org/997ditch.htm).

[RatherBeFlying]

Mustang Survival (http://www.mustangsurvival.com/)

Very informative on the various types of immersion suits, but a little coy on price;) -- but I know what I'd want to be wearing flying to the Orkneys:ok:

[MLS-12D]

I used Mustang products fairly extensively during my naval service.

I can't say that they are 'the best': they were the only make that we were ever issued, and so I haven't tried any competitors. I can say that they are excellent quality.

[niknak]

Although its a realtively short stretch of water and quite busy with shipping, it's also subject to rapid changes in the direction of currents and wave conditions, as what has happened in the Atlantic the previous day, will happen there the next.

You're far better off with the best liferaft you can afford to rent, along with ELTs/ELBs - preferably water activated, and just in case it hasn't been mentioned, wear your lifejackets (uninflated) from take off to touch down.

This may all seem a bit extreme, but take it from someone who spent several years in the area, some of it assisting with SAR op
s looking for folk who didn't bother.

[LowNSlow]

After 30 minutes in British Northern coastal waters a lifejacket just allows the rescue team to find the body assuming there is an ELT attached. An immersion suit will keep you alive longer, a dinghy will probably keep you alive. Your call. As ever it's all a matter of weighing up risks and probablilities which can only be done by yourself within your own levels of perceived comfort levels.

As I recall from my North Sea offshore training:

No immersion suit and light clothing :
5 minutes - too numb to catch a rope
10 minutes - hypothermia setting in
30 minutes - dead

Wearing an immersion suit properly fitted so that NO water seeps in around the seals, with the gloves on, the hood pulled up and the lifejacket inflated you will last as long as you stay afloat. However, gettting that lot set up takes practice and obviously it's not as easy getting the zips done up, the gloves and hood on whilst trying to set up a ditching as it is when you practice in your living room.... A dinghy will offer similar levels of protection provided that you are sensibly dressed (not t-shirt and shorts).

There's a thread around here about a Lightning pilot who ejected over the Irish Sea in summertime. He had "plenty" of time, by the time he hit the water the SAR boys were airborne and they picked him up within 10 minutes of him being in the water. As he hadn't managed to get the neck seal of the suit on properly some water seeped in with the result that he was numb to the point of near unconciousness by the time the big yellow noisy bird found him.

British coastal waters are dangerous with low water temperatures, rapid currents and a shrinking SAR service. If the SAR boys and girls get to you within an hour you'll be lucky. Unfortunately without a good survival suit or preferably a dinghy you will also, probably, be dead.

Have a look here (http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/tourism/hypothermia.html)

[boomerangben]

Yes a liferaft is great, but how many times has a light aircraft ditched and a life raft has been successfully deployed? As soon as you come to rest on the water, the aircraft will start to sink, nose first. Your first reaction will be get out, not dig around in the back trying to release the properly secured liferaft. Afterall if it is not well secured, it will probably kill you when you hit the water.

If you have a proper survival (NOT immersion suit which is different and not for use in aircraft) with a proper neckseal (not the ones that zip up the front to the neck) you will survive an extended period in the water. You will also have a much better chance of getting into a liferaft if you are lucky enough to have got it out before the aircraft sinks.

I know how hard it is to see a body in the water and this is why flares are so important. If you manage to get a good mayday out with a reasonably accurate position, you will have a helicopter on scene within an hour. A flare will mean that the helo will arrive on scene and find you very quickly. Without the flare you will probably be found, but the search might take some time. A hand held day/night flare (which is about the same size as the tube in a loo roll) has smoke one end and light the other would be best.

ELBs are also good, but remember that it might be 90 mins before a position fix reaches ARCC Kinloss (Mayday therefore very important). Homing to an ELB still requires the mark one eyeball to see the casualty but the ELB makes the search area much much smaller. A flare when the helo arrives on scene will mean that you will be picked up without having to spend time searching.

Gugnunc,

Check you PMs.

What is you intended route?

[effortless]

I remember carrying dye when on a jolly as a kid. Do we still have this?

[LowNSlow]

Sorry peeps, mixing up my immersion and survival suits there. I was referring to survival suits as worn by the North Sea crews when flying offshore.

Regarding liferafts, wouldn't it be better to have it on the passenger seat / passenger's lap when you actually ditch? I'm referring to the 8kg one mentioned earlier.

[DubTrub]

I carry two types of distress flare: The pencil type referred to earlier and an orange smoke.

The pencil flares are for inshore ditchings, and should be released in pairs...one to attract the attention of anyone on the coast ("I say, Mr Cholmondley-Warner, what was that?"); the second shows them where you are ("Just a fellow out for a dip, Mr Fortesque-Smythe")

The Orange smoke is for when (if) the lifeboat/helicopter appears near the scene...gives location, wind speed and direction.

Not had to try it in anger yet, fortunately.

[englishal]

I wouldn't buy a second hand immersion suit, instead I bought a brand new Typhoon Alpha breathable dry suit, which is essentially the same thing, but only costs £200....Anyone who's ever been on the HUET course knows how much the seals on second hand ones leak.....

Ideally I'b be in a liferaft, in an immersion suit, with lifejacket, with an EPIRB and flares.

Second to that, I'd rather be in an immersion suit, with life jacket with EPIRB in hand and flares.

Failing that, Immersion suit, life jacket, EPIRB.

Of course in a "proper" survival suit, you could last hours in very cold water, I'm sure there are more than a couple of Norweigan boys who've floated around Fjords in winter for several days with no ill effects. Trouble is you would probably not get out of the aircraft in one.

[MLS-12D]

For what it may be worth, Peter Garrison (columnist for Flying magazine) has a section on survival gear - especially life rafts - in his 1981 book, Long-Distance Flying. He sums up as follows:

It is all really too fanciful. You carry certain basic pieces of survival equipment because it seems foolhardy to go over water with no protection at all. But it is impossible to protect yourself against every remote eventuality. The majority of airplanes that ditch in the ocean disappear with their pilots; the few pilots that are saved are those that ditch alongside ships, or in otherwise impeccable conditions. What is more to the point is that ditchings are very rare.... In the final analysis, when you make an ocean crossing you are risking your life; you must simply face that fact. The risk is small; whether survival equipment of exotic types would make it any smaller is impossible to say.

...

In thinking about survival, I always come back to the idea that there are some people who are simply not going to want to fly across the ocean, and there are others who will. Those who don't want to will not be persuaded by the presence of a life raft, no matter how well equipped; and those who do will not be deterred by the absence of one. For me, it was sufficient reassurance that many people had done it, and few had come to grief. In restrospect, the satisfactions and pleasures of my ocean flights have certainly warranted the risks, whatever they may have been.See further his 2001 article "Why People Don't Fly" (http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=11).

[IO540]

boomerangben

It may be 90 mins before Kinloss get the sat fix (is this current information for 406MHz?) but an EPIRB also has a 121.50 emission which the SAR heli will home in on.

I used to carry flares when windsurfing (having been told to on the RYA course, as if this was on a 90ft yacht...) and I don't think one has much of a chance of firing one in any sort of heavy seas, before the thing fills up with water.

The 121.50 emission from an EPIRB/ELT should be better for DF than a flare - and it lasts many hours.

[boomerangben]

Hi IO540,

The major benefits of 406MHz is the fact that it is a dedicated frequency and has sufficient band width to contain position information. With the position information (that requires a built in GPS or GPS interface) a 406 alert will take less than 30 mins to scramble a helo. Without it, it will take upto 90 mins. Obviously a good mayday message will get SAR operations going sooner. It is important to remember that a homer is merely a sensitive NDB receiver and has the same limitations as those beloved nav aids. There is no range information other than the increasing sensitivity of the needle. So an aircraft will only know it has arrived once it has gone through the cone of confusion and overshot. A well timed flare will increase the chance of being found on the first pass and save a more time consuming search. I am not trying to suggest a flare is better than a beacon but 30 pounds spent on flares is good value to compliment an EPIRB.

I cannot understand this fascination for liferafts. A liferaft only works if all of the following events are survived:
The impact,
the escape,
the cold shock and incapacitation
the removal of liferaft from partially sunk/rapidly sinking aircraft,
being able to inflate, right it from a capsize (if its not your day, it will inflate upside down), hang onto it and actually get into it.

Would a helmet be a better initial investment?

[pilotwolf]

IO540 I used to carry flares when windsurfing (having been told to on the RYA course, as if this was on a 90ft yacht...) and I don't think one has much of a chance of firing one in any sort of heavy seas, before the thing fills up with water.
..before what fills up? The aircraft, the liferaft or the flare? Agree if it the a/c but a liferaft should still float full of water and the flare should operate even if it's been submerged and they shouldn't go out if they get wet either.

Also it's worth pointing out that unless you ve fired a flare you WILL get a shock! The handheld ones drop burning dross and they get rather warm - need to be used at arms length! As for trying to fire a rocket whilst floating - well I wouldn't like to try it as they give a nice kick and again you want to be holding it at arms length when it goes off. It's fun when stood on the deck of a stable vessel - really wouldn't want to try it floating around in the water but having said that... the RNLI use a day/night flare attached tot he lifejacket harness which is both a red flare and orange smoke combined for use if you re unfortunate enough to go overboard. Similar to this (http://http://www.piplers.co.uk/product_details.asp?intID=2553&strCAT=Chandlery%20and%20Safety)

PW

[GeneralMelchet]

Why not try a divers drysuit ( just dont get any valves fitted). The membrane ones are quite cheap and you can get front zips to make them easier to get into. They can be fully customised with different pockets etc.

I have a Polar Bears one which has dry gloves too - only my head gets wet. I also carry a inflatable 6' marker bouy ( OK this is for diving but it is quite small and light when packed) along with a strobe on my bouyancy jacket.


I had a pack of pencil flares many years ago but haven't seen them to buy lately. They were in a coke can sized waterproof container


Assuming you survive a ditching - getting out of the aircraft with anything other than what you are wearing will be a challenge to say the least.

DIsclamer: I use this gear for diving - have never worn it in an aircraft.

I have a question for the guys who have done the North Sea offshore survival course. Do you expel all the air from the suit before entering the helicopter? And do you keep the suit zipped up for the whole journey

Found these after a quick search.
miniflares (http://www.sailgb.com/p/pains_wessex_miniflare_3/)

[LowNSlow]

General Melchet yes and yes. Not the most comfortable way to travel but, given the number of choppers that have gone into the oggin, it is reassuring.

[GeneralMelchet]

LowNSlow,

Thanks, a number of people had mentioned leaving their suits unzipped until the worst happens ( for comfort reasons) . This gives you the problem of having to zip up in a hurry when you should be flying the plane and having a suit full of air which may stop you exiting a submerged aircraft.

From diving experience I can tell you that getting into a boat or liferaft unaided is no easy task - it gets harder if you are cold. If I was flying overwater trips I would wear a survival suit (2nd hand drysuit would do)and lifevest with all my gear attached (flares,strobe and EPRIB). This would be based on at least being able to get off some sort of mayday call and being able to survive in the water until rescue arrives. In my opinion (and I stress this is only my opinion) if you go into the water without a suit on you will severely reduce your chances of survival, even if you do have a liferaft.

[mad_jock]

Where are you leaving from?

http://www.splashsports.co.uk/frameset.htm

You can rent a membrane suit from splash sports for 20 quid a day. I wouldn't worry about being diver qualified. If you tell Rickie (glasgow) what you want it for I am sure he will liberate cash off you for something suitable. He may also have an ELT available and a mini flare pack.



MJ

[boomerangben]

Are modern diving suits breathable? The ones we use are made of Goretex and are relatively comfortable, even for prolonged periods. You do need to make sure that the neck and wrist seals are properly trimmed to stop your extremities going blue!!

[mad_jock]

I would think all the gas would piss out the gortex holes under pressure. Not a great fan of membrane suits for diving so i am not up on the current technology.

The rental suits are all quite slack on the seals and i think most are neoprene. which are not as comfy but are alot less likely to rip.

I agree the made for the job ones would proberly be best but. Its the cost v comfy, something usable for a 1 off weekend flight will cost 40 quid for the weekend. I have worn my Otter compressed for a 1.5 hour flight and apart from being a bit sweaty no problems. My record in the suit was 10 hours driving a rib in the sound of Mull only problem was the emergency 20 quid note for beer supplys was a bit moist in the Loch Aline social club.

And if any one is up in the area the Bambi Burgers from the van next to the ferry slip are well worth a visit.

MJ

[topcat450]

The RAF/Army chaps have seemingly very practical integrated life jackets & survival vests - With lots of pockets and pouches for all your goodies. They look reasonably hard wearing too.

They seem like a good idea in that if properly kitted up (with your handheld radio..gps and other bits) all you'd need to do is clamber out and you'd not have to worry about grabbing bags etc from the seats behind.

I wouldn't know where to source them from though.