Gugnunc

I'm about to do a VFR tour of the Western Isles (flight plan, Island hugging etc), and I'm getting together a few survival kit items. I can source life jackets, and I'm trying to get a handheld transceiver.

The cost of a full life raft or ELT seems a bit prohibitive for what is just a weekend trip, but I've seen some reasonably priced Distress Flare packs for sale on some boating web sites.

Does anyone either carry flares while flying at the moment - or know the legal/practical requiremnts of on-board pyrotechnics?

All I can find in the books is a requirement to carry parachute flares if flying a helicopter at night!

Thanks

2Donkeys

At least the flares should mark where the bodies are to be found.

2D

A survival suit and/or dinghy would be much higher up the list than flares IMHO.

Gugnunc

Ah yes, but if you are going to play the money no object game then a turboprop twin and an IR trumps the survival suit and the dinghy.

I'm looking for some cost effective (and for that matter, lightweight) additions to a good weather emergency kit where the maximum water crossing is 10nm.

Aw shucks. Make that a 4 engined turboprop with a Sea King in attendance.

2Donkeys

Unless you seriously intend to bob up and down in the water clutching your flares, I would still say that they are a total waste of your time and money.

Consider renting a dinghy.

2D

effortless

Flares are so sixties.

dublinpilot

The problem I'd see, is actually exiting the aircraft, and managing to bring the flares with you.

Then when you get into the water, you will quickly loose your body head, and start to shiver uncontrollably. By the time the rescue services arrive, and you want to use the flares, you'll probably have already dropped them, as you hands will no longer function properly, and if you haven't dropped them, you are almost guaranteed not to be able to use them. The cold will take away the function of your hands very quickly.

2d's is on the right track. Rent life raft. It will probably not cost much more to rent, than a couple of flares will cost to buy, and significantly improve your survival chances.

I'm sure someone else will be able to point you in the right direction if you decide to rent a life raft instead. Perhaps a local school or club would rent you theirs?

dp

2Donkeys

Rent one from SEMS Aerosafe in Basildon.

They do a good deal and can also supply all manner of other survival gear, including flares if you insist.

They looked after me very well for my Transatlantic trip.

2D

RatherBeFlying

If I'm going into the drink in anything cooler than the bathtub, a survival suit is the first item as it will enable me to deploy and get into the dinghy.

A survival suit gives you a decent chance in case the dinghy does not work out, as does happen from time to time.

A portable waterproof EPIRB in the survival suit is the number two item.

Put on survival suit before boarding a/c -- leave unzipped as much as possible until engine croaks.

Give a thought to sea conditions if ditching is a possibility; there is a big difference in survival probabilities in a calm swell and whitecaps

Spend some time with the maps. If the crossing is shorter than twice your glide at altitude and the terrain is suitable, you can plan it so that you will not get wet if the engine fails.

Remember that the turnaround point depends on the wind and that minimum sink downwind may go considerably farther than best glide upwind.

2Donkeys

I know what you mean, but a note of caution is worthwhile here.

If you are a lithe fit young thing, you may well be able to haul yourself into a Dinghy when dressed in a wringing wet set of everyday clothes. If you can achieve this feat, you may even be able to manage the same trick when dressed in a heavy and cumbersome Survival suit.

Unfortunately, if you are a bit of a porker, or a bit past your prime, a Blobby suit may well put a stop to any chance you have of getting into your dinghy.

There are techniques (apart from dieting) that can help. Practice is vital.

2D

Gertrude the Wombat

OK, so a 10nm crossing means you're never further than 5nm from land. A distance which you can glide from a plausible height for a light aircraft. So just do your sums before you set out and make sure you're always flying high enough when over the water

[FTAOD: this was not meant to be serious advice.]

RatherBeFlying

A decent boarding ladder makes a big difference: Winslow Liferafts

Sunfish

Bugger! Gertrude beat me to it! Best safety item is 5000 feet of Altitude then you should be able to glide what? 10 Miles? I think you can get this in a small aluminium can from Sporty's

pilotwolf

I don't know the cost of hiring a raft for the weekend but having just 're-flared' the boat I know that for a costal pack of flares, ie 2 rockets/2 handheld/2 smoke, (the minimum to be of any use if you actually got to use them as above!) is around £60.00, for an offshore pack - 4 of each instead of 2 then look at around £120 upwards.

Decent liferaft would have them included as part of the survival kit... and sure it wouldn't cost that for a few days hire

PW

boomerangben

No problem with carrying flares on aircraft. SAR and North Sea helo pilots carry a day night flare in a pocket on their lifejackets. A flare (smoke by day, red light by night) improves your chance of being found many, many times. My opinion is that a survival suit is more use than a life raft. A liferaft is ideal, but what are the chances of a) getting it out of a sinking aircraft, b) once inflating it righting it, c) getting into one? And all this while you are in cold water that is sapping your strength. I admit a survival suit takes a little getting used, but I am convinced that wearing one will increase your chances of getting into a liferaft (as well as keeping the hypothermia off) and will also give you a fighting chance if your liferaft sinks with the plane.

I noticed old helicopter passenger survival suits we advertised for sale in Practical Boat Owner and/or Sailing Today magazines this month.

Enjoy your trip - The flying up here is fantastic.

airborne_artist

FWIW in the FAA we had to wear immersion (dry) suits when flying from/to/over sea if the sea temp was less than 14 Celsius and even then there had to be rescue a/c less than 30 mins away.

I'd say that the sea temp in the Western Isles would rarely exceed 14 Celsius, and certainly not before August.

Your best safety bets are in order (IMHO) altitude, good navigation, dry suit and lifejacket. I'd put a dinghy a very long way down the list. Even if you can't glide clear, altitude will give you enough time to send a Mayday with a good position report.

This could be a good £45 worth

boomerangben

Beware of that one on ebay - it looks like it has built in buoyancy which is not good and that design of suit does not provide as good a neck seal as the more modern ones. Speak to Whirlybirds or Multifabs in Aberdeen, they might hire you one.

Bluebeard777

"Remember that the turnaround point depends on the wind and that minimum sink downwind may go considerably farther than best glide upwind."


This is a topic I have sometimes wondered about while looking down at the waves below! When roughly midway over the sea, engine goes silent, which coast do I turn to? Quick decision required. If there was no wind then the answer would be to head for the nearest coast. But there is always wind, so what I need is some simple rule of thumb to make a quick decision as to which way to turn.

It appears that the approx midpoint for gliding may be determined by dividing the crossing distance into two parts in the ratio (v + w) : (v - w), where v is the best glide airspeed and w is the wind speed component in the direction of travel.

So if I glide at 70, and there is wind of 25, I need to divide the crossing distance into two parts having the ratio 95:45. In this case I could glide twice as far downwind as upwind.

Maybe someone has a more definitive solution.

Gugnunc

Many thanks for the info.

I don't think I ever disputed that a liferaft was the ultimate on the wish list, but I do need to take weight and cost into consideration. I suppose if you carried everything for all eventualities you'd never get off the ground.

I'll look into the practicality of hiring or buying an immersion suit. I intend to do more island hopping (did the Orkneys last month and that was awesome) then a couple of immersion suits may be a good investment.

The club don't intend to buy a liferaft due to yearly maintenance costs, but they are going to buy some ELB/ELT's.

Perhaps a suit, ELB, handheld and (dare I say this) some flares may be a good compromise between saftey, cost and weight.

IO540

I don't think anybody will find a body in a drysuit bobbing up and down in the sea, unless they get lucky or unless the person has the EPIRB cord tied to their wrist, and the rest of the group has managed to hold onto him.

A raft has got to be the #1 thing to get. The Survival Products one from Harry M is about 8kg and is compact, much more so than the very heavy and bulky RFD one from Transair etc.

As regards which way to turn, I reckon that of all the over-water flights one might do, the % of the time that one spends in a position where making that decision the right way round would make a difference, is very short.

MLS-12D

I pretty much always carry a small set of flares when flying. Nothing fancy or expensive: just a pencil launcher and approx. 10 15mm flares, sealed in a small waterproof bottle. I fire one every holiday (yesterday evening, in fact: Victoria Day), just to rotate stock and ensure that the flares still work. BTW, I also always carry a whistle, matches, a signal mirror, and a pocket knife.

The beauty of pencil launchers is that they are very compact, lightweight, and inexpensive: so it is dead easy to always have a flare kit on your person. The downsides are that the 15mm flares are not powerful (allegedly 15,000 candlepower, but a very short burn time), nor easy to load. I would not consider them adequate for flying over water.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no relevant legal restrictions, as flares are not generally considered to be weapons. Things could be otherwise in the UK, I suppose.

Many products are available. I have tried Orion brand, with mixed results: they would not be my first choice. Pains Wessex seems like a better bet.

If you do decide to include signal flares in your on-board equipment, do yourself a favour and get some proper training in their use. There are many unfortunate cases of people severely injuring themselves or inadvertantly starting fires through the incautious use of signalling pyrotechnics, and an emergency situation is no time to figure out 'how to do it'. Your local Coastguard station can probably provide you with, or refer you, to professional instruction in a controlled and safe environment.

P.S. You may be interested in this story.