Cpl Or Ppl Holder Pic??? [Archive]

FlyingForFun

12th May 2005, 15:36

No, it is just whoever decides to be captain for the flight. For example, if the PPL owns his own aircraft, and carries the CPL (a friend of his) as a pasenger on a private flight, the PPL will log the time as P1, and the CPL will not be entitled to log it at all.

Indeed, you might find that if the CPL were to log the flight as P1 (and therefore the PPL not log it at all), the insurance would be invalid since the CPL would not be named on the insurance.

It's also not necessarilly valid to assume that the CPL is even more experienced than the PPL. It is possible to get a CPL with around 200 hours total time. Many PPLs have far, far more experience than this. Even a CPL or ATPL with many thousand hours may not be as experienced on light aircraft, or on the specific type of aircraft, as the PPL.

FFF
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aaron5150

12th May 2005, 15:45

ok thanks for your help!
I think in the future we will do one flight his and one flight mine. I was also wondering, what if we both put P.1? I know we cant both be the commander but who would know?

AerBabe

12th May 2005, 15:51

Anyone who compared your log books would know. And so would you. Really, what's the point? Is your CPL-holder friend that desperate for hours? Personally, my log book is something I'm proud of; I've worked for every hour in it.

aaron5150

12th May 2005, 15:59

No he is not, I was just wondering thats all. As for someone comparing our log books, I have no idea why they would but thats a different issue all together.

Thanks for the help!

HAPPY FLYING!

MLS-12D

12th May 2005, 16:46

what if we both put P.1? I know we cant both be the commander but who would know?Why stop there? Why don't you both log ten hours for every hour actually flown? And why not record the time as being flown in a Learjet, at night, in IMC? Who would know? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Frankly, it is rather disgraceful that someone would ask such a question. "I was just wondering that's all" indeed! :ugh:

Personally, my log book is something I'm proud of; I've worked for every hour in it.Amen. :ok:

S-Works

12th May 2005, 17:41

what a bizzare question! Does this stem from your CPL friend to assure you that as he is a CPL he must always be P1 cos a CPL makes him more important than "mere" PPL's?

Agree with the other comments on here, badges do not make for experiance. Flying the hours and the types make for experiance.

I also agree with aerbabe, I have worked for every minute of my flight time and would feel like I had cheated if I logged time that was not mine. A bit like knocking points of your golf score, you only cheat yourself!

aaron5150

12th May 2005, 18:38

yes i agree with you lot, however i was more looking for an answer to the question about why would the caa compare both log books?
Also when we fly its the both of us that do the flying, not just the one. Take it in turns if you get me, this is where my confusion comes in as i dont beleive you can change from passenger to P.1 in flight.

AerBabe

12th May 2005, 19:03

You both fly at the same time? What happens if the fan stops? Do you flip a coin?

So many questions!

MLS-12D

12th May 2005, 19:09

i was more looking for an answer to the question about why would the caa compare both log books?No. That was not your question; and that issue did not even arise until subsequently mentioned by AerBabe. :suspect:

I don't know if you are consciously or subconsciously inventing ex post facto justifications for your posts, but it is only making things worse.

Your question contemplated what can only be defined as deliberate fraud, and that it why it upset people. Aviation is heavily regulated, but (by and large) the authorities allow pilots considerable latitude, on the assumption that they are honourable and trustworthy people. Usually, that assumption is fully justified.

I sincerely hope that you have learned a valuable lesson and will decide not to pursue a "who would know?" attitude in your flying career.

Confabulous

12th May 2005, 19:14

Well said MLS! :cool:

S-Works

12th May 2005, 19:23

There is nothing wrong with both pilots flying in turn. I often share a long leg in the twin with my flying partner. We agree the specific time that the P1 changes and then log ONLY the time that we were P1. On a short leg we dont bother as it becomes a pain to track.

As MLS12D states this is a question of honour not a question of whether the CAA would actually compare the 2 log books.

If either are really that desperate for hours then do more flying!

Justiciar

12th May 2005, 19:31

Its also an offence under the ANO to make a false entry in your log book:yuk:
Time has to be logged in accordance with JAA FCL_1

AerBabe

12th May 2005, 19:35

You both fly at the same time? What happens if the fan stops? Do you flip a coin?

So many questions!

S-Works

12th May 2005, 19:45

Are we getting deja vu here aerbabe?

AerBabe

12th May 2005, 20:18

Interesting ... dunno how that happened!

boomerangben

12th May 2005, 20:18

Who signed the tech log for the flight? That will define who was P1. Or at least will give the CAA something to cross reference with a log book. Sounds to me as if you need to do some CRM so that if something does go wrong, you each know who is going to do what. And before you ask about logging P2 time, P2 time can only be logged on notified multi crew aircraft.

aaron5150

12th May 2005, 20:46

ok lesson learnt guys/girls.... Just a question to something BOSE-X wrote; i still dont know the answer to my questions, are you allowed to say i am doing the first hour or two and you are doing the other hour etc, then log it like that?
If so, how do you log the destination when your part of the flying ends? This is where i get confused?!?!

I mean if you are on an obvious longer than 2 hour flight and only log 1.5 hours but still write the same airports in, wont they think its the pilots or something for not logging the flight correctly if the log book happens to be checked?

Also just to clarify, is there NO reason why a CPL holder should be captain over a PPL holder? The way it sounded to by him was as if they automatically captain because they hold a 'better' licence. You know just like you can have a SGT in the army who been there for 20 years but an officer who just passed out of sandhust is automatically in charge.

Say again s l o w l y

12th May 2005, 21:01

Then comes the argument about who takes responsibility in the event of an accident. If you have one pilot who is more experienced than the other, but is not down as PIC, should they take control in the event of a problem?

I believe there has been a case where an FI was sitting in the back of an a/c which crashed and he was prosecuted for NOT having taken over from the less experienced PPL who was flying. A great situation to be in!!

aaron5150

12th May 2005, 21:08

Yes but as stated earlier just because they are a cpl holder, it does not mean they are more experienced, espically when it comes to light aircraft flying. I get the opinion many cpl holders often think they are better than ppl holders, but i think this is plain wrong.
As said before, a new cpl holder is no way as experienced as someone who has been flying for 30 years but still only holds a ppl. I dont think the attitude of a lot of cpl holders thinking they automatically become captain just because their licence is 'better' than a ppl holder.

dublinpilot

12th May 2005, 21:21

Look, the simple answer is that the pilot in command is just that- the pilot in command. Not the pilot in the left hand seat, not the pilot with the most privileges, and not the pilot with the most experience. Simply the pilot who both of you have agreed in advance, is in command of the flight, and responsible for it's safe conduct.

You must agree before you go flying, who is going to be in command at what times. That way if you have a disagreement over something, you've already agreed who's in charge. That way something doesn't get over looked, because you thought the other person was in charge of that. And that way, third parties know who to go after if something goes wrong.

Who ever you agree before the flight is going to be pilot in command, logs it as pilot in command, and the other person logs nothing.

If you fly a 1 & 1/2 hour flight from Dublin, to Kerry, and agree that one of you is in command for the first 45 minutes, and the other is in command for the second 45 minutes, then I'd log it as departing Dublin at the take off time, and Landing in Kerry at the landing time, and 45 minutes under "Single Engine In Command" section. The fast that it took 90 minutes is irrelevant, if you were only in command for 45 minutes.

Hope that helps.

aaron5150

12th May 2005, 21:24

yes thanks dublinpilot... it's is clear now. I'm going to go and bust his bubble now about his licence!

Thanks you lot!

S-Works

12th May 2005, 21:28

ah the arrogance of the newly minted CPL/Frozen ATPL.......:D

GIve me a high hours PPL over any fancy "badge holder"..

MLS-12D

12th May 2005, 21:54

is there NO reason why a CPL holder should be captain over a PPL holder? The way it sounded to by him was as if they automatically captain because they hold a 'better' licence. You know just like you can have a SGT in the army who been there for 20 years but an officer who just passed out of sandhust is automatically in charge.Ah, but recreational flying is not like being in the army, or an airline.

Whenever two pilots fly a non-revenue flight in a dual-control but single-pilot aircraft, who is in charge is a matter subject to (advance) mutual agreement. If you and your friend can't come to a mutually acceptable solution, just don't fly together.

Alternatively, if he is so impressed by his 'better' license, let him serve as P1 and log all the time, but only on the condition that he pays all of the cost of renting the airplane. That's fair.

P.S. In any case, things in the army don't actually operate precisely in the manner described: any newly-minted subaltern who doesn't privately defer to a senior NCO on most matters is making life difficult for himself, in more ways than one.

aaron5150

12th May 2005, 22:50

:ok: nice one! Yea that money point is a good one!

It was simply something i thought was true since he came out with it, i just thought it might make sense, however it is clear powered flying is like gliding which i do more often as it does not depend on the class of the pilot, we just decide on the ground who is in charge and who deals with any emergencies etc that may arise.

But that money point is a good one which I will keep in mind for the future, 'u want the hour... u pay!' :E

shortstripper

13th May 2005, 05:03

I believe there has been a case where an FI was sitting in the back of an a/c which crashed and he was prosecuted for NOT having taken over from the less experienced PPL who was flying. A great situation to be in!!

Can that really be true SAS? Seems totally bizarre to prosecute on the grounds that he/she didn't "take over" when they most obviously could not? Were there mitigating circumstances? Like perhaps a non-current PPL that the instructor allowed to fly P1 whilst he/she sat in the back ... I could understand that :suspect:

I do remember a case of a glider CFI losing his CFI status for being in a fatal motor glider accident. I could never understand that either, the PPL who sadly died was ASAIR current and P1. The CFI wasn't prosecuted, but the BGA removed his rating as they felt that due to the circumstances of the accident that he should have taken over :ugh:

I can see how an instructor may feel under pressure to take over when cases like this occur, but I feel it sets a dangerous precedent. As previously stated, the fact someone has a CPL or is an instructor does not mean they are in any way "better" able to cope with any given situation. They may be ... but certainly not by virtue of licence! I regularly fly with a CPL/instructor friend of mine. If it's in his aeroplane and I'm flying P1.... I'm P1! That said, If the engine stopped, I would by virtue of his experience "on type" hand over control (as we would have agreed beforehand). If he were flying with me in my aeroplane, there is no way he would ever presume to take over control by virtue of his superior licence.... he is far too proffessional for that! He, like any sensible PILOT knows that they cannot always be the one best suited to fly the aeroplane. The time to decide who is P1, how emergencies would be dealt with (and by whom) is on the ground, not under pressure in the air. Any court who decides differently is Mickey Mouse!!!
:uhoh:

SS

Say again s l o w l y

13th May 2005, 07:45

It sounds nuts doesn't it! The problem seems to arise when a more experienced pilot allows the lesss experienced operating pilot get into a situation, the thinking being that it is your duty to step in. (note I'm not talking about who has what licence here, that is an irrelevance as has been mentioned by others before.)

I'm going to check up on this one myself, since I've really only heard it through hearsay, but in a small way it makes sense even if it is unsavoury.

AerBabe

13th May 2005, 08:05

Just another small point ... if you are both logging time on the aircraft, you should both be insured on it!

S-Works

13th May 2005, 10:30

I would like to actually SEE proof of this case where the Instructor was prosecuted in writing. I think it is another aviation myth well propogated bu unfounded. How can a passenger be responsible for the actions of the pilot.

Next thing we will have a driving instructor in the back of a car that crashes being prosecuted because he was in the back and "should" have done something by virtue of being an instructor.

Load of tosh if you ask me!

If flying Lawyer is about I would like to hear is view on culpability of a passenger?

2Donkeys

13th May 2005, 10:42

I don't believe that any regulator has ever taken action against a qualified airman acting as a passenger and sitting in a passenger seat, for failing to act to counter a bad move by the lawful commander of the flight.

Where the airman-passenger happens to be sitting in a crew seat, I would expect the limit of his responsibility to be:

a) To pass advice as might be appropriate where a serious situation seems likely to develop; and

b) To act if, in extremis, the aircraft, its occupants or people on the ground, are placed in immediate danger as a result of actions or inactions of the commander.

2D

englishal

13th May 2005, 12:55

I use the rule that if two pilots are flying together , then he who sits in the left seat does any emergency landing, and the other helps. If I'm flying with a CFI under instruction he/she'd take over UNLESS they didn't want to (example of this is when on a CPL on his CPL test experienced a gear failure. The examiner "talked him down" to a successful crash landing.....and he passed the skills test).

Thats all that needs to be agreed beforehand, if you want to swap flying en-route, fine, we often do it.

MLS-12D

13th May 2005, 16:04

I would like to actually SEE proof of this case where the Instructor was prosecuted in writing. I think it is another aviation myth well propogated but unfounded. How can a passenger be responsible for the actions of the pilot.I am unaware of any such case. That doesn't mean that it does not exist (anything is possible, especially in the USA); but I think it very unlikely, at least in the absence of unique circumstances.

bookworm

13th May 2005, 17:47

There was a case a few years ago of a PPL and FAA CPL flying together in the left and right seats respectively. After an accident (fuel exhaustion, I think), both denied being commander. Action was taken against the CPL. (Might have been an ATP and/or CFI, I forget)

It was discussed at length on PPrune but I can't find it in currently available posts.

WestWind1950

13th May 2005, 18:12

In our single engine aircraft, private flying, there is only ONE PIC, normally the one in the seat in which the aircraft is flown solo. That would mean for the standard plane the left seat. It doesn't matter what licence the other person has, unless it's an instruction flight with an instructor. And that's the way the insurance companies will normally handle it I'm sure.

I was once married to an ATPL'er, but when we flew together and I was in the left seat, then I was PIC, not him! No questions asked!
And I think sharing hours without a landing silly.... if I fly with buddies, then each flies a complete leg... that way there is no question as to who is PIC!

@aaron5150
I think the guy is just trying to collect hours at your cost!

Westy

MLS-12D

13th May 2005, 18:46

Definitely there are cases such as the one bookworm describes. Where both pilots survive the crash, who was in command will essentially be a matter of credibility, unless pre-flight documentation (e.g., an aircraft sign-out sheet) is available to show who was PIC.

Sky Wave

13th May 2005, 23:12

This is mad.

The person that signs the tech log is the commander, and is the person responsible should anything go wrong and the person that books the time, end of story. Even if the commander elects to allow a more experienced person in the right hand seat to carry out an emergency procedure surely the commander is still the commander.

It also seems strange to me that people are talking about sharing flight time on a single flight. I often fly with friends who are pilots. When I'm in their aircraft it wouldn't even cross my mind to book the time even if I ended up flying the whole of the cruise, likewise they wouldn't book any time when with me. If it's a shared aircraft one pilot flies one leg and the other pilot does the next leg. If you allow someone else to take the controls in flight that does not diminish your responsibility as commander. You are still responsible if they wander into controlled airspace even if they have twice the experience that you do.

If the worse thing happens and the fan stops spinning the best thing the other pilot can do is monitor the P1, make sure they are achieving best glide, look for a good landing site, check the PF has done the emergency drills and make the mayday call.

Just my 2 cents worth.

SW

bookworm

13th May 2005, 23:39

The person that signs the tech log is the commander

There is no Tech Log for a private category aircraft, and even where a Tech Log is required, the obligations concern only record of times and defects after the flight.

Keygrip

14th May 2005, 02:33

One Aerbabe is scary enough - but TWO of 'em.....the thought makes me shudder.

Sky Wave

14th May 2005, 07:40

There is no Tech Log for a private category aircraft, and even where a Tech Log is required, the obligations concern only record of times and defects after the flight.

Sorry

I've always flown club aircraft, and the captains name is always stated on the tech log.

SW

AerBabe

14th May 2005, 08:51

Thanks Keygrip, love you too. :rolleyes: I--I

BTW, you owe me some SC. ;)

dublinpilot

14th May 2005, 08:52

I think bookworms point is that there is no legal requirement for the captains name to be stated in the tech log. Hence stating it, is not conclusive, and only an indication.

In any case, it makes little or no difference. Plans change and circumstances change.

Lets take a simple situation where two pilots go flying together. One if day VFR rated only, and the other if instrument rated.

They agree that this leg is going to be the VFR guys leg, and he records this in the tech log. Half way through the flight, the conditions start to deteriorate, and the VFR pilot, being the safe and conscientious pilot he is, decides to divert to an airfield en route rather than continue to their actual destination.

The IR pilot offers to take over as P1, and continue the flight under instrument rules, so as to save them having to divert, and so that they can make their final destination. This is agreed.

Are you seriously suggesting that because the VFR pilots name was entered in the tech log at the start of the flight, that he remains P1 even though the flight is now being conducted under IFR, in IMC, and even though both pilots have agreed the change in commander?

bookworm

14th May 2005, 09:32

I think bookworms point is that there is no legal requirement for the captains name to be stated in the tech log. Hence stating it, is not conclusive, and only an indication.

There's no requirement for a pre-flight signature. I think that if there is as signature as commander, it would be difficult to argue to the contrary after the event.

That said, the ANO seems to quite explicitly allow for switches of commander.

‘Commander’ in relation to an aircraft means the member of the flight crew designated as commander of that aircraft by the operator thereof, or, failing such a person, the person who is for the time being the pilot in command of the aircraft;

‘Pilot in command’ in relation to an aircraft means a person who for the time being is in charge of the piloting of the aircraft without being under the direction of any other pilot in the aircraft;

drauk

14th May 2005, 10:12

Of course you can switch commander half way through a leg or indeed back and forth every thirty seconds if that is the wish of the two of you. The only thing that matters is agreement between the two of you - it doesn't have to be in advance, other then momentarily.

When I was doing my IR training in the US we would sometimes do an 'air-switch', which involved the pilot in the left hand seat climbing in to the back and the pilot in the back climbing forward in to the left seat. This was done typically after a missed approach at one airport in the middle of a long leg en-route to another one. It was a bit of a palaver what with headsets, hoods, oxygen and all, but it worked and the instructor actually got to touch the controls for a few minutes.

englishal

14th May 2005, 10:21

Of course you can......and no signatures are required.

I've flown many times with un IR'd pilots, and when entering IMC and becoming IFR, I magically put on the PIC hat. Of course judging by some of the reasoning on here, we'd have had to make an emergency landing, phone the CAA, sign form AXTDYGDY123 in triplicate, fax it off to the CAA, get a response, fax the insurance company, swap seats, sign the tech log, then notify Brussels 24 hours in advance of the PIC swap....blah blah....;) (am I getting carried away? :D)

Maybe "Common sense" should be included in the PPL written exams?

bookworm

14th May 2005, 10:49

When I was doing my IR training in the US we would sometimes do an 'air-switch'

But that didn't actually involve a change of commander, did it? The instructor was presumably commander throughout.

I have to say that although I can't see any legal reason why you cannot change commander during flight, I think it could lead to some difficult CRM. I'd much prefer to see a commander designated pre-flight to avoid any issues over how, exactly, the job is transferred at a potentially difficult time.

S-Works

14th May 2005, 15:20

There is no problem swapping commanders in the air, we do it all the time. I say "I am going to snooze do you want to fly an hour, my mate says yes I have control, I say you have control" the P1 is swapped by agreement and I have a snooze!

Not rocket science and not difficult!!! No need to land and fill in paperwork.

If there is a problem the P1 deals with it. If he needs help he asks for it. Simple.

Julian

2nd Jun 2005, 09:07

Too right Mr Bose, lot of fuss over something simple.

I have had the same situation as EA when flying back into the LA basin at night with a mate who (at the time but not now:O ) didnt have an IR. The whole basin has a tendency to fill up with cloud (the marine layer). I put the magic PIC hat on as well (or the PIC hoodie for the yoof of today heehee) and flew the approach.

No paperwork, no phonecalls, no tech log signoff, just a clear understanding of who was PIC of the aircraft for that leg/portion/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the journey. Whenever I fly with another pilot he/she handles the radios and the nav, I do the flying and the nav aids and likewise if we swap over.

Julian.

tmmorris

2nd Jun 2005, 10:57

Now that my friend (yes, I have only the one) has his NPPL we were planning to do some of this, but... how does one go about getting used to flying from the RH seat? Is it a big deal? I guess I should just ask an instructor to do some with me... I'm the more experienced pilot so I was going to volunteer for this seat, though perhaps he should, as I'm the only IMC-rated one and I don't fancy IFR in the wrong seat!

Tim