Cpl Or Ppl Holder Pic???
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Essex
Age: 38
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cpl Or Ppl Holder Pic???
hello everyone, i was wondering if any of you could tell me the rules of a PPL holder and CPL holder flying the same aircraft.
who logs what?
Does the CPL automatically get PIC or is it just whoever they agree to be captain for the flight?
who logs what?
Does the CPL automatically get PIC or is it just whoever they agree to be captain for the flight?
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, it is just whoever decides to be captain for the flight. For example, if the PPL owns his own aircraft, and carries the CPL (a friend of his) as a pasenger on a private flight, the PPL will log the time as P1, and the CPL will not be entitled to log it at all.
Indeed, you might find that if the CPL were to log the flight as P1 (and therefore the PPL not log it at all), the insurance would be invalid since the CPL would not be named on the insurance.
It's also not necessarilly valid to assume that the CPL is even more experienced than the PPL. It is possible to get a CPL with around 200 hours total time. Many PPLs have far, far more experience than this. Even a CPL or ATPL with many thousand hours may not be as experienced on light aircraft, or on the specific type of aircraft, as the PPL.
FFF
-------------
Indeed, you might find that if the CPL were to log the flight as P1 (and therefore the PPL not log it at all), the insurance would be invalid since the CPL would not be named on the insurance.
It's also not necessarilly valid to assume that the CPL is even more experienced than the PPL. It is possible to get a CPL with around 200 hours total time. Many PPLs have far, far more experience than this. Even a CPL or ATPL with many thousand hours may not be as experienced on light aircraft, or on the specific type of aircraft, as the PPL.
FFF
-------------
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Essex
Age: 38
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ok thanks for your help!
I think in the future we will do one flight his and one flight mine. I was also wondering, what if we both put P.1? I know we cant both be the commander but who would know?
I think in the future we will do one flight his and one flight mine. I was also wondering, what if we both put P.1? I know we cant both be the commander but who would know?
High Flying Bird
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Old Sarum ish
Posts: 2,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone who compared your log books would know. And so would you. Really, what's the point? Is your CPL-holder friend that desperate for hours? Personally, my log book is something I'm proud of; I've worked for every hour in it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Essex
Age: 38
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No he is not, I was just wondering thats all. As for someone comparing our log books, I have no idea why they would but thats a different issue all together.
Thanks for the help!
HAPPY FLYING!
Thanks for the help!
HAPPY FLYING!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what if we both put P.1? I know we cant both be the commander but who would know?
Frankly, it is rather disgraceful that someone would ask such a question. "I was just wondering that's all" indeed!
Personally, my log book is something I'm proud of; I've worked for every hour in it.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what a bizzare question! Does this stem from your CPL friend to assure you that as he is a CPL he must always be P1 cos a CPL makes him more important than "mere" PPL's?
Agree with the other comments on here, badges do not make for experiance. Flying the hours and the types make for experiance.
I also agree with aerbabe, I have worked for every minute of my flight time and would feel like I had cheated if I logged time that was not mine. A bit like knocking points of your golf score, you only cheat yourself!
Agree with the other comments on here, badges do not make for experiance. Flying the hours and the types make for experiance.
I also agree with aerbabe, I have worked for every minute of my flight time and would feel like I had cheated if I logged time that was not mine. A bit like knocking points of your golf score, you only cheat yourself!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Essex
Age: 38
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yes i agree with you lot, however i was more looking for an answer to the question about why would the caa compare both log books?
Also when we fly its the both of us that do the flying, not just the one. Take it in turns if you get me, this is where my confusion comes in as i dont beleive you can change from passenger to P.1 in flight.
Also when we fly its the both of us that do the flying, not just the one. Take it in turns if you get me, this is where my confusion comes in as i dont beleive you can change from passenger to P.1 in flight.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i was more looking for an answer to the question about why would the caa compare both log books?
I don't know if you are consciously or subconsciously inventing ex post facto justifications for your posts, but it is only making things worse.
Your question contemplated what can only be defined as deliberate fraud, and that it why it upset people. Aviation is heavily regulated, but (by and large) the authorities allow pilots considerable latitude, on the assumption that they are honourable and trustworthy people. Usually, that assumption is fully justified.
I sincerely hope that you have learned a valuable lesson and will decide not to pursue a "who would know?" attitude in your flying career.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is nothing wrong with both pilots flying in turn. I often share a long leg in the twin with my flying partner. We agree the specific time that the P1 changes and then log ONLY the time that we were P1. On a short leg we dont bother as it becomes a pain to track.
As MLS12D states this is a question of honour not a question of whether the CAA would actually compare the 2 log books.
If either are really that desperate for hours then do more flying!
As MLS12D states this is a question of honour not a question of whether the CAA would actually compare the 2 log books.
If either are really that desperate for hours then do more flying!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who signed the tech log for the flight? That will define who was P1. Or at least will give the CAA something to cross reference with a log book. Sounds to me as if you need to do some CRM so that if something does go wrong, you each know who is going to do what. And before you ask about logging P2 time, P2 time can only be logged on notified multi crew aircraft.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Essex
Age: 38
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ok lesson learnt guys/girls.... Just a question to something BOSE-X wrote; i still dont know the answer to my questions, are you allowed to say i am doing the first hour or two and you are doing the other hour etc, then log it like that?
If so, how do you log the destination when your part of the flying ends? This is where i get confused?!?!
I mean if you are on an obvious longer than 2 hour flight and only log 1.5 hours but still write the same airports in, wont they think its the pilots or something for not logging the flight correctly if the log book happens to be checked?
Also just to clarify, is there NO reason why a CPL holder should be captain over a PPL holder? The way it sounded to by him was as if they automatically captain because they hold a 'better' licence. You know just like you can have a SGT in the army who been there for 20 years but an officer who just passed out of sandhust is automatically in charge.
If so, how do you log the destination when your part of the flying ends? This is where i get confused?!?!
I mean if you are on an obvious longer than 2 hour flight and only log 1.5 hours but still write the same airports in, wont they think its the pilots or something for not logging the flight correctly if the log book happens to be checked?
Also just to clarify, is there NO reason why a CPL holder should be captain over a PPL holder? The way it sounded to by him was as if they automatically captain because they hold a 'better' licence. You know just like you can have a SGT in the army who been there for 20 years but an officer who just passed out of sandhust is automatically in charge.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then comes the argument about who takes responsibility in the event of an accident. If you have one pilot who is more experienced than the other, but is not down as PIC, should they take control in the event of a problem?
I believe there has been a case where an FI was sitting in the back of an a/c which crashed and he was prosecuted for NOT having taken over from the less experienced PPL who was flying. A great situation to be in!!
I believe there has been a case where an FI was sitting in the back of an a/c which crashed and he was prosecuted for NOT having taken over from the less experienced PPL who was flying. A great situation to be in!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Essex
Age: 38
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes but as stated earlier just because they are a cpl holder, it does not mean they are more experienced, espically when it comes to light aircraft flying. I get the opinion many cpl holders often think they are better than ppl holders, but i think this is plain wrong.
As said before, a new cpl holder is no way as experienced as someone who has been flying for 30 years but still only holds a ppl. I dont think the attitude of a lot of cpl holders thinking they automatically become captain just because their licence is 'better' than a ppl holder.
As said before, a new cpl holder is no way as experienced as someone who has been flying for 30 years but still only holds a ppl. I dont think the attitude of a lot of cpl holders thinking they automatically become captain just because their licence is 'better' than a ppl holder.