Near Miss on Wednesday

[Corporal Jones]

Anyone know anything about a near miss between a Baby 737 and a 'fast jet' that occurred on Wednesday (I think) causing the plane to be temporarily grounded due to 'over revving' of one of the engines? G-OGBD was the reg, I am led to believe and 400ft was the distance!

[Spitoon]

Why not ask the CAA?

[WindSheer]

Come on then media mafia - put it in the papers!!
:mad:

[ILS 119.5]

"AIRMISS" is the technical term!

[spekesoftly]

"AIRMISS" is the technical term!

AIRPROX is the correct technical term!


"The agreed definition of an Airprox is a situation in which, in the opinion of a pilot or a controller, the distance between aircraft as well as their relative positions and speed have been such that the safety of the aircraft involved was or may have been compromised."

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

It wouldn't be the one where the airliner bust his cleared level against a Tornado in the TILNI Corridor, would it?

[lawnraker]

Inbound to Manchester, from Venice, Wednesday, approx 13:40pm. As passengers, my wife and I were disturbed by the proximity of another jet which flew west - east underneath us. We were aboard Jet 2.com 737 200 G-CHIA.

[wiltshirebhoy]

that'll be a 737 that doesn't exist with a reg of G-CHIA?

:hmm:

[lawnraker]

maybe G-CHIO? Sounded faintly Italian to us!!!!

[hobie]

here are a few to keep you going ....

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=14&pagetype=65&applicationid=7&newstype=a

[WorkingHard]

Apart from 1 of those in the link that Hobie kindly provided they were all civil/military approxes. How do we get this situation ocurring with 2 sets of "professional" pilots (professional as opposed to GA)?

[electriclightfoot]

You're all wrong......

The technical term is 'f*****g close'. And thats only if you can tell the eye colour of at least one of the other pilots.

Apologies for being so pedantic

[ILS 119.5]

"How do we get this wrong"

Not enough staff
Too many aircraft
Too many trainees
Lack of management planning

Think about it, we can fly a sector with trainees in the cockpit and on the ground, who cares. Tell the public thet they are flying with trainees! We all had to do it but it needs better monitorong and control. But no one will do it!

I look forward to your comments,

Rgds

ILS 119.5

[lawnraker]

Whoa! Whoa! Back to the original question, boys and girls. Was there an 'airprox' last Wednesday involving a Jet 2 737 -300? And just to satisfy my curiosity, how far should 'separation' be?

[Capt.KAOS]

From the CAA report:

"These details are subject to assessment by the independent UK Airprox Board. During 2003 there were 64 Airprox incidents involving commercial air transport and 83% of these were assessed as having no risk of collision."

In other words, 17% of the 64 aiproxes (airproxii?) = 11 did have a risk of collision?

[Slaphead]

Inkjet,

Level busts are not the biggest single cause of airproxes in the UK, nor is the use of a conditional clearance the cause of the majority of level busts.

The largest causal factor in level busts in the UK in 2003 and 2004 are events where a pilot reads back the correct level from an ATC clearance but then, for some reason, the aircraft climbs or descends to an incorrect level. Some, but by no means all, of these will be at levels which are known to cause confusion, for example FL100 and FL110.

The second largest causal factor in level busts in the UK for the same period involve pilots failing to follow a SID correctly.

[unablereqnavperf]

Mike Jeveny
Thats true but not bad when at least 80% of pilots that did not train in the UK do not know the call exists in the first place. Given the sub standerd RT from various European flag carriers(Iberia,Alitalia,Olympic to name but a small sample) and even worse comprehension coming in from the Gulf states its a wonder LATCE don't have more!

The standerd of english comprehension is getting worse every day its high time that this becomes a higher priority and if you cannot make the grade in the international langauge of the airways then you should not be flying them.

Its no wonder these guys don't improve as in their own country they can use their own language to confuse the rest of us!(France and Spain seem to exell at this)

Mind you some American crew don't shine either!

ATC: American XX route direct STRUMBLE... DIKAS
American XX: Ma'am did you just call me a dick ass

God help me when CPDLC comms become the norm I'll have to learn how to spell!!!!!

[eastern wiseguy]

Inkjet...


ATC will provide at least 5 miles

Not strictly true ..I can and do operate 3 miles/1000 feet .That is of course as an approach controller in class d airspace..


Lawnraker

As passengers, my wife and I were disturbed by the proximity of another jet which flew west - east underneath us

disturbed? in what way? where you flying the aircraft? please elaborate!What was the type of the second aircraft? was it close? did it simply look close?

[Irish Steve]

ATC: American XX route direct STRUMBLE... DIKAS

And what a:mad:e came up with DIKAS in the first place? I know it's getting hard to produce ID's that are identifiable and unique, but I have some sympathy with any pilot that is surprised and maybe unhappy with that one.

I am sure that there are probably other ID's that pronounced in certain ways are very offensive to non English speakers, so why single out Americans for this one, under certain circumstances, I could get caught or offended by something like this, and I don't easily or quickly take offence.

You use the ID's all day long, some (quite a few) pilots will never have heard it before, and may never hear it again, depending on who they fly for, and their normal area of operation.

Many of the points raised here in the latter part of the discussion are valid, but the thread started in a very strange manner, has the possibility of being a complete red herring, and with comments like this, stands a good chance of being dumped or worse, which helps no one.

[BEXIL160]

Hmmm.. Poor phraseology by "non English" pilots.

Not always the case in my experience. Iberia and Air Portugal have been mentioned and I am bound to say that the standard of RT from the peninsula is actually very good in most cases.

Contrast that with Air France and Alitalia. Now, I believe there is a reason behind their apparent difficulty in understanding and it's not to do with standard phraseology.

No, I understand most Italian and French Pilots learn aviation English from Americans. Hence when hearing English spoken in an English regional (or Irish or Scots etc) accent they find it very difficult. The same I suspect is true of American pilots themselves flying in UK skies.

All to do with "perception" you see.

Rgds BEX

[Slaphead]

Mike Jenvey,

Just to follow up your comments with a bit more information; (% are approximate)

Missed read-back error (pilot read back is wrong and is audible, ATCO fails to hear and correct the error) accounts for about 10% of level busts,

Incorrect read back by pilot accounts for about 8% of level busts

Read back by wrong aircraft (taking a call intended for another pilot) accounts for about 6% of level busts

Poor manual handling, aircraft technical problem and altimeter setting error each account for about 5% of level busts.

[Warped Factor]

The NATS Level Best (http://www.levelbust.com/) campaign.

WF.

[Mentaleena]

eastern wiseguy

Just a short true story: Once some years ago the #1 came in and said, Captain the couple in row 3 were "extremely concerned to see an aircraft pass just underneath us and very close just now."

I replied: well, go back and tell the couple that "as long as it wasn't a lorry, we're alright".

Hehehehehe :ok:

[The Ugly Fend Off]

I think this is the incident that was reported in The People, 08 May 05. The 'warplane' that was three seconds from colliding with the 737 was in fact a pair of training aircraft that were; visual with and positioned themselves behind, the airliner. Hence no record of the event from the military side

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Mentaleena - brilliant! We have a similar sense of humour. I nearly fell off my rubber ring!

[Irish Steve]

A good few years ago, pre 9-11, when jump seats were not an issue, I was travelling DUB-BRU, and we heard a call from ATC, Shamrock xxx, opposite direction traffic 10 miles at FL280, with us at the time at 270. Call was acknowledged, and 3 pairs of eyes went out of the window. It didn't take long to spot, it was reciprocal heading, 1000 Ft above us, closing speed was of course massive, and in a few seconds, it went directly over us. We commented at the time that we were happy that ATC had told us about it, as at that level and speed, (and this was pre full TCAS implementation), it was not immediately clear if it was above us, and as it went past, 1000 Ft looked like a very small gap indeed.

I've sat in the hold at Bovingdon more than a few times (again on the jump seat) and on a clear day, it's amazing to look out of the windows at more than a few aircraft all flying round one above the other, and I can well see how some people would be concerned at seeing another aircraft so close.

I've also seen the rivets down the side of a Dan Air 1-11, we were doing VOR radial tracking training with a full radar service from Dunsfold at 2400 Ft over Midhurst, and the LGW controller had suppressed all non LGW returns, and positioned the 1-11 over Midhurst on the base of the TMA at 2500 Ft to allow it to position from Lasham back to LGW.

That was a hell of a sight closer that we were comfortable with, and to be fair, the Dunsfold controller that was giving us a radar service at the time filed the airmiss for us. He was less than impressed too, as it happened very fast, though he was able to give us about 15 seconds warning of "opposite direction traffic, level unknown, not working with me", so I'm guessing that the 1-11 didn't have mode C on at the time.

It was another of those IFR sorts of days, where we were in and out of the layers, ideal for IFR training, but worrying when something that size pops out of a cloud almost on top of you

(And in passing, what is it about VOR's that they seem to act like magnets to the largest and nastiest CB's within 100 Miles? The number of times I had to go round rather than go through at places like BCN & STU were legion ;) )

Then there was the Cherokee from Belgium to Biggen that blasted across Lydd's procedural approach path at 1500 Ft on a very iffy day when we were doing ILS training, it popped out of a cloud 200 Mtrs in front of us, and went into another almost immediately. Again, we'd been sort of warned, Kent Radar had called Lydd to tell them this eeejit was about to blast through, so Lydd were just telling us about it when we saw it!

[Dan Dare]

And what a:mad:e came up with DIKAS in the first place?

Many years ago a young controller agreed to do a spell in ATC ops and picked the rudest sounding reporting point she could get away with. I think she did rather well. Another jazzy way to raise a smile was to dream up reporting point combinations that would be available to raise a smile for years to come...

[Farrell]

Just to let you know that I am single-handedly trying to curb the language barrier for pilots here in France.

I give private language training in RT here in Lyon. At the moment I have a steady stream of pilots from Air France and also guys from GA and a lot of student pilots.

If anyone wants to know more about that you can PM me.

I don't mean to advertise this so if this post is deleted that's fine with me....but if you want the situation to improve....then maybe some of you know someone who needs help.

I don't charge a lot - it's the safety factor that is enough reward.....remember I plan to fly up there someday!!