PPL advice please!

[ChewyTheWookie]

Hi folks.

I live in the Heathrow area and am trying to find a decent but cheap flying school to do my JAR PPL. I can't afford to do it all in one go but should be able to squeeze in a lesson or two every couple of weeks. Can anyone recommend where to go? Any other tips and advice would be very much appreciated.

[VP8]

The Pilot Centre at Denham just up the road!!

VEEPS

[Saab Dastard]

Try the West London Club at White Waltham, best aero club around London. And no, I'm not a member - too far away!

[flyingchuck1]

In my experience cheap is not always the best option in aviation.:ok:

[ChewyTheWookie]

Thanks for the advice. How much would you suggest is a reasonable price to pay for tuition. I'm not bothered which aircraft I learn in as I don't know enough about them yet. Any recommendations would be helpful tho!

[LondonJ]

A ball park figure is between 6 and 8k, this depends on the type of aircraft, quality of school, airfield etc. Have you considered the US option, much cheaper! There is plenty of information dotted around this site. Type Florida in the search box and you'll have a lifetime's reading.

[Obs cop]

Chewy,

Although not from your area and therefore not able to advise on a specific school, I would suggest the following.

Cheap does not always mean poor instruction, likewise expensive does not guarantee good instruction. In comparing costs you need to get all of your comparable schools to one baseline.

Aircraft time can be charged as either on the Hobbs meter (which is operated and therefore starts running the moment the negine does) or brakes off to brakes on (therefore you are not paying for the considerable time it may take you as a learner to complete the after start checks etc.

Likewise, some clubs quote prices without VAT, others require considerable club membership fees and some incorporate landing fees into the hourly rate whilst some don't.

I would therefore largley suggest that assessing a school by cost alone is difficult because you need to get each price onto the same level playing field. Your aim is to learn and so the best and quickest way to learn will be to put yourself into an environment , you feel you can learn best in which means that your cash will not be wasted repeating exercises because you are not happy with your training.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ever pay a club large sums of money up front. If they fold you will never see that money again and likewise any reputable club will be happy to deal with you hour by hour financially.

Lastly, visit all the clubs within striking distance (some flying magazines have where to fly guides, but the one I prefer is the GA Directory on www.flyer.co.uk). Speak to instructors and students alike to get a feel for the place. Have a mouch round the aircraft and take in the atmosphere.

Generally speaking the cheapest aircraft to learn on are cessna 152's and they are very abundant, but again being cheapest does not guarantee best.

Regards

Obs cop

[cessna l plate]

Got to agree with all the advice here. I chose the cheapest option when I started, and made what can be described as a fortunate mistake. The club I fly at is A1, but i think I just dropped lucky.

My own story is one of running out of money. Nowadays I fly about 5 hours per year to keep my hand in at the basics, this means I am approaching 30 hours in the book, and my last proper lesson was first solo 18 months ago.

The way a person learns a new skill means that there has to be continuity. For instance, my landings now, when I do fly, are well below par, certainly not good enough to go solo, and yet 18 months ago they were! My skills have gone rusty.

What does this mean for you? Well, we all know the feeling of stretched finances, aviation is never cheap, or inexpensive. To be engaged in this level of aviation you need to be either a millionaire or like most of us, be prepared to make the odd sacrifice in life to pursue a dream.

If you can afford a lesson every other week or so, then it will take you nearly twice as long as perhaps it should. Lesson one will no doubt be "straight and level". Lesson two if a couple of days later would be a little of this, and then onto turning or whatever. However if lesson two is a fortnight later, then it is probably going to be at least half an hour of revision, as you will have forgotten what to do in straight and level and will need to brush it up. And so the story carries on like that.

Furthermore, always remember that the elements rarely agree that pleasure flying is a good idea. If you book every other week, I will be surprised if you don't get weathered off at least once a month.

The Florida option is always a good one as you will concentrate your learning curve and the information will soak in better. In addition to this, as you are in another country, and in a purely aviation enviroment this will aid your learning as you will not be thinking "I've got to walk the dog, wash the pots, take the wife out etc..." on final approach!!

My advice, if you are young enough is save up!! When you have enough in the bank go and look at the schools around you. Also look at training abroad, Spain is an up and coming market in this respect, and you don't have to jump through hoops to get a visa either! When you have decided on a short list, if a foreign school, post again on here and get some feed back about the standards and the way training is done etc.
If you are looking at UK schools, go and book a trial lesson at two or three. You will not only get to see the school, meet the instructors and sample the aircraft, but you will be able to see what you get for your money. Don't forget that you can also put these hours in your log book!

For instance, when I chose my school, I had trial lessons at Barton, Manchester and Liverpool. LPL gave me everything that I was looking for at the right price!!! But don't forget that some schools charge landing fees seperatly. Not too great a problem in the early stages, but when you start on the circuit (landings and take offs) you will pay for every landing. This means that an hour in the curcuit costs say £100, and a landing is £5, six circuits will cost an additional £30, total lesson £130. This may be offset against a cheaper membership fee, but do your sums, a large membership fee and no landing fees may balance out better for you, or may be more expensive.

But the 3 best pieces of advice that I can give you are these...
1. DO NOT PAY UPFRONT
2. DO NOT PAY UPFRONT
3. MAKE NO UPFRONT PAYMENT

The history of learning to fly is littered with clubs who have gone belly up and taken all the students hard earned cash down the U bend with them. Be aware that running a flying club is not the way to make a fortune, sadly there are those who think otherwise, they aren't generally around for that long, but just long enough to take some poor sods money with them. A good, reputable club will have no problem with "pay as you go". Some offer packages, such as £500 for 5 hours for example, and these are a good idea, and will give you some sort of saving. Plus if they go belly up, you haven't lost it all. But if they insist on payment in full, upfront, WALK AWAY VERY QUICKLY!!


Whatever you decide to do, good luck and happy flying!

[drizzle]

.

LondonJ

I am very cofused, the guy asks about training locally near Heathrow and you suggest Florida !!!!!!

Why would you do that ?

Why would anyone want to train for a PPL in Florida when they live and fly somewhere else ?

On a slightly different track, what has ' cheap ' got to do with training other than for individuals where money is a real issue.

For myself I would always look for ' value for money ' as a means of figuing out what to purchase, be it flying training, cars or MP3 players.

I beleve housing and the cost of living is cheaper in Florida.........lets all move out there !!!


p.s Denham and White Waltham are close to you



.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Drizzle, I believe he was just making a suggestion that he may like to have a look at... especially seeing as FL offers training at 1/2, 1/3, somtimes 1/4 the cost of a standard PPL over here!

But in terms of UK training, I couldn't falter what any of the guys above have put forward. I for one was fortunate enough to pay an up front dough and get my money's worth, but be very very wary - best advice is (as already suggested) STEER CLEAR OF ANY SCHOOL MAKING MANDAT. A PAYMENT IN FULL!

Cheers, Jack.

[Bob Stinger]

Im not so sure i agree with the no upfront payment, if you find a school that has been around a while ,looks good and feels right ask them if they do a discount for partial payment, here at Blackpool some schools offer 10% off if you pay £1500 to start an account then just pay some in to your account when its empty.
Others offer buy 10 hours get one free i think these are good deals, incentives for you to use your time/money quicker so you will fly more. At least one of the clubs also offers the 10% for IMC, CPL etc , now are we really to believe that we shouldnt take advantage of this? If you dont thats fine you pay full price if you do you take a very very small risk (with the clubs i have mentioned) and you get the reward.

[cessna l plate]

Bob
No problem with incentive discounts like you describe, but only to a point.

What we are all saying is stay away from those that want it all upfront.

If you pay £1000 into an account, and keep topping it up all well and good, and should the unthinkable happen, then all you have lost is that amount.

However, could you imagine paying all the PPL training costs into an account in one go?? If they then go belly up on you, youv'e lost upwards of £6000 in one go.

That said, I for one cannot afford even £1k if there's a chance I might lose it.

The advice is yes, incentive related discounts are worth looking at, just don't pay everything upfront, and be conservative in what you do pay upfront.

Also, be aware that a school that seems really pushy about getting you into one of these schemes MAY have a cash flow problem and look at this as a quick fix, with your money!!!! That isn't to say that all offers are like that, but it should be at the back of your mind.

[BartonBoy]

ChewyTheWookie,

I suppose this depends entirely upon how far you willing to commute and at what cost.

I would strongly recommend Old Sarum Flying Club, Salisbury. One thing in particular i have noticed about Old Sarum is that they allow students to take flying at their own pace. In addition to this they also offer the type of discount schemes and accounts that Bob Stinger discussed. For example if you are willing to pay £1000 up front, the club will put an additional 10% (£100) into your account. This stands for every £1000 placed in your account.

Alternatively, they also offer both a PPL special deal and also a frequent flyers scheme.

Or if you'd really like, just pay as you go.

If you'd like any further information please call Old Sarum Flying Club on 01722 322525

Hope this helps,

BB

[foxmoth]

Generally speaking the cheapest aircraft to learn on are cessna 152's
Not always the case and to many people not the nicest machine, at Goodwood the cheapest is a Robin operated by the Plessey group, a low powered version, but still a lot nicer IMHO then a Cessna or Piper;)

[AerBabe]

The cheapest aircraft to learn on are often microlights... ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

And certainly there are many modern microlights a lot more pleasant to fly than a knackered old Cessna 152.

G

[AerBabe]

There are plenty of older microlights that are more pleasant to fly than a new C152.

[Genghis the Engineer]

When did Cessna last produce a 152? I'd be surprised if there are any out there with less than 1000 hours on the airframe, and most rather more than that.

And as you say, there are many great fun older microlights out there, costing around £4-£8k and around £25/hr to run.

G

[Confabulous]

Seems production stopped in 1985 (thank the gods) - and since most of them are trainers, methinks anything lower then 1000hrs would be rare indeed!

Last time I was up in one (an Aerobat), the instructor showed me an aileron roll (starting in level flight). We ended up 30 degree nose down and heading towards Vne (and he kept wondering why). It was only then that I realised he wasn't trained in aerobatics :ugh:

Not the 152's fault, for once!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Let's be fair, the C152 is a perfectly safe and easy to fly aeroplane, it's just old, ugly and boring.

G

[airborne_artist]

Let's be fair, the C152 is a perfectly safe and easy to fly aeroplane, it's just old, ugly and boring

I thought it was the dog's whatsits aged 17 on a flying scholarship at Luton in 1977 though! Anyone remember the short (400m) grass rw at the E end of the main?

[Obs cop]

Generally speaking the cheapest aircraft to learn on are cessna 152's

You will note the use of the word generally in my post.:E

One of the most common training aircraft most people encounter is a C152, and compared to it's contemporaries it is also quite cheap.

However, it is not the cheapest, sexiest or most capable trainer out there, not by a long chalk. Hence I said generally.

As per my first post, my advice still stands to visit the clubs in an area first and foremost. Only then can you establish what they fly, how much it really costs and more importantly whether you want to learn there.:ok:

[benhurr]

C152 is one of the easiest aircraft to fly but one of the hardest to fly well.

As a trainer it is particularly good because it is easy to show how such a seemingly placid aircraft can bite your arse if you dont treat it with respect.

What I am saying is that it misbehaves when you (you=instructor) want it to.

If only it was three inches wider...

If this thread was about slagging off a PA28-161 then I would be in total agreement but I love C152's because as a training tool they are yet to be beaten.

P.S. A totally biased, emotionally laden viewpoint and nothing will change my mind so dont even bother arguing any point made above!

[Obs cop]

Benhurr,

I have to agree with you concerning the C152's training pedigree.

I actually quite like flying the 152. I have flown faster, more modern, more aerobatic, more powerful and more capable aircraft, but the overall trump card of a 152 is how versatile an it can be as a training tool.

regards

Obs cop

[ChewyTheWookie]

Thanks for all the help. I have reconsidered my options and have decided it might be better to fast track my PPL in the USA. I like the look of this school http://www.ukft.com/ For a start it is less than half the price of a course in the UK and that includes the loss of earnings during my time off!

Can anyone comment? Anyone know where I can find out honest opinions about this school?

[GonTek]

Hello All

Something to note when asked to pay up front :
I believe paying by credit card will give you an insurance if anything goes wrong.
As a member of the former Newcastle Aero Club before it went into and came out of administration,at the meeting it was mentioned this may be possible as a few had paid up front for lessons they were not going to get.

Hope this helps..


GT

[BroomstickPilot]

Chewy,

Any school you care to attend, whether in the UK or overseas, will almost certainly have been the subject of posts on this site.

I therefore suggest you use the search facility and you should come up with a wealth of info on any school you care to name.

I strongly agree that doing PPL overseas and all in one go is best.

However, if you find you do have to use the UK schools afterall, I suggest you should take a look at the London Transport Club at Fairoaks.

It used to be for London Transport staff only, but now it is open to all. I'm not a member and haven't visited them for a year or so, but they used to have some very good flying rates bearing in mind how close to London they are.

Best of luck,

Broomstick.

[Dan Dare]

If you are considering the microlight route you could do a lot worse than this:

http://www.leadingedgeaero.co.uk/index.html

I have no connection with the group, but the microlights are much better all round than the standard club spam, they go places at speed and you can afford to fly them (I think the eurostar is a marginally better aircraft). Microlighting is less beaurocratic and if you decide to go larger, then there is not much to do to cross qualify.