Fowarding 'Idents' before being asked..

[FourTrails]

A growing number of my colleagues departing Belfast (BFS) are making initial contact with Radar with the typical
"Aldergrove Radar, xxx123, Bla bla bla, IDENTING 4567"
as they know an Ident and passing level would otherwise be requested from them in the next transmission.

The response more often than not from friends in ATC would be "Thanks for the Ident ..... "

The situation is further developing where guys are also doing the same when handed over to the next sector (Scottish). However many of the Scottish Controller still ask for the Ident again.

Forgetting the 'its handy' and 'provides continuous climb' arguments - could someone with expertise in this field please let me know if this is correct practise as I dont think it is.

(Wasn't there some incident years ago of a BA & BMI with crossed XPDR codes and misinterpreted idents?)

Ta very much

4T

[Lock n' Load]

It's incorrect in my opinion. An ident should be observed AFTER it is asked for in order to validate the squawk. You could otherwise be identing at the same time as someone else on the frequency, the request for which may have come just before you arrived on the freq. There are also plenty of instances of idents down to finger trouble or a dodgy transponder. Just yesterday, a King Air was identing for the whole flight from Calgary to Edmonton...

[BALIX]

Yup, the pilot should only ident when asked to do so by the controller. It really is that simple.

The mistaken identity case mentioned took place quite a few years ago and, if I remember rightly, was caused by the transposing of squarks after take off and the data was transferred manually between ScACC and LATCC. Of course we are all connected to the same super duper computer now so that could never happen :rolleyes:

[Standard Noise]

Personally, I find it a bit distracting when one of my deps idents before I've requested it. It can draw my attention away from what I'm doing. Anyway, if I don't happen to notice it, I'll ask for it if it's needed, ergo, extra workload for the pilot (and therefore less time to drink their coffee!).
Thankfully, it doesn't happen much at Brizzel.

[brain fade]

IMHO it's a 'smart arse' thing to do done by people who are less smart than they realise. Do it when you are asked to:ok:

[Don't Tell Him Pike]

IMHO it's a 'smart arse' thing to do done by people who are less smart than they realise. Do it when you are asked to
That's bit harsh! It's done with the best of intentions I'm sure, but really pilots shouldn't ident until instructed, for the reasons listed above. In addition to those reasons, aircraft may be below the rarar cover of the unit they're calling whilst they're passing the unrequested ident, therefore wasting the pilots time with the original ident.
So, in summary, please don't ident until instructed. I know you're trying to help, but it's not doing any good!

Cheers
DTHP

[FourTrails]

This is what I was hoping to hear. The 'smart ass' thing might not be far from the truth ';-)'

Any BFS ATCO's care to comment?

[AlanM]

Squawking Ident before being asked can delay you - as I have to wait for it to stop, then get you to squawk ident again, then I can turn/climb you.

I was on a fam flight with a large operator out of LCY last month, and they thought they were helping in identing on their own, so rarely it isn't really smart arse mentality.

The passing level on first call can help though.

[Tinpot Radio]

I didn't think you bothered identifying anything anyway Mr.M, and "squawk ident" was for the benefit of the tapes!!

As for verifying Mode C, what the hell does that mean in English?

Hope you are enjoying your days off.

Luv Tinpot!

[ShyTorque]

As a mere pilot, I'd guess that an unverified mode C is one where a controller sees an altitude annotation on his screen but hasn't spoken to the pilot to confirm he is actually at that altitude. Therefore the mode C can't be relied on at that stage.

A verified mode C is where the altitude HAS been cross-checked & confirmed.

Alan M will correct me where necessary, I know :ok:

[Capt.Paul Skinback]

Standard,
Not in the last 3years have I had a request from BRS for an Ident. Must have missed it while ordering the cheese board.
Keep up the excellent work though!
Ps When is Ground going to open???????

[AlanM]

ShyT is correct as always. Gold star and a direct Brent-Batt with no delay to you old chap!!!

Don't worry about Tinpot Radio.... He does it properly some times:)

[Tinpot Radio]

Sometimes yes:

- LCE

- When visitors are about

- When watch manager standing behind

I think that's about it!

[surface wind]

FourTrails

As a BFS man myself....I don't care if you push the button....or I ask you to do it.....either way I've issued an outbound clearance and if you pop up on the radar off the correct end.....well its done and dusted in my book.....

However.......some ATCOs who play exactly by the rules will be horrified at my lack of prof :E .As it (Scottish accent here for all those who work at BFS) 'says in the book' I should ask for the ident and observe the pilot identing.......

Today I had the senario 1 off City, 1 off me and one transfered to Scottish...all identing at the same time....

What (IMHO) feel is more important is the level check on climb-out to verify Mode C and the CLEARED LEVEL, which is vitally more important.

SW

p.s. its worth watching the video of the Midland and Shuttle on the wrong squawks....

p.p.s as Tinpot Radio says I may ask you for ident again if

1. SRG are behind me
2. My LCE is plugged in

ppps. Just wondering if you were downwind today at 2.4A or 2.5A:E

[Mike Rosewhich]

Don't do it.

MATS Part 1 (CAP493) Section 1, Chapter 5, para 4.1(c)

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Daft question, 'cos i'm a little out of practise and don't have a CAP 493 to hand, but why do controllers need to observe an ident? Surely observance of a pre-assigned 4 dig code is normally good enough, especially on a departing aircraft following a SID?

I stand by to be corrected.

[Carbide Finger]

Doesn't that method have to be within a mile of getting off the deck.

I am also standing by to be corrected

As a side, when the lows and slows (but still commercial) are joining the airway they often give their life story. Their clearance has already been given to them by the last agency. All we need (and usually want) is what level they are (or climbing to) and what point they're heading to.

It's amazing how many times when you're short of RT time a life story crops up from the joiner!

Rant over

CF

[VectorLine]

Increasing number of EUJet pilots doing it too as they climb out from Manston.

I know you think your helping folks, but your not. Please wait to be asked.

[spekesoftly]

Surely observance of a pre-assigned 4 dig code is normally good enough,

Correct according to said CAP 493. Perhaps some local unit instructions require additional use of SPI ?
Many years ago, in the UK, it was routine to instruct departing aircraft to 'IDENT', in order to trigger the code/call sign conversion.



Doesn't that method have to be within a mile of getting off the deck.

Suggest you are thinking of the Departing Aircraft Method of Identification using PRIMARY radar.

[Carbide Finger]

And there it is!

Speke, thanks very much. Very rarely do I have to ident any traffic, never by the departing method. Thanks for the correction!

CF's going back into his corner.

[Firestorm]

As an Fo, I have been told off for lots and lots and lots of things, but relevant to this thread:

-not identing when calling into a new freq

-asking a captain who has just idented without being asked if he's correct in so doing

both of the above by both line captains and training captains.

And it really gets on my mammeries when the captain gives you guys a 'War and Peace' handover. Mind you, there are one or two ATCOs who need verbal immodium as well!

This is a good thread, but should not be kept to yourselves, but shoved prominently and aggressively under (some) pilot's noses, and kept there until they read it and understand it!

[coracle]

I think the IDENT in the London TMA also triggers the computer to actvate the flight plan within the Host Computer, so that the sectors down route ( within UK airspace I think ) of the flight get strips with accurate time estimates.

[FourTrails]

Surface Wind

Thankyou for your local input.

Yes, yesterday I had a 2.4A & 2.5A both outside 10nm and today a 2.4A at 16!! (shock horror ha ha)

I thank you or one of your colleagues for his professional explanation on the reasonings for 2.5A - further clearance to 2.4 inside 10 though is appreciated for the procedure.

Good fun working with you guys, especially when its busy - Randalstown was looking fine today! Speak tomorrow.

4T :ok:

[eastern wiseguy]

Just out of interest I noticed virtually NO un requested idents from the usual suspects this morning....you must all read PPrune......now I wonder if we could start a "BHD runway thread":p :p :p