View Full Version : Oil in the airconditioning!

9th Dec 2001, 21:19
A very interesting program on UK radio 4 right now!! In particular relating to Bae 146 and B757. Very interesting!

9th Dec 2001, 21:31
Have a look at the following for details-- http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/genre/genre_news.shtml#file

9th Dec 2001, 21:35
See THIS (http://www.aopis.org)

9th Dec 2001, 21:47
Thanks Snooky- even more interesting! I flew the 146 for 13 years and had more flu-type bronchial illness than at any other period in my life. Some days we had to start the APU then get off the aircraft for a while whilst the initial oil burnt out of the system! At last the truth is coming out!

Raw Data
10th Dec 2001, 04:07
Hmmm funny that, I still start that 146 APU every other day, and guess what, no fumes! But then, you don't get fumes if you maintain your APU, engines and AC packs properly! Not spraying de-icing fluid all over the APU bay helps too.

Bad as it is that the 146 has quite wrongly been saddled with a reputation for fumes problems, it is somewhat satisfying to see the number of serious incidents the 757 has had... kind of puts to bed the lie that this is a 146-specific problem...

10th Dec 2001, 05:21
Raw Data, I have eight different types on my licence, and the 146 is the only one that ever gave aircon fumes.

If it was just a matter of maintenance...exactly what ammount of maintenance is required such that operators from Europe to Australia to the US have all had the same complaint?

10th Dec 2001, 12:24
This is not a type specific problem,just that some are more prone to contamination than others.bmir have had more than their fair share of incidents with the EMB145.

10th Dec 2001, 13:16
Iīm so glad you take joy in other peoples missory, but your igonarance in this matter is obvious. On the 146, you donīt get fumes in the aircon for any other reason than that the APU is worn, any knowing YOUR fleet of 146īs it is astounding that you have never experienced Aircon smoke.
P.S. Does your De-icing staff spray De-icing fluid into the APU bay ? and if so WHY ?????

blue up
10th Dec 2001, 15:26
Been smoked out on a 757. Air pressure seals on the engine core, apparently. Engine changed.
Sick as a dog for 3 days afterwards. Problem had been in the defects book for some time.
You could SEE the fumes when sparky came on board some 15 minutes after chocks.

Yes. The 757 has got a fumes problem history. Next time I WILL use the masks. Preety stupid not to have done it before.

10th Dec 2001, 16:17
Blue up, I'm not sure from your comment if you mean that a single event or several minor events occurred on your B757 fleet, but in the 146's I flew I was being poisoned every day.
And it worries me.

So far OK though. twitch twitch.

A and C
10th Dec 2001, 16:31
This 146 smoke in the air con has been overblown by the press , the fact is that eny aircraft that has a leaking seal in the engine/apu compressor will put smoke into the air con

The answer to the problem is to shut the suspect bleed valve , a problem with a pack is not likly to last very long as the bootstrap turbo compressor only carries about 1 USQT of oil and will seaze up when this is exhusted shutting down the pack likewise if you can determin which pack is playing up by looking at the indications then shut it down.

Greg Baddeley
10th Dec 2001, 17:31
Not just the press making a meal out of the 146 APU - CAA AD002-03-01 came out this year, and Honeywell were swamped with U/S Aircon packs; so much so, that they've upped their Power by the Hour fee!!

As to the de-ice fluid, it runs down the fin when you de-ice, and what's at the base of the fin??? APU Intake!!!!!!!!!!! Takes about 30 secs to vapourise the water/alcohol mix, leaving a funny boozy smell on the flight deck......bit like when the crew are on board :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

There's a simple Mod out that introduces a little gutter above the intake - works quite well, apparently, so our mob are going to give it a try. Watch this space!

Raw Data
10th Dec 2001, 18:04

Actually, it appears that you are the ignorant one- it can also come from the packs themselves.

I've read all the public domain stuff, as well as all the manufacturers briefings and the minutes of various conferences, not to mention industry-circulated reports and BAe bulletins, so one thing I am not is ignorant on the subject.

How you come to the conclusion that I take joy in others misery is bizarre to say the least. I'm interested in the facts, not emotive twaddle. The factsare that it is rare, and all but non-existent if the proper maintenance precautions are taken- which is why we haven't had a recurrence since introducing rigourous checks.

11th Dec 2001, 05:56
Me, me me... I've done this, I've done that..
The problem with the air quality in aircraft is varied so much that everyone is scratching their head over it, and it isn't dependent on the type of aircraft.
All aircraft use the same type of systems/design with parts manufactured by same people.
All engines leak oil passed internal seals at one time or another, hell some of that 1 qtr-3qtr a day used must find it's way in to the air system?
some aircraft have catalytic converters, ie some 146's, and they do work.
Maintenance? you mean heavy maintanance? All depends on the operator and cost, which will affect how well the packs and the engines are maintained.
Any way i've seen, (been with) crew who had a heavy night, jumped in to an aircraft, they were so ill they grounded the aircraft on the basis of oil smell in cabin which caused them illness!!
same aeroplane Was tested for two days using air quality test equipment.nothing.
Hmmm. too many variebles me think.

Raw Data
11th Dec 2001, 15:21
No-one is scratching their head.

The causes are well-known and extensively documented.

All aircraft CAN suffer from this problem, but some are more prone than others.

If your engines are using 1-3 quarts/day, they must be a little sick. Our 146s don't use anything like that much.

No, not heavy maintenance, simple inspections will do it.

No 146s have "catalytic converters".

The best test for contamination is to take a blood sample from an affected crewmember- sounds like the crew you were with might have had other "substances" in their blood than oil.

Very appropriate user name, BTW.

Greg Baddeley
11th Dec 2001, 17:23
Now now, children, no squabbling..........some 146's DO have cats (HCM00723) but they don't work, and disintegrate in the pipes, causing a nice shower of bits out of the back; so SB71-056-50217A has come out to delete them! We're doing it over the next two years.

Greg Baddeley
12th Dec 2001, 17:20
Oh yes; and change to a fourth generation oil like Mobil Jet 291 - much less toxic!

12th Dec 2001, 17:33
yes they are. have to modify aircraft to stop this.
you mentioned 146's again?
they do have catalysers fitted. on some just passed the bleed port.
and the engine will use +1 qrt on a 10 hr day. on a good engine. if only people logged these properly you would know.
and thanks for my name.
Why on many flights the crew are sick/ill and not the pax?

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: schit.furbraen ]

13th Dec 2001, 04:04
Well let's see now Shitforbrains.
Do you think it could be anything to do with the fact that a passenger may be exposed for 30 or 40 minutes while a crew member is likely to be dosed four or five times that in a day...every day?

14th Dec 2001, 05:42
I know that. I was refering to the crew complaining about anything all the time. in 20 years I haven't been sick yet. If it isn't the oil smell, it's the yaw damper, if it isn't the yaw damper it is shimmy, if it isn't... pay, working hours, contracts, F/O's, pension, other airlines... other pilots...etc.
it is fashionable to complain about what other pilots are complaining about.
I know. I do the same.

14th Dec 2001, 07:30
in 20 years I haven't been sick yet.

Ok, but let us all know when you get cancer. It might be any day now. (20 years? You poor bastard!)

If it isn't the oil smell, it's the yaw damper

I wasn't aware of yaw damper probs, but since you mention flight controls, have they sorted out the pitch oscillation problems yet? No? Hmmm, didn't think so. The last mod didn't work, so let's just ignore it, eh?
British solution to a British problem.

it is fashionable to complain about what other pilots are complaining about. I know. I do the same.

Bet you don't.

Greg Baddeley
14th Dec 2001, 17:35
maxalt.........would the pitch oscillation problems be something to do with the elevator damper mod that's coming out? Good news is it's Mandatory, but operators have until end of 2004 to get it done...can you 'Hold on' (excuse the pun) that long?