Light Aircraft Down, Today At Kemble (Merged)

[GMEDX]

Accident kemble this afternoon, any news?

[EddieHeli]

Plane crashed on takeoff between 14:30 and 15:00, severe fire on impact, fatal, don't know what type or how many souls on board.
We were having a meal in the restaurant when the crash alarm went off. Saw black smoke off end of runway, then massive flames before fire tender got there.
was stopped by police on leaving (by road) and told no-one got out.

condolences to all affected.

[sammypilot]

Latest from the BBC - Two on board, both fatal.

[EddieHeli]

here's the BBC report

Plane crashes killing two people
Two people have been killed in a plane crash in Gloucestershire.
The small private aircraft came down shortly after take-off, in a field half a mile from Kemble Airfield and burst into flames on Friday afternoon.

The emergency services were called to the scene near the village of Culkerton and a large area has been sealed off.

Air accident investigators have been brought in. No details have been released yet about the identity of the two people who died.

Gloucestershire Police said all three emergency services were called to the scene after people saw a light aircraft coming down.

Glen Moreman, events co-ordinator at Kemble Airfield, said the two-seater aircraft took off just after 1430 GMT.

"About half-a-mile from the end of the runway the aircraft was seen to suddenly loose height.

"It crashed into a field, burst into flames and a dense pall of smoke was seen to rise in the air." he said.

[Deano777]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/4383165.stm

Condolences to their respective families :(

Dean

[jayteeto]

Reported earlier in rumours and news, can anyone link the threads?

[Nullaman]

Grim news

Anyone know the type involved?

[Deano777]

I heard it was a 2 seater, cannot confirm what type :/

[soneraisam]

It was a Europa.

[Monocock]

Forgive me for being so blunt but why do these "Light aircraft down at ***" threads seem so sinister and gossipy?

I know they form part of our fraternity and that it can happen to any one of us at any time but I really do feel that sometimes it portrays too much literary rubbernecking for my liking.

Remember the TB10 at the pleasure park near Chichester? I read that thread and nearly threw my guts at the level of morbid fanatisism that was being displayed.

Any of us can spin in at any time and I'm afraid to say that any introductory threads about these subjects are unecessary and really piss me off.

OK, perhaps I'm going through an opinionated spell recently but can anyone here really tell me that these "deceased announcement" threads do anything for anyone??? If it's the cocktail party theory where the first to announce the gossip is "the winner" then please can I inform people that in this situation (where I know that friends of the deceased will read this) that specualtion really is not required.

Oh, and for all you amateur AAIB peeps, don't even think about it here like someone has done in a similar thread on this PF Forum....

[Cusco]

I'm with monocock on this one:

I suggest that, as has happened on another forum not a million miles from here that this thread is locked/pulled by mods.

Sure it's a tragedy for the families involved, but what do we contribute on these threads until the official report is out.

Safe flying

Cusco.

[Deano777]

Harsh Monocock

I find the fact that you think I posted this as a "cocktail party" quite sad and short sighted, I posted this for a reason, and that is because it was near me and quashed any complacency that crept in and to remind us all that our "hobby" kills people, (a fact of life is that we all become complacent).
If you check my original post you will see that it was nothing more than for information purposes only, I'm not trying to find out any more details, nor trying to even ascertain what happened.
This is my first post here for months, and now I can see why :rolleyes:

BRL / Keygrip

Close at your leisure fellas

Dean

[jayteeto]

Simple answer really, if you dont want to read this type of news (or rumour), then go elsewhere. Its not a competition to give bad news. Everytime we lost an aircraft or pilot in the RAF, the whole force wanted to know if it was one of their friends involved. It is the same here, people want to know....

[foxmoth]

Quite agree, people want to know - is it someone I know and/or is it an aircraft or type I fly, and this is not necessarilly for morbid reasons, People also want an indication if possible of what happened so they can avoid it themselves - a bit of wishful thinking maybe there, but you live in hope!
There is normally also a lot of sympathy going out for those more closely involved and certainly here my thoughts and condolences go out to the relatives.

[Whirlybird]

Way back in 1998, I found out about a fatal crash involving two people I knew at the airfield I flew from, when a friend phoned VERY early in the morning, having heard it on the news, to check that I hadn't been involved. It wasn't a nice way to start the day. I'd much rather have been informed on PPRuNe. I log on to this site mainly to keep up with information and news, no matter what it is.

[Scottishjockey]

Thoughts are with family and friends, best we wait and see rather than add rumour.

[capt.sparrow]

Its like a catch 22. If its morbid facination / rubbernecking and makes your stomach churn then why were you looking at the thread? As mentioned some of us would like to know if our colleages are still safe and flying and has nothing to do with what went wrong speculation. First i knew was when radar advised kemble closed UFN.

[bar shaker]

I read about this in the Telegraph at lunchtime. Very sad.

If the inclusion of such threads causes just a few pilots to fly as though the engine may stop, then such inclusion may save lives.

At this time of year, many people are flying for the first time after a winter lay off. Their aircraft have been layed off too.

Lets hope that this tragic news means that others will be extra vigilent when doing checks and be more expectant of an engine failure when climbing out or even just cruising around.

My condolences to the pilot and passenger's families.

[LD Max]

Without pre-empting any AAIB report - and also without making any assumptions as to airmanship, I have heard reports that the aircraft attempted to return to the airfield and spun in.

This is not to criticise the judgement of the PF in any way who, no doubt did everything he felt was appropriate to recover the situation. I sincerely regret that he was unsuccesful, and would also pass my condolences to the family - who I understand have tragically suffered a dual loss.

Despite drilling students on EFATO procedures and the mantra to "Maintain Flying Speed and land ahead", it seems to me that there is a general trend for decisions to be made under pressure which appear, on first sight, not to be aligned with established training.

Is there not a Human Factors issue here which warrants further study, or are the causes already well documented? If so, what, if anything, can be done about both initial and recurrent training programs to help overcome this type of problem?

[Zlin526]

I'm with Monocock here. I get a bit cheesed off with all the "condolences" etc etc from people who feel that they have got to say it, just to be seen to be doing something. I just hope that if I ever hit the deck, then it's in secret and not speculated to death on here.

However, it's a free country, so if people insist on it, then at least get the information right and stop speculating until the AAIB chaps have done their work, and I quote....

Without pre-empting any AAIB report - and also without making any assumptions as to airmanship, I have heard reports that the aircraft attempted to return to the airfield and spun in.

LD Max, you ARE Pre-empting and you ARE making assumptions just by writing it.

Report the facts, then wait to see what the cause was. Remember, that the gutter press reads this forum and it will be written verbatim in 'The Scum' on Monday if we are not careful.. :yuk:

[PPRuNe Towers]

Regarding mono's reservations - something long sorted our with civilian professional aviators on PPRuNe.

The site was conceived 10 years ago now with a basic precept - to reflect what we as pilots discuss in a bar and not studied, solo musings over official documents and reports. This thread precisely fits that role.

Such threads have always drawn comment from well respected contributors like mono and, in an exaggerated way, from the mil aviators here.

Here's a straight explanation why we continue to support these threads:

The simple fact is that behaviour only changes with the element of shock - could that have happened to me. The dry discourse months later within reports doesn't do that.

This isn't a magical revelation - it is simply human nature. Smoking, drinking, diet. En masse, none of us changes until something real, something traumatic touches our consciences and survival instinct as frail individuals.

The second reason is simply a result and amplification of the first: the very nature of the thread and it's timing means that often many potential avenues and causes are discussed. Efato, turn back and spin in as an example. Ultimately these are red herrings in the great scheme of things but the greatest value lies there. A few sane and realistic tangents on what might have happened hugely increases the facets of their flying that folks very seriously reflect on.

Thus more people become involved at a visceral, personal level and therein lies the greatest possibility of the maximum number of people to change behaviour, review procedures or rethink how they do things.

One thread like this, especially with 'tasteless' but current pictures, has ten times the immediacy and emotional impact of reading any number of even the best written 'ILAFFT' pieces let alone the formal reports.

These threads maximise the chances of promoting personal, positive change outside the formal training system and that's why they stay.

Regards to all,
Rob Lloyd

[Monocock]

So that told me....:ugh:

However, I still vehemently disagree with this as others clearly do. It offended one forum enough for them to lock the thread so at least I can rest assured my views are not solitary or unfounded.

If I ever "go in" can I request the cause of it is witheld until the AAIB result though?!! I'd hate for speculative facts about my demise to make it into a tabloid on the back of a rumour born on these sheets.

:ok:

[PPRuNe Towers]

Not telling you ( as in a taking a poke) at all.

Simple explanation of the rationale regarding our attitude to threads like this. Nobody has to like it, agree with us or even read the thread.

Danny and I have been around aviation for a while. It's thirty years as a pilot for me now and I've simply been to too many funerals.

Let's distance ourselves from something you and some others find objectionable and sidestep the emotions. Of my 30 years flying fifteen of them were also spent skydiving along with other PPRuNers like Javelin. It's a high turnover sport - you're considered reasonably experienced with an hour of freefall under your belt and can achieve skygod status in a couple of years.

Average time in the sport seems to be around 5 years for those who stick at it and here's the rub. Those of us who stay longer, the old salts, see the same accidents repeat themselves in cycles. Someone dies, a technical or training issue is dealt with and folks are much more aware.

A few years down the line the same essential element in the first fatality starts happening again - entire new population on the drop zone who've discounted or forgotten the training as ancient history or, as 'aces' themselves, they and their peers never had a problem.

Same types of investigations, same changes to training but it is the immediate period following the fatality, the first two or three days when the community of skydivers speculate, ruminate and make those private vows to look after themselves. They don't change anything when the report comes out - it's the system and not individuals that react then.

Like the experienced skydivers you (plural) generally are outside the formal training and qualification system now. It's entirely voluntary as to whether or not your skills and operational integrity increase or decline.

I still retain the absolute capability of killing myself and others after all this time and I'll continue to do my best to avoid it. These threads make me think - think very hard whether concerning my professional flying or farm stripping in my shared Jodel.

Danny has gone through the horror of stepping out of a twin turbo prop and the next crew in it dying along with their passengers following an instrument failure. You're welcome to ignore such threads, other forums we both follow and enjoy can lock them but as far as we are concerned in the Towers changing someone's behaviour in the imediate and potent emotional aftermath is our equivalent of carrying a donor card.

Regards to all,
Rob

[Nige321]

Mono

At the time you made your post yesterday, no one had 'speculated' anything... The BBC had reproted an accident, quite responsibly for a change - A couple of others had replied with nothing sinister and had spoken their condolences - I add my own here too...

Whats the big problem?

Nige

[Onan the Clumsy]

I didn't read Mono's post as a tirade against speculation so much as a comment that the continued condolences expressed become somewhat nauseating when you consider that most people have no idea who was in the a/c. I've seen posts where that was all people said and it feels very ...tabloid.

And not trying to pick an argument about skydiving accidents, because basically I agree with your suggestion that knowledge gets lost as the older generation move on, what I have seen though is accidents have evolved along with the equipment.

It used to be that we got a lot of gear malfunctions, but these tended to disappear as the gear got better. Then we got people sizzling in with brain lock, so they invented altitude alerters. Next came CRW wraps, until that branch of the sport got fully developed, then situational awareness problems once people started freestyle.

The current crop of fatalities appear to be seemingly benign collisions resulting from the new faster style of equipment and CFIT deaths from hook turns :ugh:

That's why the BPA decision to not publish an accident report in its magazine (It's been a long time since I've been active) was perhaps an oversite bordering on negligence.

[LD Max]

Zlin526: I'm sorry that you interpreted my post that way.

Firstly, I would assure you that my condolences are genuine. I have a family too and any incident like this - especially one so close to home - reminds me of my own mortality and the effect such a thing would have on my nearest and dearest.

My comment was clearly "without prejudice" to the results of any findings and was never stated as a fact. I can't even say with any certainty, that it was an EFATO. It could, perhaps, have been something to do with Flight controls or structural couldn't it?

I specifically mentioned EFATO and a turnback because at this early stage, that was the recollection of one eyewitness who was in proximity to the event and who happens to be a colleague of mine. My comment was, therefore, intended to expand the discussion outside of the immediate event. Specifically, to include what seems to be a recurring issue with EFATO and to promote discussion about the Human Factors which may lead to such an action.

This is not some morbid fascination, but a sincere desire to seek the council of other experienced pilots in this regard. In particular I have a friend who will be conducting a seminar on EFATO for instructor renewals shortly. Anything which could be learned - directly or indirectly - from your constructive input would be very welcome.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Gents, I've nothing to do with this accident, but I work with AAIB a great deal.

This sort of developing speculation I know they find VERY unhelpful in their investigations. Do the pros a favour and back out of this discussion.

G

[LD Max]

I see there's a more recent thread which is discussing the sort of thing I would like to explore: Why Fly the Centreline? (http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168646)

Anyone who would like to discuss EFATO as a topic in its own right, (as would I), may find that more appropriate to avoid offending the sensibilities of others.

[Monocock]

I am now thoroughly confused:bored: but would echo G the E's sentiments

[Nige321]

This sort of developing speculation I know they find VERY unhelpful in their investigations. Do the pros a favour and back out of this discussion.

G

What possible effect does the ramblings on PPRUNE have on an AAIB investigation???

N

[MikeGodsell]

Thanks Pprune Towers.

There but for the grace of God go I ....

We need to be reminded of that, and keep ourselves scared and sharp, and our aeroplanes fit to fly.
Only when I feel confident enough to fly with ME, would I even think of taking up someone else to share the joys of flying.

Right now I need to practice EFATOs!

MG

[jayteeto]

I'm with Nige321, what on earth could we say here that will affect an investigation. If you can back up with facts I will gladly keep my mouth shut. PPrune...... rumour network PPfacne..... fact network

[Genghis the Engineer]

(1) People may read it who are subsequently interviewed by AAIB, and thus their witness statements may be modified (from the original recollection) by somebody else's recollection of the event posted here, or by somebody's conjecture about it. This may not be deliberate, but can happen nonetheless.

(2) We really don't know if somebody has screwed up - and if so whom, it has been suggested by several people that this may have happened. Friends and relatives of the deceased may read these posts - that is deeply unhelpful, and can be extremely distressing.

(3) It is not unknown for friends / relatives / etc. to try taking legal action following an accident. This can be encouraged by ill informed people (which I'm afraid includes the majority of the legal profession - I can think of two lawyers I've ever come across well informed about aviation matters) reading speculation on the internet. This involvement of the legal profession in what should be a purely technical investigation can get in the way of evidence gathering, achieving witness statements, etc.

(4) I can think of a known case where public speculation - badly misinformed (I can speak with authority here, I was assisting AAIB with the investigation), on an internet bulletin board caused (a) an individual to resign from his position and later seek psychiatric help, (b) several flying schools lose considerable revenue following unfounded public concerns over the safety of aircraft that they were using.

(5) I have known several investigations where the eventual conclusions were substantially different to what was originally apparent. Strangely however, initial "rumours" stick - not good.


I don't work for AAIB, and have not seen any official statement from them, but that's my private opinion from assisting with (the investigation of) aircraft accidents by them and other agenceis over about a 12 year period.

If anybody has anything to say about the accident, AAIB's phone number is 01252-510300, and I strongly recommend that they phone AAIB and ask to speak to the responsible inspector - not post any information or conjecture in any public forum.


When AAIB have published a report, that in my opinion is the time for public discussion - and I'll join in with everybody else. Like everybody else, I have the deepest sympathy for anybody who knew or was related to the deceased, but those people in my opinion are best served by the rest of us getting out of the way and allowing an unhindered professional investigation.

G

[Scottishjockey]

We may be private pilots and some may have aspirations to take this further. Please can we act more like professionals, Genghis thanks for the sensible words.

If anyone one has a positive comment to make why not invest your next 2 hours flying with an instructor try a fan stop, nail a pfl even bash out on a 150 and try spinning. Do a xcountry not tried before get him to set a divert, go under the hood for 15 minutes, try a PAR. Get an IMC or Night rating.

I'm no bore, but why add rumour to disaster because that is what it is, try adding rumour to engine & airframes or problems you experience at an airfield or flying school. Perhaps a problem with a maintenance facility?

Sorry guys but I think the real pilots look listen and add something constructive!

Scot Jock

[Deano777]

To be honest

I think people should read every post again, nobody has speculated on the actual cause of THIS accident, the tone of this thread has hardly been about WHY it happened, but more along the lines of make sure you are up to speed on your safety drills & procedures.
Take a chill pill chaps & chappettes.

Happy landings

D.

[jayteeto]

People may read this and change their statements???? Why????
I do agree about naming names and wild speculation, but any discussion about possible causes that makes other people think "what would I have done in that situation" has to be a benefit. I also agree that you should not criticise a school unless it is from personal experience. If someone is out of order, that is what moderators are for. When a plane goes in, people in crewrooms will speculate....fact. This is exactly the same. Consider what you post, but if you don't want to read it, you don't have to.....

[n5296s]

well, my 2p...

As a lowish-mid-time pilot (750 hrs) I've learned a heck of a lot from usenet, pprune etc, including from much more experienced pilots writing about incidents. Of course the truly uninformed speculaton ("well, he must have tried to do xxx and screwed it up by doing yyy") is just a waste of bits and pixels. But the discussion about the SR22 Tahoe crash, for example, was (mostly) very informed and illuminating (and probably stopped me spending $25K on deice for my plane).

Personally I find all the knee-jerk "condolences" a bit fatiguing - I assume that we all stop and have a think and a pause for the dead and the surviving after every incident, and I don't particularly feel the need to tell people or be told. But there again, before anyone else says it, if you don't like it, don't read it.

In fact when I see an incident outside the aviation media, I do look at pprune, usenet, etc to see if there is any more factual information about what happened. It's not voyeurism, it's trying to be a better, safer, more informed pilot.

n5296S

[Zlin526]

nobody has speculated on the actual cause of THIS accident,

I think they have - LD Max wrote:

Without pre-empting any AAIB report - and also without making any assumptions as to airmanship, I have heard reports that the aircraft attempted to return to the airfield and spun in.

Hearing reports from ' a mate' may not tell the whole story, and witnesses are notorious for telling investigators what they thought they wanted to see...

and I'm with n5269s - 'Knee jerk condolences' from those who feel they have got to say something mean nothing (or not to me anyway!) If it's from people I know, then fine, but then they'd say them face to face to my wife and family:(

[bar shaker]

Zlin

Do you think people should carry on turning back, with no hope of surviving, for the next 18 months, until the AAIB confirm that he did in fact do just that and spun in?

If, this weekend, someone goes for the ploughed field, rips the wheels off, but survives, then the talk of not turning back will have been worthwhile.

[Genghis the Engineer]

There are years and years of reports out there, covering numerous accidents from as many causes - including a fair number of turnbacks. Nobody needs the report on the latest accident to give you information about the strengths and weaknesses of that particular manoeuvre (or most others), just the nouse to go and read some old accident reports.

G

[Chequeredflag]

Rightly or wrongly, I think it's only natural for posters on this forum to almost feel "involved" in any incident where people are hurt (or worse) whilst engaged in an activity we all love. It may be felt to be morbid in some quarters, but I'm sure when something like this happens, we all can associate ourselves with the pain others are suffering. This may lead some of us sending their condolences to the family concerned - I'm sure that this is a heartfelt desire to say how sorry they are. None of their business really, but it seems to me a natural thing to want to do.

As for whether aviation accidents should be discussed, or speculated about on this forum, then again I think it is natural that this will happen.

One of my other passions is sailing, and I have a boat in a marina on the South Coast, which I use for passages across the Channel, and to the South west. Sadly, in boating, as in aviation, there will be fatalities. I contribute to a YBM sailing Forum, a very busy site indeed, where the moderators encourage forumites to treat it as a kind of yacht club bar.

Now, "yacht club members" will always discuss and speculate as to the cause of accidents, such as the incident where a 45' yacht was sunk mid Channel, in fog, following a collision with a 70,000 ton containership. Luckily the crew somehow survived, but the website was full of speculative comment. I don't believe this was in any way malicious, but purely resulting from a "thank God it wasn't me, and how can I avoid it personally" point of view.

The MAIB report recently published the results of their investigations, and found that whilst the brand new yacht had state of the art radar with an anti-collision facility, the experienced skipper did not know how to operate it properly. Now, I have the exact same kit on my boat, and whilst I thought I knew it inside out, a thorough re-read of the (inch thick) manual made me realise I was not actually up to speed. I am now!

I do believe it's only natural for this forum to discuss such accidents, and we do so because we can probably all imagine, in our worst nightmares, it happening to us (God forbid). It's not about ghoulish fascination, but a deeply felt association with, and sympathy for the plight of those involved.

I personally don't think that any discussion such as that found here would interfere with an official investigation, but do acknowledge the arguments put forward by Genkis. From a personal perspective, I certainly learned from reading the official MAIB report about the yacht concerned, which is why I also read the accident reports on the AAIB website to see what I can learn from others misfortune - it's a selfish, self preservation thing, nothing more than that.

[Deano777]

Originally posted by Zlin526
I think they have - LD Max wrote:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Without pre-empting any AAIB report - and also without making any assumptions as to airmanship, I have heard reports that the aircraft attempted to return to the airfield and spun in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trying not to be pedantic here but he didnt speculate, he posted what he was told, anyway out of 40 odd posts we have 1 person posting what he was told and not assuming himself what the actual cause was.
Anyway enough of that, well put Chequeredflag

[OneMileHigh]

I think some of the contributors to this thread have lost the thread a bit!! Perhaps that is to be expected as we all react differently to a tragedy, and let's not forget that this was a tragedy.

To complain about others offering their condolences seems to me unreasonable beyond belief: Are all the thousands of people who left flowers for Princess Diana wrong, or the people who feel obliged to sign books of condolences?? No. Virtually all the people who read and contribute to this forum are pilots, aircrew or work within the aviation world, and a tragedy such as this will always result in a shared grief and an emotional outpouring. We feel involved because we share the same passion. So, for those that felt obliged to offer condolences, and those that still wish to, fine. It is Human nature and we shouldn't knock it, after all it's a free world still.

As to the speculation, we should be careful. Where life has been lost it hits us all hard, and naturally people will wonder upon the causes of any accident like this. Eventually however the causes will be established and published, and from the published facts the lessons can be learned, but as G the E has already stated: Thousands of accident reports have been compiled since aviation began. All the lessons that can be learned from accident reports exist already, but the recency of any accident impacts harder on us. We are more familiar with the aircraft type, or the accident location etc. It is a form of morbid curiosity, but again, it is Human nature, and we all have a morbidly curious side, whether we like to admit it or not.

To all I wish a continued and happy flying future.

[bar shaker]

OMH

You are quite right.

Some people wet the bed when others recount eye witness reports of accidents. We can, as some have suggested, wait for the AAIB report, but it will be a year and the shock of a fellow pilot (and his daughter) losing their lives will be lost.

Lets learn from what we know (hearsay or otherwise) and fly safe this weekend.

[Banjo]

If you have ever driven past an accident on the road and not looked at it at all (even a slight glance to see what you can see) then by all means have a pop at those that do discuss accidents on these threads.

I have to say though that the discussion does promote people to think more about safety and in the wider sense not just the specifics of one individual event.

Oh and lets be honest pretty much all of us have had a glance when passing the road accident, its human nature. So really who is worse us discussing it here in words in the hope of preventing further incidents or others trying to get a glimpse of the smashed wreckage/people by the roadside to satisfy there morbid curiousity.

[coopervane]

I think everyone who is involved in aviation in one form or another has their attention commanded when an aircraft crashes.

For me it is a combination of the following:-

Do I know the individual(s) involved. Aviation is a small community and there is always the possibility.

Where, when and how? Accident investigation takes time so even the most well meaning aviators tend to speculate even if it is in their own head.

Could this have been me? Would I have done something similar in the given situation?

I can see nothing wrong with a PPRUNE forum opened to attract attention to a downed aircraft. If something is learned from the postings then they have all been worth while.

The only thing I have to add is never be quick to judge. None of us are infalable. Remember, no one other than the people on board know the full story. There may have been factors that may never come to light.

And finally, may I send my deepest condolences to all concerned.

Coop & Bear

[surely not]

so many posts, yet no one has said what type of a/c it was.

I don't see the harm in posting about the accidents/incidents. I generally have a look to see if it might be anyone I know or an aircraft I have seen or flown in. Not being a techie sort of person I wouldn't speculate as to causes, and having seen how wildly inaccurate some posts have been about things I have known about first hand, I rarely take anything on here as gospel!!

I think it goes without saying that we probably feel sorrow for the family etc............... so I don't feel the need to say anything.

Anyway....................... what was the a/c type?

[bar shaker]

It was a Europa.