Flight Acadamy Scotland [Archive]

flyingnumpty

1st Mar 2005, 12:37

I'm hoping to start my ppl this spring and have been looking around at where I can do my training. I stay in Edinburgh but have been told that landing fees at edinburgh airport are very high. I found Flight Acadamy Scotland on the internet who are offering free landings, and have been over to Cumbernauld to have a look around.

I have to admit that a few alarm bells started ringing when I walked in the door. Other posts I have read on pprune make out that there is no money to be made in light aviation yet they have clearly invested alot of cash in their operation. If i'm going to part with several thousands of pounds to do my ppl i need to be confident that their not going to go bust and leave me with nothing. The other thing that worried me was their instructors . Looking at their website, none of them seems to have much experience and two of the three instructors got their ppls in the US - this is hardly a good advertisement for training in the UK!

If i'm going to go to the expense of learning to fluy, I want to be taught well. I want to go on to do a commercial licence, but have been told that this can be very hard work if you were not taught well in the first place.

Has anyone any experience of Flight acadamy Scotland? should I be cautious about training with them?

APRIANA

1st Mar 2005, 12:47

I've not had any experience with them but I think they are a fairly young school, so they may not have had many students yet. Few students means little available feedback.

I'm sure that they are opening two other schools in Scotland - possibly Edinburgh and Inverness.

How much are you looking to spend?

flyingnumpty

1st Mar 2005, 12:57

I've been told that somewhere around £5000 is about right, particularyly allowing for the Scottish weather disrupting training. I'm also concerned about paying up front. I've just had a look on the internet for other flying schools in central scotland and have found that I could pay £100 per hour (including instructor) elsewhere rather than coughing up for it all in one go. £8 per landing at Prestwick doesn't seem too bad and there instructors seem to have heaps of experience (airlines, RAF etc).

The flight acadamy has started looking less attractive.

Blinkz

1st Mar 2005, 13:01

Numpty I'm just in the process of doing my PPL at Edinburgh Flying Club and so will be happy to answer any questions. I started my PPL at the beginning of October last year and now have 47hrs TT and am just about ready for my skills test.

Edinburgh is a brilliant place to fly from. You get the expereince of operating from a busy airport, with loads of jets coming and going, this is a great RT confidence booster. You also get the experience of training from the smaller airfields as all circuit work is done at either fife or cumbernauld.

Yes you are right learning at Edinburgh will not be the cheapest option, but I looked at the pros and cons and decided that edinburgh was the best overall option. Its close (only a 15min drive from me, I live right in the centre of the city) so I can just pop out when the weathers good.

They are the friendliest bunch of guys you'll ever meet and I've enjoyed flying with them and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to anyone.

-EDIT- Flight acadamy aren't coming to EDI as far as I know, the BAA have limited the airport to just one school, which is EFC ;) I think there other base is going to be Aberdeen.

APRIANA

1st Mar 2005, 13:04

Oh sorry, I did not realise they were looking for money upfront. I'd be weary, why are opening 3 clubs and asking for money upfront????

I fly from GFC it's a great club £98 per hour for the aircraft and £20 for the instructor, however landings are £19 for your first landing and £17 for the others (as long as it's in the same sortie)

I've flown down to Prestwick and they seem like a good outfit. I'll be going there for my CPL, ME/IR.

P.S. I paid around £8000 in total over 1 year.

Good Luck.

Genghis the Engineer

1st Mar 2005, 13:10

Yes - paying up front, without any clear guarantee (such as an independent escrow account) is dangerous and unreasonable - don't go there.

Whilst may of us, myself included, regularly advise against it for new pilots, given the Scottish weather had you considered doing a JAA PPL in the US (California or Florida usually) and then paying another £500-£1000 learning how to fly in British (Scottish!) airspace and weather when you get back (at wherever you are likely to base your private flying). It might well be cheaper and quicker.

G

Not flown at any Scottish school, so entirely neutral. But have flown around Scotland a lot, so know you'll not regret it in the long run.

Genghis the Engineer

1st Mar 2005, 13:21

I'm not an instructor myself, but I've at-least one good friend who took a couple of goes before passing, and I'd be happy to recommend them to anybody as an instructor.

The fact is, it's a tough test, and he/she reached a pass standard before being let loose on students. I don't think personally that how long that took matters.

G

APRIANA

1st Mar 2005, 13:24

I would not worry about the instructor, if he/she has now passed then s/he's fine - as long as s/he keeps high standards. It may well have been rumours from jealous staff from another school trying to steer you their way.

Edinburgh would be good for you, less travel = less stress. Closer to your home = you can get there at the drop of a hat.

Cumbernauld is only a few minutes away from Edinburgh and the zone entry/exit procedure will be good pratice for you.

I have no doubt that you could complete the PPL in say two months. If you complete all the PPL exams and can fly frequently then you'll be fine.

Sassenach

1st Mar 2005, 13:31

Flyingnumpty - I would avoid Flight Academy Scotland if I were you. There are plenty of traditional clubs in Central Scotland that have a proven record of good instruction. And paying for your training as you go along means that you won't loose out if they go bust.

I don't know about Edinburgh Flying Club so couldn't advise, but there are people from Edinburgh at the Prestwick Flying Club who are happy to make the trip. It's a members' club with no one paying any salaries or taking a profit, so you'll not find cheaper flying rates anywhere else. Nice aircraft too, including a Bolkow Junior, Beagle Pup and Chipmunk (all available for ab initio instruction).

Blinkz

1st Mar 2005, 13:36

2 months for a PPL in scotland is pretty unlikely. I've been doing my PPL full time since october and have only just reached test standard, and I had 50hrs gliding expereince to start with too.

It does depend on what your final aim is. I am going commercial after my PPL and so I liked the idea of flying from an international airport as it is great experience for flying around busy airspace. In total I think I'm going to have spent around £6000 for my PPL. Numpty feel free to PM me if you want to have a chat about Edinburgh flying club. I've got MSN too if you wanna chat on that.

APRIANA

1st Mar 2005, 13:52

Blinkz, You did well to get to where you are, considering that you started on October. Cra$$y weather and taxiways that are not de-iced

:{

When I was learning I had really good weather Feb/March '03 and I could easily have completed the 45 hours but as usual something came up - my job changed and I ended working during the day!

Where abouts are you going for the commercial training?

Sassenach

1st Mar 2005, 14:01

I have to agree with Blinkz about two months being a little ambitious. I got my PPL at Prestwick in four months, but that was over the summer months.

Flyingnumpy - learning to fly at a larger airport does help you develop confidence and experience of operating in the type of environment you'll find when you go commerical. Your R/T in paticular will be of a higher standard. ATC will treat you much better and are more likely to grant your requests if you come across professionally on the radio.

Another comment about Cumbernauld. I've always been concerned about its suitability for teaching circuits. In the event of an engine failure after take-off, there's just nowhere to go where you'll have much of a chance of landing safely. The runway is also very narrow, and whilst this forces you to keep to the centreline, it doesn't offer students any room for error when flying in strong crosswinds. From memory, there are also local noise restrictions in the circuit, which may limit the type of circuits that you can fly.

Regarding the instructor at FAS, I agree that you shouldn't necessarily judge him/her by his/her having failed the FI test a couple of times. Your comment about two of their instructors training in America personally causes me more concern, although I know that this is a very emotive subject that is best avoided on Pprune!

Hansard

1st Mar 2005, 15:15

flyingnumpty

Forgive me for saying this if it's not true, but your posts seem suspicious to me. Sound as though they've been made "to elicit certain reactions" - to quote the footnote on every page of PPRuNe.

For the record, I have no connection with Scotland, FAS or any other school

flyingnumpty

1st Mar 2005, 15:36

I've been called a few things, but never suspicious! Theres no hidden agenda in my postings - I just want to make the right decision before I spend my savings. Sorry if anything i've said makes anyone uncomfortable.

Blinkz

1st Mar 2005, 16:54

Like has been said there are alot of schools in the area, all with pros and cons. You just have to decide exactly what you want from your training and see what suits you best.

Oh and the main reason we don't do circuits are EGPH is that we're not allowed to. But even if we were your right, I'd rather pay the cheaper ones at fife :ok:

GusHoneybun

1st Mar 2005, 19:14

Couple of points that I can't help but make. Mainly cause I fancy stirring things up a bit.

First let me point out that this is not a dig at any school or FTO. Scotlands wx is as good or bad as anywhere else you'll might go. What did annoy me was the attitude of certain instructors with regard to what weather they might get off their arses and do some work. A PPL student should have been instructor accompanied into marginal weather on more than one occasion to give them confidence to tackle any bad weather they may encounter post PPL. By the time you have your shiny new licence, you must have an understanding of your own personal limits, be that cloudbase, crosswinds, vis whatever. This is doubly important if your banging round the Scotland where options are more limited compared to south of the border.
5 months for a full time PPL seems a tad on the steep side. I have seen someone through a full time PPL in 3 weeks, mid January, also in the wilds of Scotland. I could also give you a name of a fellow instructor who had one of his students pass in 2 weeks (although he had his exams already bagged and it was july) 0 to PPL. Although he may post on here soon as he is not know for being a quiet little wall flower. Scotland does not equal Bad Wx.

BTW, not suprised people fail the FI test in that part of the world. The guy who conducts the test is known for a more draconian approach. Mind you, when he passes you, you've definately earned the ticks in the boxes and to get the rating.

deltamike02

1st Mar 2005, 20:20

Ahhh, the old 'which flying school is best' thread. There is nothing like it to stir up a hornets nest of peoples comments, some honest and genuine and some just out to have a dig at their closest competitor.

Not wanting to become embroiled in the usual slagging match that this will inevitably turn into, I would offer you the following advice before choosing your school.

For each good, honest opinion of a flying school you will get on this forum, you are likely to get twice as much bad press about them. You should not make you decision based entirely on what you read here. It is after all a 'rumour network'.

I was in the same position as you last year and whilst I read all the usual threads on PPRUNE, nothing quite beats visiting the schools you are thinking about and if necessary having a trial lesson.

There are a lot of flying schools to choose from in our area and I am sure they all have some good and some bad points. A new flying school is bound to attract a barrage of bad comments as worried competitors strive to protect their market place. At the end of the day, choose which one offers you what YOU are looking for.

You comment that Flight Academy Scotland offers pay up-front packages. So do all schools. It doesn't mean you have to take that option and it certainly doesn't mean that the schools have financial problems just because they offer that option.

As far as I am concerned, good luck to Flight Academy Scotland, and indeed any new organisation that starts up. The more flying schools, the more choice and value for us the 'flying' public (hopefully!). If somebody is willing to invest in the GA industry way that FAS are then great! It can only be a good thing.

Good luck with your decision.

wbryce

1st Mar 2005, 20:43

hello,

If your popping into cumbernauld, look at all 3 schools. I ended up doing my training with Leading Edge (next door to FAS and across the hall from CFS), no complaints from me. Done around 35hrs in 3 months, could have done more if i had the money!!! :}

Let us know what you choose and how you get on in the future, if you choose Cumbernauld perhaps I will see you around in the near future!

will

IO540

2nd Mar 2005, 18:20

I haven't read the whole thread but I think there is a significant inverse correlation between schools calling themselves "Academy" and how long it is before they vanish, with the deposits of any student careless enough to pay for training up front :O

silverknapper

2nd Mar 2005, 19:25

Blinkz

If you have been at a flying school every day since October you should have a PPL by now unless you're struggling. I have seen a guy recently do it in 4 weeks, including bad weather days. Scotland can be a bugger, especially at this time of year. However there are also fantastic days where it's all CAVOK. Stable highs set in and you can get 4 or 5 cracking days.
Have heard great things about Prestwick also, and I did a CPL at Tayside and rate them highly, although they are very expensive. I would add Highland Flying School at Inverness to the list. It is a bit from Edinburgh, but not that much longer than Prestwick. But the weather is generally better, especially now. And if you're going to stay for a few days at a time It's a nice place to be. They are pretty good value also. Jaa PPL for £4k. Not sure what a NPPL is. And flying in the Highlands is awesome.

Cheers

SK

Blinkz

2nd Mar 2005, 23:01

I don't think 50hrs for a PPL is struggling. I've not been in any particular rush, plus I had a month of over xmas. I just been enjoying my training, not trying to get it done as fast as possible.

Speed Twelve

4th Mar 2005, 02:42

I've worked at a few flying schools and airfields in Scotland and will give a couple of pieces of unbiased advice.

Firstly, I'll reinforce what has been said about paying up front for flying training. Don't. Too many schools have gone down the toilet with little or no warning, taking your cash with them. I know, I worked for one...

Also, although EDI is great for learning punchy RT and mixing it with the big boys, don't underestimate the extra cash you'll spend transiting to Glenrothes to do circuit trips. There's no substitute for training at an airfield into whose own circuit you can launch for training when the weather would otherwise preclude any flying away from the airfield. I worked at EDI in my first instructing job and had to detach to Cumbernauld for circuits, adding at least 30 mins of transit time to the student's bill for each trip.

On the other hand, I have worked for a couple of schools at Cumbernauld, and students benefit from no delays, uncontrolled airspace, and the reponsibility and decision-making that comes with flying in an air-ground radio environment. In order to expose students to controlled airspace and wake-vortex separation I took them to Prestwick so that they could mix it with 747s.

I don't agree with the narrow-runway at Cumbernauld comment. If the student can hack landing safely on a narrow runway then they will be a better pilot. Same goes for the 18m wide runway at Glenrothes. It doesn't affect the crosswind limit for the student or the aeroplane.

As regards training progress, I completed an RAF flying scholarship and PPL at Dundee in March in a total of 4 weeks (a long time ago...). That included 9 non-flying days due to weather. I did fly 5 trips in one day sometimes; started on Monday, went solo on Saturday! Don't recommend it for fun ppl training though...

ST

warrioronesixtyone

29th Apr 2005, 17:52

Firstly this is NOT a dig at FAS, but some information.

Recent news article in Daily Mail details how FAS set up a bogus Official Cumbernauld Airfield Web Page and following some testing, gave their own school 10/10 and the other schools 2/10. FAS was forced to admit that the web-site was theirs and NOT Cumbernauld's. Some physical stuff between other school owners too I've heard.

FAS has bought Inverness Flying School - no aircraft or instructors, although they do advertise rotary wing training. Not being a whirly bird myself, I don't know if they have helo's or instructors at Inverness.

Trying to buy Aberdeen Flying School - their web site states they have already bought it, but a friend of mine went into the school recently and asked for one of their £75 gift vouchers - Aberdeen didn't know anything about it!

That's what I understand - but lets not take my word for it, and ask FAS to comment themselves..... If anyone from FAS manages to read this, and in order to provide a balanced discussion, please feel free to contribute to this thread.

Cactus99

29th Apr 2005, 19:00

Warrior,

Just a couple of points:

FAS have not bought Inverness flying school, they have set up a flying base there but as yet have not done any flights. They bought Highland Helicopters and currently own one R22 which they fly out of there with a heli instructor. They have as far as Iam led to believe there are a couple of Katana's up there but no instructors to fly them!!

There is another thread on 'Professional Pilot Training' with regards to the Daily Mail article. They have requested a reply from someone within FAS, but as yet, none have been forthcoming.

I gather that all staff from FAS have been told to keep away from this site and not to post any comments/ replies etc.

The saga continues......:rolleyes:

Southern Scottie

29th Apr 2005, 19:23

Cumbernauld is a good location to learn flying from scratch. You are in fairly unrestricted airspace but can fly into the Edinburgh or Glasgow zones with your instructor and gradually build your confidence in more complex environments.

As for flying clubs, there is an established school at Cumbernauld - upstairs beside the coffee shop - which my spies tell me is above average. Run by a chap called Ted. I visited it two weeks ago and was quite impressed.

Hope this helps.:ok:

rednine

30th Apr 2005, 11:22

Does anybody have any information on other flying clubs that Flight Academy Scotland are planning to take over?

sk8erboi

30th Apr 2005, 16:42

I gather that all staff from FAS have been told to keep away from this site and not to post any comments/ replies etc.
That's a laugh. Only because everytime they open their mouths they manage to alienate someone else. That includes the owner.
Who knows where they'll try next. They aren't proving popular. As said above they haven't turned a prop at INV yet. Apparently the guys at Aberdeen aren't welcoming them with open arms either. Hard to see where next though. Would think Prestwick and Tayside are out of their league. Not much left.
Incidentally has their twin been fixed yet?

mad_jock

30th Apr 2005, 17:36

There are no Katana's in INV there was one plane which never moved until it disappeared.

Staying completely away from the Schools at various places I will make a few comments about the WX in scotland based on 2 years VFR flying up here.

Inverness

Moray Firth has a micro climate which lends its self to good VFR training 15-20 knot winds are not uncommon but it never seemed to bother the students as they didn't know any different and it wasn't uncommon to send students solo in those conditions. Good viz (20k-45k) is the norm you can see Wick from the circuit on CAVOK days.

Perth

Can be good but suffered from low cloud and ****e viz at times microlights can be a right pain in the arse. And weekends in the summer you need your wits about you flying anywhere near the circuit.

Dundee

Suffers from sea fog certain times of year and low cloud.

Fife

Similar to Dundee apart from its in Fife and a bit higher and can get effects coming in from the Forth.

Aberdeen

Can be very windy and sea fog and low cloud are common.

Glasgow

Can't comment never had a big enough wallet to land there.

Edi.

Similar to all the East coast airfields low cloud, sea fog and strong winds which can last for days.

Wick

Can be bloody horrible strong winds low clouds. When it nice it very nice but when its horrible its very bad. Only advantage is that most of the wx only lasts a day or 2 then it changes again.

Prestwick

Similar to the Moray Firth local micro climate can allow you to fly when everywhere else in the region is closed for VFR training.

Cum

WX similar to Perth but with worse viz. Nothing wrong with the runway size or shape.

If your wanting to do a intensive PPL, Inverness is proberly your best bet (July and August is best). All the exams studied for, 3 weeks is do able.

And remember there is nothing stopping you chopping and changing schools. ie up to circuit level in one school while studying for the exams then changing to complete the circuit and x-country lessons. What ever the school says training records are transferable. I have had several "transfers" when getting the records has been some what of a trial, but after the threat of the CAA it all sorted its self out. But after seeing the student records I could see why they didn't want another school looking at them.

MJ

rednine

1st May 2005, 06:44

As I understand the deal is done and Aberdeen is now run by FAS, as well as the others they own! Guess we will have to wait and see what improvements this brings

rednine

1st May 2005, 10:48

This will be an interesting one then! At 16 pounds you say for a landing ,then the economics just dont work out do they? If the fee increases to 20 pounds then impossible to sustain an operation if those costs have to be absorbed by FAS (unless the costs go up). Presumably the current owners are not selling because the school is doing well!!! Interesting times ahead and could this signal the beginning of the end for PPL training in Aberdeen if they fail with this venture. In the current situation, I guess that not many prople would be queing up to buy a flying school!

rednine

1st May 2005, 11:19

I think that you are right - Aberdeen is going to have problems and the fact that landing fees are going up to £20 is a non-sense. So, for a series of 5 touch and go's the student will pay an extra 80 pounds - almost doubles the cost of the lesson!!! Who can afford that??

So, if you then put on top of that the amount of time that in a lesson you spend orbiting to get back to base that is also unattractive in terms of cost. I am told by friends who have learned to fly in Aberdeen that 15 minutes may be spent orbiting whilst commercial traffic comes in - extra costs+++.

If you look at the runway configuaration in Aberdeen, its north-south and is right across the direction of the prevailing winds - limits the opportunity for flying. On top of that Aberdeen is constantly under the haar isn't it? Who on earth would think that they could make a comercial success out of this package?

The answer - come to Dundee or Perth to avoid all of these things?

rednine

1st May 2005, 11:42

I guess that you are right! It will be a shame to see it go downhill, if that happens. Lets give them a chance but it seems from all the correspondence that the omens are not the best!

Lets see!!

DB6

1st May 2005, 16:22

Another 2p's worth:
1) DO NOT pay upfront for a PPL - it's not necessary.
2) Tayside don't operate from Perth anymore (since last week). You can find out more about that on the Scottish Aero Club website.
3) There are a few clubs to choose from - I personally would use the closest one unless there's a good reason not to, as lessons WILL be cancelled, delayed, whatever and it's a pain if you've just driven 2 hours to get there.
4) I can vouch for Tayside but I am biased as I worked there and still do the odd bit now and then. What I will say is they're getting some nice aircraft which will be a bit more fun than the current ones :ok: .
5) Inverness does look very nice if you want to do an intensive course.

silverknapper

1st May 2005, 18:16

I agree with DB6, Tayside are a good outfit. The only thing I fault them on is price. They are expensive. Personally I think £120/hour for a 152 is ridiculous. I know that Tayflite are cheaper, just not sure how much. Will be interesting to watch what happens there. Perth is much better for training than Dundee, and if it is now cheaper perhaps Tayside will have some stiff competition.
I rate Highland flying school very highly. As said before the weather is good, pricing is very good and Inverness is a cracking airport/area to fly in.

rednine

2nd May 2005, 07:40

I guess that the difficulty from Aberdeen is the 2 hour drive to Inverness or the 1.5 hours to Dundee or Perth? However, there could be an opportunity for these schools to undercut FAS in Aberdeen and take any students down south or North-West!! For reasons mentined earlier this might actually be a better option due to weather and commercial pressures.

Bit of competition might also bring down the prices for all concerned! Have FAS indicated the prices that they are going to charge in Aberdeen yet?

mad_jock

2nd May 2005, 10:38

Getting the knife into FAS isn't really helping Flynumpty decide which school to get his PPL at.

All the schools will get the job done.

I haven't heard much about the EDI school and no news is good news in flight training as far as i can tell.

If your worried about cost of landing fees maybe EDI isn't for you.

Tayside is quite regimented due to the RAF cadets with pre flight briefs all pre made on overheads safety question for the day etc. Which I quite liked as an instructor. It does cost a bit more than others but then again you get free landings fees at Fife, Dundee and Perth which would proberly off set the cost somewhat. And if you decide to go down that route and later on to do commercial/FI with them its not uncommon to be taken on as an instructor.

If you are planning to do it over weekends, I would go and visit them in Fife and see if you get on with the instructors. Euan if he is still there has a very good reputation. If you want to do it intensively a week at a time or in 3 weeks go to Inverness. The cost for additional travel and hotels will all work itself out to be about the same. The advantage with Inverness is the weather, the local area and the xcountry qualifier INV-WICK-KIRKWALL-INV will be very hard to beat anywhere for pure enjoyment of flying x-country.

MJ

rednine

2nd May 2005, 12:50

I guess what would be very nice for anyone wanting to do a PPL would be a table of the costs afor the different schnools nd what can be anticipated in terms of overall costs. For example, those schools that don't include landing fees, those that do, those that include test fees, books, course for radiotelephony - or do not, etc etc

For a beginner trying to get their heads around all this is difficult and can make a significant difference to the final costs!

How about some keen individual making a table like this and making it available on this site? Would be very useful for all those interested in learning to fly. Of course there are things other than costs but this is the real world and its often a limiting factor in the ability of someone to learn to fly.

Another thought, and to be provocative (!), the cost of learning to fly at one of the schools in the USA could be given as well - probably about 50% of the cost here and that is including accomodation for a three week intensive course top qulaify for a JAA PPL? Last time I looked at some of these websites the whole cost was less than 3,000 pounds - now, there is a thought!!

Say again s l o w l y

2nd May 2005, 13:42

I'm afraid Euan is not at Tayside any more, he's teaching at JEFT's now. Suits him far more I would think!!

As for a table of costs, at the end of the day it is all very subjective. Whilst it can be an influencing factor it is more important that you visit a few schools and see where you feel most comfortable. This is more important than saving a couple of quid an hour, since if you end up flying a few hours more at one school, then the difference can be wiped out very quickly.

Training in the U.S is generally cheaper, but that doesn't include the extra costs you'll incur when you arrive back in the U.K or Europe.

I would always recommend that if you are going to fly in a certain environment, you should train in it. Skimping on a bit of cost at the beginning may cost you far more at a later stage.

rednine

2nd May 2005, 13:57

Well sorry about this but I must disagree with you here. Lets be honest, the costs in the US are 50% of those here. Having trained in both the UK and USA I would recommend anyone to train in the USA!

By all means take a few extra lessons here to make sure that you are happy with the environment but remember that we should be flying in good weather - as PPLs, we are doing this for pleasure.

As regards costs, well 3,000 pounds is a lot of costs savings and more than pays for a few extra lessons when you return here to make sure you are up to speed.

QantasEagle

2nd May 2005, 15:33

Rednine

thanks for that prompt and I think that this is an important issue - I have checked costs across Scotland and they vary hugely!

In fact there is such a huge variation that I will start another foreum about Actual Costs to learn to fly, because I think that this is so important - just wait until you see the variation in costs across one small county (sorry country!)

Say again s l o w l y

2nd May 2005, 23:29

Whilst this thread isn't about the usual US Vs. UK training debate, I must make the point that as someone who also did alot of training abroad and as a CFI in the UK, I think that the comment:
By all means take a few extra lessons here to make sure that you are happy with the environment but remember that we should be flying in good weather - as PPLs, we are doing this for pleasure.
Does worry me somewhat. Whilst I would never advocate anyone going up in conditions that they were uncomfortable in, there is more to the flying 'environment' than weather.

RT procedures, airspace, mountains (not many in Florida), icing conditions, over head joins, navigation, MATZ's etc....... are all different if you do your training abroad. Reading about them in the books is one thing, but actually operating is a different thing, especially for a low-hour (minimum hours usually) pilot.

The weather in the UK can change incredibly rapidly and many people get caught out by it every year. A few lessons cannot adaquetely prepare you for this. If you expect to only fly in good conditions and don't prepare for other eventualities, then you may find yourself in trouble at some point. This is especially true for those of us north of the border.

Flying is an expensive sport, but again I would suggest people look for quality in their training, rather than focus purely on cost. Unfortunately it's very difficult to make up a database that shows competance, but a comparison can be very useful especially if there are multiple schools, the final cost is often seemingly an irrelevance in reality and rather than looking at the price over all, think more about how much it's likely to cost you each month, bearing in mind that the less often you fly, the more hours it will take you.

After you finish your skills test, you will still have to pay for your flying at a (not very) reduced rate anyway, so why is there always a mad rush to try and get the ticket? Spending a bit longer with a good instructor will make you a far better pilot than someone who has rushed through in the bare minimum of hours. Surely that is the object of the excercise?

Paul D.

3rd May 2005, 06:13

Hi. I personally agree with the post above. During the Nav part of my training I was recently invited by a friend to finish my ab initio training in the US. After some thought I decided to finish here in the UK (even if it does take me a bit longer and does cost me a bit more). I'd prefer to finish my training in the environment I'm going to fly in afterwards. Also, having done my RT theory and practical, I have heard that the RT procedures are a bit different over there.

This is just my personal decision. I know some FI's who have finished or done all of their ab initio in the US and some PPL's who have gone and done their IR etc over there. Each to his own, but my choice is to get my PPL over here. I've been able to buy a share in a syndicated 152, so my flying costs post PPL will be less than half what they would be if I had to hire. I'm happy to spend a bit extra getting there, as I want to be as safe a pilot as possible and I feel that the more confident and experienced I become through flying with my FI here, then the safer I should become in the long run.

Good luck to every fellow student wherever they do their training.

PD.

rednine

3rd May 2005, 06:37

Say again slowly

Of course there is more than the weather that was just an example and it would not be appropriate in this forum, which is about FAS, to go into all the issues. I would also add that the variability in the weather and the extremes of weather that I faced in the USA make the UK look like a walk in the park! Also the airspae regulations and numbers of aircraft are much more - nothing difficult about our airspace and regulations is there, really?

I understand that you are a CFI here in the UK, but we must realise that thee are better places than the UK for flight training and also in many other walks of life I am afraid!

Its a big world out there!!! And we need to make all aware of the opportunities that exist --- and at half the cost (not good for CFIs and schools here though!!)

Can you also give me the figures for accidents between pilots trained in the uSA and those in the UK - guess that would be the crucial bit of information for us all to make sound comments on - what do you think?

Have a good day

Rednine:ok:

Cactus99

3rd May 2005, 08:07

RED,

I for one did my PPL in Scotland and then went to states to hour build. When I was out there, I never saw a cloud and 5 knots wind max, hardly what you would call a good training environment for students who could come back to UK with a PPL and then go flying in the Highlands of Scotland.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no substitute for training in the area/ country you will be flying in. and I would suggest any training done at any FTO in Scotland will provide the student with the best training environment available! If anyone can competently fly in Scotland then they should be able to cope with almost anything.

The PPL is the foundation for all future flying, so it is important that it is done properly and not compromised by cost!!

C99

Say again s l o w l y

3rd May 2005, 09:20

I don't have any information on accident statistics, but there is more to flight safety than that! For instance is there a difference in airspace busts, people getting lost etc. Not just how many people hurt/killed themselves.

I have re-trained many people who have come back from the states. In many cases, it has often been just that, an almost complete work up. There are good schools and bad schools wherever you go, but on average and taking into account the environmental differences the U.K schools produce a higher quality product for our conditions. There is more to flying skill than just how you manipulate the controls and how good your landings are.

Personally, I'm not too worried about people going to the States from a business point of view, the club I'm at is non-profit making and I make my living elsewhere so we don't suffer from the same issues as most schools.

Weatherwise there are better places to learn the basics of flying than the U.K, but once you get past the early general handling part of the syllabus and you start to be aware of what is happening around you, that is when you should start your flying in the U.K. For example, some of the big commercial schools (Oxford especially) used to send their students abroad for the initial part of their flight training as it was cheaper, but then they brought them back to the U.K for the more advanced stuff. Why do that if you can do all the training in the U.S? (excepting the IR for obvious reasons.)

Actually, extremes of weather are often easier to operate in than the normal British muck.
Why? If you see that the wind is blowing 50kts and there is a hurricane or thunderstorm approaching, then the decision not to fly is an easy one, but here in the U.K we don't often get those extremes so making the decision to go/not to go is more difficult and people being people the old rules about 'if there's any doubt, then there's no doubt...' go out of the window unfortunately.

Push-on-itis is still a big killer and that is usually because the pilot concerned didn't read the weather well enough before flight and then compounded the folly by making bad decisions in-flight. IMHO someone who has been subjected to the vagaries of the British weather and is used to cancelling flights due to the conditions, is less likely to launch off into dodgy weather than someone who is more used to going flying every time they arrive at the aircraft. It's easier to make a tough decision if you've got a standard to work from i.e knowing when your instructor used to call time on flying gives you something to go on.
I like to take students up in not very nice conditions to give them a small taste of why you don't do it. A difficult thing to do if you are on an intensive course in gin clear weather.

youngskywalker

3rd May 2005, 09:21

Well I trained in Scotland, glad I did as I feel I got good training. However I have flown lots in the States, in fact ive flown all over the States in both single and multi engine aircraft, I have seen every variable of weather imaginable, I have faced more operational challenges over there than I ever will here. Most people train in Florida, the sunshine state as they say........except the summer months when its so turbulent you feel sick, the humidity is so intense that the ASI steams up on the inside of the face, thunderstorms like i've never seen in my life with downdrafts, windshear, microbursts to name but a few.

whether you train here or eslewhere it matters not, a plane is after all a plane and when you paint the letter 'N' on the tail it does not fly any differently, we all fly within the earths athmosphere with its constanly changing weather systems and all locations of the globe have their own challenges for the unwary aviator.

Chose a good quality school, study hard and be safe......

mad_jock

3rd May 2005, 09:37

Cactus has hit the nail on the head. With the UK v's US debate.

I am sure that poeple can pull examples of a hat of pilots coming back doing a 1 hour check out then fying quite happly around the highlands ( or they think they are happy and safe)

I personally did my PPL and hour building in FL then my FI in the UK. And then worked in the highlands instructing.

And apart from the scottish wx there are many factors which are completly different from the US and could potentially be rather fatal if not considered.

1. Lack of fuel and landing places.

As all that have flown in the US know basically from 4000ft you can glide to an airport pretty much from any where in FL apart from the Everglades and as it seems common practise over there if you can't get to an airport you stick it onto the nearest highway you can see. Scotland it can be over 100 miles to the nearest airport and its not garanteed there will be avgas there.

2. Radar cover

You can get a service down to 1000ft anywhere in FL. Over the highlands you will be lucky to get anything below FL70. And with large areas you will be in radio shadow from contacting anyone including 121 with the only chance of help is a relay using the transatlantic traffic going 10W.

3. RT completly different and intially a serious increase in work load. And you will be a complete pain in the arse to all other pilots and ATC until you get with the readbacks and start using rodger and wilco when required instead of reading the whole bloody lot back or not reading back the correct things.

4. UK MIL are a law unto themselves and use different phrasing and may try to control you into IMC.

5. Highland Training area brillant country to fly in but unlike the US guys who think its hard to fly around at 2000ft at 500knts the RAF do it at less than 250ft and if you are trying to use a Glen you can end up with a helicopter going one way you going the other, A FRA falcon trying to dodge the helicopter all with 2 tonkas blasting through under you and a cloud base below the mountain tops. And if you are getting a FIS off scottish them not having a clue they are there. BUt saying that the is something nice about watching 3 hercs flying up Lochness with wakes in the water behined them.

6. Navigation. GPS is not reliable due to various war games and topography. Very easy to end up getting the wrong glen and learn why they teach you performance turns when the ground starts climbing faster than you.

If you want to mountain fly in France or swiss you do a 10-15 hour high intensity course. You wouldn't need that long to cover yourself in Scotland but if you learn up here you will have covered all thats required to safely fly in the area you want to fly in.

And it may be cheap but FL is boring as hell to fly around. If i had my time again it would be PPL in the UK or New Zealand. At least you will get people with a sense of humour, no gun waving redneck pricks in uniforms annoying you, decent pubs and decent beer. And if you go to the FL in the summer its 35 deg's, humid as hell, you are dripping with sweat before you even get the engine started and there bloody love bugs everywhere.

MJ

PS if Euan has moved it may be worth checking out that school as well. Its the instructor that counts not the school as such. And if you are going to sit next to someone for 25hours plus its worth and extra 200-300 quid to get someone you get on with.

rednine

3rd May 2005, 13:05

The most appropriate comments - clear and concise come from young skay walker!

I wasn't sure why you thought that in Scotland you could be 100 miles from an airport! Try looking at a map and I bet thats not possible!!

Common sense should prevail - perhaps we need more!

BRL

3rd May 2005, 13:56

Has anyone any experience of Flight acadamy Scotland? should I be cautious about training with them? was the original question.............

sk8erboi

5th May 2005, 12:32

Judging from all the above I would say the answer is a resounding yes. Be very cautious.

mad_jock

6th May 2005, 16:01

Sorry wasn't counting the western isles in that 100miles but if you want to chance doing a 50 mile water crossing when the airport isn't open and no wx available feel free.

Cactus99

6th May 2005, 17:22

MJ,

I know what you were saying, and you are right about the airports (or lack of them) in Northern Scotland. If an airport goes out of limits then you are pretty goosed in some parts, but then again for most south of the border, this kind of consideration is not an issue with numerous airports/ strips to choose from. Guess its just part of the joys of flying in Scotland.:ok:

Just to echo Sk8erboi's comments above, yes be very wary with FAS. This thread has proved that that there are numerous quality FTO's within Scotland to choose from, choose wisely!!

C99

NorthSouth

6th May 2005, 19:17

Is Katana G-MZ one of FAS's?

Seen flying the wrong direction in the Polmont Lane today.

Not impressed.

NS

Speed Twelve

6th May 2005, 23:03

Mad Jock

Unfortunately the only way to fly with Euan at the moment is to join the Army Air Corps as he's working for DEFTS at Middle Wallop on Army Flying Grading. I think you'd also be hard pressed to get him out of a FireflyM260 and into a Cessna at the moment. Having FireflyM160s at Army Grading is bad enough... After the M260 it's like jumping from a TVR into an MX5....

Anyway he's happy getting to turn up at work in a green growbag and going off to teach aerobatics to potential steely-eyed Apache pilots. If any of the Scottish flying schools acquire anything with enough poke to do vertical rolls he might be persuaded to come back on the odd weekend to do some instruction...

ST

Say again s l o w l y

7th May 2005, 09:41

Hi mate,
Well the extra 300 is on order, unfortunately it's only in my dreams at the moment........:{

Nedd to find someone rich (and daft enough) to buy one and let us operate it. Oooh look a squadron of pigs at 2000 ft!

luckyflyer

7th May 2005, 09:53

Can someone tell me HOW you can fly the wrong way in the polmont lane ????

Speed Twelve

7th May 2005, 10:06

I've seen people fly in the VFR lanes at EDI on the wrong side a few times. It's a bit disconcerting when you're inbound in the Polmont lane keeping the motorway on your left when ATC calls opposite direction traffic which appears head-on at 1/4 of a mile. Had a PA28 do this to me once.

Do bear in mind before condemning FAS as being gash for seeing what was 'possibly' one of their a/c going the wrong way down a VFR lane that it could have been a solo student or PPL and is not necessarily indicative of the school's standards. Even at the most professional civilian school that I worked for I saw a minority of PPLs do the most £uckwitted things in aeroplanes once they were let loose unsupervised. It happens everywhere I'm afraid...

Extra 300! mmmm.... Any aeroplane that needs ratchet harnesses to clamp you to the seat gets my vote!

ST