SE Flying "Fears"

[stiknruda]

Kolibear's Channel post mentions his "dislike" of single engine flight over large tracts of water.

I can understand that but having done quite a bit over water and with the intention of attending an aeros comp in Waterford this summer, my fear of SE over water has largely abated.

Single engine night ops is something that I will never do as I perceive the risk to be too high and also because I fly PFA permit aircraft. I take my hat off to the brave youngster in F3's post, who night-soloed on his 16th birthday - but you'll never catch me doing it!

So what are your fears/intense dislikes?

Stik

[Ludwig]

Does that mean you will not be joining the Waterford night formation flight back then? I thought that was why you have lights on your Pitts.:rolleyes:

[Mike Cross]

Fears

Doing the inverted check and finding the harness is not properly secured.:eek:

[Whirlybird]

All exams and tests. :( :( :(

[TheKentishFledgling]

Don't really have a problem flying SE over water, BUT after my flight in the Alps a few years back, that's something I wouldn't feel comfy doing again.

And reading some of the posts, articles etc on SE IFR, I don't know how happy I'd feel if the cloud was to the deck. When the base is more than ~600' AGL, possibly, but lower than that, I'm not sure.

tKF

[FlyingForFun]

I think that fear stems from the idea of doing something you're not used to. This is something that I've believed since I was in Arozona doing my hour-building a few years ago.

When it came to my mountain-flying checkout, we were a short way into the first leg when I asked my instructor what he'd do if the engine were to fail. "I don't know," he replied. "Um, I guess the best thing to do might be to try to get to that road over there," (pointing to the only visible road, some way off in the distance. "That way if we got out at least we could walk to the road and try to flag someone down."

Talking about it afterwards, my instructor said he flies over the mountains so often he doesn't even think about. And of course anyone who flies from the Channel Islands is quite used to single-engine over water. It's just a case of what you're used to.

FFF
--------------

[Fuji Abound]

Reading these posts a number of words and phrases come to mind, "fear, what you are use to, complacency, realistic assessment of the risks". They are an interesting mix, some rational, some not.

Because you are use to something it may replace the fear but equally maybe you may become more complacent and maybe the fear started because you knew if you realistically assessed the risks you wouldnt be doing it!:confused:

[Timothy]

Well, at least one of the people who has expressed lack of concern above has had an engine failure in a single in the last two months, so that explanation isn't enough.

[deice]

Come now, sensible people stay on the ground, preferrably locked in a house somewhere with no furniture, electrics, water or anything even remotely dangerous. In fact, it's best to end it right away so as to avoid the worries :uhoh:

Seriously though. Flying is a calculated risk just like skydiving, motorcycle riding, mountain climbing etc. Even driving to work involves a risk. As humans I would say we accept certain risks, placing them in the back of our head. It's based on reasoning (statistics), comparison and our mental level of fear towards certain things.

Why would it be OK to fly over water but not at night or over mountains? Is there statistical evidence to prove one better than the other? In probing my own mind I must admit that I cleverly "forget" to be afraid once I go off flying. However, sitting on the ground I can imagine the most gruesome accident taking my life or crippling me forever. I have 4 kids so there is no sound logic that explains why I do fly at all. I could die tomorrow, and it may be in the pattern because I forgot to switch fuel tanks, the engine quit and I did a p*ss poor job of flying and crashed into a tree. Accidents are waiting to happen all the time whether you fly this way or that.

My fear is to be caught off guard by something I should've done but was too stupid to notice. So in a sense I'm more afraid of myself than anything else out there. I have flown down to 250ft through low stratus in SE (after crossing water) at night with no where else to go. The ILS worked and I'm still here. So, I'll do it again... - perhaps I really am stupid! :sad:

[dublinpilot]

Well, for me, it's the SE over water.

It terrifies me (which does help focus the mind on checks!), but once I'm airbourne, most of the fear is gone, and the mind is simply on the task.

Having said that, when ship comes into gilding distance, there is a sense of relief, and when land starts to emerge from the murk ahead, it is a very welcome sight.

So why do I do it? Because the sense of achievement at the far end is tremendious (having flown to another country, rather than simply having faced my fear of the water crossing), and because touring is what attracted me to flying in the first place.

dp

[noisy]

My instructor recently sent me off on my first bumble away from the airfield. Between BPK and EGTR the engine began to make noises. I monitored the T's & P's closely and exercised the carb heat. I also had a squint out the window and wondered if I would be able to make it to Panshanger.
The noises were of course in my imagination. What a strange phonomenon.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Fire.

Whenever I have a test, when it gets to the bit of the briefing about "if we have a real emercency you are still in charge, how you handle a real emergency is part of the test" I tell the examiner that that's fine except for fire, in which case I want him to take control instantly without waiting to be asked, forget the test, let's just see if we can get out alive.

(I'm perfectly happy flying SEP at 200' above water ... but I do prefer to be wearing floats whilst doing so.)

[DB6]

Structural failure with no parachute :ooh: .
Can't say I've ever been bothered by night or over-water single-engined stuff; no less dangerous than 20 feet over Rannoch Moor, just not as much fun!

[IO540]

As has been stated, there is a risk doing just about anything.

The important thing is to always (or nearly always) have a way out.

So, I'd fly into known icing, with the objective being to climb on top, provided that the 0C level was well above (say 2000ft above) the MSA.

I've happily flown straight over the Swiss/Italian Alps, about 2000ft above the highest peak for miles around, and 99% of the time there was a way out - down below are valleys with fields, and there are many other places. But I wouldn't fly in the canyons like so many mountail flyers do - that carries a different danger which needs excellent local knowledge.

I've done 2+ hr flights over water - again there is a way out because one carries a raft, an EPIRB, wears a life jacket, and other stuff.

All the above have a way out - or nearly all the time.

Unlike many, I wouldn't fly at night - though I've had to as part of the JAA NQ and then lots more for the FAA PPL. But I don't think I will do it again. Unless it was a full moon and I was over a very calm sea, or very open countryside. I just don't think one has a good way out at night.

I am also not happy over a lot of forest. That's a near certain death. Oddly, most people think nothing of it.

A BRS chute would be great.

[TheKentishFledgling]

This has got me thinking. A question for those that regularly wear parachutes (stik, DB6?).

If you're over one of these "SE unfriendly" areas (forest, sea, mountains etc) and the engine fails, and won't restart, do you use the parachute you're wearing, or stay with the aircraft down to the deck?

tKF

[shortstripper]

A very interesting question that one TKF!

I've often thought it but can't decide if I'd be disciplined enough to actually jump from a perfectly controllable aeroplane. Structural failure is one thing ... but to decide otherwise must take courage or a certain knowledge that the chute IS a better option. I've also often thought that I really should do a sponsored jump or something to dispell the "fear"? or parachuteing.

Nothing to worry about if you don't wear a chute much though :\

SS

[Sultan Ismail]

Forests

These are also my greatest fear, in this part of the world they are known as jungle, but a canopy of trees anywhere is no place to park an aircraft.

Having landed on the canopy how do you get down? If you don't have the answer to this you are going to die, try getting down a 200 foot tree without a rope, maybe a parachute would be a good idea here, along with a sharp knife to cut it into strips.

Unrecognised fears

When I completed my Night Rating in South Africa it involved a XC from Grand Central out to Rustenburg and back via Lanseria, that experience was enough for me to put the Rating away for another life, flying over a black hole really has no future if the engine quits.

Fast forward a few years and now I fly regular night sorties over Kuala Lumpur, around the Petronas Twin Towers and the KL Tower, frightening the bejesus out of diners in the rotating restaurant as I flash the landing lights from 200 metres. If the engine quits I might make it back to the runway, there again I might not in which case a well lit toll road with little traffic becomes the best option.

We regularly practice pfl's into golf courses, but a pfl onto a highway may not go down to well with the traffic cops.

Need to think this one through before the next sortie :confused:

[shortstripper]

I'm prety sure a golf course would be the very last place I'd want to put down at night :uhoh:

SS

[stiknruda]

tKf,

To date the only time that I have planned to leave (hit the silk)the aircraft in the event of catastrophic engine failure is mid-Channel!

I currently think that in all other scenarios, I'd ride the aeroplane down and find somewhere to land it.

Golf Courses. An acquaintance of mine perished several years ago (it was in Jo'burg and I can't recall if it was Rand or Grand Central, Rand seems favourite). He had an efato and elected to put it down on the golf course next to the airfield. On the landing roll he ran into the only large tree on the fairway and that was that. RIP Jeremy.

If I were high enough and could set up an aggresive side-slip to allow me a good view down the side of the nose, I might try a golf course, par 5 of course!


Stik

[aerobatic_dude]

Having flown a few trip's over water in single engine aircraft and some night flying in single engine aircraft i am now comfortable with the concept of flying over water in a single engine provided i have a Life Jacket and Raft. I flew 4 times this weekend. All engine's ran smoothly.

How likely is an engine to fail ?

[S-Works]

wowser, I must be waiting to die. ........ :p

I fly at night all the time, I fly single engine over water loads (despite having easy access to a twin) and a fly single engine IFR.

Stik - Night flying is one of the nicest of flights and as I said to a mutal friend of ours when coming back from Gloucester a couple of weeks ago in the dark if the donk quits and we dont like what we see we can always turn the light off (which was promptly followed by the bulb blowing!)!!!

None of this worries me, the same as riding my motorbike, driving my car, drinking beer, drinking coffee, sitting in my Jacuzzi to long, going out in the sun, stepping from the train when the platform might be slippy or scuba diving, the list goes on!

I allowed my children to throw snowballs without a risk assessment, to pick there hotdog up from the floor and eat it after dropping it and even to go flying with me and they even lived to tell the tale!

Living and enjoying life is about risk. We make an assessment and decide what is acceptable to us.

Personally when I get to my deathbed I want to feel that I lived before I died.

Reading some of the comments on here I am suprised many posters even leave the house in the morning let alone took up flying in the first place!!

[Sensible]

To be perfectly honest, I do SE mountain flying and several hundreds of miles over water as well as night flying without a thought other than to achieve a reasonable altitude so as to remain in contact with ATC. Personally, I think that the airport traffic pattern and landing are far more dangerous than all of the above. And I have a strong sense of self preservation!

[QSK?]

aerobatic_dude: How likely is an engine to fail ? Exactly!

A single engine on an aircraft doesn't know whether its flying over water or land, so why the sudden apprehension of pilots when flying over water or mountains?

How many pilots can honestly put their hand on their hearts and say that they have suffered a complete engine failure in a SE aircraft? Compare that to the number of pilots who can say they have suffered engine failures in a ME aircraft and I suspect the number would be a lot more. Your car is a SE vehicle, so how many times has your car engine suddenly stopped while you were in heavy traffic on the freeway?

Did Bert Hinkler or Charles Lindburgh worry about crossing water in their SE aircraft back in the 1920s/30s? Surely SE technology and reliability has advanced significantly since that time?

It is interesting to note that insurance premium trends in the US have actually reversed in recent times. Premiums for SE aircraft have now gone down in response to the lower perceived risk (apparently SE aircraft manufacturers go to greater lengths to ensure SE reliability in order to avoid potential litigation), while premiums for ME aircraft have generally gone up due to the belief held by many insurance companies that there is a greater risk of pilots mishandling an OEI scenario with catastrophic results.

[ThePirateKing]

QSK,

Your car is a SE vehicle, so how many times has your car engine suddenly stopped while you were in heavy traffic on the freeway?

My fiancee's Citreon C3 does this all the time. Worse, it does it on the motorway sometimes. Citreon swear there's no problem. (It also forgets all the radio pre-sets if you turn it off with a CD playing.)

TPK:ok:

[stiknruda]

QSK?

You are of course perfectly correct, the a/c has no idea what it is flying over.

I on the other hand am very aware of what is beneath me. The over water issue for me was more of an, "if I have a catastrophic engine failure over water - not only will I get very wet and very possibly very cold very quickly BUT I will also lose my pride and joy". Both of the aircraft that I own have no satisfactory space for a liferaft - notwithstanding that a liferaft will still not preclude me from watching the aircraft sink!

Should I suffer the same cataclysmic failure over land, then I have a markedly greater chance of walking away from a repairable airframe.

The fear about night flying is that because I really won't have much clue as to where I put the aircraft down and I therefore negate the advantages mentioned in the previous paragraph!

It all has to do with risk appetite - and mine is far from being hungry!

I lost an engine in a contra-rotating twin when downwind some years ago and the good engine was just powerful enough to get me safely to the threshold. The fun was trying to taxi with only one donk.

Stik

[Yorks.ppl]

How long would you have to deploy life rafts etc when the plane ditched, does it float for a bit whilst it fills up with water or does it go straight down?
Have to admit I am a little worried about crossing water.

[TheKentishFledgling]

Reading stik's post, the thought of trying to get out a Pitts or similar after a ditching is making me shudder.....:hmm:

tKF

[stiknruda]

Dhoh, Ed - that's why I'd jump!

[TheKentishFledgling]

Guessed so!

tKF

[dublinpilot]

How likely is an engine to fail ?

The second part of this, that needs to be asked, is "What are the consequences of it failing?"

They are quite different, different depending on what's below you!

I think IO540 has it right when he says:

The important thing is to always (or nearly always) have a way out.

When ever I fly over water, I always carry life jackets and a life raft, and have a clearly thought out plan for my 3 minutes in the air after a sudden failure, and for my first few minutes in the water.

It still scares me, but at least I have a way out, and a reasonable chance of survival.

I once was offered the chance to go flying across the Irish Sea with someone, who didn't have the space for a life raft, so only life jackets. I wouldn't go.

How long would you have to deploy life rafts etc when the plane ditched, does it float for a bit whilst it fills up with water or does it go straight down?

York, have a look here (http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm) and here (http://www.equipped.org/ditchtoc.htm#lessonslearned) for some useful information.

dp

[Yorks.ppl]

Thanks Dublin, loads of fascinating info, I feel better about flying to Ireland now:ok:

[nouseforaname]

I do the route your probably going to be taking a lot in a SE usually IFR also.

If you are quite high call shannon at strumble before you coast out, i'm usually about FL100 and I get them no trouble. They will be able to see you on radar from there, remember London Info. have no radar service!

TD

[dublinpilot]

If you are coming over this direction, and want to meet up for a drink, let me know!

;)

[Yorks.ppl]

was that invite for dublin? If so thanks:ok:

[dublinpilot]

Well, I'm currently grounded for want of a serviceable airplane, and having severe withdrawal symptoms! So there's an open invitation!

You might want to leave it until the Irish Sea gets a little warmer though.

But all visitors are welcome!

How about a 2005 PPrune fly out to Ireland?

[Yorks.ppl]

"pprune flyout to Ireland"

excelent idea, any takers?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

how many times has your car engine suddenly stopped while you were in heavy traffic on the freeway? More than once.

On one occasion it was just somewhat embarassing due to the presence of a client in the car.

On another occasion it was actually somewhat frightening, as I was in a small car in the outside lane of a motorway surrounded by juggernauts on three sides in very low visibility due to heavy rain and spray (which was why the engine stopped). I did manage to coast through the juggernauts to the hard shoulder without getting squashed, but it didn't feel easy.

[slim_slag]

Can't say I blame you, Stik, for not wanting to fly SE at night, but I defend the right for anybody who does, and if they want to do it over my head that's fine by me too.

Last time I did a night flight was into Vegas alongside The Strip (impressing a chick, works well), but even then I flew across the desert during the day and 'parked up' just outside town until the sun went down. On a full moon night you can see surprisingly well, and you'd be fine following a road on those nights, but whenever I go somewhere long distance I generally end up using the airlines now.

I don't think you can compare a lycoming with one of these modern car engines, but there are others here which can explain why that is a lot better than I can.

[2Donkeys]

I think that it easy to make too much of the risks associated with single-engined flight at night or over water. The risks of engine failure (other than through pilot error) are vanishingly small. Load enough fuel and plan conservatively and your fate is substantially in your own hands.

2D

[aerobatic_dude]

Fly out to Ireland.

Fantastic idea, The Sunny South East is a nice place you know ;)

[Microheavy]

Oi Dublin Pilot, whats wrong with poor oul Mike Bravo ? Not good enough for ya anymore :D

[dublinpilot]

Poor old MB is grounded with an temp electrical prob :{

And the weather has been SO flyable :ugh:

dp

[Microheavy]

Damnation !

I was hoping to get up next week for the first time in 4 months !

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Whilst she (CFI) flies a jet service around the Alps and Europe/US she was critical of even other singles such as the Cirrus for flying over the local terrain. The issue being the strong winds and thermals combined with the fact that a/c such as the Cirrus were “too light and quick.”

With due respect to your instructor, that is rubbish. For sure, you can explore narrow valleys more safely at 70kts in a Super Cub than at 160kts in a Cirrus, but as long as you understand the weather and are familiar with the performance and handling of the plane you're flying, you can fly through the mountains quite safely in almost anything.

As for the fears of flying SE over mountains, they are exaggerated. An aeroplane will stop in a very short distance if you land uphill. You will almost certainly break the aeroplane, but compared to a forced landing in a densely populated area, or on water, the mountains offer many more options.

[pponting]

Mine is SE over water. Not because I think the fan will stop but because I have an inherrant fear of water! I get a little aggitated crossing the Dee Esturary :)

Although, 4 years ago my main fear was flying...! Now I am post PPL (85 hours) and have what I can only be described as a 'health fear of flying'.

Gotta try and get over my fear of the blasted water now, any suggestions? I did consider diving with sharks but eventually though :mad: that, I am scared, not stupid!

[IO540]

The issue being the strong winds and thermals combined with the fact that a/c such as the Cirrus were “too light and quick.”

An "instructor" with this kind of attitude should not be teaching.

I've been right over Samedan and an SR22 can easily do exactly what I did in something similar: go straight over the top of the whole lot, in a nice straight line, FL130 or higher. With a decent plane one doesn't have to mess about inside the canyons.

The only inconvenience is having to sniff some O2 :O

[Flyboy-F33]

Biggest concern is losing one blade of the prop..! It would lead almost certainly to the engine tearing itself from the mountings and inevitable loss of control (in a SEP) due to massive shift in C of G

Nasty...........

Fly...