SE Flying "Fears"
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SE Flying "Fears"
Kolibear's Channel post mentions his "dislike" of single engine flight over large tracts of water.
I can understand that but having done quite a bit over water and with the intention of attending an aeros comp in Waterford this summer, my fear of SE over water has largely abated.
Single engine night ops is something that I will never do as I perceive the risk to be too high and also because I fly PFA permit aircraft. I take my hat off to the brave youngster in F3's post, who night-soloed on his 16th birthday - but you'll never catch me doing it!
So what are your fears/intense dislikes?
Stik
I can understand that but having done quite a bit over water and with the intention of attending an aeros comp in Waterford this summer, my fear of SE over water has largely abated.
Single engine night ops is something that I will never do as I perceive the risk to be too high and also because I fly PFA permit aircraft. I take my hat off to the brave youngster in F3's post, who night-soloed on his 16th birthday - but you'll never catch me doing it!
So what are your fears/intense dislikes?
Stik
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Don't really have a problem flying SE over water, BUT after my flight in the Alps a few years back, that's something I wouldn't feel comfy doing again.
And reading some of the posts, articles etc on SE IFR, I don't know how happy I'd feel if the cloud was to the deck. When the base is more than ~600' AGL, possibly, but lower than that, I'm not sure.
tKF
And reading some of the posts, articles etc on SE IFR, I don't know how happy I'd feel if the cloud was to the deck. When the base is more than ~600' AGL, possibly, but lower than that, I'm not sure.
tKF
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I think that fear stems from the idea of doing something you're not used to. This is something that I've believed since I was in Arozona doing my hour-building a few years ago.
When it came to my mountain-flying checkout, we were a short way into the first leg when I asked my instructor what he'd do if the engine were to fail. "I don't know," he replied. "Um, I guess the best thing to do might be to try to get to that road over there," (pointing to the only visible road, some way off in the distance. "That way if we got out at least we could walk to the road and try to flag someone down."
Talking about it afterwards, my instructor said he flies over the mountains so often he doesn't even think about. And of course anyone who flies from the Channel Islands is quite used to single-engine over water. It's just a case of what you're used to.
FFF
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When it came to my mountain-flying checkout, we were a short way into the first leg when I asked my instructor what he'd do if the engine were to fail. "I don't know," he replied. "Um, I guess the best thing to do might be to try to get to that road over there," (pointing to the only visible road, some way off in the distance. "That way if we got out at least we could walk to the road and try to flag someone down."
Talking about it afterwards, my instructor said he flies over the mountains so often he doesn't even think about. And of course anyone who flies from the Channel Islands is quite used to single-engine over water. It's just a case of what you're used to.
FFF
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Reading these posts a number of words and phrases come to mind, "fear, what you are use to, complacency, realistic assessment of the risks". They are an interesting mix, some rational, some not.
Because you are use to something it may replace the fear but equally maybe you may become more complacent and maybe the fear started because you knew if you realistically assessed the risks you wouldnt be doing it!
Because you are use to something it may replace the fear but equally maybe you may become more complacent and maybe the fear started because you knew if you realistically assessed the risks you wouldnt be doing it!
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Well, at least one of the people who has expressed lack of concern above has had an engine failure in a single in the last two months, so that explanation isn't enough.
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Come now, sensible people stay on the ground, preferrably locked in a house somewhere with no furniture, electrics, water or anything even remotely dangerous. In fact, it's best to end it right away so as to avoid the worries 
Seriously though. Flying is a calculated risk just like skydiving, motorcycle riding, mountain climbing etc. Even driving to work involves a risk. As humans I would say we accept certain risks, placing them in the back of our head. It's based on reasoning (statistics), comparison and our mental level of fear towards certain things.
Why would it be OK to fly over water but not at night or over mountains? Is there statistical evidence to prove one better than the other? In probing my own mind I must admit that I cleverly "forget" to be afraid once I go off flying. However, sitting on the ground I can imagine the most gruesome accident taking my life or crippling me forever. I have 4 kids so there is no sound logic that explains why I do fly at all. I could die tomorrow, and it may be in the pattern because I forgot to switch fuel tanks, the engine quit and I did a p*ss poor job of flying and crashed into a tree. Accidents are waiting to happen all the time whether you fly this way or that.
My fear is to be caught off guard by something I should've done but was too stupid to notice. So in a sense I'm more afraid of myself than anything else out there. I have flown down to 250ft through low stratus in SE (after crossing water) at night with no where else to go. The ILS worked and I'm still here. So, I'll do it again... - perhaps I really am stupid!
Seriously though. Flying is a calculated risk just like skydiving, motorcycle riding, mountain climbing etc. Even driving to work involves a risk. As humans I would say we accept certain risks, placing them in the back of our head. It's based on reasoning (statistics), comparison and our mental level of fear towards certain things.
Why would it be OK to fly over water but not at night or over mountains? Is there statistical evidence to prove one better than the other? In probing my own mind I must admit that I cleverly "forget" to be afraid once I go off flying. However, sitting on the ground I can imagine the most gruesome accident taking my life or crippling me forever. I have 4 kids so there is no sound logic that explains why I do fly at all. I could die tomorrow, and it may be in the pattern because I forgot to switch fuel tanks, the engine quit and I did a p*ss poor job of flying and crashed into a tree. Accidents are waiting to happen all the time whether you fly this way or that.
My fear is to be caught off guard by something I should've done but was too stupid to notice. So in a sense I'm more afraid of myself than anything else out there. I have flown down to 250ft through low stratus in SE (after crossing water) at night with no where else to go. The ILS worked and I'm still here. So, I'll do it again... - perhaps I really am stupid!
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Well, for me, it's the SE over water.
It terrifies me (which does help focus the mind on checks!), but once I'm airbourne, most of the fear is gone, and the mind is simply on the task.
Having said that, when ship comes into gilding distance, there is a sense of relief, and when land starts to emerge from the murk ahead, it is a very welcome sight.
So why do I do it? Because the sense of achievement at the far end is tremendious (having flown to another country, rather than simply having faced my fear of the water crossing), and because touring is what attracted me to flying in the first place.
dp
It terrifies me (which does help focus the mind on checks!), but once I'm airbourne, most of the fear is gone, and the mind is simply on the task.
Having said that, when ship comes into gilding distance, there is a sense of relief, and when land starts to emerge from the murk ahead, it is a very welcome sight.
So why do I do it? Because the sense of achievement at the far end is tremendious (having flown to another country, rather than simply having faced my fear of the water crossing), and because touring is what attracted me to flying in the first place.
dp
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My instructor recently sent me off on my first bumble away from the airfield. Between BPK and EGTR the engine began to make noises. I monitored the T's & P's closely and exercised the carb heat. I also had a squint out the window and wondered if I would be able to make it to Panshanger.
The noises were of course in my imagination. What a strange phonomenon.
The noises were of course in my imagination. What a strange phonomenon.
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Fire.
Whenever I have a test, when it gets to the bit of the briefing about "if we have a real emercency you are still in charge, how you handle a real emergency is part of the test" I tell the examiner that that's fine except for fire, in which case I want him to take control instantly without waiting to be asked, forget the test, let's just see if we can get out alive.
(I'm perfectly happy flying SEP at 200' above water ... but I do prefer to be wearing floats whilst doing so.)
Whenever I have a test, when it gets to the bit of the briefing about "if we have a real emercency you are still in charge, how you handle a real emergency is part of the test" I tell the examiner that that's fine except for fire, in which case I want him to take control instantly without waiting to be asked, forget the test, let's just see if we can get out alive.
(I'm perfectly happy flying SEP at 200' above water ... but I do prefer to be wearing floats whilst doing so.)
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Structural failure with no parachute 
.
Can't say I've ever been bothered by night or over-water single-engined stuff; no less dangerous than 20 feet over Rannoch Moor, just not as much fun!
.Can't say I've ever been bothered by night or over-water single-engined stuff; no less dangerous than 20 feet over Rannoch Moor, just not as much fun!
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As has been stated, there is a risk doing just about anything.
The important thing is to always (or nearly always) have a way out.
So, I'd fly into known icing, with the objective being to climb on top, provided that the 0C level was well above (say 2000ft above) the MSA.
I've happily flown straight over the Swiss/Italian Alps, about 2000ft above the highest peak for miles around, and 99% of the time there was a way out - down below are valleys with fields, and there are many other places. But I wouldn't fly in the canyons like so many mountail flyers do - that carries a different danger which needs excellent local knowledge.
I've done 2+ hr flights over water - again there is a way out because one carries a raft, an EPIRB, wears a life jacket, and other stuff.
All the above have a way out - or nearly all the time.
Unlike many, I wouldn't fly at night - though I've had to as part of the JAA NQ and then lots more for the FAA PPL. But I don't think I will do it again. Unless it was a full moon and I was over a very calm sea, or very open countryside. I just don't think one has a good way out at night.
I am also not happy over a lot of forest. That's a near certain death. Oddly, most people think nothing of it.
A BRS chute would be great.
The important thing is to always (or nearly always) have a way out.
So, I'd fly into known icing, with the objective being to climb on top, provided that the 0C level was well above (say 2000ft above) the MSA.
I've happily flown straight over the Swiss/Italian Alps, about 2000ft above the highest peak for miles around, and 99% of the time there was a way out - down below are valleys with fields, and there are many other places. But I wouldn't fly in the canyons like so many mountail flyers do - that carries a different danger which needs excellent local knowledge.
I've done 2+ hr flights over water - again there is a way out because one carries a raft, an EPIRB, wears a life jacket, and other stuff.
All the above have a way out - or nearly all the time.
Unlike many, I wouldn't fly at night - though I've had to as part of the JAA NQ and then lots more for the FAA PPL. But I don't think I will do it again. Unless it was a full moon and I was over a very calm sea, or very open countryside. I just don't think one has a good way out at night.
I am also not happy over a lot of forest. That's a near certain death. Oddly, most people think nothing of it.
A BRS chute would be great.
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This has got me thinking. A question for those that regularly wear parachutes (stik, DB6?).
If you're over one of these "SE unfriendly" areas (forest, sea, mountains etc) and the engine fails, and won't restart, do you use the parachute you're wearing, or stay with the aircraft down to the deck?
tKF
If you're over one of these "SE unfriendly" areas (forest, sea, mountains etc) and the engine fails, and won't restart, do you use the parachute you're wearing, or stay with the aircraft down to the deck?
tKF
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A very interesting question that one TKF!
I've often thought it but can't decide if I'd be disciplined enough to actually jump from a perfectly controllable aeroplane. Structural failure is one thing ... but to decide otherwise must take courage or a certain knowledge that the chute IS a better option. I've also often thought that I really should do a sponsored jump or something to dispell the "fear"? or parachuteing.
Nothing to worry about if you don't wear a chute much though
SS
I've often thought it but can't decide if I'd be disciplined enough to actually jump from a perfectly controllable aeroplane. Structural failure is one thing ... but to decide otherwise must take courage or a certain knowledge that the chute IS a better option. I've also often thought that I really should do a sponsored jump or something to dispell the "fear"? or parachuteing.
Nothing to worry about if you don't wear a chute much though
SS
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Forests
These are also my greatest fear, in this part of the world they are known as jungle, but a canopy of trees anywhere is no place to park an aircraft.
Having landed on the canopy how do you get down? If you don't have the answer to this you are going to die, try getting down a 200 foot tree without a rope, maybe a parachute would be a good idea here, along with a sharp knife to cut it into strips.
Unrecognised fears
When I completed my Night Rating in South Africa it involved a XC from Grand Central out to Rustenburg and back via Lanseria, that experience was enough for me to put the Rating away for another life, flying over a black hole really has no future if the engine quits.
Fast forward a few years and now I fly regular night sorties over Kuala Lumpur, around the Petronas Twin Towers and the KL Tower, frightening the bejesus out of diners in the rotating restaurant as I flash the landing lights from 200 metres. If the engine quits I might make it back to the runway, there again I might not in which case a well lit toll road with little traffic becomes the best option.
We regularly practice pfl's into golf courses, but a pfl onto a highway may not go down to well with the traffic cops.
Need to think this one through before the next sortie
These are also my greatest fear, in this part of the world they are known as jungle, but a canopy of trees anywhere is no place to park an aircraft.
Having landed on the canopy how do you get down? If you don't have the answer to this you are going to die, try getting down a 200 foot tree without a rope, maybe a parachute would be a good idea here, along with a sharp knife to cut it into strips.
Unrecognised fears
When I completed my Night Rating in South Africa it involved a XC from Grand Central out to Rustenburg and back via Lanseria, that experience was enough for me to put the Rating away for another life, flying over a black hole really has no future if the engine quits.
Fast forward a few years and now I fly regular night sorties over Kuala Lumpur, around the Petronas Twin Towers and the KL Tower, frightening the bejesus out of diners in the rotating restaurant as I flash the landing lights from 200 metres. If the engine quits I might make it back to the runway, there again I might not in which case a well lit toll road with little traffic becomes the best option.
We regularly practice pfl's into golf courses, but a pfl onto a highway may not go down to well with the traffic cops.
Need to think this one through before the next sortie
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tKf,
To date the only time that I have planned to leave (hit the silk)the aircraft in the event of catastrophic engine failure is mid-Channel!
I currently think that in all other scenarios, I'd ride the aeroplane down and find somewhere to land it.
Golf Courses. An acquaintance of mine perished several years ago (it was in Jo'burg and I can't recall if it was Rand or Grand Central, Rand seems favourite). He had an efato and elected to put it down on the golf course next to the airfield. On the landing roll he ran into the only large tree on the fairway and that was that. RIP Jeremy.
If I were high enough and could set up an aggresive side-slip to allow me a good view down the side of the nose, I might try a golf course, par 5 of course!
Stik
To date the only time that I have planned to leave (hit the silk)the aircraft in the event of catastrophic engine failure is mid-Channel!
I currently think that in all other scenarios, I'd ride the aeroplane down and find somewhere to land it.
Golf Courses. An acquaintance of mine perished several years ago (it was in Jo'burg and I can't recall if it was Rand or Grand Central, Rand seems favourite). He had an efato and elected to put it down on the golf course next to the airfield. On the landing roll he ran into the only large tree on the fairway and that was that. RIP Jeremy.
If I were high enough and could set up an aggresive side-slip to allow me a good view down the side of the nose, I might try a golf course, par 5 of course!
Stik
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Having flown a few trip's over water in single engine aircraft and some night flying in single engine aircraft i am now comfortable with the concept of flying over water in a single engine provided i have a Life Jacket and Raft. I flew 4 times this weekend. All engine's ran smoothly.
How likely is an engine to fail ?
How likely is an engine to fail ?