PA28 Checkout

[pponting]

Just wondering if anyone has any views on this.

I am a PPL with a tad short of 90 hours training on the Tomahawk. I want to checkout on the PA28 as I want to carry more PAX. I have a friend who is at the same level as me and she also wants to checkout in the PA28. We have decided to do the checkout sort of jointly in parallel. The idea being she sits in the back as a 'silent passenger' during my checkout and I do the same when she has hers. The reasoning is that it 'loads up' the plane to a level that is likely to be used and also gives this 'silent passenger' additional experience.

The problem is the flying school have almost outright blasted this as a terrible idea. I will not go into detail but will list a few of their reasons for the bad idea.

The back seat PAX will likely get ill during the practising....

It is too risky to have PAX when practicing slow flight/steep turns/spin awareness.

Asking PAX to sit in during this training is putting their lives at risk....

It is no benefit to me having my PPL friend sitting in the back because we may not always fly together in future…


In a nutshell, the checkride roughly equates to 4-5 hours of flying split roughly as follows (as explained to me by the school)

3-4 hours two up (me + instruction) doing all the handling, slow flight, steep turns, nav, PFL's etc.

1 circuit fully loaded MTOW to give me an idea of what the handling characteristics are like fully loaded.

My argument is that I am only likely to fly 4 up in the PA28 and would therefore prefer (brave PAX willing) to do 3-4 hours loaded up and they finish of maybe with a circuit or two with a lighter load and solo. As the majority of my PA28 flying will be 3+ up then I would assume it better to be trained this way. If I planned a 2 up trip I would probably take the cheaper and more readily availably Tommy.

I told the instructor that I would prefer my first dealing with a possible steep turn or near stall not be with me wife and children aboard but with a QFI and ballast. He told me that it was to dangerous to do all the other practice fully laden….!



Any view appreciated.

[BeechNut]

The PA28 is not cleared for spins with anyone in the back seat; there are CofG issues that can make the spin unrecoverable. So it would not be a good idea to teach spin recognition with anyone occupying the rear (some models, and some options within a specific model, for example those with a ventilation blower in the tail, aren't cleared for spins at all).

And since a badly handled stall can turn into a spin (although admittedly, based on my PA28 experience, in which I have a couple of hundred hours, making it spin takes some effort), it would not be a good idea to practise stalls with the back seat occupied.

The issue of someone in the backseat upchucking-even an experienced pilot-is not to be neglected when doing steep turns, etc. ad nauseam. When I did my PA28 checkout many years ago (on a -181, I ended up owning a late-model PA28-140E), I did the full-up thing only near the end of the checkout doing circuits and bumps, with one friend and one air cadet in the back seat, both of whom exited somewhat green in colour due to the hot weather and turbulence, and (at the time) low-hour PPL ham-fisting it around the circuit. I've also been the ballast in the back seat for a ham-fisted pilot checking out on a Sierra (which he eventually-and non-fatally-crashed), during circuits and even though I can do modest aerobatics without getting sick, it was NOT a pleasant experience.

That said, the PA28 is not mysterious to fly; don't know which model you're planning to check out on, but you've already got low-wing experience (in a Traumahawk no less!), so I really think the instructor is wisest on this as there's little to be gained from observation. Moreover, if your friend wants to be checked out as well, it's not going to happen in the back seat for her, but in the left one. We're not talking a procedure-intensive aircraft here like a transport-category aircraft where just observing procedures from the jumpseat would be beneficial. The procedures in the PA28 will be largely similar to the Traumahawk. The only real "experience" she'll gain back there is being an extra set of eyes checking out for traffic.

That said my last check-out was when I bought my current Sundowner; but insurance only asked for a summary checkout, and the CFI that delivered the plane to me checked out my flying buddy and myself as we did a multi-stage trip to fly him home. We didn't do stalls or things like that; I had done them and full spins anyway at the pre-buy test flight, with an instructor.

Mike

[Final 3 Greens]

PPonting

It is the school's aeroplane, so I guess that they can dictate SOPs.

However, I have done most of the things that you mention with pax in the back, during training and that obviously was not considered a problem by the school I was flying with.

I think that your idea to fly the PA28 at heavy weights is sensible - it does handle a little differently, although not dramatically so. Also, the 850fpm rate of climb that you could get out of a lightly loaded Archer will be reduced to crica 500fpm and it is no bad thing to experience that under instruction, before you go out alone.

You will find, in general terms, it is rather easier to handle than a Tommy and is a very docile platform for touring.

I disagree, respectfully, with Beechnut. No observation for low hour pilots is ever a waste of time, there is much to be learned from watching others being taught.

[Genghis the Engineer]

It strikes me that the school / rental operation is being a tad OTT here, but maybe erring slightly on the side of caution.

Specifically:-

- You aren't asking to fly with A.N.Other pax in the back seat, you are asking to fly with another PPL. In that position they should know enough to realise any risks and accept them, and also to handle any airsickness issues.

- Nav? Apart from flying a little bit faster, and a slightly poorer view out of the window, I fail to see any significant difference between navigating the PA38 that you are used to, and this PA28.

- There is absolutely nothing even faintly scarey or unpleasant about stalls, low speed, steep turns etc. in a PA28 - it is one of the most docile aeroplanes I've ever flown. I'd personally be quite happy practicing these with my Granny in the back (mind you, I have a very remarkable Granny!).

- If an FI has a problem doing a stall or 60° banked turn in a PA28 at MAUW, they have a serious confidence problem as an instructor. I'd find another instructor.

- Nobody can have too much time in the air, even if it's only sat in the back watching the bloke in the front being checked out.


Okay, yes, it's their aeroplane and they are setting the rules. Also, by any post-WW1 standard your 90 hours is low experience, but nonetheless I'm unconvinced that this degree of precaution is necessary or appropriate.

Plus, it's a heck of a lot easier putting a spare pilot in the back than lugging around and securing ballast bags, always assuming that the school have any.


So, PPonting I personally think your own view and approach are entirely reasonable, probably more so than those of the school.


Of course, it may be that the school know you and don't think that you can fly for toffee - in which case they should just say so ! :}

G


N.B. On a practical point, I've earned my living on and off over about 15 years as a Flight Test Engineer, which often involves sitting in the back/right of an aeroplane whilst a test pilot does their best to make me airsick, and a few have come incredibly close to succeeding. If I may offer a few hints here: (1) don't eat for a few hours before flying, (2) keep the cabin temperature down and fresh air flow up, (3) if unsure of yourself as a pax, there's no shame in taking a non-drowsy type seasickness pill a few hours before flying [do check the instructions], (4) If in doubt do something active (such as taking notes) and keep your head out of the cockpit as far as you can, and (5) take a sealable sick-bag anyhow - better still, two!

[Aussie Andy]

My last three club-checks at RAF Benson have been done in a PA28 with a passenger in the back - no reason why this can't be done.

I doubt spinning is the reason: we aren't allowed to spin them at all.

Andy

[pponting]

BeechNut

While I see what you are saying, I really do not understand the logic.

Of course I would do a weights & balance prior to any flight especially one fully or nearly fully loaded and would stick to the guidelines for any slightly extreme manouveres based on the weights and balance calculations.

It seems bizzare to say the least thay an instructor has pretty much refused to 'demonstrate' or allow me to be familliarised of a fully laden PA28 performing a steep turn in the name of awareness/therefore safety. A steep turn is a manuovre that one would knowingly instigate during flight under the right conditions and therfore (IMHO) be practised and if I intend to do any flying fully laden then (W&B permitting) I do not see how a demonstration on my checkride be such a bad thing.

Now stalling is a situation that you would not be expected to knowingly enter in flight so obviously there is some logic in not practicing the full stall when near the W&B limits however slow flight IS a manouvre that one would possibly expect to do during a normal flight under the right conditions and therefore as my previous reasoning for the steep turns, should be demonstrated under qualified instruction.

As for the PAX being sick. If my PAX (a PPL holder) is prepared to come along and is aware of the maonuvres being taught then he/she should be/will prepared.

The strange thing is, this appears to be the opinion of one instructor at the school, I am aware of at least on other instructor at the same school who (during my PPL training) who would happily promote my views.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I am aware of at least on other instructor at the same school who (during my PPL training) who would happily promote my views.
Ask to fly with them, then !

G

[slim_slag]

In a nutshell, the checkride roughly equates to 4-5 hours of flying split roughly as follows (as explained to me by the school)

If you believe what you read, some people have gone from zero hours to first solo in less.

[shortstripper]

4-5 hours for a "standard" checkride sounds like a rip-off to me?

SS

[Genghis the Engineer]

I must admit I was assuming that was between Ppointing and his friend, not each. If not, then I agree.

G

[topcat450]

4 - 5 hours to go from a Tomahawk to a PA28 seems a little OTT to me too, especially as you've already got a reasonable no. of hours total

Also I see no reason why you can't have anyone in the back - I did parts of my PPL with another student in the back (admittedly a 172 not a PA28), swapping over after an hour or two but that was with me and them as students!

Try calling somewhere else if I were you. After all, it's your money.

[Chilli Monster]

4-5 hours - total rot and a rip-off as others have said.

I did my PPL on a PA38. It wasn't even a full one - 20 hours from start to GFT because it was a gliding conversion.

As soon as I had my licence I went to the states, got a US PPL issued on the basis of my UK one and went to a local flying school. They had mainly Cessnas, but I wanted to stick to a low wing so the only option was an Archer (180HP - a bit different from a Tommy ;)).

Total length of checkout - 1 hour in the air plus 45 minutes in the classroom going over the aircraft and U.S flying differences. They were happy to let me loose after that.

I think this is more to do with relieveing you and your friend of your hard earned cash than any safety / comfort reason :*

(To add further I did a check out on a C172 when I got back to the UK, which included being at Max Take-Off Weight - again, this was only an hour).

[dublinpilot]

The PA28 you're getting a check out on, isn't an Arrow by any chance?

If this was your first time with a wobbly prop, retractable undercarraige, and faster speed, then maybe 4 hours could be justified.

Otherwise, if you're current, about 2 hours would seem about right to me.

dp

[englishal]

Sounds like a bunch of nonsense, and an effort to bleed you for too much money.

We always did checkouts three up. There is nothing scary about stalling / being stalled with a PAX or as a PAX, whether its a 172 or PA28. (It was quite interesting as a rear passenger in a Seneca doing power on stalls. Facing rearward in the club seating with my feet on the other seat, the nose pitches up about 50° and it made for some great views of LA harbour 3000' below my feet ;)) Steep turns shouldn't be an issue, your mate is a PPL and knows what to expect. Nav is unnescessary in my opinion, and you'd both learn more if you double up....

Cheers

[pponting]

The plot thickens....

I went to the school this morning after my heated telephone call with an instructor last night. The conversation ended along the lines of

QFI - Well, if we are going to do it your way then, when you come in for your lesson tomorrow we will do an hour ground school. You can then take photocopies of the aircraft manual to take home and study. Then come back and book some airtime in the PA28....

ME - I have took the day off work tomorrow, if the WX is okay then I want to get up and fly, I have already studied the rotate speeds/approach speeds....

I arrived for my 10:30 slot at about 10:10am and was gutted... no, that is an understatement, I was totally pi**ed off when the instructor told me that he had cancelled my lesson because I mentioned the possibility of checking out other clubs. The conversation ended as above though, me insisting I wanted to fly if the wx was bad so there was NO mention of cancelling the lesson. If he thought I wanted to cancel the lesson, then he should have said "Are you wanting to cancel the lesson" in which case I would have said no.

Just so you are aware, I had booked my lesson with a different instructor (Lets call him Instructor A) whereas I was called by Instructor B informing me that he would be doing my lesson because Instructor A was not going to be in the following morning.

Anyway, friday morning after I found out it was cancelled he told me he had called instructor A 30 mins ago telling him that his lesson was off with me (do you smell a rat!!!) The instructor I was originally booked in for was now schedulded to do an RT exam at 10am, but I was told he couldn't do my flight because he wasn't going to be in...!

I told him (Instructor B) that I didn't really want to fly with him and he told me (and I quote)

"This is a business we are running here, you cannot just 'call up' and choose who you fly with" he told me that the school make the decision who flies with who....., rubbish!!! I pay the money and like any student, I choose the instructor I feel comfortable with, failing that I go elsewhere.

Anyway, I wasted a day's holiday from work to have them cancel my lesson for NO reason. In their pilots order book, it protects the school from cancellations by a 33% cancelation fee within 24 hours, it does not offer such protection to the students, especially in such incompetent circumstances.

I am going to write a letter of complaints to the school and WILL be invoicing them for wasting my time and money because of their incompetance. I doubt they will pay but that is what balifs are for :)

I have checked out another school next door (RavenAir, oops, hope that doesn't give any clues away :).....) and am likely to be joining their school after a quich checkout in their PA38's. Which seem far better maintained and cheaper.

I forgot to add, I am a PPL with about 85 hours, I am current, did 2.5 hours solo last week with 3 landings at different airfields so my currency has not lapsed.

[BeechNut]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but from a strictly regulatory standpoint, aren't intentional stalls (and spins) approved *only* if the aircraft is operated in the Utility Category? This would preclude the carriage of back-seat passengers during these manoeuvers.

While it is true that PA28 stalls are generally non-events, any aicraft can bite. And having spun a PA28-140 on numerous occasions (it was cleared for spins in the utility category), I would have to say that a PA28 spin is NOT a non-event, and is certainly, umm, more interesting than a C150 spin (though not quite as interesting as my Beech C23's spin characteristics). Moreover it is *not* cleared for spins with anyone in the back and taking the aircraft up to near the spin entry with someone in back is not a great idea. If memory serves it will tend to go into a flat spin with insufficient rudder for recovery. At least that's the urban legend in these parts. I've never cared to test the theory myself, finding spins with only the front seats occupied sufficiently entertaining.

As for being airsick perhaps I'm also conditioned by the fact that the most recent checkouts I've been involved with have been on my own aircraft, and I'm loathe to have to clean out the plane after someone upchucks and misses the bags...:yuk:

The load check part of the checkout does of course require someone in the back. With regards to observation, perhaps there is or isn't much to be gained, depends if there's an intercom in the back.

BeechNut.

[Chilli Monster]

Don't waste your time writing - it won't get you anywhere.

Just say nothing more and vote with your feet - go next door (or anywhere else for that matter).

[MLS-12D]

I am going to write a letter of complaints to the school and WILL be invoicing them for wasting my time and money because of their incompetance. I doubt they will pay but that is what balifs are forWell, if this is what you want to do, then go for it ... but it seems to me to be 'good time after bad'. Plus (fairly or unfairly) you'll develop a reputation as someone who is 'difficult' ... and aviation tends to be a very small community.

Excellent advice from Chilli Monster. When you run into unreasonable or unprofessional people, cut your losses and move on. There's a lot of wisdom in the old saying: 'if you wrestle with a pig, you just get dirty, and the pig enjoys it'.

[englishal]

'if you wrestle with a pig, you just get dirty, and the pig enjoys it'.

Never heard that one before...:} ....its a good saying though and I think I might start using it ;)

[MLS-12D]

It is advice that I give to any client who wishes to engage in litigation 'on principle'. There is a lot of truth in it!

Relevant links: here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0141002085/202-3821064-2118260) and here (http://www.doorcountycompass.com/allabout/theland/thresheree/page2.htm) (only in America!).

[pponting]

BeechNut

I never intended to intentially spin a PA28, I was merely stating that as the majority of my flying in a PA28 will be 3 or 4 up then I would prefer the majority of my training to be in the same configuration.

I asked the school why I could not be demonstrated slow flight with 4 up (and within the safety envelope), they said it is too dangerous, I said even within the defined safety envelope, they said yes and continued to explain how a PA28 with only 2 up got into an unrecoverable spin and both died. I said so is it too dangerous to fly 2 up in slow flight, they said no. My point is, if the w&b say it is safe to do a certain manouvre with a certain weight then I would like to have it demonstrated, if it is deemed unsafe then the 'envelope' should be narrowed.

This is along the same mentality as taking spin training out of the PPL syllabus. While I hate the thought of getting into a spin I would prefer to experience one under controlled conditions. I have now done this under controlled conditions and can tell you that I would probably NEVER get out of a spin in a Tomahawk if I had never experienced a spin, now, I feel like I would have a bloody good chance but am also more aware of avioding the stall to ensure I never get to the full spin because I know from experience that I would probably have trouble recovering. (I am contemplating aerobatic training this year purely for safety reasons, and maybe a little fun :) )

I said, what if I get checked out without being demonstrated slow flight fully loaded than take my family (4 of us) up for a flight then for some reason have to fly slow. They said you should not do slow flight with 4 up. I asked so, I can never go below 100kts? err, of course, approach is around 75kts. Can I go no slower than 75kts then? If so, how slow is safe? what does it feel like? etc.

What if my ASI fails, how do I know how safe to fly, by 'feel' they said, but I have never felt this under these circumstances?


We went round in circles as you can imagine. ..


I am a confindent PPL but do not want to pretend I know everything, far from it, if I have any questions (plenty) or doubts (a few) about anything I am happy to pay for instruction rather than just jump in and hope for the best. If an instructor cannot or will not show me when my request is perfectly acceptable and within the safety envelope of the plane then he/she should not be an instructor IMHO.

[BeechNut]

zerouali,

They let you spin a PA28-161 with someone in the back seat???

For that matter, they let you spin a PA28-161? Looking at my PA28-161 manual, it isn't even cleared for spins!!!

The Cherokee 140 I owned WAS cleared for spins, but most emphatically, NOT with anyone in the back seat. The aircraft had to be operated in the Utility Category for that.

BeechNut

[englishal]

If their instructors are not capable of monitoring you doing slow flight (say 55 kts or less) with passengers onboard, then in my opinion they are rubbish and you should go else where and be done with them. You'd have to manhandle a PA28 pretty badly to put it into a spin with an instructor onboard!

[Sensible]

Even without an instructor it's pretty difficult! The PA28 is the most docile aircraft that I've flown, more so than the PA38 which flips into a spin quite easily by comparison hence "traumahawk".

I rent aircraft from many different schools, mainly in the USA and always with a pax. and often with a different passenger and I always take them with me on the rental check out ride. I always provide a sick bag as insurance against being “pebledashed”. :yuk: The USA check ride includes full power on and power off stalls and steep turns and at least that way, both you and the passenger gets to learn if there are likely to be any problems during the rest of the flying. A check ride is pretty much as bad as it’s going to get for them and if they are sick, the instructor can take over the control whilst you pacify the casualty (hasn’t happened yet).

A couple of hours (total of 4 hours for two pilots) should be all that you need for “differences training” providing that you are “current”. And that would be for switching to a high wing too.

So far as the other mob are concerned, just let it go - you wont win! (I like the pig analogy) :} Complain with your feet – providing you haven’t paid up front – don’t ever pay up front!

[ThePirateKing]

pponting,

Just for a laugh, ask the school for their view of the CofG in a PA28-161 with 2 people in the front seats, none in the back, and each of full, tabs and 45 minutes fuel on board.

Then insist that you won't fly their aircraft WITHOUT somebody in the back. Ever. :)

Rgds,

TPK:ok:

[mazzy1026]

Only common sense would tell you that if you are to be flying with 3 pax then you want to know what it at least feels like to be fully loaded - I dont see a reason why you cant do this and it sounds like you have been told a load of old pony. It's a shame it ended up like that with the flying school you have been with for so long, but it is your well earned money that matters and the only way to complain (and rub it in a little) would be to move next door :ok:

[BEagle]

Some years ago (rather a lot, actually), with a grand total of 35 hours all on Cessna 150s, a shiny new PPL and not having flown at all for 11 months, I arrived at a totally unfamiliar aerodrome to 'convert' onto a Cherokee 140. I did a single 1 hr flight, then a 10 minute solo - and that was all.

You have over twice the total I had, plus the benefit of more comprehensive training and you are also in current flying practice.

I therefore fail to compehend how your Cherokee conversion could conceivably take more than 1-2 hours at the absolute maximum.

[maggioneato]

My checkout from flying C150 and C172 to PA28 was 55 mins logged, at the same airfield as pponting with 103 hours P1. I had flown in the back while someone else did his checkout which in my opinion helped considerably. Maybe that's why they don't want you flying in the back, it will reduce the amount of cash they can sting you for.
Sounds like a short walk is indicated. Snag is, it involves yet more membership fees.
It's not easy to move flying schools and all you are familiar with, but I had to do it when management changed where I was, so it wasn't an option to stay. Hope you get on ok.

[homeguard]

What is the purpose of the checkout?

You are a qualified pilot. The checkout is not a training flight! The purpose is to give you the opportunity to discover before flying PIC the full operating characteristics of the aircraft and to know it's best operation - in accordance with the Pilots Operating Manual. For you to have the fullest knowledge this should be practiced throughout the whole of the a/c permitted operating envelope.

The time it takes is the time it takes. It is quite proper for the school to insist that the flight is lawful. But if the aircraft is within the c of g for the exercise i would have no problem having another qualified pilot in the back. I would not want a non flyer when we intended to do relatively high G manouervers such as in steep turns and possibly negative G with stall recoveries.

I find that it is very rare for a current pilot on such as a PA28 to do more than a single upper air review plus a circuit detail to complete. If done in one flight 1:30hr would normally be max.

Who is saying all that you have reported? Does the CFI know what is being said to you. If it is the fancy of a single FI without justification then the school shouldn't suffer. The CFI should be made aware and may resolve the issue.

If it is the policy of the school then as others have said you have a pair of feet.

[pponting]

I am not sure if the CFI is aware or not, I guess he has heard 'their' side of it.

I did ask to speak with the owner (Director) of the flying school, I was told he was too busy. I told the desk that I will be leaving the school if the director would not give me 5 minutes sometime that day, I was told to leave my number and he will call me sometime for an appointment! They allowed me to walk out knowing I would not come back so I guess I know where I stand.

They can shove their school were the sun don't shine if I do not get a call with a sincere appology (at least).

I must admit, I have been warned about their penny pinching antics for at least 3 years. I have been stung for incorrect bills (in their favour) many times. Having additional landings added onto my bill weeks later, attempting to charge me twice for membership and even once claiming I hadn't paid for a full hours flight (they did apologise for the last one when I proved them wrong, again!)

[A and C]

I'v come to this thread a little late and all that I would have said about this "flying school" has all ready been said and you have reached the right conclution.

Now can we please have a hint or two as to who the rip off merchants are ? this way other people will not have to climb the same learning curve and who knows the school may mend it's ways ?!

[homeguard]

I cannot understand how any director can be too busy to see a customer for they are a director of nothing without the customer.

However, it is the CFI that you need to see for it is he/she that will decide training and operating policy. The director will only refer.

[pponting]

I'v come to this thread a little late and all that I would have said about this "flying school" has all ready been said and you have reached the right conclution.

Now can we please have a hint or two as to who the rip off merchants are ? this way other people will not have to climb the same learning curve and who knows the school may mend it's ways ?!
It would not be right to outright name and shame a flying school without them being able to defend themselves here. I will be informing them of this thread however, tonight I have just been informed by my 'new' Liverpool based flying school/club, Ravenair next door (hint hint), that they will check me out in their PA28 and it will take as long as it takes. He said that based on my flying (I just did a PA38 checkflight with him) that it is likely to take no more that 1 hour or 1.5 hours but all depends on the flight at the time.

[pponting]

I cannot understand how any director can be too busy to see a customer for they are a director of nothing without the customer.
To be totally honest, I am not 100% sure the director actually made the decision not to speak to me, I got the feeling this was possibly a fabrication of the truth.

[mazzy1026]

Actually reminds me of when I first spoke to the said school - they were extremely insistent on the fact that it would take much longer than 45 hours to gain the PPL. Now, I know it is very rare to complete in 45, but it seemed to be drilled into me quite a bit. Is this another money grabber or do they "ensure the fullest possible training" possible?

[High Wing Drifter]

Mazzy,

I don't believe that. I think it is possible to complete in 45 hours. I don't wish to make it sound like a competition, but I think it is healthy to aim for realistic targets. It is very easy to keep racking the hours up.

[Yorks.ppl]

The Pirate King made a good point, In the PA28 I fly, with me and 1 pax + tabs I need 100lbs of ballast in the back seat.
I did all my ppl training that way inc slow flight, stalls etc
wonder what they make of that.

[Genghis the Engineer]

In the PA28 I fly, with me and 1 pax + tabs I need 100lbs of ballast in the back seat.
Are you sure you've got the W&CG right? I've flown several PA28s in that format, and none have ever come all that close to the forward limit - unless you and your pax both weigh about 18 stone?

G

[Yorks.ppl]

:O
I am certainly a touch on the large side, so was my instructor
I spent ages doing the calculations and with the two of us this was the only config. that worked. even at that it put us at virtually MAUW.
Interestingly tho my instructor and examiner were happy to fly with or without the ballast.

[ThePirateKing]

Yorks,

That would be my (hiterto ignored) point. I'm not that large (12 - 13st) and I would guess my erstwhile instructor was about the same. I can't remember whether fuel is forward or aft of the normal CofG range - that is, whether the situation is worse with full or nearly empty tanks.

Either way, the PA28-161 is operating very close to its limits with no ballast (walking or otherwise) in the back. This never stops them instructing/testing in them though, does it?

TPK:ok:

[S-Works]

wowser 5hrs for a checkout, somebody is getting ripped off. Most checkouts I have done were stalls, steep turns and back for some circuits usually half an hour at most.

What on earth do they think they have to teach you as a qualified pilot that will take 5hrs.

Unless you are really crap and they just dont want to tell you!!!! :p

[Yorks.ppl]

TPK
Indeed not, due to various confusions on the day of my GST I had no ballast in the back, I even told my examiner who still didnt ask to see any weight and ballance calculations!
We did the GST and I passed dispite being outside the envelope.
I found though that I tended to land a little flat, the examiner pointed this out and said it was probably due to the Cof G being wrong.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just a thought, you've got a baggage compartment in the PA28 which is rather further back, that means you can get away with less ballast for the same CG effect.

G

[Yorks.ppl]

thx genghis, I will check that out, it might save my weary arms:ok:

[ThePirateKing]

Genghis,

I prefer to tie a small furry animal to the empenage for maximum lever-arm effect! :)

But the point is that the school are getting all arsey about W&B, etc., but almost certainly flying their aircraft out of balance 95% of the time anyway!

TPK :ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well, if you have good reason to believe that the aircraft has been flown out of the forward CG limits, there's a significant risk that the tailplane has been consequently overstressed. Make an appropriate entry in the CAP 398 airframe logbook to that effect, and I'll put good money on that getting their attention.

G

[Yorks.ppl]

Genghis,
Good answer:ok:

I reckon TPK is right though and certainly where I learned to fly, they are very relaxed about weight and ballance, this casual attitude is passed on to students. Perhaps if they fly only PA28s no problems will ensue but there may be types out there that are a good deal less tolerant of W&B errors.

[pponting]

I did my PPL checkride at the new school (Ravenair, Liverpool) and passed.

It is only early days but for those interested, here are my views.

The pre-flight brief was excellent, I can honestly say that in my 4 years 'next door' I have never, repeat NEVER, had a pre-flight brief in such a professional and detailed way. They were unaware they were taking business from next door so this was not the reason before anyone suggests :)

I had some great instructors during my PPL, but due to the fast instructor turnaround I guess I would have completed my PPL in at least 10 hours LESS with the instructor at Ravenair without compromise to safety or knowledge.

The aircraft were pristine compared to next door.

Prices work out about £5 per hour DEARER at Ravenair but this would easily be offset but the possibly better briefing and certainy worth the extra £5 for the nicer aircraft.

Obviously these are early days but I am getting a real good feeling about the move, I am still a current member next door so may use this to my advantage if/when availability at Ravenair is limited, however, I doubt I will renew my membership.