PA28 Checkout
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Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Ormskirk, Lancashire.
PA28 Checkout - am I being shafted?
Just wondering if anyone has any views on this.
I am a PPL with a tad short of 90 hours training on the Tomahawk. I want to checkout on the PA28 as I want to carry more PAX. I have a friend who is at the same level as me and she also wants to checkout in the PA28. We have decided to do the checkout sort of jointly in parallel. The idea being she sits in the back as a 'silent passenger' during my checkout and I do the same when she has hers. The reasoning is that it 'loads up' the plane to a level that is likely to be used and also gives this 'silent passenger' additional experience.
The problem is the flying school have almost outright blasted this as a terrible idea. I will not go into detail but will list a few of their reasons for the bad idea.
In a nutshell, the checkride roughly equates to 4-5 hours of flying split roughly as follows (as explained to me by the school)
3-4 hours two up (me + instruction) doing all the handling, slow flight, steep turns, nav, PFL's etc.
1 circuit fully loaded MTOW to give me an idea of what the handling characteristics are like fully loaded.
My argument is that I am only likely to fly 4 up in the PA28 and would therefore prefer (brave PAX willing) to do 3-4 hours loaded up and they finish of maybe with a circuit or two with a lighter load and solo. As the majority of my PA28 flying will be 3+ up then I would assume it better to be trained this way. If I planned a 2 up trip I would probably take the cheaper and more readily availably Tommy.
I told the instructor that I would prefer my first dealing with a possible steep turn or near stall not be with me wife and children aboard but with a QFI and ballast. He told me that it was to dangerous to do all the other practice fully laden….!
Any view appreciated.
I am a PPL with a tad short of 90 hours training on the Tomahawk. I want to checkout on the PA28 as I want to carry more PAX. I have a friend who is at the same level as me and she also wants to checkout in the PA28. We have decided to do the checkout sort of jointly in parallel. The idea being she sits in the back as a 'silent passenger' during my checkout and I do the same when she has hers. The reasoning is that it 'loads up' the plane to a level that is likely to be used and also gives this 'silent passenger' additional experience.
The problem is the flying school have almost outright blasted this as a terrible idea. I will not go into detail but will list a few of their reasons for the bad idea.
In a nutshell, the checkride roughly equates to 4-5 hours of flying split roughly as follows (as explained to me by the school)
3-4 hours two up (me + instruction) doing all the handling, slow flight, steep turns, nav, PFL's etc.
1 circuit fully loaded MTOW to give me an idea of what the handling characteristics are like fully loaded.
My argument is that I am only likely to fly 4 up in the PA28 and would therefore prefer (brave PAX willing) to do 3-4 hours loaded up and they finish of maybe with a circuit or two with a lighter load and solo. As the majority of my PA28 flying will be 3+ up then I would assume it better to be trained this way. If I planned a 2 up trip I would probably take the cheaper and more readily availably Tommy.
I told the instructor that I would prefer my first dealing with a possible steep turn or near stall not be with me wife and children aboard but with a QFI and ballast. He told me that it was to dangerous to do all the other practice fully laden….!
Any view appreciated.
Last edited by pponting; 25th February 2005 at 20:13.
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From: Canada (Southeastern Québec)
The PA28 is not cleared for spins with anyone in the back seat; there are CofG issues that can make the spin unrecoverable. So it would not be a good idea to teach spin recognition with anyone occupying the rear (some models, and some options within a specific model, for example those with a ventilation blower in the tail, aren't cleared for spins at all).
And since a badly handled stall can turn into a spin (although admittedly, based on my PA28 experience, in which I have a couple of hundred hours, making it spin takes some effort), it would not be a good idea to practise stalls with the back seat occupied.
The issue of someone in the backseat upchucking-even an experienced pilot-is not to be neglected when doing steep turns, etc. ad nauseam. When I did my PA28 checkout many years ago (on a -181, I ended up owning a late-model PA28-140E), I did the full-up thing only near the end of the checkout doing circuits and bumps, with one friend and one air cadet in the back seat, both of whom exited somewhat green in colour due to the hot weather and turbulence, and (at the time) low-hour PPL ham-fisting it around the circuit. I've also been the ballast in the back seat for a ham-fisted pilot checking out on a Sierra (which he eventually-and non-fatally-crashed), during circuits and even though I can do modest aerobatics without getting sick, it was NOT a pleasant experience.
That said, the PA28 is not mysterious to fly; don't know which model you're planning to check out on, but you've already got low-wing experience (in a Traumahawk no less!), so I really think the instructor is wisest on this as there's little to be gained from observation. Moreover, if your friend wants to be checked out as well, it's not going to happen in the back seat for her, but in the left one. We're not talking a procedure-intensive aircraft here like a transport-category aircraft where just observing procedures from the jumpseat would be beneficial. The procedures in the PA28 will be largely similar to the Traumahawk. The only real "experience" she'll gain back there is being an extra set of eyes checking out for traffic.
That said my last check-out was when I bought my current Sundowner; but insurance only asked for a summary checkout, and the CFI that delivered the plane to me checked out my flying buddy and myself as we did a multi-stage trip to fly him home. We didn't do stalls or things like that; I had done them and full spins anyway at the pre-buy test flight, with an instructor.
Mike
And since a badly handled stall can turn into a spin (although admittedly, based on my PA28 experience, in which I have a couple of hundred hours, making it spin takes some effort), it would not be a good idea to practise stalls with the back seat occupied.
The issue of someone in the backseat upchucking-even an experienced pilot-is not to be neglected when doing steep turns, etc. ad nauseam. When I did my PA28 checkout many years ago (on a -181, I ended up owning a late-model PA28-140E), I did the full-up thing only near the end of the checkout doing circuits and bumps, with one friend and one air cadet in the back seat, both of whom exited somewhat green in colour due to the hot weather and turbulence, and (at the time) low-hour PPL ham-fisting it around the circuit. I've also been the ballast in the back seat for a ham-fisted pilot checking out on a Sierra (which he eventually-and non-fatally-crashed), during circuits and even though I can do modest aerobatics without getting sick, it was NOT a pleasant experience.
That said, the PA28 is not mysterious to fly; don't know which model you're planning to check out on, but you've already got low-wing experience (in a Traumahawk no less!), so I really think the instructor is wisest on this as there's little to be gained from observation. Moreover, if your friend wants to be checked out as well, it's not going to happen in the back seat for her, but in the left one. We're not talking a procedure-intensive aircraft here like a transport-category aircraft where just observing procedures from the jumpseat would be beneficial. The procedures in the PA28 will be largely similar to the Traumahawk. The only real "experience" she'll gain back there is being an extra set of eyes checking out for traffic.
That said my last check-out was when I bought my current Sundowner; but insurance only asked for a summary checkout, and the CFI that delivered the plane to me checked out my flying buddy and myself as we did a multi-stage trip to fly him home. We didn't do stalls or things like that; I had done them and full spins anyway at the pre-buy test flight, with an instructor.
Mike
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PPonting
It is the school's aeroplane, so I guess that they can dictate SOPs.
However, I have done most of the things that you mention with pax in the back, during training and that obviously was not considered a problem by the school I was flying with.
I think that your idea to fly the PA28 at heavy weights is sensible - it does handle a little differently, although not dramatically so. Also, the 850fpm rate of climb that you could get out of a lightly loaded Archer will be reduced to crica 500fpm and it is no bad thing to experience that under instruction, before you go out alone.
You will find, in general terms, it is rather easier to handle than a Tommy and is a very docile platform for touring.
I disagree, respectfully, with Beechnut. No observation for low hour pilots is ever a waste of time, there is much to be learned from watching others being taught.
It is the school's aeroplane, so I guess that they can dictate SOPs.
However, I have done most of the things that you mention with pax in the back, during training and that obviously was not considered a problem by the school I was flying with.
I think that your idea to fly the PA28 at heavy weights is sensible - it does handle a little differently, although not dramatically so. Also, the 850fpm rate of climb that you could get out of a lightly loaded Archer will be reduced to crica 500fpm and it is no bad thing to experience that under instruction, before you go out alone.
You will find, in general terms, it is rather easier to handle than a Tommy and is a very docile platform for touring.
I disagree, respectfully, with Beechnut. No observation for low hour pilots is ever a waste of time, there is much to be learned from watching others being taught.
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From: UK
It strikes me that the school / rental operation is being a tad OTT here, but maybe erring slightly on the side of caution.
Specifically:-
- You aren't asking to fly with A.N.Other pax in the back seat, you are asking to fly with another PPL. In that position they should know enough to realise any risks and accept them, and also to handle any airsickness issues.
- Nav? Apart from flying a little bit faster, and a slightly poorer view out of the window, I fail to see any significant difference between navigating the PA38 that you are used to, and this PA28.
- There is absolutely nothing even faintly scarey or unpleasant about stalls, low speed, steep turns etc. in a PA28 - it is one of the most docile aeroplanes I've ever flown. I'd personally be quite happy practicing these with my Granny in the back (mind you, I have a very remarkable Granny!).
- If an FI has a problem doing a stall or 60° banked turn in a PA28 at MAUW, they have a serious confidence problem as an instructor. I'd find another instructor.
- Nobody can have too much time in the air, even if it's only sat in the back watching the bloke in the front being checked out.
Okay, yes, it's their aeroplane and they are setting the rules. Also, by any post-WW1 standard your 90 hours is low experience, but nonetheless I'm unconvinced that this degree of precaution is necessary or appropriate.
Plus, it's a heck of a lot easier putting a spare pilot in the back than lugging around and securing ballast bags, always assuming that the school have any.
So, PPonting I personally think your own view and approach are entirely reasonable, probably more so than those of the school.
Of course, it may be that the school know you and don't think that you can fly for toffee - in which case they should just say so !
G
N.B. On a practical point, I've earned my living on and off over about 15 years as a Flight Test Engineer, which often involves sitting in the back/right of an aeroplane whilst a test pilot does their best to make me airsick, and a few have come incredibly close to succeeding. If I may offer a few hints here: (1) don't eat for a few hours before flying, (2) keep the cabin temperature down and fresh air flow up, (3) if unsure of yourself as a pax, there's no shame in taking a non-drowsy type seasickness pill a few hours before flying [do check the instructions], (4) If in doubt do something active (such as taking notes) and keep your head out of the cockpit as far as you can, and (5) take a sealable sick-bag anyhow - better still, two!
Specifically:-
- You aren't asking to fly with A.N.Other pax in the back seat, you are asking to fly with another PPL. In that position they should know enough to realise any risks and accept them, and also to handle any airsickness issues.
- Nav? Apart from flying a little bit faster, and a slightly poorer view out of the window, I fail to see any significant difference between navigating the PA38 that you are used to, and this PA28.
- There is absolutely nothing even faintly scarey or unpleasant about stalls, low speed, steep turns etc. in a PA28 - it is one of the most docile aeroplanes I've ever flown. I'd personally be quite happy practicing these with my Granny in the back (mind you, I have a very remarkable Granny!).
- If an FI has a problem doing a stall or 60° banked turn in a PA28 at MAUW, they have a serious confidence problem as an instructor. I'd find another instructor.
- Nobody can have too much time in the air, even if it's only sat in the back watching the bloke in the front being checked out.
Okay, yes, it's their aeroplane and they are setting the rules. Also, by any post-WW1 standard your 90 hours is low experience, but nonetheless I'm unconvinced that this degree of precaution is necessary or appropriate.
Plus, it's a heck of a lot easier putting a spare pilot in the back than lugging around and securing ballast bags, always assuming that the school have any.
So, PPonting I personally think your own view and approach are entirely reasonable, probably more so than those of the school.
Of course, it may be that the school know you and don't think that you can fly for toffee - in which case they should just say so !
G
N.B. On a practical point, I've earned my living on and off over about 15 years as a Flight Test Engineer, which often involves sitting in the back/right of an aeroplane whilst a test pilot does their best to make me airsick, and a few have come incredibly close to succeeding. If I may offer a few hints here: (1) don't eat for a few hours before flying, (2) keep the cabin temperature down and fresh air flow up, (3) if unsure of yourself as a pax, there's no shame in taking a non-drowsy type seasickness pill a few hours before flying [do check the instructions], (4) If in doubt do something active (such as taking notes) and keep your head out of the cockpit as far as you can, and (5) take a sealable sick-bag anyhow - better still, two!
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 25th February 2005 at 05:25.
PPruNaholic!
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From: Buckinghamshire
My last three club-checks at RAF Benson have been done in a PA28 with a passenger in the back - no reason why this can't be done.
I doubt spinning is the reason: we aren't allowed to spin them at all.
Andy
I doubt spinning is the reason: we aren't allowed to spin them at all.
Andy
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Ormskirk, Lancashire.
BeechNut
While I see what you are saying, I really do not understand the logic.
Of course I would do a weights & balance prior to any flight especially one fully or nearly fully loaded and would stick to the guidelines for any slightly extreme manouveres based on the weights and balance calculations.
It seems bizzare to say the least thay an instructor has pretty much refused to 'demonstrate' or allow me to be familliarised of a fully laden PA28 performing a steep turn in the name of awareness/therefore safety. A steep turn is a manuovre that one would knowingly instigate during flight under the right conditions and therfore (IMHO) be practised and if I intend to do any flying fully laden then (W&B permitting) I do not see how a demonstration on my checkride be such a bad thing.
Now stalling is a situation that you would not be expected to knowingly enter in flight so obviously there is some logic in not practicing the full stall when near the W&B limits however slow flight IS a manouvre that one would possibly expect to do during a normal flight under the right conditions and therefore as my previous reasoning for the steep turns, should be demonstrated under qualified instruction.
As for the PAX being sick. If my PAX (a PPL holder) is prepared to come along and is aware of the maonuvres being taught then he/she should be/will prepared.
The strange thing is, this appears to be the opinion of one instructor at the school, I am aware of at least on other instructor at the same school who (during my PPL training) who would happily promote my views.
While I see what you are saying, I really do not understand the logic.
Of course I would do a weights & balance prior to any flight especially one fully or nearly fully loaded and would stick to the guidelines for any slightly extreme manouveres based on the weights and balance calculations.
It seems bizzare to say the least thay an instructor has pretty much refused to 'demonstrate' or allow me to be familliarised of a fully laden PA28 performing a steep turn in the name of awareness/therefore safety. A steep turn is a manuovre that one would knowingly instigate during flight under the right conditions and therfore (IMHO) be practised and if I intend to do any flying fully laden then (W&B permitting) I do not see how a demonstration on my checkride be such a bad thing.
Now stalling is a situation that you would not be expected to knowingly enter in flight so obviously there is some logic in not practicing the full stall when near the W&B limits however slow flight IS a manouvre that one would possibly expect to do during a normal flight under the right conditions and therefore as my previous reasoning for the steep turns, should be demonstrated under qualified instruction.
As for the PAX being sick. If my PAX (a PPL holder) is prepared to come along and is aware of the maonuvres being taught then he/she should be/will prepared.
The strange thing is, this appears to be the opinion of one instructor at the school, I am aware of at least on other instructor at the same school who (during my PPL training) who would happily promote my views.
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
In a nutshell, the checkride roughly equates to 4-5 hours of flying split roughly as follows (as explained to me by the school)
If you believe what you read, some people have gone from zero hours to first solo in less.
If you believe what you read, some people have gone from zero hours to first solo in less.
Suave yet Shallow
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From: half way between the gutter and the stars.
4 - 5 hours to go from a Tomahawk to a PA28 seems a little OTT to me too, especially as you've already got a reasonable no. of hours total
Also I see no reason why you can't have anyone in the back - I did parts of my PPL with another student in the back (admittedly a 172 not a PA28), swapping over after an hour or two but that was with me and them as students!
Try calling somewhere else if I were you. After all, it's your money.
Also I see no reason why you can't have anyone in the back - I did parts of my PPL with another student in the back (admittedly a 172 not a PA28), swapping over after an hour or two but that was with me and them as students!
Try calling somewhere else if I were you. After all, it's your money.
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From: Anywhere
4-5 hours - total rot and a rip-off as others have said.
I did my PPL on a PA38. It wasn't even a full one - 20 hours from start to GFT because it was a gliding conversion.
As soon as I had my licence I went to the states, got a US PPL issued on the basis of my UK one and went to a local flying school. They had mainly Cessnas, but I wanted to stick to a low wing so the only option was an Archer (180HP - a bit different from a Tommy
).
Total length of checkout - 1 hour in the air plus 45 minutes in the classroom going over the aircraft and U.S flying differences. They were happy to let me loose after that.
I think this is more to do with relieveing you and your friend of your hard earned cash than any safety / comfort reason
(To add further I did a check out on a C172 when I got back to the UK, which included being at Max Take-Off Weight - again, this was only an hour).
I did my PPL on a PA38. It wasn't even a full one - 20 hours from start to GFT because it was a gliding conversion.
As soon as I had my licence I went to the states, got a US PPL issued on the basis of my UK one and went to a local flying school. They had mainly Cessnas, but I wanted to stick to a low wing so the only option was an Archer (180HP - a bit different from a Tommy
).Total length of checkout - 1 hour in the air plus 45 minutes in the classroom going over the aircraft and U.S flying differences. They were happy to let me loose after that.
I think this is more to do with relieveing you and your friend of your hard earned cash than any safety / comfort reason
(To add further I did a check out on a C172 when I got back to the UK, which included being at Max Take-Off Weight - again, this was only an hour).
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From: Dublin
The PA28 you're getting a check out on, isn't an Arrow by any chance?
If this was your first time with a wobbly prop, retractable undercarraige, and faster speed, then maybe 4 hours could be justified.
Otherwise, if you're current, about 2 hours would seem about right to me.
dp
If this was your first time with a wobbly prop, retractable undercarraige, and faster speed, then maybe 4 hours could be justified.
Otherwise, if you're current, about 2 hours would seem about right to me.
dp
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From: 75N 16E
Sounds like a bunch of nonsense, and an effort to bleed you for too much money.
We always did checkouts three up. There is nothing scary about stalling / being stalled with a PAX or as a PAX, whether its a 172 or PA28. (It was quite interesting as a rear passenger in a Seneca doing power on stalls. Facing rearward in the club seating with my feet on the other seat, the nose pitches up about 50° and it made for some great views of LA harbour 3000' below my feet) Steep turns shouldn't be an issue, your mate is a PPL and knows what to expect. Nav is unnescessary in my opinion, and you'd both learn more if you double up....
Cheers
We always did checkouts three up. There is nothing scary about stalling / being stalled with a PAX or as a PAX, whether its a 172 or PA28. (It was quite interesting as a rear passenger in a Seneca doing power on stalls. Facing rearward in the club seating with my feet on the other seat, the nose pitches up about 50° and it made for some great views of LA harbour 3000' below my feet
) Steep turns shouldn't be an issue, your mate is a PPL and knows what to expect. Nav is unnescessary in my opinion, and you'd both learn more if you double up....Cheers
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Ormskirk, Lancashire.
The plot thickens....
I went to the school this morning after my heated telephone call with an instructor last night. The conversation ended along the lines of
QFI - Well, if we are going to do it your way then, when you come in for your lesson tomorrow we will do an hour ground school. You can then take photocopies of the aircraft manual to take home and study. Then come back and book some airtime in the PA28....
ME - I have took the day off work tomorrow, if the WX is okay then I want to get up and fly, I have already studied the rotate speeds/approach speeds....
I arrived for my 10:30 slot at about 10:10am and was gutted... no, that is an understatement, I was totally pi**ed off when the instructor told me that he had cancelled my lesson because I mentioned the possibility of checking out other clubs. The conversation ended as above though, me insisting I wanted to fly if the wx was bad so there was NO mention of cancelling the lesson. If he thought I wanted to cancel the lesson, then he should have said "Are you wanting to cancel the lesson" in which case I would have said no.
Just so you are aware, I had booked my lesson with a different instructor (Lets call him Instructor A) whereas I was called by Instructor B informing me that he would be doing my lesson because Instructor A was not going to be in the following morning.
Anyway, friday morning after I found out it was cancelled he told me he had called instructor A 30 mins ago telling him that his lesson was off with me (do you smell a rat!!!) The instructor I was originally booked in for was now schedulded to do an RT exam at 10am, but I was told he couldn't do my flight because he wasn't going to be in...!
I told him (Instructor B) that I didn't really want to fly with him and he told me (and I quote)
"This is a business we are running here, you cannot just 'call up' and choose who you fly with" he told me that the school make the decision who flies with who....., rubbish!!! I pay the money and like any student, I choose the instructor I feel comfortable with, failing that I go elsewhere.
Anyway, I wasted a day's holiday from work to have them cancel my lesson for NO reason. In their pilots order book, it protects the school from cancellations by a 33% cancelation fee within 24 hours, it does not offer such protection to the students, especially in such incompetent circumstances.
I am going to write a letter of complaints to the school and WILL be invoicing them for wasting my time and money because of their incompetance. I doubt they will pay but that is what balifs are for
I have checked out another school next door (RavenAir, oops, hope that doesn't give any clues away.....) and am likely to be joining their school after a quich checkout in their PA38's. Which seem far better maintained and cheaper.
I forgot to add, I am a PPL with about 85 hours, I am current, did 2.5 hours solo last week with 3 landings at different airfields so my currency has not lapsed.
I went to the school this morning after my heated telephone call with an instructor last night. The conversation ended along the lines of
QFI - Well, if we are going to do it your way then, when you come in for your lesson tomorrow we will do an hour ground school. You can then take photocopies of the aircraft manual to take home and study. Then come back and book some airtime in the PA28....
ME - I have took the day off work tomorrow, if the WX is okay then I want to get up and fly, I have already studied the rotate speeds/approach speeds....
I arrived for my 10:30 slot at about 10:10am and was gutted... no, that is an understatement, I was totally pi**ed off when the instructor told me that he had cancelled my lesson because I mentioned the possibility of checking out other clubs. The conversation ended as above though, me insisting I wanted to fly if the wx was bad so there was NO mention of cancelling the lesson. If he thought I wanted to cancel the lesson, then he should have said "Are you wanting to cancel the lesson" in which case I would have said no.
Just so you are aware, I had booked my lesson with a different instructor (Lets call him Instructor A) whereas I was called by Instructor B informing me that he would be doing my lesson because Instructor A was not going to be in the following morning.
Anyway, friday morning after I found out it was cancelled he told me he had called instructor A 30 mins ago telling him that his lesson was off with me (do you smell a rat!!!) The instructor I was originally booked in for was now schedulded to do an RT exam at 10am, but I was told he couldn't do my flight because he wasn't going to be in...!
I told him (Instructor B) that I didn't really want to fly with him and he told me (and I quote)
"This is a business we are running here, you cannot just 'call up' and choose who you fly with" he told me that the school make the decision who flies with who....., rubbish!!! I pay the money and like any student, I choose the instructor I feel comfortable with, failing that I go elsewhere.
Anyway, I wasted a day's holiday from work to have them cancel my lesson for NO reason. In their pilots order book, it protects the school from cancellations by a 33% cancelation fee within 24 hours, it does not offer such protection to the students, especially in such incompetent circumstances.
I am going to write a letter of complaints to the school and WILL be invoicing them for wasting my time and money because of their incompetance. I doubt they will pay but that is what balifs are for
I have checked out another school next door (RavenAir, oops, hope that doesn't give any clues away
.....) and am likely to be joining their school after a quich checkout in their PA38's. Which seem far better maintained and cheaper.I forgot to add, I am a PPL with about 85 hours, I am current, did 2.5 hours solo last week with 3 landings at different airfields so my currency has not lapsed.
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Canada (Southeastern Québec)
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but from a strictly regulatory standpoint, aren't intentional stalls (and spins) approved *only* if the aircraft is operated in the Utility Category? This would preclude the carriage of back-seat passengers during these manoeuvers.
While it is true that PA28 stalls are generally non-events, any aicraft can bite. And having spun a PA28-140 on numerous occasions (it was cleared for spins in the utility category), I would have to say that a PA28 spin is NOT a non-event, and is certainly, umm, more interesting than a C150 spin (though not quite as interesting as my Beech C23's spin characteristics). Moreover it is *not* cleared for spins with anyone in the back and taking the aircraft up to near the spin entry with someone in back is not a great idea. If memory serves it will tend to go into a flat spin with insufficient rudder for recovery. At least that's the urban legend in these parts. I've never cared to test the theory myself, finding spins with only the front seats occupied sufficiently entertaining.
As for being airsick perhaps I'm also conditioned by the fact that the most recent checkouts I've been involved with have been on my own aircraft, and I'm loathe to have to clean out the plane after someone upchucks and misses the bags...
The load check part of the checkout does of course require someone in the back. With regards to observation, perhaps there is or isn't much to be gained, depends if there's an intercom in the back.
BeechNut.
While it is true that PA28 stalls are generally non-events, any aicraft can bite. And having spun a PA28-140 on numerous occasions (it was cleared for spins in the utility category), I would have to say that a PA28 spin is NOT a non-event, and is certainly, umm, more interesting than a C150 spin (though not quite as interesting as my Beech C23's spin characteristics). Moreover it is *not* cleared for spins with anyone in the back and taking the aircraft up to near the spin entry with someone in back is not a great idea. If memory serves it will tend to go into a flat spin with insufficient rudder for recovery. At least that's the urban legend in these parts. I've never cared to test the theory myself, finding spins with only the front seats occupied sufficiently entertaining.
As for being airsick perhaps I'm also conditioned by the fact that the most recent checkouts I've been involved with have been on my own aircraft, and I'm loathe to have to clean out the plane after someone upchucks and misses the bags...
The load check part of the checkout does of course require someone in the back. With regards to observation, perhaps there is or isn't much to be gained, depends if there's an intercom in the back.
BeechNut.
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Canada
I am going to write a letter of complaints to the school and WILL be invoicing them for wasting my time and money because of their incompetance. I doubt they will pay but that is what balifs are for
Excellent advice from Chilli Monster. When you run into unreasonable or unprofessional people, cut your losses and move on. There's a lot of wisdom in the old saying: 'if you wrestle with a pig, you just get dirty, and the pig enjoys it'.