London ACC Swanwick night closed [Archive]

Arkady

12th Feb 2005, 18:50

"Don't worry - we'll have enough staff by 2007 !"

The "destination" in question doesn't mention the number of staff. Our new management do seem to have done their sums and recognise that they can't do anything about the numbers in such a short time scale. They are not talking about more resources, they're talking about using the resources they have differently. Individual rosters, standby duties, rostered overtime, flexible shift times ...............any more for any more?

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

12th Feb 2005, 19:07

<<Our new management do seem to have done their sums and recognise that they can't do anything about the numbers in such a short time scale.>>

"Old" management weren't much cop either... :-)

DC10RealMan

13th Feb 2005, 17:14

Arkady refers to individual rosters, compulsory overtime, standby duties etc and I have to agree with him. We could on the other hand stand up for ourselves and refuse. We could start by being less greedy and not clamouring to do AAVAs.

ifaxu

13th Feb 2005, 18:50

what would we gain by "standing up for ourselves". It would result in more delays and not increase staff numbers. I thought we were moving away from the attitude of previous years and towards a more enlightened view of what we are all trying to achieve.
If some people feel able to work a little more by doing AAVA's then why not trust their judgement as fellow professionals rather than making condescending remarks about their choice to do them.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

13th Feb 2005, 18:59

I don't think professionalism comes into it, ifaxu. Way back in the days of Long Hours Gratuity for weekend working there were always the greedy guys who would volunteer to work weekends like they were going out of fashion. More sensible people, like me, used to queue up to give them their extra work (and money!).

Management ALWAYS wins in ATC... always have done, do now, and always will do UNTIL the ATCOs say enough is enough..

ifaxu

13th Feb 2005, 19:02

excellent a condescending reply to my post. It surely is not about winning or losing but doing the best job we can now with limited resources whilst still making sure we strive to improve the staffing situation.

Air.Farce.1

13th Feb 2005, 19:29

Why dont we call it OVERTIME like every other company?
Or are we ashamed and disguise it as some fancy other name?

Frankly it stinks of class snobbery !

:*

ifaxu

13th Feb 2005, 19:35

Oh how charming! A poor person frequenting our jolly little forum. Now be a good fellow and fetch me my headset, I have AAVA's to attend to.;)

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

13th Feb 2005, 19:39

ifaxu... Nothing condescending (note the cunning correct spelling!) about my reply.. I was a coalface worker all my life. No smart suit here, as you would well know if you'd worked with me.

<<whilst still making sure we strive to improve the staffing situation.>>

How much striving does it take to fix a problem that has existed for over 30 years to my knowledge.

ifaxu

13th Feb 2005, 19:46

What are you doing on this forum if you worked down the mines?
I do apologise for my spelling but then I am just a humble Atco(oxymoron?) Just because you failed to improve the system in 143 years as an Atco does not mean we should stop trying now.

Arkady

13th Feb 2005, 21:24

"Why dont we call it OVERTIME like every other company?"

"Overtime" in NATS is different to an AVAA. If you work overtime you are subject to the Green Book T & Cs. If you work an AVAA you are subjuct to the T & Cs of the AVAA agreement in the last pay round. Call it enhanced overtime if you like.

"We could on the other hand stand up for ourselves and refuse."

Refuse to do what? If we are asked to work in a manner that is compliant with the Staff Handbook and SCATCOH we can't refuse.

Our management don't want a fight or bad feeling, they'll offer cash at the next pay round to accept a deal that they could probably force on us if we say no.
They may want to get us to accept changes to our T & Cs that they couldn't force upon us, that'll be another wedge of cash.

As HD has pointed out there will always be an ATCO willing to take the extra cash. Actually, it's probably a majority of ATCOs now, judging by the last pay round.

DC10RealMan

14th Feb 2005, 06:43

That is exactly my point. There will always be ATC staff ready and willing to do overtime or AAVA call it what you will. We should be more "unenlightened" and refuse to do things a little more. In years to come when you have lost your index linked pension, you are all on individual rosters, on call at home, compulsory overtime, etc, there will be no one to blame but yourselves. I understand that all this downgrading of your personal lives will be OK providing you all get "loads of cash". All of which brings me back to greed. I think that it may be a "generational thing" as both HD and I are of similar vintage, ie being older and wiser.

Air.Farce.1

14th Feb 2005, 08:49

Quote from ifaxu >>

"Oh how charming! A poor person frequenting our jolly little forum. Now be a good fellow and fetch me my headset, I have AAVA's to attend to. " unquote. <

I am actually a £ millionaire , and dont need to work my b---s off :D

You " ifaxu "obviously are not , that is why I guess you do all that "overtime", er sorry AAVA :D

And well said DC10RealMan :ok:

ifaxu

14th Feb 2005, 08:51

DC10 or HD have still failed to come up with exactly how we would benefit from digging our heels in. I think the halcyon days of air traffic that you both remember(as do I to a lesser extent having been an atco for 20 years) are behind us. We need to look to the future now and with a strong but realistic union approach do what is best for the membership. If that membership thinks that money is a good enough motivator for the extra tasks they are asked to perform who are we (yes I include myself as someone who is not motivated by more money as I have more than I need at present) to shout them down. A union is about democracy, and unpalatable as it may be to some the membership has proved that it is motivated by cash! So lets stop hiding behind moral indignation and elevating our job to something it is not and negotiate from a representative position.

Airfarce 0ne I do no overtime at all and my response to your earlier post was meant as mildly ironic. No offense meant.;)
I am a $millionare if that is helpful.

Mr Chips

14th Feb 2005, 09:33

ifaxu its strikes me that management have two choices. They can either try to get staffing levels up to where they should be, OR they can pay AAVAs and not have to increase numbers. If staff refused to do AAVAs then management would HAVE to do something about staffing levels....

So, more staff, or more money for the existing staff? And there lies the issue of greed....

(yes, I know that numbers can't be raised that quickly, but you see where I am coming from...)

ifaxu

14th Feb 2005, 10:19

mR CHIPS EXCELLENT RESPONSE. i AGREE ENTIRELY WITH WHAT YOU SAY. BUT, THE LIMITATIONS THAT WE WORK WITH ARE THAT WE DO HAVE A LOT OF STAFF WHO ARE MOTIVATED BY HARD CASH. WE CAN NO LONGER CONTINUE TO BELIEVE THAT IT IS A MINORITY OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL THIS WAY AS PAY ROUND AFTER PAY ROUND IS VOTED IN ON THE BASIS OF HOW MUCH MONEY WE ARE OFFERED RATHER THAN QUALITY OF CONDITIONS.

I have switched off "caps lock" now! DOH:O

BEXIL160

14th Feb 2005, 13:59

Why all the shouting?

The UK staffing situation has been brought about by years of crass management. A simple fact.

A simple fact that no manager has admitted is true. Perhaps if they did so they might have more credibility? After all if an ATCO makes a bit of an error, he / she is usually suspended and then offered some retraining (community service). I do not recall ONE manager ever being suspended or offered re training. Why not? Or are they all error free? I do not think so.

"Destinations" and "buy in" are just the latest buzz words from somesuch business school. Been there, seen it all before, as have most of us. It doesn't actually change anything.

It's not the staff attitudes that need tweaking, it's the managements. An example? In reply to peoples unease with the statement that "NATS will not tollerate SSE1/2s by 2007", the manager responsible refused to do the simple thing and change the wording, choosing instead to defend it.

Now when you've made an error, the best way out is to admit it and learn from it. It's what most aviation professionals do, including most ATCOs. It is therefore a great pity that the management cannot "manage" in the same professional manner.

There was a time when I might get all worked up over this. In common with many, I just don't care anymore. I love my job, but am heartily sick of the way it is being mis-managed. "Get involved" you may say. Been there, tried that. Waste of time. Virtually all the people I had to deal with outside the Ops room had no idea about ATC or safety,and nor did they want to know. Office jobs are about maintaining empires, not about ATC.

rgds BEX

DC10RealMan

14th Feb 2005, 14:51

I would agree entirely with Bexil. The only problem I have with overtime is that it encourages the management to believe that everything has its price ie:Pension guarantees, stable roster, standby duties, etc and from previous submissions they may be right. I have no problem with the general principle, but please wait a couple of years until I have claimed my pension and retired and then you can all work as much as you like and get "loads of dosh", be on call H24, and do standby duties, if fact why dont we do away with salaries and just get paid by the hour that you work on the sector. I for one will laugh when in a few years you all come whinging in here about how hard you work, but you may as well make the "dosh" now as I am sure in a few years with the advent of "Free Flight", TCAS, and other goodies there may be no requirement for ATCOs anyway.

Arkady

14th Feb 2005, 16:49

It has long been said that an ATCO will only strike over two things - Leave and Pensions. I suspect that this is still true despite the greedy money grubbing profession we have become
;) . Up to that line, I would agree that everything else has its price.

I suspect this is less of a generational thing than an attitude towards work in general. The job for life is a thing of the past in almost all areas of employment; no wonder employees may prefer instant reward to possible long term benefit. ATCOs, as members of society in general, are unlikely to be much different. As I have said previously, a lot of the changes management would like to make will be within their rights - individual rosters particularly- so it really depends upon us to get the best deal we can for working them.

As for AVAAs, the whole pay case last time round was underpinned by the need for an AVAA agreement. Management would not have offered anything like the levels of pay increases if they hadn't had to guarantee the acceptance of the AVAAs.

I do AVAAs. I didn't the first time around because I didn't like the scheme as it was and I felt I was getting nothing for my extra effort. This time I have agreed to do some because the agreement is different and I know that my pay rise (and yours) was enhanced by the need for them. Does this make me greedy? Or a company man? Neither I hope, or perhaps a bit of both. Eventually our management will try to negotiate away some of the fundamental benefits of this job. I don’t think my colleagues will fall for it, or be bought. But in the meantime we will get pretty close to the line.

Slippers

15th Feb 2005, 05:35

There have been a number of posts on this thread implying that if you do AAVAs you're a greedy b'stard with no respect for your own or anybody else's personal life. I beg to differ. My motivation for doing them is purely family based. I can earn as much in one shift doing something that I enjoy, as it would take my wife to earn doing three extremely ****ty shifts working in the NHS where you really know what it's like to work short staffed.

Please, let's try and maintain a sense of reality of what it's like to work both inside and outside ATC.

RogerOut

15th Feb 2005, 11:44

Slippers, my motivation for *not* doing overtime is purely family based as well. It's a bit surreal but on my days off I spend time with 'em.

Slippers

15th Feb 2005, 19:25

Roger,

My point was a simple one but it appears to have been lost on you so i'll explain.

Me doing the odd AAVA on a fairly regular basis reduces the the need for my wife to do anything other than a bit of part time work, thereby enabling the family to spend more time together and negating the need to put any of the kids into child care. Obviously it would be nice if she didn't have to work at all but sadly my salary alone doesn't stretch to the £300K+ that I need to buy a 4 bed house.

So as you say, it is indeed surreal because it appears we have found two people who like spending time with their family

ifaxu

16th Feb 2005, 10:53

What an offensive reply(since deleted) from Rogerout. There are indeed many Atco's who do the occassional AAVA so that their partner needs to work less or not at all. If this does not reflect Rogerouts situation then so be it, but for most of us the amount of time off that we have is a real plus of the job. BUT if your partner has to work fulltime to sustain a reasonable family income then that time off is less valuable to SOME people as they wish to spend time together. I know of one individual who by doing say 2 or 3 AAVA's would mean that his partner does not need to work at all thus meaning that allthough he has fewer days off those he does have are spent with the family together.
As I have said before I do not do AAVA's but defend the right of those who are not top of scale etc. to do them if in their professional judgement they are able.
Age/seniority does not always equate to wiseness. You only have to read some of the bitter, twisted posts on this forum from people who have been in the job for 30 or 40 years to realise this.

BEXIL160

16th Feb 2005, 11:47

ifaxu.... A nice little post and a sentiment that I would wholeheartedly agree with.

Not an AAVA person myself, but see no reason to stop others if they so choose. I do not want to be required to do extra days in future.

The last para I have a little difficulty with
Age/seniority does not always equate to wiseness. You only have to read some of the bitter, twisted posts on this forum from people who have been in the job for 30 or 40 years to realise this.

This may be just your PERCEPTION. E-mail and postings here do not tell the entire story. It might be a mistake to judge (or take too seriously) others equally valid opinions.

Bitter and twisted me? Nope, just extremely disappointed with poor management (which, BTW is no better in most ATC providers.. just ask any FAA controller).

Tell me if you really think any different? I may not agree, but that would be your opinion. How could I criticise you personally?

Rgds BEX

ifaxu

16th Feb 2005, 12:58

Bexil160--- point taken but I did not say that age/experience never equates to wiseness just not always. I quite agree that some of the posts on this and other forums from very experienced people impart a lot of knowledge. However when it comes to AAVA's, management tecniques and staff shortages, We are entering a new era with new problems and hopefully new solutions. Therefore the cynical attitude that it's managements fault so tough luck will no longer work( IMHO).
I have nothing but respect for anyone who has spent 30 or 40 years doing the job BUT times are changing and the support of these well respected individuals is far more valuable than an attitude of "it hasn't worked so far, so it will never work."

CRR

16th Feb 2005, 15:22

Listen to yourselves.

"Oh, I don't want to do overtime" (have the balls to call it what it is). How many other countries around the world do have overtime and people happily stick their hand up to do it.

If you want it, do it. If not, let those that want to whore themselves.

ifaxu

16th Feb 2005, 15:31

"whore ourselves" my god I had no idea that is what AAVA's involved! I assumed people were just going in and doing radar.

Maybe I will reconsider doing them!!:D

RogerOut

17th Feb 2005, 08:30

Ifaxu, I thought that might make you change your mind.:ok:

P.S. Offensive? You should get out more my delicate flower.

Arkady

17th Feb 2005, 09:07

RO

Your original post, before you edited it and then deleted it was VERY offensive.

ifaxu

17th Feb 2005, 10:26

I am very pleased by RO's reply. I have never before been called a delicate flower. It is nice to see my feminine side come shining through and I have pointed out RO's opinion of me to my wife who thinks somewhat differently. I hope this is the start of a beautiful relationship between myself and RO which will slowly blossom as befits my floral nature;)