BA Cabin Crew and American Visas

[Tallbloke]

For the uninitiated who do not know what is going on, could someone explain why BA CC have are having difficulty with the American welcoming commitee please? The gist gathered from another thread (something about Tampa) is that their is some kind of problem for CC renewing visas to enter the United States.

This raises 2 further questions, which demonstrate the complete ignorance of the correspondent on immigration matters vis a vis international travel:-

1) Do British CC require work permits to fly to the US since they do not actually work in the US (aircraft on the British Register are UK Sovereign territory as far as I am aware)

2) How is it that if the answer to Q1 is yes, this is not a mere formality?

(welcoming commitee = INS in winedrinkerspeak.)

Please note this is not meant to be the beginning of another America bashing thread, it is just a quest for knowledge, likewise "cheese eating surrender monkey" type replies will not enhance the correspondent's knowledge of the subject. Furthermore the use of the word correspondent is that of "One who communicates by means of letters" not "One employed by the print or broadcast media to supply news stories or articles". Just so you know. "Why are you asking then?" I hear you ask. Well, corny as it sounds, some of us still retain our curiosity. And I know it is neither rumours nor news but hey, no-one else cares.

[Human Factor]

1) British airline crews require a C1 and D1 visa to operate into the USA.

2) Because the Americans in their wisdom treat airline crew no differently to anyone else wanting a US visa and make them queue round Grosvenor Square from 8am. Can't speak for other companies, but BA crew have to travel to get the visa renewed in their own time and at their own expense, although BA pay for the visa itself. When you consider that a large number (I would venture a majority) of BA long haul pilots and cabin crew are not residents of London or the South East (or even the UK in many cases), you can see why this is a major PITA.

It's alright to be curious, Tallbloke. ;)

[bealine]

Additionally, some crew members have travelled into Central London on their day off, queued outside the Embassy for 6 to 7 hours only to have the door slammed in their faces "Closed For Lunch!"

The complete and utter disdain with which Britrish Citizens are treated by the US Embassy beggars belief and I feel we should (A) Reguse to Handle US registered aircraft in the UK and (B) Refuse to carry US Passport Holders on British aircraft until both the US and UK Governments recognise we have a serious problem that needs addressing.

This US intransigence is now costing British Airways dearly!

Another thing - why should British passport holders be subjected to 3 hours plus queueing to get through US immigration??? We missed our connections at Houston last year and had to overnight at our expense at a hotel by Houston airport as a direct result of this bureacratic nonsense. AND US Immigation officials are the rudest in the civilised world too! It's about time our Immigration clerks started a tit-for-tat action! The aviation industry needs this problem addressing urgently!

[Dylsexlic]

Do Americans need a visa for the UK now? Certainly they never used to......

So what benefits does our "special relationship" with the US bring then? Piddly squat as far as I can see.

[driftdown]

I used to enjoy visiting the US, placing high up on my list of places to keep going back to.

Now I cannot be bothered with all the hassle on arrival. Plenty of other places to explore and enjoy.

Doubt my absence will affect the tourism industry much tho'

Driftdown:D

[Flying_Frisbee]

Maybe it's a bureacrat thing to show no consideration for us plebs!
I found out recently that the British Embassy in Luxembourg no longer issues passports. No I don't know why either.
Anyway, I was told I'd have to apply via Paris. I CAN apply by post, but I only if I pay with a French bank account cheque or postal order AND with a French proof of posting form! Not many UK citizens living in Lux will have either.
I accept that passport issuing can be centralised, but it needs to be accesible by everyone forced has to use it.
Still I suppose I could always make the 7 hour round trip, take the day off work and apply in person..... :*

[maxy101]

I think crew only require the Crewmans Visa, which I believe is the C1 . The other (D1) is a normal tourist visa, done at the same time as a courtesy to crew. As for the hassle of travelling to the US Embassy, I do wonder what some pprune posters would suggest as an alternative?
A posters question "Another thing - why should British passport holders be subjected to 3 hours plus queueing to get through US immigration??? " Probably because , the average Brit doesn't have the correct pasport, or on the case of some of the pax on my flight (and unfortunately ahead of me in the immigration queue), don't know their left finger from their right finger, causing the computer system to lock up for 10 mins while the Immigration Officer rebooted his Windows driven computer.
IMHO, the USA does perceive a potential terrorist threat from the UK , perhaps as a result of our safe haven immigration policies?. As a result, some of us are forced to jump through these frustrating hoops. BTW, a lot of crew avoided all this on BA advice and renewed their visas early. This meant avoiding the need to pop up to central London "for a chat". It was widely promulgated at the time in the various company publications.
What I think is a shame, are the people who given any problem or hardship will take the opportunity to take it out on the pax or the company.

[Dylsexlic]

Maxy101 said "What I think is a shame, are the people who given any problem or hardship will take the opportunity to take it out on the pax or the company".

I totally agree and you only have to watch any of those Airport programs on TV to realise what industry insiders have known for years - the average pax leaves their brain at home when travelling (I'm being generous here......)

Is it still true that airlines are fined $2,000 for every pax who does not have the correct docs on arrival in the USA?

[CargoMatatu]

The Crew visa for the US is the "D" visa. All visiting crewmwmbers are required to have this.

Not too many years ago, when I had to renew my "D" visa, I sent it to the US Embassy in London - registered post. When it failed to return some while later, I went through the tracing process via the Post Office.

It turned out that it had been received by the US Embassy, but then they lost it - along with quite a few others! They openly admitted that this was an ongoing problem that they had, losing many passports constantly! They paid for a replacement.

After that I always go to the Embassy personally and wait in line. Hours at a time:*

[bealine]

Is it still true that airlines are fined $2,000 for every pax who does not have the correct docs on arrival in the USA?

Correct (although it's now up to $3000) even if the passenger is permitted to enter the US.

Even worse, is the fact that all passengers' passport details have to be sent electronically to US immigration as the flight departs the UK. The US have the power (as we witnessed a few weeks ago) to turn an aircraft back mid-flight if they don't like the look of someone's entries!

Personally, I like the USA and have always got on particularly well with the big-hearted people of Texas - but this bureacratic nonsense and "attitude" of immigration staff is diabolical!

WTF are our Diplomats doing??? Allowing George Bush to shaft Britain yet again!

[rsoman]

Additionally, some crew members have travelled into Central London on their day off, queued outside the Embassy for 6 to 7 hours only to have the door slammed in their faces "Closed For Lunch!"

The complete and utter disdain with which Britrish Citizens are treated by the US Embassy beggars belief and I feel we should (A) Reguse to Handle US registered aircraft in the UK and (B) Refuse to carry US Passport Holders on British aircraft until both the US and UK Governments recognise we have a serious problem that needs addressing.

********

Strong words BEALINE . But dont get all worked up! People from sone nationalities have had to que up for visas for the past so many decades!

If it is of any comfort to you, my nationality and passport allows me to land up in a grand total of 5 countries (or is it six???) without getting a visa in advance! Everywhere else the wait takes from a couple of days to a month!

The last time I came to your part of the world, I had to wait at my local British consulate for 30 hours literally non stop - about 10 hours of it in an exposed area in pouring rain before I could even get in! 1st day I started my wait at a very civilised hour of 1 AM and then the door was slammed shut for the day at 11.30! Was back in the que at 4 PM the same day for trying to get in next day (was still about 10 th in the que) and finally my visa interview was over at 11 AM and the visa through by 5 PM on day II. All in all a mere 35 hours queing up!


Now this did not mean that I got all hot and bothered like you are for queing to get a visa to USA. I merely accepted the inconveniences I faced in getting a UK visa as something resulting fom the privilege of a country to lay down the necessary rules as they may deem fit to regulate the visit of citizens of another country! And I would be the first to say, that atleast in my case I enjoyed the year I spent in your country to the maximum after getting my visa.

[hobie]

How often do Visa's need to be renewed these days?

[sammypilot]

Driftdown is wrong if he believes that the tourist industry will NOT miss him. Noticed a plethora of advertisements on TV lately all saying what a great place the US is? Reason quite simply is that, like Driftdown, a large number of the SLF that used to enjoy a holiday in the States no longer regard it as being worth the hassle.

A great shame because the people there are fantastic and the service second to none.

In the long run financial pressures will always work better than any politician and at some time, hopefully in the not too distant future, sense will prevail. Before then of course we have to suffer the next hurdle, the need to have a biometric passport to gain entry.

[Lou Scannon]

The problem with the US requiring visas for UK citizens (and many others) goes back to a conference in 1948. Following the Second World War all the nations agreed that free access to each others territories was a good thing.

Every country then signed...apart from the US. From then on British Crews and citizens required visas to enter the US but American Crews coming to the UK and Europe did not. No British Government ever did anything to correct this anomaly or retaliate by insisting on US crew and citizens requiring visas to enter the UK.

I remember a mixed US and Brit crew arriving in Japan. The Brits were allowed in with much courtesy on a bare passport while the Americans were berated and fined for daring to enter without visas. Perhaps the Japanese have the right idea.

Don't blame the immigration guys, they are simply trying to make sense of the political directives. Write instead to your MP or the US Embassy.

[hapzim]

More difficult to get crewing to do a large batch as finger prints now required.

Take a brolley and ensure "Vital Actions" are completed prior to queuing as the are no amenities until you get inside.:E

Passport was back in 4 days part of which was a w/e.:ok:

[junior_man]

France has required Visas for US crews for years.
I will say they were quick and courteous when I went to the French Embassy in DC to get one.

Look at the bright side of coming to the USA. The Thousands Standing Around (TSA) will give you a free colonoscopy upon arrival.
Hopefully regime change in 4 years.

[Sonic Cruiser]

What about GEN-DECS??? Are these not used for airline crew to get in and out of countries without Visa's.
Or are the Americans above this and think it is not secure enough???!!!!!!

[Re-Heat]

Many would be shocked at the treatment UK immigration officials give to those who live and work in the UK but hold a non-UK passport. It is exactly the same as that complained about US officials.

SFO immigration had become extremely friendly, efficient and quick in my last visit - perhaps they are changing?

[SLF]

Dunno if this helps

Been to the US twice in January, and entered both times with NO queues at all, even when arriving Coach (on UA with checked baggage).

The reason I believe? I came in thru Washington in transit, and obviously they don't want to delay/inconvenience domestic flights and so ensure they have sufficient staff to deal with the arrivals.

Not sure if this works, but is it possible to arrive thru the Transit door and exit the airport...? ;)

Oh, and they were pleasant to deal with also, although I must admit to having met my share of awkward b@stards last year...

[LatviaCalling]

Went through Immigration at ATL two weeks ago from AMS with a Latvian Embassy issued US passport -- much different from the ones they issue now. This one has the numbers perforated throughout the passport.

Going through immigration was a breeze. I actually went to the "others" line because it was shorter. Cleared within 10 minutes with a comment of "have a nice day."

Then my luggage was lost on Delta and I didn't have a nice day until two days later.

[DA50driver]

Hey, can everyone lighten up just a bit? The US is new to this whole regulating everything movement. Yes, mistakes are being made, but they will be fixed over time.

A little patience would be great.

Try entering Norway if you are not white as snow. They will kick you out in a heartbeat.

[LatviaCalling]

The following is what the U.S. Embassy in London says:

On October 30, 2000, the Visa Waiver Pilot Program was made permanent when President Clinton signed into law the Visa Waiver Permanent Program Act.

Do I qualify for visa free travel?
Most visitors to the United States enter the country as tourists. With the introduction of visa free travel to citizens of 27 countries, it is now possible for many travelers, including British citizens, to enter the United States without a visa under the Visa Waiver Program (WVP). Visa free travel is also available to qualified travelers who enter the United States on business or in transit.

Citizens of the following countries: Andorra, Australia, Austria, Belgium Brunei, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom may travel visa free under the VISA WAIVER PROGRAM if they meet ALL of the following requirements:

The traveler is a citizen of one of the countries named above, traveling on an unexpired national or EU passport. Passport holders from Andorra, Belgium, Brunei, Liechtenstein and Slovenia must be in possession of individual machine readable passports in order to travel visa free. For citizens of the other 22 visa free countries, including the United Kingdom, this requirement has been postponed until October 26, 2004. Read more....... A passport indicating that the bearer is a British Subject, British Dependent Territories Citizen, British Overseas Citizen, British National (Overseas) Citizen, or British Protected Person does not qualify for travel without a visa. Note: A passport which states holder has Right of Abode or indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom does not qualify for visa free travel;
Traveling for business, pleasure or transit only;
Staying in the United States for 90 days or less;

Plus, if entering the United States by air or sea is,
Holding a return or onward ticket. If traveling on an electronic ticket, a copy of the itinery must be carried for presentation to the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS). Note: Travelers with onward tickets terminating in Mexico, Canada, Bermuda or the Caribbean Islands must be legal permanent residents of these areas;
Entering the United States aboard an air or sea carrier that has agreed to participate in the program. This includes aircraft of a U.S. corporation that has entered into an agreement with the Immigration and Naturalization Service to carry passengers under the Visa Waiver Program. Note: other private or official aircraft or vessels do not meet this requirement; and
In possession of a completed form I-94W, obtainable from airline and shipping companies;

[ZQA297/30]

Careful with Visa Waiver Program, INS officer has absolute discretion, and you have no recourse. Not usually a problem, but if you encounter a sh*t-head you dont have a leg to stand on.
Think I read recently that it (VWP) will only apply to new "identity encoded" passports from some date soon.

[Balboy]

"Havn't heard of a single crew member that has yet ever had to go to the embassy to obtain there own visa. Our crewing dept processes them in mass batches also!"


This was true until recently. My crewing department used to send batches of passports off to the embassy for us. However recently, our rosters have started to show LON-LON which means its off to the embassy for your visa renewal.

Its really sad how us crew are treated by SOME immigration officials. I too used to enjoy my Stateside trips, but too many times I've seen Immigration clear 600+ passengers through and still not cleared 11 crew members in that time. Were often the last to leave the immigration hall.

Now its banned to take a cig lighter into the States in any part of your luggage or person.... Thats it, I'll be looking forward to any trip that isn't USA bound... even POP..
:uhoh:

[patdavies]

Latvia Calling

Your post regarding the VWP is similar to Microsoft Tech Support - precisely accurate but totally useless:D

The VWP is only available to persons entering as TOURISTS Crew are not in this category.

VWP is only for valid machine readable passports issued before October 2005 or biometric passports - unless Congress changes the date again.

Entry into the US is entirely in the gift of the immigration officer regardless of VWP or Visa. A visa does not guarantee entry - only that you may apply for entry

[WHBM]

This last week US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice has been in Europe on a desperately needed "goodwill" tour trying to rekindle relations between the US administration and Europe. To quote :

"It is time to turn away from disagreements of the past. It is time to open a new chapter in our relationship, and a new chapter in our alliance"

Perhaps she can start off by dealing with things which are directly under the US Government's control, namely the way they have allowed their bureaucrats to p1ss off so many Europeans, whether it is ludicrous visa requirements that add nothing to security, the abject rudeness and arrogance that US officials enjoying their power trip show to European visitors whether at Embassy or airport (described above and in countless other places), and the other aspects that have turned so many against travel to the US, and in turn against the country.

And regarding visas for BA staff, surely someone in the US Government can realise that BA probably delivers more tourists to the US than any other carrier. So any dislocating of them is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[anjouan]

I have to say that American INS officials are the rudest and most hostile I've encountered anywhere. People talk about the hassle of arriving in airports like Lagos, but it's considerably more friendly and hassle-free than the USA. My last experience of Houston was such that I've decided never to return to the USA for either work, courses or holidays. My company is now looking at buying European made helicopters to replace its Sikorskys as there are just too many problems getting visas to go to USA these days. The INS is buiding huge barriers to travel and trade with the USA that must be adversely affecting the American economy from both a trade and tourism point of view.

[SLF3]

Got back from Lagos this morning - took ten minutes gate to car going in, twenty minutes car to lounge going out. Everyone smiled, no one asked for money. Last three trips to Houston:

Going in: 3 hours / 3 hours / 2 hours
Leaving: 1.75 hours, 20 minutes, 20 minutes

The new improved arrivals hall has more space to queue, no toilets and the same number of staff.

My previous hates were Moscow (Sheremetevo) and Mumbai, but Houston sets a new benchmark for awfullness.

The TSA people have been universally polite, but the bit on the mission statement about 'treating people with respect' is about as well observed as human rights at Guantanamo.

[LatviaCalling]

Patdavies,

I'm not an expert in U.S. immigration. I only posted what they said on the U.S. Embassy website in London. I agree that there may be a difference between just tourists and working people made up by a flight crew. I also think that if things are so bad the Brits shoud retaliate tit for tat.

Anjouvan,

Living on those small islands off the Canadian coast, life can't be so bad. I've visited there twice and both times it was so foggy that I went away with no impressions, whatsoever, about your little French colony by Canada. I assume you carry a French passport. Things should not be so terrible that you would have to cancel a Sikorsky deal. Have them write the U.S. Consulate a letter. On the other hand, maybe they don't have a U.S. Consulate on St. Pierre & Miqelon.

[bealine]

The idea to retaliate tit for tat has been mooted for US registered aircraft to be "blackballed" and ground staff to refuse to handle them until the US co-operates with the visa/immigration system.

The USA will not be happy until our airlines are sinking in the same pond of stagnation that their Big 5 have found themselves in!

Unfortunately, if we go down the route of "blackballing" US aircraft, one or two of their carriers would definitely go under - and we would be reluctant to bring redundancy on fellow airline personnel.

Mind you, if we sit and do nothing, the US government will gloat as British Airways profits, once again, are eroded through their stupidity!

Perhaps, the right course of action would be yet another delegation to the House of Commons demanding our respective MP's take up the cudgels on our behalf!

[normal_nigel]

SASKATOON9999

Try and keep up. The US have changed their visa procedures in the last 6 months or so and now ALL visa applications require a visit to the US embassy.

We are not making this nup for fun it is FACT.

Apology will be recieved any time.

DA50driver

We'll lighten up when you lot get a life and stop treating every non American as a potential terrorist or criminal.

Treating people like **** now will not make up for decades of incompetence.

Y'all

[Charles Darwin]

Maxy 101 writes:
A posters question "Another thing - why should British passport holders be subjected to 3 hours plus queueing to get through US immigration??? " Probably because , the average Brit doesn't have the correct pasport, or on the case of some of the pax on my flight (and unfortunately ahead of me in the immigration queue), don't know their left finger from their right finger, causing the computer system to lock up for 10 mins while the Immigration Officer rebooted his Windows driven computer.

A "funny" thing just happened to me. When entering the joyous premises of US immigration, I was halted for about 30 minutes. There was a real and utter confusion and my existence was really in doubt there. The reason: I accidentally had a small cut in my left forefinger from the week before. Turned out that cutting ones finger before entering immigration is illegal and allegedly a act of threat.
Didn´t really want to hijack this thread, but I think this is too darn funny not to tell. :O

[ZQA297/30]

Hmmm, now here's a horrid thought.
Just think of all AA UA ,etc, etc, crew lining up in freezing cold for hours outside UK "crew visa section" in Washington.
Plus all the much needed revenue to balance the budget. Hey, it might even lead to lower taxes.
(Dont tell the French however, they are already looking for ideas.)

[AMF]

"Please note this is not meant to be the beginning of another America bashing thread...,"

They're never "meant to be", they just always end up that way. This one included.



Normal Nigel writes..."We'll lighten up when you lot get a life and stop treating every non American as a potential terrorist or criminal.

Treating people like **** now will not make up for decades of incompetence.
Y'all"

Normal_Nigel

You obviously think you are entitled to special dispensation by virtue of....what?

The fact is, even as a citizen of the U.S.. when I present myself at the border for entry into my own country I must wait in lines in order to prove to an INS official I have a right to enter, the same as any non-citizen. I have no special status in this regard in the eyes of the law. If I can't, I won't be allowed in. This is nothing new, has nothing to do with Bush, and it certainly isn't unique to the U.S.

But I don't know why they should stop treating every non-citizen as a potential terrorist or criminal, since it's their job to treat citizens entering the country that way as well. It's part of what they do, just like any border police the world over. And given my travels abroad, it's also a given these days that even when flying domestically as a pax during non-work related travel, I'm always a selectee for special screening for a full hand-search.

Personally, I'm glad they just don't let you (or me) waltz in and out of my country, and merely being a Brit or crew certainly doesn't entitle you to do so, or equate to being of some special class. We don't believe in that "class thing", remember? That's part of why we showed you to door in the first place.

[Diverse]

How are other airlines with non-US crews doing getting their visas sorted out. How are the Japanese airlines, Australasian airlines and European airlines coping getting their crews visas.

I think the US government would like those passengers carried by BA, Virgin Air France etc. to travel on US airlines.

[Carnage Matey!]

I certainly don't have a problem with the UK authorities insisting that any US crewmember wishing to come to the UK must report at the British Embassy in Washington DC at 8am for their visa interview and pay a $120 processing fee for the pleasure. Fair's fair.

[Diverse]

I've no problem with either side of the pond charging for visas or making people go through checks before they could get one. If countries begin to make it difficult for foreign airline crews to get in and out of their country on a work basis where will it end.

If it all degenerates into tit for tat obstruction we'll all be flying domestic flights for the near future. Governments will have to ensure that they have adequate staff in their immigration departments to process visas in a reasonable time frame.

[Final 3 Greens]

In the meantime, I won't be visiting the USA either, since I am fed up of having to explain issues such as this (and many less complex) to a race of well meaning, generally friendly, but mainly hopelessy naive people who cannot understand that their country has been a player in creating and developing Mid Eastern terrorism and now think that it is fair to punish everyone else by imposing measures to address a situation that they do not see they are partly responsible for.

[Feather #3]

I think you'll find that some of the offence taken at the visa requirement and its sometime excessively cumbersome procedures [like taking the same time to process 38 crew at LAX as 700+ pax] is caused by a nation who really needs to sit down and take stock of who its mates are. The circle just could be decreasing and its not too bright to piss off the only mates you have.

G'day ;)

[Rainboe]

We must remember a British passport is no guarantee of a person. Richard Read the 'shoe bomber' was Brit, we have had several 'British citizens' held at Guantanamo- though from their names one can hardly believe they are 'British'. People are using the cover of a British passport to carry out anti-Western activities. No wonder a British passport is not regarded as particularly 'safe'.
There is a load of virulent anti-Americanism using this Immigration procedure as an excuse to let rip. We did not lose 2500 people and some expensive real estate less than 4 years ago- had a large slice of central London been taken out, we would not be happy bunnies either.

[Final 3 Greens]

Rainboe

1 - an American citizen shot and killed a British policeman in cold blood last year - that does not make all Amercians potential cold blooded killers and nor should we (or do we) treat them this way. The US citizen was convicted and Reid was convivted too, so all this proves is that both countries are not free of serious criminals

2- The Brits who were held at Guantanamo have not been convicted of any criminal activity to my knowledge, in fact they have not even been charged, so using this to support your argument seems naive to say the least - many would quote this incident as showing the US in a very bad light. Your comment about their names is despicable and racist IMHO

3- the reason that we did not have a WTC type incident was that UK domestic flight security was rather tighter than US domestic flight security and by the way, a substantial number of the victims were expat Brits

Punishing the innocent (i.e. this Visa process) is not smart and when you link it back to BA s profitability versus the state of the US competition, I think it is only natural that some wonder whether there is not a commercial motive, at least to some degree, behind the latest developments. Personally, I have no idea whether there is any substance in that line of thought.

If you wish to consider this view rampant anti Americanism, that's your privilege.

[Danny]

Yet another thread where a few people are not able to understand that the debate is about crew visas for the US. This thread is NOT about TOURIST visas or anyone who is not aircrew. Also, it is not about US foreign policy in the middle east or anywhere else.

Yet again we have a few muppets who are unable to grasp the fundamentals of keeping the debate about the topic title. I've left a few of the borderline posts in, such as the stupid one about British passport holders who have committed crimes involving aviation and the suitable countered post about US passport holders being equally unreliable, if that's the way you choose to take the debate. Personally, I don't choose to have the debate follow that course as once again it just allows the thread to degenerate into the endless looping rants about the US and the Mid East. If you want to debate that, go and find yourself a website dedicated to it. This is for aircrew and aviation related issues.

Thanks for making my job here so enjoyable... NOT! :*

[anjouan]

Latvia,

At the risk of offending Danny....

I don't live in St Pierre any more (the weather as you have found is too horrible for a man working in Africa to want to go back there except on an occasional nostalgia trip!). I live in Europe but I work in Africa. For my company it is very difficult to get visas for our local pilots to go to America to carry out recurrent simulator training and it makes it a nightmare trying to do the planning for it. Even though we have local pilots who have visited many times it is more difficult for them than it used to be and the American embassy staff are often unfriendly and aggressive. It's almost as bad for those who want to visit UK - but this thread is not about that.

On the other hand getting visas to go to France is not usually a problem so going to use the Eurocopter simulator is easier (even thouigh it's not as good as the simulators we use in America IMHO). We aren't going to cancel any deal with Sikorsky, just not replace them with American aircraft. America will lose out, just a tiny bit, but multiplied by all the people like me and companies like ours, it can't be good for the American economy. I thougt it would be okay to get into America to do crew training under the visa waiver program as we're only flying simulators, but apparently that's not the case and anybody wanting to do any sort of flight training, whether on simulators or real aircraft needs a visa. My own experience at the American embassy was no problem. A bit of a wait as one gets at all embassies of places which large numbers of people need to visit and the official who interviewed me was quiet and polite - if only the actual experience of entering the United States itself were the same.

[Bumz_Rush]

So just how do I renew my crew visa. I am based in Middle East, work freelance, and do need to visit USA as crew sometimes, and for recurrent often.
Do I need all extremities "printed", and is it try that FSI in PLB is the only place outside the USA I can do this.
Do I need to go to USA to be finger printed to be able to enter the USA. Chicken and Egg question.

Thanks, Bumz...

[mutt]

Bumz_Rush,

You are talking about two different types of visa. You can obtain your "D" visa in the ME. But you cannot obtain the required fingerprinting for the TSA flight training approval.

Saudi Arabia has started issuing type ratings based on their own licence for the first time. For obvious reasons they were having immense problems getting crew training approvals.

Mutt.

[LatviaCalling]

After all the bashing back and forth -- there will always be those who will seize the first opportunity to expound their political views -- the problem it would seem remains serious.

Pardon my ignorance, but are these flight crew visas to the U.S. for one trip, or are they good for an extended period of time. I assume that this does not just affect BA crews, but all crews internationally.

By the way, once a year I too have to stand patiently in line at the Latvian Immigration Department to renew my working residency visa in my U.S. passport. Not too much fun. You have my sympahties.

[Techman]

They are good for 5 years and multiple entries.

[mutt]

Techman,

Not totally correct, it depends on the applicants nationality.

Mutt

[frangatang]

So when is the UK going to demand visas of Us crewmembers. As its been pointed out its only fair.

[mutt]

The "D" visa requirement has existed for over 20 years, the only thing that has changed is the requirement for an interview before the issue of ALL visas.

Crews in the past, could send an airline courier with their passport/application, now they have to attend themselves.

Is that a good enough reason to scream that US crews should have visas?

Mutt.

[maxy101]

What I don't understand is why you have to go if it is a Visa Renewal...Surely, they know who you are from previous applications. Also, the joke of listing all countries visited in the last 10 yrs is a bit extreme. Do they think Ali terrorist is going to list the time he/she spent in a Libyan/Sudanese/Afghan terrorist training camp? Like most knee jerk reactions, i.e anti money laundering rules, they hit the man on the street , but have no effect on the real culprits.

[Final 3 Greens]

Mutt

IMHO yes, if taking a narrow perspective.

The effect of the interview is to turn a mild inconvenience into a major inconvenience.

Reciprocity is a reasonable viewpoint and the present arrrangements are asymmetric, favouring the US.

I see no valid argument why US air crew should not be required to attend and interview and hold a visa to visit the UK (as part of a general visa programme.)

However, taking a broader view, it may be that the UK Government are weighing up the value of tourist dollars (bearing in mind that the dollar is weak due to GWB policies) and deciding that no action is the best action, even though aircrew are inconvencienced.

If I were being very devious, I might instigate a new policy where US aircrew where required to submit to Scottish Disclosure and gain an airside pass for UK airports, of course visitng a British Embassy for a suitable interview ;), but maybe I have spent too much time in France recently.

[Rainboe]

I fail to see why 'tit for tat' responses is going to help the situation of delays and difficulties at US Immigration. All it will do is not strike at the people who cause the problem, but at completely innocent airline US crews and passengers who will be the only people affected. If anything it will only escalate the problem rather than go towards finding a solution. There is a problem with US Immigration officials and officialdom- tell me again how making life hard for ordinary Americans will help?

[Piltdown Man]

Make the Yanks get visas. Prohibit their access to crew channels in Europe. If this causes problems - who cares! Quid pro quo. There are other people in the World other than residents of the US!

:yuk:

Final Three Greens: I like that - We can't have naughty people on the ramp, can we!

[bealine]

The thread is starting to turn again into Yank bashing territory!

Maybe all those of us involved in the British aviation industry should organise a delegation to the Houses of Parliament and seek an interview with our individual Constituency MP and demand that our case is taken up between the Foreign Office and the US and that the US Government should pay compensation to the airline industry for the financial losses incurred through flight cancellations.

That way, the innocent wouldn't get hurt and our government just might act democratically for a change!

(Mind you, if this was happening on French or Italian soil, I don't think they would be allowing US aeroplanes in/out of their airspace!)

[gtadxb]

If it's any consolation to anybody, here in France it's the same problem to have your D visa renewed... But here it takes 2 days !! First day is for interview and second day is for visa issue. So for all of us who don't live in Paris, that means having to take a trip up there, pay for accomodation, etc etc and being greeted by less than sympathetic embassy employees who also b*** off for their lunch break.
A friend of mine had his visa refused despite him going for a renewal... had his previous us visa for over 10 years and for no reason whatsoever, new visa was refused. US embassy explanation: he has the same first and last name as somebody on their "black" list. He is a pilot who often flies to US and so now is grounded because of this, hasn't flown for over 2 months now as problem is still not solved. His boss (the owner of the private jet he works on) wants to fire him now 'cos he's "useless" to him without a US visa... Nice story eh ?

[Diverse]

So the same and worse is happening in other countries. gtadxb I feel very sorry for your friend, this answers my earlier query to find out if it's happening in other countries too, seems it is with dire consequences for a few.

[Cuillin]

For what it is worth I was at US Embassy, London for crew visa renewal on Friday.

In queue at 0710, through security just after eight and complete by 0855. Visa due for delivery to home tomorrow. No complaints.

Interview was 2 minutes and very friendly.

General advice - make sure you have read the application instructions, paperwork and photos are as required and GET THERE EARLY.

Queue builds up quickly after 0730.

[Bramley]

One question that hasn't been answered here is whether BA are expecting crew to go to the embassy in their own time, and if so, why? That's the rumour - what's the truth?

[maxy101]

Ba do expect you to go in your own time and expense. The explanation is "we expect crew members to have the correct documentation to be able to work "

[LLuke]

In my company there are some people with identical names of wanted people from the US blacklist. They've an extra remark on their crew visum stating sth like this is not the one wanted.

[Bramley]

"Ba do expect you to go in your own time and expense. The explanation is "we expect crew members to have the correct documentation to be able to work "

I can understand BA's business rationale - save money whichever way possible - but that seems unreasonable to me. What will happen when other countries introduce equally convoluted visa requirements?

You have my sympathy.

[manintheback]

and by the way, they want their tax from your wages when you fly over their land

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4271877.stm

[DryV1]

I read the above and assumed it was a wind-up,then thought "it's from the BBC it must be true!".

Can you imagine the fun we could have filling in our tax forms for 10 different countries following a day return from UK to Cyprus?

I would like to think that the people in the IRS had more sense than to waste their time with a complete non-starter such as this.

[Bumz_Rush]

I might have missed the point but how can BA or any other company expect the crew to GUESS which visa they might need......Russian, Ukranian, Saudi, and many many other countries all require visas of some form.
Are the crews expected to read the roster and say...I might go tech on the flight to China so I must get visas for all countries that we overfly.

Come on BA, think in the real world.....

[LatviaCalling]

As a U.S. citizen living abroad there is a very long and complicated form to be filled out each year as to how many calendar days you have resided abroad and how many days you have visited the U.S.

If you have a mutual tax treaty with the country that you are living in, all seems to be fine, but if you report that you spent, for example, 10 days of "business" in the U.S. and made a deal of some sort, you are liable to pay tax to the IRS on the profits of that deal.

Again, I think that's to catch the little fish like us, but allow the real sharks to go free.

[ShotOne]

The trouble with this visa business is that other countries are likely to follow the US example -so in future we'll have to visit the embassies of half a dozen countries to explain to some jumped up government official why you should be allowed to keep your job.