Easyjet ---- RIS/RAS

[surface wind]

Its not unusual for myself to get confused......but.....how come Easyjet can route BLACA - DCS under a RIS from Scottish.....but can't route BEL dct DUB?


Surface Wind

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I can't answer.. but would it be best posted on the ATC Forum? Someone there is bound to know.

[Tower Ranger]

Would you fly anything Orange over South Armagh??

[Findo]

The answer needs to come from easy people not from ATC. The services provided by ATC in the area are well known.

Any easy people who can answer ?

[ILS 119.5]

Maybe due to radar limitations and criteria laid down in Mats Pt2. The ATC provider for that airspace will be able to answer. We cannot accept anything less than a RAS outside CAS, which is a company rule.

[eastern wiseguy]

Its not unusual for myself to get confused

well you said it!! ...I agree with you though the whole thing seems to be as random as the approach speeds they fly!!

Perhaps we should get together for a pilot /atco forum and get some misconceptions cleared up.Any Easy guys care to comment?

[AFFLECK]

Scottish controllers are restricted to RIS outside CAS unless on an ADR, or for traffic avoidance. Pilots can go direct BEL - DUB subject to workload and Dublin accepting the route, but it does have to be under a RIS.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Scottish controllers are restricted to RIS outside CAS unless on an ADR,or for traffic avoidance

Call me a bluff old traditionalist, but surely that means you are actually providing a RAS!!

[caniplaywithmadness]

That being the case, what happens if the ATCO downgrades the RAS to a RIS and the orange boeing is outside CAS?

Whipping Boys - you more than anyone I know of on here should know the pt 1 definitions for RIS and RAS and the requirement to upgrade RIS to RAS for Traffic Avoidance

[ILS 119.5]

Regarding minimum service provided. How can controllers be restricted to a RIS as the minimum. The minimum service as laid down in mats pt1 is a FIS. Only the controller can decide on the level of service to be provided at the time due to criteria laid down in mats1. Airline companies decide on the minimum service they require to operate outside CAS.

[caniplaywithmadness]

ILS 119.5,

I think that Afflek was pointing out that Scottish can only provide a maximum service of RIS (unless on ADR or giving traffic avoidance), this I believe is due to an incident some time back when the controller couldn't really comply with the conditions of a RAS due to workload, so the powers that be decided on a maximum of RIS.

[Take up the Hold]

If it is an Easyjet company rule why do crews still request direct routings outside Controlled or Advisory airspace?

Next question, and this directed not just at Easyjet, but at all airlines who regularly file routes outside regulated airspace.

What happens after routing direct in Class G airspace when the controller can no longer provide any form of radar service. He/She will then downgrade the service to a Flight Information and Alerting service only. Obviouly not acceptable to Easyjet, due to thier company rules, but how many airlines or aircrew can accept this service, and if unable to accept a FIS, what actions would need to be taken to regain the relative safety of controlled or advisory airspace.

I only ask, because on at least one occassion in the past 10 days a FIS was the maximum service provided in some areas of Scottish class G airspace, due to military activity.

I do expect a lot of replies saying that it is company policy only to accept a RAS or greater, but not all airlines file plans that remain totally inside controlled or advisory airsace. An example of this being EDI/GLA routing UL983 towards Copenhagen airspace and vv. There is no associated lower airspace route to/from the ScTMA, and airlines regularly file plans that way, what do aircrew expect? As stated on previous occassions the maximum service that ScACC can provide in Class G airpace is a RIS. So when the aircraft reaches the boundary of controlled airspace and the controller states the service is now a RIS or even a FIS, what happens.

TUTH

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

As stated on previous occassions the maximum service that ScACC can provide in Class G airpace is a RIS.

As a point of pedantics, the word "can" should be replaced by "choose to". Of course, in this particular circumstance, the real discussion is about who has made the choice.

[Take up the Hold]

It was a management decision. They chose the maximum service to be provided outside regulated airspace.

TUTH

[ILS 119.5]

As I previously said the minimum service is a FIS. ATC units will decide the maximum service they can give outside CAS. Airlines will decide the minimum they can accept outside CAS. It is then up to the crews to know what can be accepted outside CAS and to whether they it is safe to accept such a service. Personally, I would never, whilst working, accept anything less than a RCS.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

Meaning remain inside CAS at all times.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Meaning remain inside CAS at all times.

Impossible for operations to a great many airfields within the UK.

[ILS 119.5]

Yes, I agree, but my point is that if you can remain inside CAS then do so. Do not put your life and your passengers lives at risk by accepting a lesser service for the need of expedition.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

ILS,

Strictly the minimum service(s) is/are FIS and Alerting Service.

TUTH,

'Management' or 'SRG'? (Assuming you meant NATS management not eJ's).

Radar,

Perhaps those living close to such airfields should be sufficiently informed to enable them to chose whether or not to travel by other modes of transport to or from an airfield within CAS?

and to all,

You're not putting lives more or less at risk, in my opinion, you are leaving yourself wide open or quite well protected from a subsequent prosecution over dereliction of duty of care.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Perhaps those living close to such airfields should be sufficiently informed to enable them to chose whether or not to travel by other modes of transport to or from an airfield within CAS?

An alternative view might be for the national aviation authority to provide adequate protection to aircraft operations where necessary. Their argument will be that in low traffic density areas the needs of all airspace users takes precedent, see and be seen works, blah, blah blah ;)

[surface wind]

I initially posted this in the aircrew forum, hoping to get a response from a pilot......but somebody with clearly more brains than me decided to move this to an ATC forum!!!


Take Up the Hold

You say it was a management decision...still doesn't answer the question.....how come you can route BLACA - DCS, but not BEL - DUB under RIS?

Surface Wind

P.S. anything oranage always welcome over south armagh...provided it routes via DRUMCREE
:D :D

[PPRuNe Radar]

You say it was a management decision...still doesn\'t answer the question.....how come you can route BLACA - DCS, but not BEL - DUB under RIS?

I read it that Take Up The Hold was referring to an ATC Unit Managements decision to limit the service their controllers provided.

Whereas, I expect you want to know why some operators can operate one route outside CAS but not another under the same conditions ??

PS A pilot moved it .... I\'ll plead the 5th on the subject of who has more brains :p

[Mister Geezer]

Looking forward to the new airway from ADN-NEW. Should make all our lives easier!

[NorthSouth]

Looking forward to the new airway from ADN-NEW. Should make all our lives easier!But only if you fly early mornings or weekends

[Take up the Hold]

Thans to PPRuNE RADAR for clearing that up. I was refering to ATC unit management who dictated the level of service to be provided in Class G airspace in the Scottish AOR.
I can't explain why some Easyjet flights operate DCS - BLACA with a RIS but cannot operate BEL - DUB with the same service.
I can only assume that Easyjet have a different rule for Newcastle operations. To get to Belfast there is no route between NEW and the edge of CAS in the vicinity of Carlisle, then via DCS W911D IOM L10 for Belfast. To fly between Newcastle and Belfast and remain inside Controlled or advisory airspace for the whole route would involve flying via POL and WAL. This routing would obviously eat in to the profitability of the route. L602 via TLA is also a non starter as the base of CAS in the vicinity of NEW is 195(205 fromthe 17th)

TUTH

[Kit d'Rection KG]

I think we should acknowledge the role of SRG in determining the acceptable task for controllers at Scottish.

Also, Radar, given that the regulator and service providers will, of course, argue that they are furnishing operators with 'adequate protection', it is then for the operator (alone) to determine whether the operational framework provides an acceptable risk mix to justify their case for providing CAT. In making that decision, the operator's accountable manager should take advice from appropriate sources. This does not happen in the real world.

On one hand, there are many examples of recent 'close shaves' between aircraft within CAS, on the other, examples of similar events outside. The difference lies in determining the responsibility for assurance of safety (the exercise of duty of care). In this respect, the two environments are entirely distinct.

[SirToppamHat]

This routing would obviously eat in to the profitability of the route.

And there we have it. Airlines need to make profits to survive, and in some instances this means accepting a greater level of 'risk' by taking a direct route clear of CAS.

I was a bit surprised by an earlier post that any ATCO would feel it necessary to reduce service from RIS to FIS due to 'military activity'. How difficult can it be to call in a load of strangers? Shouldn't the service simply be limited due to traffic density? Surely better than a FIS, which, IMHO I would only downgrade to if the ac was operating outside radar cover!


STH

[ILS 119.5]

I understand what everybody is saying but from my 20 years of experience all passenger flights should remain in CAS regardless.

[Voroff]

ILS 119.5 such sweeping statements would reduce loganair to flying Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen & maybe Sumburgh if they fly high enough. Or are you advocating CAS being introduced for all routes flown by passenger flights which would probably mean the whole country covered in CAS.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Also, Radar, given that the regulator and service providers will, of course, argue that they are furnishing operators with 'adequate protection', it is then for the operator (alone) to determine whether the operational framework provides an acceptable risk mix to justify their case for providing CAT. In making that decision, the operator's accountable manager should take advice from appropriate sources. This does not happen in the real world.

In which case ... no GAT should ever operate outside CAS. Superb theory, alas in the real world the chance is a lot less than 0% :{

[DFC]

Voroff,

Yes great idea. What would the problem be with making all the current Class G into Class E from FL75 to FL245?

Makes controlled airspace available for IFR flights and everyone else- GA VFRs, gliders, the military can continue to play as they please.

If it is not done by the CAA then the one sky people will do it in time thankfully.

Anyone who has operated across the North Sea will only be too aware of the risks one must take in UK airspace below FL245 while everyone sticks their heads in the sand.

Regards,

DFC

[AFFLECK]

A question to the pilots out there regarding the BEL - DUB debate.

About 15 miles east of the direct route there is a perfectly good airway. How much would it actually reduce profitability to use this and have the protection of CAS? I know it's not the main issue here, but it would be interesting to find out some figures.

[eastern wiseguy]

Affleck a question you might ask is "why not realign the airspace in general to take account of the problems inherent in the system?". As an approach controller at Belfast it is sometimes less than easy to have everything stuffed down P600...discussions with the Dubs tell us that THEY would like the overflying traffic moved away from their terminal area...aircraft on routes to the south would also like to go on a more direct routing.Seems to me everyone would like it ...lets redesign it to work! I am not suggesting that P600 is shifted west ...but we could have a fillet with rising levels from the western edge of the Belfast TMA on a straight line to a position just about NEVRI ..that would do it....DISCUSS:ok:

[PH-UKU]

<DFC>

Class E ? It may be called a "controlled airspace" but it ain't a known traffic environment. In fact you are as safe in that as in Class G. Anyone can be in there VFR and need not have the permission of ATC - so radar cannot guarantee your safety any more than they can in Class G.

Perhaps you meant Class C ? Controlled VFR ?

<Sir Toppam Hattam>
Downgrading to a FIS? "How difficult can it be to call in a load of strangers?"

Well when you work a 200 mile sector on a 15 inch PC World computer monitor where the labels are wider than the 10 mile airways, it becomes bloody impossible to distinguish the multitude of F3s swarming around off St Abbs Head. Especially when they continually activate our SMF (Separation Monitoring Function - or snooper) and result in multiple distracting flashing targets all over the screen - which the software can't seem to hook quickly enough. AND their mode C is often absent as they turn and climb at numerous G, together with garbling Mode A responses.

<rant on>
Oh, yes and it isn't just the 4 or 5 Jetstreams working up and down the coast we are working - we do the P18/L602 roundabout at NEW, AND all the P600 traffic into Aberdeen, so we might have anything up to 14 aircraft or more on frequency. Which might explain why we get a little touchy at the totally pointless and inane calls from the organ-grinders monkey at Boulmer/Buchan "requesting info on your 1234 squawk". Invariably the ac is 100 miles outside our sector, so not only are they calling the WRONG SECTOR :hmm:, but usually timed to perfection at just the worst possible moment, AND taking over 30 secs (with numerous 'standby for controller' :mad: ) when most other agencies can elucidate the point in 10. Don't the FCs have an up to date post WW2 map of our ScACC sectors?
<rant off>

My question in response - "How difficult can it be, given that D613A/B/C are there for the use of Boulmer/Buchan etc... TO ACTUALLY USE THEM "?

I have lost count of the number of times that they are notified as active ...with no apparent activity inside them - but $hitloads outside. And then .... just as they are about to close ... the F3s go into them. As they say in Chewing the Fat .....

"Radar service terminated .." (http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/tv/chewinthefat/media/download_sounds/mrs_olfactory.wav)


Or am I missing something here ? :E

[RogerOut]

Well said that ATCO!

[ADIS5000]

DFC - Class E from FL75 - 245 won't work for the majority of military sorties. It would work fine if mil ac just transited in straight lines, but not for manoeuvring 8 ac sorties etc.

PH & RO -

1. Inane calls from FC units have been a recurring theme for a while now. If you have been on the receiving end of a 2 minute complete waste of time call from an FC unit whilst you're maxxed out, then when you get off console, ring the Fighter Allocator and complain in calm tones. Also, on those rare occasions that you get a visit from an FC, have a bl**dy good whinge. If no one complains about anything then our training regime won't change. We do want to operate with minimum inconvenience to the rest of the world. After all, we need your goodwill just as much as you'd like ours.

2. Yes, we do have up to date maps of your sectors, if people are getting it wrong (no one's perfect) then again, ring the Allocator afterwards and whinge.

3. Unfortunately "standby for controller" is a fact of life, as our ops rooms are set up for fighting wars when there ain't much co-ordination on a mil controller to civil controller basis required!

4. MDAs, this isn't rocket science! As you well know, MDA bookings are confirmed the morning of the preceding day, with bids put in by squadrons sometimes several weeks in advance. Now, if the Met man gets the weather wrong and instead of good VMC there's a huge cu nim in the centre of the 613 / 323 Complex, then we usually can't carry out our missions in that airspace. Therefore, the crews will usually operate in the nearest decent patch of weather, hence what you are seeing. If the sorties cancel then we hand back the MDAs to MABCC as a matter of course, which in turn lets you guys in.

Please feel free to discuss further / start new thread!!

Regards, ADIS

Edited to make the grammar even worser.

[throw a dyce]

Having worked in various parts of the world,Middle East and Hongkong,is believe that the airspace between ADN and NEW is some of the most dangerous I have seen anywhere.At least the military in the Middle East talked to you
How airlines can operate in this war zone,and pretend that they are protecting passengers is beyond me.The guys who offer services to Eastflights,KLM,BMI etc who tank through a shooting gallery,mixing it with anything and everything that the RAF and other Airforces has to offer,should be given massive pay rises (and early retirement).

And what do we have now? P18 between ADN and NEW when the RAF are in their beds.YEAH GREAT !! Will it stop the cowboys ploughing on direct... NO. Will it increase safety...NO. Why have it? ????? Ask the RAF.

When I see the 613's becoming active I cringe.Eastflight are getting pretty busy now at ABZ at all times and over 90% use this route.It's just a matter of time before there is real nasty in this area,and I hope that I'm not on when it happens.




:uhoh:

[DFC]

PH-UKU,

I know that the VFRs can be in there without talking to anyone..........just like parts of the Scottish TMA and Belfast TMA. However, when flying IFR in Class G my worry is not a VFR flight cause they will be in VMC and in order to hit them we have to be also but the other IFR flights that may be encountered in IMC.

If one looks at the typical profile of all the flights in Class G, the majority operate at or below 3000ft, less up to 5000ft and few above that level.

Making it all Class E above say FL75 would have minimal impact on civil operations normally conducted in Class G and for those who prefer to go IFR in class G, there is space between the Classs E base and the MSA for those crazy people.

ADIS5000,

As far as I am aware, the military are exempt from the requirements of the ANO and ICAO........No military person in their right mind wants a collision or even a near collision in any airspace. Being able to transit airspace where one can operate VMC without restriction or IMC with a service from a military unit and where all other IMC traffic is known traffic makes safety sense and improves the current situation without any restriction.

FL75 also is high enough for low level pull ups to MSA anywhere without infringing that airspace.

Have a look at what they do in France where most of the country is Class E airways to low level.

Regards,

DFC

[ADIS5000]

throw a dyce

Have to say that myself and the majority of my colleagues would rather have class 'A' oversea, ADN - NEW, permanently active instead of the ‘compromise’ that exists. That way it's black and white, if you're in it we stay away. Keeping it oversea would cause mil crews only moderate inconvenience, and probably only put approx 10 miles or so (guess) onto the Eastflight / Easyjet routes. I think that the reason we don't have Class A is because there is huge resistance from the mil flying types. Specifically that they would then have no options for repositioning due to wx if there was an airway in place. However, the frequent dramas that take place in the vicinity of D609 surely cannot continue indefinitely? The EGQL / EGPD / FC liaison meetings should hopefully address this.

DFC

Still not convinced, due to the manoeuvring nature of our work and SFC – FL350+ height block we often use. But I’m off to read up on Class ‘E’!

Regards, ADIS

[DFC]

Still not convinced, due to the manoeuvring nature of our work and SFC – FL350+ height block we often use

Since everything from FL245to FL660 is currently class B in the UK and in order to conform to the single sky requirement everything from FL195 up will be Class C soon, I fail to see how you can have no problem manouvering in that class of airspace but would have a problem with class E.

Perhaps you should read up on flexible use of airspace, one sky and MOAs. ;)

Regards,

DFC

[RogerOut]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4265107.stm

Touch wood.

[NorthSouth]

ADIS5000:our ops rooms are set up for fighting wars when there ain't much co-ordination on a mil controller to civil controller basis requiredMy understanding is that the principal war you're now set up to fight is the one that involves unknown aircraft with evil intent appearing in peacetime in amongst the myriad normal civil movements. In this context the notion that mil-civ controller co-ordination is an unnecessary luxury is a relic of the Cold War.

As to the civ-mil conflicts E of Leuchars and the indadequacies of the MDA system, the D613s are a creation solely to satisfy the increased aircraft and weapon range requirements of Eurofighter - another Cold War relic. They're no more use against terrorism than an F3, unless you think shooting an airliner down from beyond visual range is a good plan.

NS

[eastern wiseguy]

but.....how come Easyjet can route BLACA - DCS under a RIS from Scottish.....but can't route BEL dct DUB?

so back to the ORIGINAL question!!?

[Patrick Bateman]

BUMP...

Still waiting :confused:

[RogerOut]

They route one way or another because it's the preferred routeing for ScaCC, EGAA and Dublin. ScACC does not have to give a radar service in the FIR, FIS only being minimum - and it does happen more and more these days. Priority is given to those a/c that have filed via the airway system. You takes your chances etc etc. Simply put if Antrim sector were happy to give Easyjets direct to Dub on a Ris, Dublin may not be happy therefore it's not going to happen. BLACA - DCS is coordinated between same unit sectors where, as all ATCOs are aware, it's much easier to coordinate directs etc.
So if you insist on an answer, someone in the loop is not happy to provide a (radar?) service to Easyjet routeing BEL - DUB. And they're perfectly within their rights to do so. Get radar control on the airway or FIS in the FIR? Mmmm, just think of the mileage saved cutting the corner :confused:
I, of course, await correction.

[ADIS5000]

In order not to hijack this thread, this will be my final post here, if anyone wishes to continue this, as I said previously, pse either PM me or start a new thread!

NS

I detect a hint of a provocative tone in your post but never mind!

I shouldn’t really even justify your words above but I’ve bitten now, so here goes. Mil-civ co-ordination is obviously not considered a luxury. Please remember though that the nature of our work is very different to that of a civil ATCO. Therefore, we must train on a day to day basis in an environment that is as close (peacetime safety constraints dependant) as we can get to that we would experience in conflict. After all, you’re a taxpayer do you want us to do what you pay us to do or not?!! (Discuss). We have excellent comms to the vast majority of civil units, it’s just that when civil agencies phone us it is routed to the Fighter Marshall (a qualified controller) as you guys only have one line into us. The Fighter Marshall or his asst will then transfer you to the console you require. As our assts sit at the same console as us, they will invariably answer the outside line and if you require co-ordination this will result in a further transfer to the controller. This was part of what PH-UKU and RO were talking about above.

As to your second point, you are partially correct in that the Typhoon was one of the factors mentioned in the MDA development stage. However, you are totally wrong that MDAs were developed solely for the Typhoon. FUA springs to mind and anyhow, most of the existing MDAs are way too small for an ac with the performance and capabilities of the Typhoon. The ac that is now flying is different from the original Eurofighter concept and could not in anyway be described as a “cold war relic”. Now stop winding me up and go away!!

Regards, ADIS

[surface wind]

As the wise guy from the east said "back to the original question"


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but.....how come Easyjet can route BLACA - DCS under a RIS from Scottish.....but can't route BEL dct DUB?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I am looking for an answer from an orange pilot, rather than ATC. Roger Out, its got nothing to do with co-ordination. This is an Easyjet operating problem. They file BEL - BLACA - DCS knowing they will only get a RIS, but will not accept the same service from the same ATCO (Antrim) routing BEL - DUB.

There must be an orange driver out there...............:rolleyes:

[RogerOut]

Surface Wind, okay that's the answer from the ATC side as I see it, perhaps Easyjet have been advised by ScACC they are not guaranteed a RIS between BEL - DUB. After all ScACC cannot guarantee that Dublin will give the RIS after transfer. I, like you, will wait for the definitive answer from the big "O". Also, our colleagues in the Emerald Isle may have some input. Anyone?

[DFC]

Where is the flight from/to that routes BEL - Blaca - DCS?

Regards,

DFC

[Take up the Hold]

It is the NCL- BFS service

TUTH

[DFC]

Not eaxctly a good comparrison then - a route that requires significant diversion through busy airspace in order to remain in controlled airspace compared to a flight that going direct to the most common hold actually enters the airway anyway.

Many previous operators have safely operated the Blaca DCS NEW route in aircraft that were not as quick to get to height without difficulty..........so wheres the problem?

Regards,

DFC

[Take up the Hold]

The primary task for controllers at ScACC is aircraft in controlled or advisory airspace. If they are not busy they can supply a Radar Information Service to aircraft in Class G airspace. If they are busy then they can reduce that service to a Flight Information Service.

The problem is airlines filing flight plans in Class G airspace and expecting a radar service when this is not always possible.

Height has nothing to do with it.

TUTH

[DFC]

Since the flight will most likely be FL100+ before leaving and Newcastle operate up to FL95? then why not make use of the Middle Airspace Radar Service that the mil provide to flights from FL100 up.

Seems that every few operators make use of this service published in the AIP. Atleast they will give a RAS.

Thus if I was flying the route it would be;

ATC to Blaca and RAS to the ADR route boundary with Scottish civil followed by handover to Scottish Mil for RAS until crossing the Airways when ATC and then RAS with Mil and handover to Newcastle thereafter.

If ther service is there then why not use it?

If the service is published as available in the AIP but refused on a regular basis then it should be withdrawn.

Regards,

DFC

[not a scooby]

SirToppamHat, suggest a little visit to Scottish, & strap yourself into the Tay sector for an afternoon............., this may answer your question as to how difficult it can be

[SirToppamHat]

not a scooby

I don't need the sleep that badly;) .

But seriously, why not limit the service (traffic density) rather than reducing to a FIS? In my world, there is little difference between the 2, as the controller is still required to pass Traffic Information to aircraft receiving a FIS where he/she considers there is a risk of collision. However, does the MATS definition not preclude this?

It is possible to route Aberdeen-Newcastle at ML remaining within CAS. It makes little sense (if safety is your priority) to do otherwise. I accept, however, that for some routes this option does not exist.

If the Tyne Sector is too busy, perhaps it's time for restructuring? Management directing that a lower service be provided does not (from a passenger perspective) seem acceptable to me.

STH

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

A couple of useful links. The first takes you directly to the NATS License:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/5/ergdocs/nerlicence_november2003.pdf

The second is a generic CAA page regarding various NATS License issues:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=5&pagetype=90&pageid=585

Maybe someone can make some sense of this and actually compare what should be provided against what is being provided. If there is a discrepancy (and I'm not saying there is), then surely NATS shound make available the necessary resource to address any such shortfall. If there isn't, well maybe STH is right and commercial aircraft should not fly outside CAS unless this is unavoidable.

PS. Somewhere in that lot there appears to be a formal complaints procedure; has any operator ever done this?