Easyjet ---- RIS/RAS

[surface wind]

Its not unusual for myself to get confused......but.....how come Easyjet can route BLACA - DCS under a RIS from Scottish.....but can't route BEL dct DUB?


Surface Wind

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I can't answer.. but would it be best posted on the ATC Forum? Someone there is bound to know.

[Tower Ranger]

Would you fly anything Orange over South Armagh??

[Findo]

The answer needs to come from easy people not from ATC. The services provided by ATC in the area are well known.

Any easy people who can answer ?

[ILS 119.5]

Maybe due to radar limitations and criteria laid down in Mats Pt2. The ATC provider for that airspace will be able to answer. We cannot accept anything less than a RAS outside CAS, which is a company rule.

[eastern wiseguy]

Its not unusual for myself to get confused

well you said it!! ...I agree with you though the whole thing seems to be as random as the approach speeds they fly!!

Perhaps we should get together for a pilot /atco forum and get some misconceptions cleared up.Any Easy guys care to comment?

[AFFLECK]

Scottish controllers are restricted to RIS outside CAS unless on an ADR, or for traffic avoidance. Pilots can go direct BEL - DUB subject to workload and Dublin accepting the route, but it does have to be under a RIS.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Scottish controllers are restricted to RIS outside CAS unless on an ADR,or for traffic avoidance

Call me a bluff old traditionalist, but surely that means you are actually providing a RAS!!

[caniplaywithmadness]

That being the case, what happens if the ATCO downgrades the RAS to a RIS and the orange boeing is outside CAS?

Whipping Boys - you more than anyone I know of on here should know the pt 1 definitions for RIS and RAS and the requirement to upgrade RIS to RAS for Traffic Avoidance

[ILS 119.5]

Regarding minimum service provided. How can controllers be restricted to a RIS as the minimum. The minimum service as laid down in mats pt1 is a FIS. Only the controller can decide on the level of service to be provided at the time due to criteria laid down in mats1. Airline companies decide on the minimum service they require to operate outside CAS.

[caniplaywithmadness]

ILS 119.5,

I think that Afflek was pointing out that Scottish can only provide a maximum service of RIS (unless on ADR or giving traffic avoidance), this I believe is due to an incident some time back when the controller couldn't really comply with the conditions of a RAS due to workload, so the powers that be decided on a maximum of RIS.

[Take up the Hold]

If it is an Easyjet company rule why do crews still request direct routings outside Controlled or Advisory airspace?

Next question, and this directed not just at Easyjet, but at all airlines who regularly file routes outside regulated airspace.

What happens after routing direct in Class G airspace when the controller can no longer provide any form of radar service. He/She will then downgrade the service to a Flight Information and Alerting service only. Obviouly not acceptable to Easyjet, due to thier company rules, but how many airlines or aircrew can accept this service, and if unable to accept a FIS, what actions would need to be taken to regain the relative safety of controlled or advisory airspace.

I only ask, because on at least one occassion in the past 10 days a FIS was the maximum service provided in some areas of Scottish class G airspace, due to military activity.

I do expect a lot of replies saying that it is company policy only to accept a RAS or greater, but not all airlines file plans that remain totally inside controlled or advisory airsace. An example of this being EDI/GLA routing UL983 towards Copenhagen airspace and vv. There is no associated lower airspace route to/from the ScTMA, and airlines regularly file plans that way, what do aircrew expect? As stated on previous occassions the maximum service that ScACC can provide in Class G airpace is a RIS. So when the aircraft reaches the boundary of controlled airspace and the controller states the service is now a RIS or even a FIS, what happens.

TUTH

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

As stated on previous occassions the maximum service that ScACC can provide in Class G airpace is a RIS.

As a point of pedantics, the word "can" should be replaced by "choose to". Of course, in this particular circumstance, the real discussion is about who has made the choice.

[Take up the Hold]

It was a management decision. They chose the maximum service to be provided outside regulated airspace.

TUTH

[ILS 119.5]

As I previously said the minimum service is a FIS. ATC units will decide the maximum service they can give outside CAS. Airlines will decide the minimum they can accept outside CAS. It is then up to the crews to know what can be accepted outside CAS and to whether they it is safe to accept such a service. Personally, I would never, whilst working, accept anything less than a RCS.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

Meaning remain inside CAS at all times.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Meaning remain inside CAS at all times.

Impossible for operations to a great many airfields within the UK.

[ILS 119.5]

Yes, I agree, but my point is that if you can remain inside CAS then do so. Do not put your life and your passengers lives at risk by accepting a lesser service for the need of expedition.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

ILS,

Strictly the minimum service(s) is/are FIS and Alerting Service.

TUTH,

'Management' or 'SRG'? (Assuming you meant NATS management not eJ's).

Radar,

Perhaps those living close to such airfields should be sufficiently informed to enable them to chose whether or not to travel by other modes of transport to or from an airfield within CAS?

and to all,

You're not putting lives more or less at risk, in my opinion, you are leaving yourself wide open or quite well protected from a subsequent prosecution over dereliction of duty of care.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Perhaps those living close to such airfields should be sufficiently informed to enable them to chose whether or not to travel by other modes of transport to or from an airfield within CAS?

An alternative view might be for the national aviation authority to provide adequate protection to aircraft operations where necessary. Their argument will be that in low traffic density areas the needs of all airspace users takes precedent, see and be seen works, blah, blah blah

[surface wind]

I initially posted this in the aircrew forum, hoping to get a response from a pilot......but somebody with clearly more brains than me decided to move this to an ATC forum!!!


Take Up the Hold

You say it was a management decision...still doesn't answer the question.....how come you can route BLACA - DCS, but not BEL - DUB under RIS?

Surface Wind

P.S. anything oranage always welcome over south armagh...provided it routes via DRUMCREE