The Demise of the Professional Pilot

[TDF380]

The Demise of the Professional Pilot

It is very sad to see, and must be very concerning for those pilots with years to go before retirement, or those considering a career as a professional pilot.

In the past the Airline Captain was a rewarding and satisfying career. The pay was commiserate with the expense and work required to obtain the qualifications, and study/work to maintain your qualifications (e.g.: recurrent Sims, CRM, DG’s courses, Tech Knowledge etc) and the experience that had to be gained over many years before you could Captain a Jet Airliner. The conditions (i.e. days off, duty hour restrictions, company restrictions, annual leave, benefits etc) compensated for the many duties flying throughout the night, through different time zones, with half your year spent in a hotel room far from your home and family. Compared to other professions like doctors, lawyers, accountants who also may have worked long hours, but could go home to the family each night.

Look at how things have changed in recent years. Selfish, Greedy Airline Owners, CEO’s and Managers have turned this profession into a sad and sorry state. Professional decision making has been taken away from the Captain, and given to the Managers, Rostering and Commercial Departments. Yes on paper you are still the one to make the final decision, but look deeper, even on this forum, and you will see if you try to exercise your responsibilities you will be deemed to be a trouble maker, or acting against the company’s best interests and be held back, intimidated, sacked or forced to leave.

With the introduction of low cost carriers, who basically keep their fares low by paying all pilots, flight attendants, engineers, check in staff and loaders minimum pay, are rostered long hours and with negligible benefits, all airlines are cutting their pay and conditions to compete. Yet even these low cost companies are continually reducing their staffs pay and conditions. Just look on this forum at airlines such as Ryan Air, whose pilots apparently have to pay for their own recurrent training with the airline. (See www.ryan-be-fair.org). The only salaries increasing in this industry are the CEO’s, BOD’s and Managers , who continually vote themselves pay rises and bonuses while all other staff are faced with pay cuts due reasons such as rising fuel prices, SARs, competition etc. With China’s and India’s economies strengthening, and therefore their requirement for fossil fuels increasing you have to expect even more drastic pay cuts to compensate, as all the other fixed costs such as aircraft and equipment will not decrease, therefore the only option left is to cut staffs pay and conditions, and to operate with less staff who work longer hours, for less money.

I believe these Airline Owners, CEO’s and Managers should be despised and held in contempt for their greedy and intimidating management.

Of course you will always get low experience pilots taking positions with them to gain experience, but where do you plan to go once you’ve gained the experience. Most major National Carriers and other supposedly non low cost carriers are drastically reducing their pay and conditions to compete, rather than all airlines raising their fares.
The pay for many airlines is lower, or soon will be, than for bus drivers, train drivers, heavy machinery operators with limited financial outlay, exam qualifications, or recurrent training. I’m sure they could have been pilots if they wanted to spend the money, and years of study required. If fact their duty time limitations are getting more restrictive than pilots.

Then you have the relevant CAA’s, FAA’s who seem way out of touch with the hours required by today’s airline pilots. Since the duty times were introduced years ago, every time a new longer range aircraft is introduced airlines ask for longer duty hours to fly them, and the CAA’s always say yes. Nowadays we can work a 12, 14, 16, 18 hour plus, duty, throughout the night, on many consecutive nights, and in many cases, as with our airline, they don’t even require a bed to sleep, just an upright seat, with all the lights on, noisy passengers, flight attendant services etc.
While we have slip patterns that take us on all night flights from the UK to Aus & NZ (13 hour time zone changes) within a few days, minimum rest then back again, with one maybe two days at home base before were off again. Have they heard of Jet Lag, you cannot always sleep when you have too because your body clock wont let you. I think for them Jet Lag is something they get when they go on a long flight on holiday, and then they sit on a beach for 10 days before flying home. The most taxing operation they have to do if figure out how that flexi straw in their pinacolada works. Try operating a Jet in fowl weather after flying several long flights on consecutive nights, for several months on end.
Yet ironically these twits making and extending these duty time limits sit in a quiet office from 9am to 5pm from Monday to Friday.
The flight and duty times has just been extended. Also as these new ultra long range aircraft are emerging the CAA’s and DCA’s of the world have allowed only the time in the front seat to be counted as duty time, therefore a 16 hour flight, with 18 hours of duty time could be counted as only 9 hours for example, therefore you can expect to do an extra trip or two a month. You can have it.
You’ll have to have a strong marriage to cope with that. If it doesn’t you’ll have to plan on working until your 65 to crawl back financially to where you were before the divorce took half of everything you had. Of course I’ve seen this already with long haul pilots.
Then in their wisdom they write a CAP371 best practices recommendations which are not mandatory, knowing only a handful of airlines will actually implement them. So the majority of airlines work their crew’s right up to the max hours ignoring these recommendations. They should be mandatory, otherwise don’t bother issuing them.

The hours worked, with multi sector short haul, or consecutive long haul, with fatigue due to jetlag etc, are unsustainable for a 40 year career. Some may feel they can work these hours just to gain enough experience to move to a respectable airline, yet the respectable airlines are very few now, and the working hours of these airlines are constantly been extended, and pay been reduced. A few pilots in the airline I’m with have retired early as they could not cope, or did not wish to try and cope with the hours been rostered, since our roster patterns were changed 3 years ago. One lost his medical. Yet it’s a lot of money and work to outlay to obtain the qualifications to only plan to do it for 15 to 20 years until you’ve burnt out, then move on to do something else. Can you imagine a doctor or lawyer plan on only working for 15-20 years before retiring and looking for a change of jobs? Then with the pay been constantly reduced it’s unrealistic to think you’ll have any where enough money to retire from flying and start a new line of work.
Can you count on working these hours for 40 years and keeping your medical? Certainly it won’t be long before the retirement age is 65 for pilots, assuming you maintain you’re medical until then. Yet this may be required to put aside sufficient money to retire comfortably.

Many pilots in the company I’m with are angry and are looking to leave, yet they can’t find a better job to go to at the moment. Others are saying they hope to get out of the industry in 3 to 5 years. If there is a pilot shortage in the future, then just expect to have to work longer hours to crew the schedule (this has happened in the airline I’m working with).

It’s time Airline Owners, Airline Management and the Governing CAA’s, FAA’s and DCA’s of the world were held responsible. As has been documented, Airliner incidents and accidents are normally a series of factors, with documented proof fatigue and commercial pressure is one of the major contributors, therefore the next time an accident is blamed on pilot error, check if fatigue or commercial pressure was a factor, and pass the blame directly on the above. It’s easy to say the Captain has the final responsibility, but as with the airline I am with, if I was to refuse to do the flight, or stand down due to myself or my crew been fatigued, my contract would be terminated immediately with no reason given.

Am I been dramatic? Yes
Am I been pessimistic? Yes
Am I angry? Yes
Am I been realistic? Yes

Good luck and good health, you’ll need it.

[GGV]

Well said. Unfortunately you are correct.

The only people who can stop the rot are pilots and we have pretty well demonstrated ourselves to incapable or uninterested in doing so. Just look, for one example, at the thread on the breathalysed pilot for a good example of (a) something that would never have been contemplated in the past, and (b) for the range of pilot opinion on a matter where there should be a consensus. How many young pilots today would have refused?

Ours is a job in which our professional autonomy has been taken from us because we did not protect it. Nothing is likely to change, except for the worse. What Ryanair started by demanding payment for type ratings, etc. is gradually moving to other airlines ... and so on and so forth.

Those in established carriers think they are above and remote from these influences... but they are WRONG. They will be attacked, successfully, from below.

Depressing, but true.

[Safety Guy]

TDF380:

While I can't share your pessimism, I do share your concern regarding the cumulative effect of fatigue on long haul pilots as the range of aircraft increases. But, like anything else that concerns us these days when it comes to safety, it's a tough uphill battle to convince the rule makers that the risk will eventually come back to bite the industry very hard. Still, it's a battle worth fighting, and there's plenty of evidence to support the fight. Pilot unions and associations should be leading the charge on our behalf.

You make one statement which concerns me greatly, and I do hope you carefully consider the ramifications of it. You said, "if I was to refuse to do the flight, or stand down due to myself or my crew being fatigued, my contract would be terminated immediately with no reason given." First, is that really the safety culture within your company? If it is, you and your colleagues are in serious trouble, IMHO. At the very least, the safety manager(s) in your company should support a crew member's right to remove themselves from duty when fatigued, and they should make it known to management that dismissal for doing so is simply not on. Second, and more important, have you considered the potential ramifications to you (and/or those you love) should you have an accident during which it is proved that you were knowingly fatigued? No pay cheque or retirement plan is worth that, IMHO.

[ZQA297/30]

Safety Guy
You may not have been in the trenches in the last few years, but things have definitely changed for the worse.
It is now common for those who stand up for what is right to be labelled as troublemakers, and even their fellow pilots accuse them of being anti-company if they do not bend over backwards and keep the operation going, even if it means bending the rules.
When their jobs are threatened, some pilots seem to lose their integrity quicker than than anything else.
Let us hope that the darkest hour is passed, and things will improve from now on, because it has been ugly.

[Joyce Tick]

Nothing in TDF380's post stops a pilot from being professional......

[Roobarb]

I agree with '380.

BALPA aren’t doing anything about it.

What are we going to do?


http://www.80scartoons.8k.com/roobarb6wee.gif
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!

[unimuts]

Well said TDF 380,

I totally agree with your concern for the demise of the industry. I think a more positive stance from flight crew would have stopped this a long time ago, however, there are to many pilots willing to self type rate. Judging by ryanair it doesnt stop at self type ratings.

I have sadly seen for myself, friends operating in the air taxi work, being undermined by pilots working for free, yes FREE. Unable to negotiate pay rises or medical expenses. They like flying air taxi but after becoming depressed and being cornered into accepting pay cuts, working longer hours , they have packed up and left the industry.

So these pilots working for free, There excuse? I need the multi time. But what happens when they leave after gaining these multi engine hours? working for another employer for low pay and long hours.

So what employer would'nt recruit somone willing to work Long hours and accept irregular working patterns and for FREE ?Would this happen in the legal, dentist, accountancy fields ? Like :mad: it would .

So as TDF 380 witnesses colleagues retiring early after a 15 - 20 year period, How lucky are they , I have friends throwing the towel in much sooner without ever flying a commercial or corporate Jet and looking at going bankrupt. So where and how does this stop?

I think it is time for all pilots to be more proactive in there stance against such working practises. Balpa and other organistaions seem to have lost there fighting spirit.

[Dogma]

TDF 380,

To right, those of us in well run, great companies are facing the drip drip of cost cutting and corner cutting. Mostly as a result of pilots in LoCos companies accepting second best and getting shafted daily. The sad thing is they know nothing better.

Joyce Tick: Fatigue and low moral affect a pilots professional attitude.

Pilots are too self deprecating- You would never hear a GP saying that they are just panadol prescribers!

[Kit d'Rection KG]

Well said. We'll see more of these posts from time to time, I expect.

I'm very glad to have got out of the airlines, into a wonderful job with great people, which uses my skills and adds to them, whilst having none of the down-sides of the airline routine.

My friends tell me that since my job change, I've become a different person, much more the way I was years ago before I got into public transport flying. I feel much, much, happier, younger, more healthy, and more positive.

The most important thing I have realised, is how little I was aware of the effect that an airline job was having. Only when a good friend and colleague of mine had a near-breakdown did I start to realise the damage being done.

[WorkingHard]

Whilst I dont fly for a carrier, I understand , I think, the gist of this. For those who aspire to be captain with any major carrier would any of you care to tell us what your annual gross pay is? I stress gross and not net pay, including all taxable and non taxable allowances. Perhaps some budding captains may think twice. Before anyone shouts, yes I know money is not everything but it does assuage some of the feelings.

[Dogma]

Hi Ms T Ozi,

Thank you... You are the kind of twit of whom I refer! You would not know a good job if it bit you on the nose. Ryan air!! This is a wind up.:p

Down with the non-commercial pilot!

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

Good old Moritz... oops, I meant Ms Turret. This is all part of the process of aviation going the way of the merchant shipping industry- flag of convenience hulls, with crews drawn from wherever in the world they are cheapest. It is interesting that there is a quite close correlation between the safer airlines, and the salaries they pay...
Good luck at contract renewal time, there WILL be someone cheaper available, ready and willing to take your job. Or next time the company introduces a new type: accept the new Ts&Cs, or don't get transferred onto it.
Troll.

[PAXboy]

I believe these Airline Owners, CEO’s and Managers should be despised and held in contempt for their greedy and intimidating management. It will be no compensation or comfort to know that the above statement could be made of ANY business or organisation that I have heard of, or come into contact with, in the past 27 years of my working life.

Yes, it is grim that the folks up the front are having a bad time and grim that the saftey margins are bing whittled down - but they are being changed in every walk of life. To give but one example, goverments used to plan far ahead, consult and move forward with care. Anyone want to say that they still do that? In the same way that govts are hurting more people and wasting as much money as they save, so are airlines/banks/supermarkets. The British govt connived at the death of many in Iraq and will connive at deaths in the airline world. That is what mankind does, so I join the pessimisim.

BUT remember that the folks becoming pilots now will not have known the previous way of doing things and so will not think things so extreme. In the same way that the young people entering my main field (telecommunications) do not think the demands made of them to be unusual. Relativity? That'll be the one!

We can only watch out for ourselves and those near to us.

[MercenaryAli]

Yes the position of Captain has been watered down, dumbed down, almost disolved or so my old man tells me and he should know he was one of the youngest Lancaster bomber captains during the early days of the second world war. He then went on to fly Comets, 707 and 747 aircraft retiring from BA just before the Captain became "just one of the crew". . .

But what I find more frightening is this. . why would a young man bother to work his bxxxxx off at school then universtity then flight school and obtain the ATPL(Frozen) to take a job for the "peanuts" a new F/O is offered and the absurdly poor working conditions? All he has to do is father 4 or 5 children (that bit is quite fun) hold out his hand and at only 20 years of age be handed, yes handed, Welfare of more than £1000 a month totally tax free, be given a "free" council house and all the contents therein and when challenged as to why an able bodied young man is not working his retort is "I am too busy looking after my young children to work" . . . .enuff said!!!

The Welfare State was the socialists answer to a problem but has now become the PROBLEM !!

[Thrush]

Ali, well said.

If I only knew then what I know now I would have stayed in my previous career.

I earn the same as a Headmaster of a Secondary School as a Captain of a large modern jet, but have a damn sight more peoples lives at my fingertips, resting on split second descision making.

The whole situation is disgusting.

380, you deserve a medal for your post.

[xrba]

If Safety Guy cares to read the latest comments about Royal Brunei in the Far East Forum he will discover the airline that encapsulates all his concerns in his 2nd paragraph. One of the worst examples anyone could find.

[ILS 119.5]

This is why I'm leaving my company. Gonno fly bis jets whenever required, no major time zone changes, minimum hours. Do something else in my spare time, be with my family more and enjoy my life. I remember when I first started in the business it was seen to be quite glamorous, not any more. We are under rated and undermined. When I first had children I would have pushed them into the aviation business, not any more. There are far more professions now that are held in higher esteem, and command higher salaries.

[Duck Peeking]

Look at how things have changed in recent years. Selfish, Greedy Airline Owners, CEO’s and Managers have turned this profession into a sad and sorry state.

What a laugh :O

That statement very nicely sums up the attittude of a lot of so called "professional" pilots out there. Some of whom are now CEO's or airline senior managers !!
What goes around comes around........we only have ourselves to blame :ugh:

Off for a Chinese now.........

DP

[guybrush]

So what do you want the managers to do in the current climate? Do you really think that cutting top managements’ pay is going to be enough to cover the salaries of all the pilots? Of course not!

There are so many other factors to think of and if any union thinks of revolting, things sadly will become worse in the industry.

I am a pilot wannabe myself, but I know that a strike at the moment will have undesirable consequences. Furthermore, what guarantees that lower salaries are not going to spread to other industries?

I hear that a starting F/O in UK will make around 35, 000 Pounds pre-tax. According to my knowledge that is still a good salary, but not perfect. Could any Brits elaborate more on how good such a salary is? I'm still new to the UK and am not acquainted with its salaries.

Of course I would love to have a higher salary as a pilot. If I go into another job with better salary/conditions I will miss on all the fun of hoping around all the time. I have been living in many different places all my life and can't imagine settling down in one place now. I still want to be on the move, that's one of the main reasons why I want to work as a pilot. And yes, I know it will no turn out as glamorous and beautiful as I think, but, hey, I like it!:D And the idea of a person travelling all the time still seams glamorous to many people (especially if they hate 9-5 jobs like me).

cheers:ok:
guybrush

[maxy101]

Guybrush Hmmm Not many people start on 35,000 UK pounds a yr. Not much either when you try and buy a house in the UK. I guess you could buy a pyramid for 35 grand. Not in the UK, I'm afraid....

[ILS 119.5]

Ah but, Ah but, Ah but, Ah but, these pilots who are now managers do not have a clue because they got pregnant by sitting on a toilet seat after feeling the f/o's breasts, but that doesn't matter as the CSD has been caught smoking in the toilet and the flight attendant spewed before the flight. Anyway I don't care cos I told my instructor that you get AIDS if you smell so he's got it and my friend elsie got it by checking her flaps. In any case mum says be wary of all professional people cos they will all get you pregnant.

[Duck Peeking]

Exactly :ok: :p :p

[kennedy]

Just to clarify the wage situation in the UK, I moved into the right seat of a turboprop in 1998 from GA air taxi, and was paid the princely sum of £19,500 before tax, 1 1/2 years later got an early command at £34,000.

Moved companies to a low cost as an FO again and started on £38,000 ( + £4000 sector pay)

Not bad some could say, BUT! and a very big but! my plumber and my local Corgi register Gas technician actually earns more me!!!:mad:

Luckily again an early command 6 months ago, has bumped my salary up to a more respectable level, but in 4 Years at this company has shagged me out completely, working from 6am on my first day on til 11.30pm on my sixth or sometimes seventh day, that I've decided to move companies so I actually have a chance of reaching my retirement age in 32 years with a valid medical certificate!:\

When, or if I ever have children, I will certainly never promote a career in Aviation to them! and that is a sorry state of affairs!

Maybe I should follow my brother into the computer graphics world and earn his salary of over £ 100,000 per annum, to sit in front of the computer 9 til 5, 5 days a week, weekends off!

Pity they say that the flying bug is like the clap,once you have you can't get rid of it! otherwise there would be a major pilot shortage.

[Duck Peeking]

This thing about plumbers etc confuses me :confused:

What would you rather be doing ?
Driving about in traffic jams to get dirty, cold and p***** off with the customers ever demanding requests.....
or.............
Sitting on a nice warm flight deck and looking at blue skies ?

Having started life as a plumbers mate I can tell you there is no comparison. And if you want to earn anything like £40K + a year as a plumber you will be self employed and working all the hours you can muster and most weekends :{
PAYE plumbers earn around £21K..............
For those that haven't tried it, self employment can be a right pain in the **** (holiday pay ?? sick pay ???? what's that ????)
Next time you meet a plumber, either professionally or at the bar, ask him what he would prefer to be doing?
Most would swap places with you immediately.........

You can of course become a plumber if you want, I have yet to meet a pilot who has made the change. Most couldn't afford to take the drop in earnings. Then there is the subject of pensions, as a S/E plumber..............the lack of :{

Off for a Chinese now
DP

[Sonic Zepplin]

I love flying, and to get to a point in ones profession where we are even on this board, I believe most are passionate about what they do for a living. This isn't to say that we are not disgruntled with the current state of the industry.

I know if I had to do something else for a living, and it certainly has been entertained, I would have to be just as passionate about that profession as I have been with FLYING.

I feel for the group as a whole, because we are definately getting the shaft, but what industry isn't today.

I have been unemployed almost as much as I have been employed, and in the long run probably would have made more doing almost anything else, just because the periods of unemployment would not have likely been as frequent.

Great experience, lousy profession.

[African Drunk]

I do believe the situation would improve if potential new pilots had a better idea of the salaries and working conditions before they joined the industry. Most seem to think they will earn £100,000+ for 3/4 days work a week. If they understood the reality with some companies paying £16,000, after you pay for your type rating, this might see a decrease of pilots coming into the industry which could force a rethink by employers.

[DK338]

The pay and conditions in aviation as a whole is reprehensible. I am not aircrew, could never be as I'm as blind as a bat, but have been involved in aviation since leaving school in the aircraft ops/airport side of the industry. To say that I am astonished at the appallingly low levels of pay would be an understatement and what really amazes me is the seemingly limitless numbers of willing candidates who are prepared to accept these conditions.

As long as there are people prepared to accept low levels of pay and questionable working conditions the industry will continue to operate in this manner.

[Thrush]

guybrush

More like £18k to £22k for a new f/o.

There are always the, "My mate knows this bloke....... blah blah", stories, but they are the excepion rather than the rule.

Most new f/os have to do their time on the Turboprops unless they are ex-mil with a couple of thousand hours behind them.

[Hangin' on]

The AVERAGE wage in UK is 21,200 pounds a year, the MINIMUM wage is soon to be 5 pounds an hour. Unfortunately all this blather about safety only hastens the end of the pilot as Ernest K Gann knew him....the more we bleat about how dangerous we are when we are tired/pissed off etc. only makes the manufacturers more eager to remove the component that, as they see it, causes more accidents than any other piece of equipment on the airframe....If you don't believe me, just take a look at how much control you REALLY have on the 380. Management can at least point to statistics about incidents/accidents, and prove their case to some extent....as opposed to whining and the refusal to 'get on ones bike'. Unless we are prepared to vote with our feet, or modify the seniority based systems we all work under, so an experienced pilot does not have to start as an 2nd O, (will vote for this?,) what we have got now will look like paradise in 10 years time..........:ouch:

[meatball]

After 27 years pursuing a dream, changing countries back and forth ( europe-america, lucky lucky me ) building hours with much sacrifice ( saw my son for approx. 6 weeks in a 2 year period )here I am at fifty wanting to make a change in my career and I find myself quite literally stuck in aviation. Yes, it is an addiction of nearly 11800 hours, years and years of being away from home,sometimes with companies that hardly care about aircraft maintenance, the only real pleasure found in the challenging aspects of flight...see winter ops, short runways in Greece in all the variety of weather scenarios...freight dogging throughout USA, Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean...to end up in Europe
flying left seat 737´s for a charter company that can barely hold its own...so, I can only agree with the opening letter of this thread that aviation aint what it used to be and most important IT WILL NEVER EVER BE THE SAME.
I often think about taking up long haul lorry driving, but I know Id last about 3 weeks before my flying monkey takes to my back...:uhoh:

[MOR]

My take on this is that you only get one life. You have to decide what is important to you.

I slogged my guts out for various companies, and had my share of companies going broke under me, companies that didn't pay me, others that "retrenched" and put me back on some little turboprop. Maybe I was unlucky; my last company was really good, but still suffered from the problems noted in the first post. I even found myself attending a disciplinary hearing because some 20-year-old crewing person blamed me to cover his own arse. Nothing came of it, but the point is that in days gone by, the integrity of a senior captain would not be questioned so easily.

Yes, the flying was great. However, the flying was only a small part of the job, and all the other crap I had to endure- from crappy crewing practices to tech aircraft to handlers that didn't speak english; from drunk pax and stroppy security staff and staff carparks cleverly engineered to be as far away as possible from the terminal; was so depressing that in the end the equation simply didn't make any sense.

I now work from home and fly for fun. I enjoy being with my family, who I didn't see much of in any of my flying jobs. I get to watch my sons grow up, I am master of my own company, and I live next to a beach.

Yes, the flying was fun. But having a life is whole lot more fun.

You only get one life.

[skyclamp]

How totally DEPRESSING is all this.
However guys, you do forget one thing.
We are in control of THEIR toys.
We can and should start upping the fuel we carry and bloody well up the burn too.
Fly with the gear down, fly low and fast, fly where it hurts them.
I already do, have been for a while and will carry on until I, the Captain is once again recognised for what I do.
Please don't the 'soft ones' amongst you come on here now to tell me about me burning the company's profits with my potential wage increase in the process.
I simply don't give a gallon!
Now here's that wonderful essay from America, written by a Connie captain a few years ago.
Let's adopt his attitude:

I AM AN ARMY OF ONE

I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)

I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.

I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.

I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money....but this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.

When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One...And I'm not alone!

[Boeing 7E7]

Come on guys, this is an old tale. If YOU don't like what's happening, and you want it to change then YOU need to do something about it, as nobody else will!

Go for it!

[MungoP]

Breaking away is (fortunately for the 'management'/beancounters) not so easy....if like MOR you can adopt a lifestyle that offers all you need then you are one of the fortunate few....for most it means turning up for work where you'll be surrounded by unprofessional clockwatchers talking about televison and football...they'll be incompetent but good at hiding it and pretty soon you'll ache to get back to the professional atmosphere of the cockpit....I know that I did....but I also chucked airline work and now love flying all over again.....

[WorkingHard]

MungoP - "they'll be incompetent but good at hiding it and pretty soon you'll ache to get back to the professional atmosphere of the cockpit"
With that kind of nonsensical remark I bet you rose to very high office in civvy life and are just the best captain there ever was.

[guybrush]

Thrush, I got my information from air school or airline websites.

And I agree with many of you that the pilots should do something (exactly what are the unions for??). You should at the very least ask for better and more comfortable life styles (more time to over come jet lag if needed, more days off if there are little days off etc). And could you do that soon and on an international scale? You see I MIGHT be a pilot in the future with virtually any airline willing to employ me. So could you all just revolt now so I could find better working conditions when I am employed?:D :cool:

I am studying engineering at the moment and I am told that starting salaries are in the region of about 20 to 22 thousand Pounds a year in the UK. I don't see much of a difference compared to Pilots' salaries. So why are you all complaining when you are earning just like other professionals? Were pilot salaries higher a decade or two ago? If so how high were they?

Cheers:ok:
guybrush

[Charles Darwin]

A good start to a brighter future might include the abandoning of the word "driver" when referring to yourselves.

[jungljet]

I use to be in the aviation business, got disillussioned and left to become a train driver. I now drive freight trains 36.6K for a 35 hour week and no worries. Any hours over the contractual rate are paid as a bonus at Christmas averaging 15K after tax.

The futures bright, the futures Green.

Freightliner men are not from Mars. :D

[PAXboy]

We can and should start upping the fuel we carry and bloody well up the burn too. [edit more blather] I already do, have been for a while and will carry on until I, the Captain is once again recognised for what I do. Never going to happen. Please get real. The job has changed, along with the rest of the world and EVERY job that exists. Whether you are at the No.1 seniority spot in a main line carrier, or picking bean shoots in China, nothing is what it was or ever will be again.

If I was a boss and met this kind of narrow minded attitude, then it would irritate me significantly. Irrespective of what industry I was in. I did not like what was happening in my old line of work and have been moving steradily away from it for some years. The money is less but I knew that it would be, you could so the same. Start your own airline. Sheesh.

[Sunfish]

With the very deepest of respect, I have just finished re reading Ernest K. Gann's "fate is the Hunter", something I haven't read for thirty years. I would respectfully like to point out that times have changed since Mr. Gann flew. The technology has changed for the better since he wrote it, and with it I suspect the risk levels associated with professional flying although perhaps not for for the stuff that low time PPL clods like me fly.

There are two principles I wish to draw to your attention. the first is the risk/return equation which states that the higher the risk, the higher had better be the return if you wish to attract investment dollars. The second is the law of supply and demand that states that as prices offered rise, so does the available supply of goods or services.

I respectfully suggest that as flying is perceived to be less risky these days due to better technology, and the supply of eager young pilots who will work for peanuts, appears infinite, the bean counters will continue to degrade your perceived worth.

I suspect Mr. Gann was right when he suggested pilots earn their entire pay in two minutes per year, but I think many bean counters would think that your job is no more difficult or risky than their own.

Your own professionalism has lead them to this belief. I don't think you can legally or ethically demonstrate the dangers of your environment and the falseness of the beancounters position without scaring your passengers to death.

[A-3TWENTY]

I Agree with Charles DArwin and skyclamp
but.
I also think that the good old times (and conditions) were got because lots of people were thinking together and acting together.The old pilots spent lots of off days in the union.The old guys were fired.The old guys did a strike to get their fellow`s job back.The old good guys didn`t allow a new co-pilot do his leg while he didn`t join the union.The old guys weren`t the first to point out one`s failures.Or make the poor guy who had an incident previously guilty(even before the managment)

IT`S WORTHLESS to waste fuel if you don`t join to the Union. We don`t have any force alone.

I hear people saying"union does nothing).

Unions are YOU!!!!! THEY ARE YOUR VOICE!!!If you go to the union and tell them that you want even less money,they have to struggle for it.But you have to go there.If you want more money and conditions you have to go there.
When you see one saying the UNION does nothing ask him/her if he/she was on the last reunion...
GO THERE!!!!! even if you don`t open your mouth!!! You will form an opinion of how things are going by yourself.
It will be nice for you and your coleagues to see everybody there.

I see guys saying the youngest co-pilots are guilty.They have just a small part in the cake.Everybody started the career accepting everything.But people are never happy with what they have.And this young pilots who just joined the company soon will understand the system and will be more demanding.As long as they learn to fly with you ,they need learn to have a positive attitude .And THIS is a Captain`s duty.A 300 hours guy can not be a Captain.

Did you know everyone can take a UNION to court if they take oposite actions to those accorded with pilots???

Also remenber yourselves that a good job environment helps to get people together.

Let`s stop beeing nice guys in front and selfish in the back .

Let`s prove for ourselves and managment we are the real leaders.

Just to say one thing.I have already had a dicciplinary action for beeing on the head of a union .And I am still alive.I have a better job now,more money and a better environment.

STOP beeing afraid like chickens.By the way ,I think pilots nowadays are like chicken.A lot of noise together but if somebody taller than us comes into the place we run away in all directions.

Never expect 100% people stuggling for your rights.There are always chickens (young and female).But the man have to be the majority and they have to be hard and persistent.

Let`s think a little bit on our way of beeing in life/ work and remenber that a group needs of us too.

Bye. Best flights

[doublewasp]

What a load of incredible guff!

We ARE bus drivers.
The job IS easy.
They DO pay us what we're worth.

Nobody forced us to become commercial pilots. Vote with your feet.

[christn]

Thank you for your support.

[MungoP]

BUS DRIVERS ?

When did a bus driver have to accept a computer programmed fuel plan that he knew from experience might be a bit marginal at that time of year, when arriving at a destination many thousands of miles away .?...Or know that if he decided to ignore the plan and carry extra fuel he could end up having tea and biscuits with the chief pilot ? ..When did a bus driver have to climb/cruise/hold/descend through ice .....?

On really sh*tty nights at somewhere like Frankfurt I would look back and see businessmen climbing aboard after a day of meetings and hassle and know that pretty much all of them had a wife at home preparing the evening meal and children hoping to see daddy before going to bed....The wife didn't want a visit from the local police late that night telling her that he would not be home again.....and the children wake the next morning to wonder why their mother was in tears....

How many bus drivers have those thoughts before taxiing out ?

[Bealzebub]

How many pilots have those thoughts then ???:hmm:

[doublewasp]

Quite so:

Take the extra fuel, have the tea and biscuits, read the previous post:

Nobody forced us to become commercial pilots. Vote with your feet.

[christn]

Thank you for your continued support.

[Kaptin M]

To be honest, I'm sick and :mad: tired of debating this same cr@p over and over and over again.

Personally I think A-3Twenty's anology of comparing pilots to chickens is supremely PERFECT.
I think pilots nowadays are like chicken.A lot of noise together but if somebody taller than us comes into the place we run away in all directions.
I haven't seen it before, and if it is YOUR original thought, A-3TWENTY, you are, imo, an astutely brilliant legend :ok:

I'm sick & tired of being plucked, and stuffed (with b.s.) like a chicken...of being told that "The Company hasn't got any money, and so a pay decrease is necessary for the staff, if the Company is to survive."....only to see management reward themselves with extra bonuses, increased salaries, no alteration to their work conditions, but do NOTHING to increase actual productivity or increased revenue flow from clients!

Just like THEM, I'm in this for myself, now.
I can turn 1 hour sectors into 50 minutes...or 1 hour 30minutes.
The seat belt sign can stay on for all except about 10 minutes - for forecast/previous reports - of every flight!
I will step down when I feel fatigued, due to sh!t rostering, that has me doing consecutive early mornings, long days, and near minmum rest layovers. I'm a HUMAN BEING, not a robot!

I REALLY do NOT give a**** about the uneducated opinions of non Flight Crew, such as doublewasp - they know sfa about the day-to-day pressure put on crew, the effects of flying in O2 depleted work situations, the experience of having to stay at the work station for hours on end (without running off to the coffee machine/toilet/copier/work associate's desk - or flicking through the Internet pages at the Company's expense!)
The doublewasps are the M-F 9-5 freaks that live in a coffin from the day they finish their study - their greatest excitement, and fear, in life is going on vacation.
Exciting because it's "different" to the M-F 9-5.
Frightening, because they know they won't be missed, and are easily replaced!

So get over it guys - the fight is individually in our own hands now.
Like a fighting cock, be prepared to take your OWN stand as a pilot - for pilots!
http://www.raremaps.de/imagesbirds/cocksfightingfrench.gif

[doublewasp]

Oddly, doublewasp has been flight crew for most of his working life.

Just an opinion, old boy. Just an opinion.

[Charles Darwin]

WE ARE BUSDRIVERS

I don´t know what line of work you´re in, but you clearly do not belong in the elite profession of aviation.
It all starts within yourself. You don´t respect your profession, and of course nobody will respect you. People earn respect from their words and actions. Respect is earned. It is not something that comes with a position.
Think about that.

[skyclamp]

This thread must not degenerate into personal attacks.
However, doubletwat, get a job, a life, get out more, see the world.
Your unfortunate remark "Nobody forced us to become commercial pilots" is nothing more than saying nobody forced us to have families, to have cars, to have... anything we might like.
According to your skewed "philosophy" we should just bend over and allow to be rocketed by corrupt, unskilled management, or walk out, forgetting we have ever lived.
You must'ave been fun to fly with (if you've really been there - which I very much doubt.)

[Shagtastic]

I once heard a story from the outback refueller about hacked off pilots sweeping a tiny pile of stones under the props. Oh dear, a new chip or six to file out.

Professional.. um no, effective .. yes

[Foreign Worker]

doublewasp = 411A

[highcirrus]

doublewasp

Re: We ARE bus drivers.
The job IS easy.
They DO pay us what we're worth.

In the event that I changed jobs for the day with the driver of the Clapham Omnibus, completed the vehicle check out and route familiarization in the morning and entered service in the afternoon, at what stage would the real Omnibus driver be at, by this time, in his attempt to enter service as commander of a heavy jet public transport aircraft?

[Ignition Override]

Kaptin M: your comments are original and very clear, which make me wonder:

1) It might be none of my business, but does every pilot in Britain belong to a union? Can some airlines there allow an open shop, as happens in some US states? Many do not pay union dues nor belong. Most airline pilots here in the "states" realize that we are not looked upon as white-collar staff, but highly-skilled "blue collar" technicians, even if we wear military-style uniforms. Speaking of which, most pilots here tend to be rather conservative and find this 'blue-collar' self-image difficult to accept, especially some ex-military types (with many exceptions). Several years ago, a FEDEX Captain who I had jumpseated with told me weeks later (in one of our hubs), that a retired Naval Aviator who then flew as A-300 First Officer, told him that he liked the job so much that he would almost work for free (what a naiive sucker-perfect airline grey-haired cadet in his 40s...)! The Captain had no military check coming in each month and strongly resented the one fellow's attitude, and maybe others' similar views.

2) As has been said before on Pprune, you folks in Britain/Europe are now experiencing what thousands of US airline pilots have experienced since deregulation began here about 20 years ago. This followed two (OPEC) oil-embargo recessions during the 70s and an ATC strike and third recession (about '81), each of which caused thousands of furloughed pilots etc. Never mind in about '91. There were thousands of pilots at TWA, now without jobs, and at other once-fine airlines, some of which were ruined by the glut of bean-counter or attorney-CEOs running around from company to company, wailing about labor as the scapegoat. Some of these are ruthless vampires who can jeopardize our careers more than a thousand bank robbers could ever do-and it is legal. The sneaky ones own just enough stock to have ownership, and they quickly but smoothly "upstream" millions of dollars out of the airline into their holding companies. This is why many holding companies were created. One offered lucrative jobs to government judges after (or during?) certain key decisions were made in their favor, i.e. Texas Air Corporation.

Most major US airlines are now in a situation where our retirement "plans" years from now might be worth less than half of what a career long-distance lorry/truck driver might have-especially if he drives for the Teamsters (union) western region. I sat next to a truck driver not long ago on a plane who is retiring, and we discussed dollars, however tasteless this seems. Delta Airlines just sharply reduced its maximum fares with "Simplifares"-a 'brilliant move', reducing its revenue with the self-deception that it will keep people from lining up for the low-cost carriers, after Delta just barely avoided Chapter 11-for now... The present situation has already financially crippled thousands of retired US pilots, even those who flew wide-bodies to Asia and/or Europe for a major portion of their careers. In stark contrast, the most successful airline here (possibly in the world), Southwest, which is profitable each year and able to hedge much of its fuel, pays its pilots better than any other US carrier, and is heavily unionized!

Let's hope that you all don't see this select retirement "club" of impending gloom and doom on your horizons. Don't socialized governments have better regulations to prevent this very grim but real possibility?:(

[bigbusdriver06]

Anyone who thinks that a pilot's job is easy is doing it wrong!

[Hangin' on]

OOOOOOH MungoP, you are a hero, you ARE dangerous, but you can be my wingman anyday........

OK Mungo, call the ball.......:rolleyes:

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

Just to let you know guys it's not that differant in the rotary world. In the summer as a heli instructor I can do as many as 65 hrs in work a week over 5 days, doing maybe 20 hrs flying and my annual salary is something like 15-18 grand a year.

To be a heli flight instructor you will need to fork out about 60 grand 35 grand to commercial leval but no one will give you a job with less than 200 hrs, and yes everyone at that leval will work for nothing to get the hrs up.

Don't get me wrong flying is a great thing to do but a career ?? I personaly am looking else where for a job that pays better, and maybe leaving the industry if I can find another job I like and still afford to fly when I want.

The problem is I think is that managers know that if they get rid of one pilot they can just get another who will be more than happy to work for less, as long as there are more pilots than jobs this will continue.The problem however is that not all pilots are the same and lots of people out there with licences should not be in charge of a dishwasher let alone an aircraft with hundreds of people on. So how long till fix wing and rotary start falling out of the sky ?????????

[verticalhold]

Crazybroadsword is right about the rotary industry. I am a heli charter pilot. Often find myself struggling with weather, pax, AC snags and all the rest. Fortunately because our side of the industry is so small pilots and ops will back each other up across company divides. However when the impossible has been achieved the thanks is minimal and the pay would definately make a self employed plumber weep. (at least 2 have told me they wouldn't do my job/hours for my money) And if it all goes horribly wrong it is usually VERY HIGH PROFILE because of the nature of the customers.

Aviation is bloody cut throat and will remain so. Maybe its about time we pilots started cutting some throats:E

[HIALS]

I am 45 years old, with 13,000 hours and a double digit seniority number. I am a senior captain, flying wide-body Airbus. I could give 15 more years to this industry. But, I have reached the dispirited stage and (mercifully) the dispassionate age where I have decided to 'vote with my feet' and leave aviation for something more meaningful.

My disenchantment has been carefully generated by the tone and style of the airlines I have worked for. I don't want to be treated especially well, and don't need to be revered or applauded. I just want some courtesy and common respect. I am a person of reasonable intelligence, acceptable aptitude and dedicated application. I like to think that I am representative of a good (not perfect) and diligent employee. Sadly it's not enough.

I no longer have much tolerance for demeaning treatment; stupid SOP's; 'dumbing-down' our occupation; and, the creeping, incremental disregard for genuinely well-intentioned employees.

[PAXboy]

HIALS don't need to be revered or applauded. I just want some courtesy and common respect. That was neatly put. I have not quoted the whole of your second paragraph but have kept it on file. I have been saying the exact same thing about the telecomms business for the past decade or so. In leaving it behind, I know that there are plenty of young [natch!] people to take my place and will work for less and make jokes about a middle aged old twit who was living in an old era.

The differance is that telecommunications does not carry the risks of an airline. Therefore, the airline world is in more serious trouble. In due course, people will die. I can say that, because that is what human beings do. They allow things to slide until ... they slide off onto the deck. The Hatfield rail crash in England is a fine example. It was all avoidable but it was not avoided and people died.

[d246]

So TDF an airline Captain in the past was rewarded in a way that reflected his qualification and experience. But surely the laws of supply and demand must, in a free market set these levels, if indeed it was difficult and demanding to be a pilot then the qualification would be relatively scarce and thus expensive? You cannot compare flying with the professions. There are no minimum qualifications to become a pilot; indeed many would struggle to achieve A levels. A few multi question papers from the CAA or FAA hardly rank with the degrees required by doctors, lawyers and accountants most of whom regard your salaries with envy. The ‘closed shop’ fiddles, expenses and grotesque salaries of the past have been rumbled, the low cost operators have established that pilots are (almost) two a penny.
‘Selfish, Greedy Airline Owners, CEO’s and Managers’ have spoilt the party heh, well for long enough they have seen you and your unions as selfish and greedy now the boot is on the other foot and pilots like so many of the ‘protected species’ of the past have to face the real world. Companies do not exist for the benefit of their employees and airlines do not exist for the benefit of pilots.
‘Professional decision making has been taken away from the Captain’ What on earth does that mean? Since when did pilots make commercial decisions or indeed decisions on anything not directly connected with the operation of the aircraft? All you can do apparantly is throw your toys around and sabotage your company, not the way professionals behave.
Your comments on fatigue may well be valid, but you must expect the companies to work to the legislated limits they are not benevolent societies, truth be told little has changed in this respect aviation has always been hard work.
‘Many pilots in the company I’m with are angry and are looking to leave, yet they can’t find a better job to go to at the moment’ says it all really.

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

d246, in the UK at least the Flight Time Limitations were formulated with some flex, at the behest of airlines, so that in an emergency the airline would be able to operate despite staff shortages. The idea was that a short term bug, or hiring spree by another carrier, would not cripple the companies' flying programmes. As I recall, it then took about 6 weeks before the first operators publicly stated "we roster to CAP371 limits."
Had I been in the CAA then, I would have followed this with a statement "companies who operate in accordance with the letter, but not the spirit, of safety legislation will attract extra scrutiny from the Flight Ops Inspectors."
For shorthaul operation, CAP 371 allows slightly more than a healthy amount of work- working to this level over a long enough period will seriously damage the health of many aircrew.

[doublewasp]

D246, HIALS,

You have both put, eloquently and without agression, the sentiment I was trying to express. For many, flying is a passion, for others a worthwhile and valuable profession. For a few, it is a refuge for the dusty soul and the empty head.

I do fly for a living, I do love my job, but I will stop, without complaint, the moment it becomes my prison.

[Ignition Override]

Flying can also be a refuge for those who don't want to work for a real boss, and can't stand the idea of office politics and kissing someone's bum (ass) to get ahead. Seniority creates a numerical sequence as a substitute for social cliques and company politics, even "affirmative action". There have been some smaller US airlines, both passenger and freight, where seniority was not always used. But these were non-union.

Airline pilots have no liability insurance, which has become almost unaffordable for thousands of US doctors. If we screw up bad, or even try to cover something up which ended ok for the plane and passengers, our career is over.:hmm:

[RAT 5]

d246;

I have no idea where your I.D comes from: but I do see your registration is this week. Thus I conclude you are a newbee. From your comments you are also a knobee: i.e. someone who knows diddly squat about what they are talking.

If you have ever read the conditions, or needed to apply for the job of an airline pilot with a major company in any major developed country, you will have noted the need to have substanstial academic qualifications, as well as considerable personal characteristics of team skills, good communications, leadership qualities, ability to digest mulit-path data and arrive at a concise decision. These are the requirements listed in the advertisments and application forms for the above mentioned airlines. Often, a higher than normal level of education, even university, is also required. After achieving all that at your own expense & endeavour, there is the hurdle of gaining the pilot qualification at your own expense. At the end of that, the selection subjects you to a process consisting of physco tests, team tests, coordination tests, flying ability tests, multiple interviews and more. The whole process can take 5 days or more over a period of 4 weeks, also at your own expense.
If you are lucky enough to jump through these hoops you might earn your wings and be lablled as a co-pilot. and depending on the airline, be entrenched there for many a year.
When, after some years experience has been gained, and the promotion tests have been passed, you then win your command. This is s stressful pass/fail matter. It can effect your whole future. If you fail you cannot just jump ship and go somewhere else. For many reasons you may be stuck where you are; a middle manager for life. If you succeeed, you will then be tasked to make most of the decisions about the operation. True, on the ground, most commercial decisions will be made by ops, but once in the air you are on your own. You call it as you think fit; and live by it afterwards. That is what you are paid for. The buck stops in the left seat, and don't forget it. Commercial decisions as well.

So, in the light of the above, let us once again review your statement:

"if indeed it was difficult and demanding to be a pilot then the qualification would be relatively scarce and thus expensive? You cannot compare flying with the professions."

"There are no minimum qualifications to become a pilot; indeed many would struggle to achieve A levels. A few multi question papers from the CAA or FAA hardly rank with the degrees required by doctors, lawyers and accountants most of whom regard your salaries with envy."

"Professional decision making has been taken away from the Captain’ What on earth does that mean? Since when did pilots make commercial decisions or indeed decisions on anything not directly connected with the operation of the aircraft?"

By these statements, full of twaddle, you identify yourself as ignorant, biased, anti pilot and woefully misinformed. I stop short of pronnouncing you crassly pathetic as this would lower myself to your level, and I would hate for this discussion to enter the realms of personalities rather than issues. Thus I will keep it at the level of hoping you spend a some more time at the coal face and discussing matters with the troops, before you belittle their contributions. It is sad that one so self procaliming as you can not understand that the one group of employees who will work their damndest to keep a company going are the flight crew. It is the arogant management, with short-term imagination, who tip airlines over the cliff, not the crews with long-term careers at stake.

Rant over, and I'm going to bed. Over the years I've debated much on this subject. Nothing seems to have improved, but these henious commencts of d246 could not go unanswered. I am now going on holiday for 7 weeks, and when I return I hope NOT to read similar threads on prune. They have been going on for years. PLEASE, direct your energies to doing something to right these wrongs on the front line. Prune has just replaced all the bar-room B.S. I heard for 25 years. A great place to let off steam and achieve naff all. Be BOLD & stick you head above the parapets, or shut up. Do not vote with your feet. That is not democracy. The bad guys should walk the plank.

[MungoP]

For those not qualified to sit in the front two seats of a passenger carrying aircraft there are two types of pilots:

Type 1: The dinner party pilot..... Overpaid, underworked, glamorised, spoon-fed and dependant on automated electronics to do the job..........

Type 2: The pilot who is flying these d*ckhead wallys to their holiday destinations when the weather is totally crap, the aircraft is suffering a major systems failure and there is still four hours to go over a gale swept ocean.....

If the self loading cargo were told that only by offering a vast financial incentive to the guys at the front could their quivering backsides be saved I wonder how much the pilots would be worth then......

[Dogma]

Rat 5,

You beat me to it. D246 is replying to his own posts:ugh:

Liked the bit about not being comparable to the professions. I know a number of people over the years whom have come from the professions to pursue an ATPL qualification and had to work has hard as the rest of us to acheve the desired results. In fact, one doctor told me it was the most inhumane exam process he had ever experienced.

I think pilots have earned their place in history. The public love their pilots! Love their Lawyers... I think not:8

[ZQA297/30]

What surprises me is how quickly all the pontificators on the "pilots are busdrivers" subject become instantly tongue tied and subdued when the aircraft does anything in the slightest bit unusual.
Having sat next to a pilot basher whilst returning from duty, I was highly amused to see him stop in mid-sentence grip the seat-arm, and tense up with just a slight shake from CAT.
He stayed quiet for the rest of the flight, which was most welcome.

[Wedge]

Although the grass is always greener, take a step back and you will see you do a job most people (like me) would have loved to have done.

It's the best job in the world, bar none. And the SLF still think of pilots as pretty sexy people actually ;)

[skyclamp]

RAT 5

Well said old man.
Your posts are always well researched and most informative.
You don't have to say you have experience in this business, it SHOWS from your wise words.
Enjoy your holiday.


d246

Yours is a world where twaddle takes precedence over facts.
You are over-misinformed enough for me/us not to be able to debate anything with you.
Why not sit back and read a bit about being a pilot, a captain, and what it's REALLY like to break into this profession, then staying with it! The best sources for you to read from are the very contributors to this forum the real boys and girls that fly for a living. It's very easy to tell which ones are genuine and which aren't!

[ZQA297/30]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Being a pilot is easy, but then so is being a doctor, accountant, lawyer, or businessman.

How hard is it to say take two aspirin and call me in the morning, I could do that.

How hard is it to add up columns of numbers, I used to do that all the time.

How hard is it to dress up in a frilly wig and say I object. I could do that.

And to sit behind a big desk, look fierce, and say more productivity, less cost. Heck I could do that.

Then again, I always wanted to play with rockets, and I can count backwards from 10 to 1, I think I'll just be off to the launch pad.

I really don't know what all the fuss is about.

;-)

[Dogma]

ZQA297/30,

I hear what you are saying but you guys must be SkyGods. I have flown heavies around the world for 7 years now and I must say there have been many times when I have been under pressure and well tested. Even flying around Europe has its own challenges.

Maybe I am just unlucky, but it is in my view a very demanding career:sad:

[ZQA297/30]

Sorry Dogma, you missed the irony.
My point is that flying is only easy to those who have little or no in depth knowledge.
Like saying I can drive a Metro so I could be Schumaker if I wanted, all you have to do is steer and keep hard down on the accelerator. How hard can that be?

[Kaptin M]

Yes, I`m in total agreement with you, ZQA297/30, ANY job is easy when you watch professionals who have been trained, and then done it for years.
Thje difference between a professional pilot`s daily routine, and other professionals, is that generally, the daily routine for a pilot is not routinely the same.
It`s as changeable as the weather.

And for our poster who seems to have a few feather ruffled, MY exams were not all multi-choice.
The majority required the old-fashioned, long-winded calculations and/or essays.

Yes, some have been "dumbed down" to multi-choice status, but then so have many other professions` exams!

[Loose rivets]

Suddenly there was the explosive tearing of metal, and the flesh of two hundred and sixty nine people was instantly compressed into the forward cabin of the stricken airliner. Two huge engines, sheared from their mountings, reached Mach 1.4 before exploding into a densely populated part of the city. The remaining debris and fuel started fires over five square miles of housing. The remains of the other aircraft spiraled onto a hospital, causing the almost complete destruction of the building.

It is thought that one of the pilots made an elementary mistake in selecting what is know as an assigned altitude. "It's the sort of mistake I make daily, while working on my office computer." said one observer.

Money for old rope, this job of ours.

[Sunfish]

As I said earlier, you guys make it look too easy. The times I've visited a cockpit (as I sit in the back) all I've seen is a couple of apparently bored pilots filling out paperwork and trying to change altitude to get better winds. The autopilot is doing the flying, the INS is doing the navigating, the autothrottle is auto throttling and so on.

Little did I know until I read this thread that this was all a carefully staged illusion to bolster the travelling public's sense of wellbeing.

I didn't realise that underneath the light and casual banter about the size of the new young FA's **ts, two steely eyed professionals were engaged in a knife edge balancing act to get us to LHR in one peice... Or something like that anyway.

Maybe you need to "jazz up" the cockpit act so that the bean counters think they are getting value for money. .:}

[ZQA297/30]

Not a staged illusion sunfish, but the result of careful planning and preparation by a team of pros.
Most eventualiities have been thought of and planned for before the aircraft started to move.
Even the unplanned will cause no more than the obligatory expletive, and to the casual observer, a few terse words and some calm and measured actions.
The hollywood stereotype of two agitated pilots (wearing headsets over caps) industriously jiggling controls, and yelling into handmikes at even more agitated tower controllers is more like your staged illusion.
The lack of drama does not mean it is easy, but is the result of much professional training and experience.

[Kaptin M]

You need to concentrate on going first solo, Sunfish...but you`re right, with exposure to the job - any job - a professional is able to watch for trends, whilst carrying out other chores.

We review regularly, during EVERY flight, items that might need "jazzing up", or others that demand more immediate attention.

Just because the aircraft is established in cruise/climb/descent, there`s no guarantee that the status quo will remain so, either by choice, or out of necessity.
Two days ago, due to a sudden wind change - but with no physical effect felt - the airspeed increased by some 40 knots during cruise in a time frame of 4-5 seconds, and required IMMEDIATE, ACTIVE intervention on the part of the crew :D to override the autothrottle, to prevent the aircraft exceeding MMo.
The pax, of course knew nothing - however, had our attention NOT been on what was going on - as it probably would have appeared, to the casual cockpit visitor - this was another instance for the possibility of structural aircraft damage, at the least.

Reckon I`ll do some music conducting on my next day OFF - haven`t had any training, but anyone can hold a baton, and wave his arms arounds - after all the orchestra already knows what they`ve got to do!! ;)

[BenThere]

In my 28 years of flying I have:

Travelled to just about every corner of the world
Flown combat lit by enemy radar
Commanded an air force flying squadron
Lived on peanuts and spaghetti waiting for the airlines to hire me
Flown overnight freight days on end, fatigued as a zombie
Had an engine explode at max gross weight at 800 feet
Had friends die
Lost captain seat in company downsizing
Got hired into dream job with a major in my 40's
Got furloughed to the street after 9/11
Loved every minute of it

Would I trade my experience with flying for anything else?

Absolutely not.

Would I, as a young man today, given current prospects go into professional aviation?

Absolutely not.

An interesting feature of the pilot profession is how some guys go straight through to the wide-body left seat with no turmoil while others have a career with nothing but setbacks and uncertainty. All this having nothing to do with talent.

[Wiley]

I haven't read all of the thread, so apologies if I'm repeating what's been said already. Sunfish and others, with rather ham-fisted attempts at irony, you comment on how easy the job is, and how you know this to be so because when you've been allowed to visit the flight deck, the crew are doing not very much at all.

I would have thought that someone as obviously as intelligent as yourself (sorry, couldn't resist an attempt at some ham-fisted irony of my own) would have quite quickly come to the conclusion that you wouldn't have been invited on to the flight deck unless it was in a period in the cruise when not very much was happening at all.

I can remember flying with a captain a very long time ago who said that the greatest compliment he had ever been paid was by a five year old who visited the cockpit and loudly proclaimed: "But you're not doing anything!" He said that if he appeared to be not doing anything, he was obviously ahead of the game, which is exactly where he always wanted to be.

People have often asked me whether it's boring flying long haul. I have two answers to that question. The first: "Yes, but you have no idea how much work we put into keeping it boring, 'cause in an aeroplane, boring is good." The other, to people I know a little better, is: "So, if you're flying off on your annual holiday, who would you prefer at the controls of the aeroplane taking you there, two pilots who are bored to snores because nothing out of the ordinary is happening, (quite possibly because they've carefully planned for it to be so), or two guys on the very edge of their seats barely coping with a succession of critical problems?"

The most frequent reply to that last question is: "I'd never thought of it that way."

My wife just underwent a very complex operation and the surgeon gave her a video of the op. as a memento. He made it look like a piece of the proverbial, a completely no-sweat procedure that went without a hitch. I know that that particular procedure wasn't even possible as little as six years ago (thanks in part to laproscopes (sp?) and micro cameras).

I'm not likening my job to that of a surgeon's, but I think the similarities in the perceptions of an observer to a job done with skill and minimal dramatics holds true.

[ManfredvonRichthofen]

I very nearly became a commercial pilot - i didn't just think about it, i actually had sponsorship with a an airline, but ultimately decided against it. With that in mind....

Benthere just summed it up really neatly for me

"Would I trade my experience with flying for anything else?

Absolutely not.

Would I, as a young man today, given current prospects go into professional aviation?

Absolutely not. "


back in the day, I'd have gone for it. But this brave new world is not a happy one for the airline pilot. I was told this by pilots. I put a lot of thought into it myself and came up with that conclusion independently. And i think its only going to get worse.

Do i get bored at work ? yep
Did I nevertheless make the right choice ? for me, definitely

:8

[Yorks.ppl]

the following is not ironic, sarcastic, or anything else, just plain speaking.

I am a fairly recently qualified PPL and sometimes SLF.
From my humble perspective flying comercial aircraft seems an incredibly complex operation.
The level of understanding and mental agility required to both plan and execute flights safely and punctually seems to me to be enormous.
To say that pilots can't be compared to the proffesions is unbelievable nonsense, I'm in no way nocking GPs
but when they get stuck they refer to a specialist, some weeks later at that, wouldnt fancy that kind of response during an airborn emergency!
I just dont get why anybody reading this forum would seek to be dismisive of what is involved in being a profesional pilot.

So for what little its worth, profesional pilots you have my utmost respect (and that of every other private flyer I have ever talked to):ok:

[ILS 119.5]

Unfortunately in the past passengers have visited us in the cruise which is "as it may look" our quiet period. They seem to have this perception that we are not doing anything, but we are. We are monitoring the equipment on a 35k ton aircraft carrying 300 people to ensure nothing goes wrong and in the event that it does go wrong we are ready and skilled enough to handle the situation. What visitors do not see is the workload before and during departure also the workload on arrival and after landing. They do not see our attention to detail nor our ability to carry out many tasks at one time using our brains and manual dexterity. I studied very hard for my profession and I also have a degree in physics. Believe me it is harder to be a pilot.
The reason why the profession (including controllers) is being belittled is due to air transport being safer, more people use it as a frequent way of travelling and the management see us as expendable staff. I hope one day that my bosses will be on board when we have a decompression over the pond with a subsequent engine failure and divert. I'm sure then they will value my profession then. For those of you who do not value our profession, then why do you fly? Could you deal with one of the revers thrusters deploying after take off? We can because we are highly trained professionals. Our profession is compared to other high ranking professions due to responsibility not qualifications. Look up the defination of "professional". One definition is "engaging in an activity as a means of livelehood" Profession means "an occupation requiring special training".
Our job as professional pilots is to get safely from a to b, our special training allows us to do this and deal with any unusual situation which may arise during our trip.
I would not advise any young person to come into the aviation business due to the way we are treated. 30 years ago when I first joined it was great, highly admired and a great way of dating the girls. Not any more.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

[headyheights]

380 SPOT ON.

I believe that the problem outlined here has become increasingly worse over the past 5 years or so.

I embarked on flying training in the late 90's where even then being an Airline Pilot was one of the best paid professions around. Today I feel that Airline Pilots are still regarded as being highly trained professionals. I have many friend s that come from respected professions such as doctor, lawyer, surgeon's etc and they are all in awe and fascinated by the role of an Airline Pilot. Yet I could earn the same amount labouring on a building site.

It must be recognised that the initial and recurrent training for a pilot is a very specialised skill and the experience held by Airline Pilot's today is a credit to their professional aptitude. Therefore why are salaries and conditions going down. Many pilots I know are not even proud of their profession any more and consider themselves to be a lower status to many other professions out there. This attitude has to stop. It is these people that are willing to lie down and take the s*!t, work for free, pay for type ratings etc that will destroy our profession.

I have noticed that in small flying clubs there are very few young guns coming through aspiring to be airline pilots any more. I know many cadets from a major british airline have now left flying to embark on other carriers. If I was a school leaver now I would not go into flying I would pursue more lucrative carriers.

I hate to sound like a money grabbing communist but good T & C are the key to a happy home life and carrier.

380 also made comments on the way companies put pressure on crew to push the limits on different aspects of their jobs. I myself have worked for some real cowboy outfits (corporate airline in Oxfordshire being one) I have witnessed crews being intimidated by just one guy - The Ops Manager. Because the O M was friends with the MD he thought he had the power to make the crews work out of duty, non-stop standby cancel leave etc. Whenever a crew member contested this the O M just went running to his little MD friend with a fabricated story and the crew member would be labelled as a militant and disciplined. In one case a young FO that stood up for himself over moral and safety matters was sacked. I know that all the other crews aggreed with the FO but didn't speak up when it mattered. Therefore the poor young lad had no back up, not even from the cheif pilot.

The problem is that there are to many soft guys that will just stick their heads in the sand and let the poor conditions get worse. They all moan but never do anything about it.

I am not militant myself. I realise that we work for someone else and airlines are businesses. Therefore there has to be a capitalist mentality. But if pilots stop doing things like offer, I repeat offer to pay for type ratings airlines will realise that type rated guys are hard to come by in the big scheme of things and therefore the airline will fear the cost of retraining new guys. This would mean airlines would be nice to the crews to keep them happy so they stay. It would also stop the guys getting there first jobs and having to pay for type ratings after they have already sold their souls to the banks!

Its the old ideal of you treat us nice, we'll treat you nice - every ones happy in a freindly profitable company.

Poor T & C's can kill a firm. People start bitching and moaning which winds every one elso up. Also people are less willing to put their necks on the line to get the job done.

May be I'm living in dolly daydream land and my happy comfort zone will never be achieved but I just think that a happy workforce equals a very productive workforce.

[Sunfish]

Wiley, you are absolutely right, I never thought of it that way.

I have always had admiration for professional pilots. A C172 is about the limit of my skills anyway.

[Sawbones]

Sad to read the comments of so many who quite evidently no longer enjoy their chosen career as professional pilots.

At 51 years of age, 18,000+ hours I've certainly had my share of .. "excitement" .. as well as my share of career-related aggravation. Airline life today is certainly not what it has been. No question however, for me it's all been extremely worthwhile and entirely satisfying. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

I cannot relate to some of the younger FOs I fly with who seem so disgruntled with life. Right seat on an Airbus is still a pretty enviable position, and the view from the office is spectacular ... if you bother to look outside once in awhile.

And still, to paraphrase Ernest K. Gann, the subtle pleasures derived from a well handled approach and landing under difficult conditions are still a source of extreme satisfaction.

Sorry so many chaps seem to have lost that pleasure.

[Sonic Zepplin]

Kaptain M

You are very much correct in your answer.

But then again I have always said, those that don't, can only imagine they understand. I know it, you know it, and anyone else that sits in the pointy end knows it. The rest are imposters.

Why waste the time with them, I don't any more. I got tired trying to explain something that I know they will never understand. I just smile and shake my head, and say you can only imagine. :rolleyes:

[guybrush]

Hello all!

I just want to comment on some points.

Not everyone will be happy with flying. Not everyone will be happy to be a lawyer or a cook or an engineer or a manager or a plumber. Accordingly, those who left piloting could be those who simply found that flying isn't their cup of tea. They have every right not be satisfied in it and leave it when they wish (assuming they can), but I kindly ask them not to blame the job for that, it negatively affects us pilot wannabes. :O

Also, why do you always compare flying to jobs you lable "professions"? What's wrong with a bus drivers or plumbers or waiters. They are humans like you and me and there is nothing wrong with these jobs (lets not forget that some of us were/are in these jobs at some point of our lives). Every person works and earns a living and we should show some respect for that whether it is a plumber or pilot. :D

cheers:ok:
guybrush

[Sonic Zepplin]

In this regard I agree, we are all people trying to make a living.

But, least we forget. As a pilot, or an aspiring pilot in the states, for you to be employed by any major carrier, fractional operation, or corporation, in addition to your ATPL, you will also require a degree from a university.

The operative word being "in addition to"

After University expense and expense of ATPL, to include time, you would have a better career putting you expertise toward a career that is quite frankly not subject to the level of sacrifice of aviation.

I love to fly and always will, but at mid career, I look at the sacrfice, and can say after the continued degridation of T&C the career is not one I would choose, but the passion lives on.

I wouldnt try to stear someone away from their dreams, only offer insight.

[Ignition Override]

Rat5 and other pilots' comments were excellent.

Many laymen who comment on Pprune forums realize it and often admit it when they are a bit "unaware" of other professions' high demands, realities and decision-making, required by the one profession to which thousands of Ppruners belong. Could it be an actual background in higher-performance IFR flying (not just in Florida), which requires very much difficult study, testing, application of procedures (both in the sim and real airplane) and judgement (which can not always be taught), plus a competent management team which does not force pilots to fly unairworthy machines, in order to create the desired impressions? The aircraft which thousands of us fly have no automation, nor FMC and only two pilots. A guy I flew with a few days ago recently had one of two engines go to pieces right when they lifted off from the runway. There are no buttons to push to make the plane fly, whether with one or two engines, just a crammed layout of switches and gauges, sort of like a BAC-111.

Others here on Pprune combine ignorance with condescension and a bit of arrogance. What a classic combination.

This is an equal opportunity business. Anyone is welcome to go earn the qualifications and compete with thousands of other applicants for limited openings. As was said somewhere years ago, in response to wannabes who complain about the (now ever-shrinking) salaries at major airlines, you might die while working for the (or unwilling to join?) military or in the civilian world, just to build up a competitive background. I suspect that many wannabes click on to Pprune just to try and get even with those who made the early decision to work their butts/bums off, costing many thousands of dollars/pounds, and were very fortunate with timing, the economy and their ability to pass many medical exams, which never stop (like bad weather) coming around.

As for the purported comments by some laymen that pilots just sit there during cruise and discuss the female anatomy (:)), a furloughed Delta pilot told me in person Thursday night at DFW that he gives sim and line checks to brand-new FOs at a US regional carrier which flies CRJs. A recent new guy tried to quit his career as (CPA) accountant and earned quickly all of his ratings-but then worked for the (in?)famous GULFSTREAM AIRLINES flying Beech 1900s in Florida. Did he also pay for the FO experience? Anyway, the very unfortunate guy did not pass either sim training or line flying because, despite a little flying in a twin turboprop, he had flown very little IFR, or at least real approaches, based on what the Instructor Pilot told me. Add on to that your first exposure to an FMC (whether a good tng syllabus, I have no idea), a rushed groundschool + sim schedule (maybe tighter training budgets due to higher fuel prices?), followed by a much faster turbofan and it could easily be overwhelming. And so we return to where we simply sit on our rear end in cruise flight (MELs, systems which don't quite look right, adequate fuel for the growing weather?)...how about on 5 legs in weather during a (very common) 12-hour duty period, with almost no chance to eat without compounding the next already delayed departure for 115 passengers, who are now waiting on your hungry/tired crew at your third aircraft of the day (assuming that we have a guaranteed meal break?), requiring another very thorough "originating preflight"? :ugh: The words arrogance and ignorance for many laymens' assumptions glow like a neon sign on a 'rainy night in Georgia'.

[ZQA297/30]

Guybrush
I would hazard a guess that 95% of those who complain still love flying.
The problem is that we came into a profession (note;profession) with certain expectations based on observation.
We expected the basics to remain the same or even improve gradually over time.
The thing is, having made a significant investment in money, time, and effort, we have found that recently things have gone to hell in a basket.
That is valid cause for complaint no matter how dedicated you are.

I call it a profession because it requires very specialist training, and it takes about ( and often more than) 7 years to become adequately trained and experienced to command anything other than small aircraft.

[TDF380]

It seems the majority of the replies to my original post agree, or has experienced the eroding of pay and conditions as I have.

Firstly I did not write this post expecting the CEO’s, airline owners, or management to read my concerns and to change things. But I needed to vent my anger and concerns, and hear what others thought of the way the industry was going.

Safety Guy

Yes things are that bad with my Airline and I believe many others. If I was to stand down, or refuse to go into Captains discretion my contract would be terminated. Maybe not on paper for that reason, but I would be down the road, or labeled a trouble maker with management gunning for me. Its not by choice I fly fatigued, it’s to keep my job.

In regard to retirement plans our company does not have one. Is that another eroding of conditions, of coarse I’ve read many reports of people loosing their retirement funds. Are you protected if an airline declares itself bankrupt, or goes into chapter 11, or just states they do not have sufficient funds to payout everyone’s retirement fund due to a bad investment.

Joyce Tick

When you cannot stand yourself or your crew down due to fatigue,
When you cannot refuse to extend your duty time into ‘Commanders Discretion’,
When you cannot refuse to take an aircraft with a known fault, (illegal but operationally safe)
When you cannot take extra fuel above the computer generated flight plan,

All without intimidation and threat of contract termination. You can hardly make professional decisions, more like compromises to save your job and career, to the detriment of safety to the aircraft and your passengers.

Also Dogma is right, it is more difficult to act professionally when your fatigued, low moral.


Guybrush

Yes they should reduce management’s huge salaries and lead by example. They should not increase their salaries, and / or vote themselves bonuses while preaching to their staff how revenues are down, and pay cuts are necessary, and no it would not solve the company’s financial problems.
The fact is airline management should be increasing airfares to a realistic level, not cutting all their staffs pay and conditions (29 GBP London – Berlin return, 19 GBP London – Paris return) no wonder their revenues are down, no wonder their staff are paid cr@p. How about managements pay.

The only way you can justify their huge salaries is if they were to take responsibility for their actions, as pilots are.
E.g. If the CEO, BOD, DFO increase your hours up to regulation maximums (as many airlines have including my own) [are they meant to be maximum temporarily to keep the schedule going due unforeseen resignations, or maximum to be rostered every year]
Then the pilots complain of operating fatigued. Management ignore fatigue and rostering concerns. An aircraft has a serious accident; the accident investigation report cites fatigue and heavy rostering as one of many factors. The Captain faces charges of manslaughter. Shouldn’t the CEO, BOD, and DFO also face charges of manslaughter? If not how can you justify such high salaries and bonuses for no risk or accountability. (i.e. 4x, 6x Captain B744 salary or more).

What salary do you expect to make in 10 years time, 20 years time. Now if management cut that by say 30%, and cut some of your allowances after you’ve been in the company for a few years, are you still going to be as excited and upbeat as now about being an airline pilot.
You’ve read these forums and all the complaints. At least you know what you are getting into. When I started I didn’t know things would get this bad.

Skyclamp

Not a bad idea. One ton per flight, approx, 4 flights per week, 16 flights per month = 4800 GBP ($9000 USD) per month extra fuel burnt. You do not need to take extra fuel above the company flight plan, that’s what the contingency fuel is there for. Maybe we should use it.

Will it get my pay and conditions back No, but at least the management shafting myself, my profession, my career, my livelihood and my family won’t get as big a bonus for cost cutting. How long can we continue to act professional when our management treat us like a liability to the company and shaft us accordingly?

To the other flippant comments made (no id’s mentioned)

I suspect you are either;

1 Non pilots
2 Pilot management
3 Management
4 Working for one of the few decent airlines remaining (as mentioned in the original post) if so please advise which airline you work for. We would like to apply. I’m sure you wouldn’t mind your management finding out you ID; it could mean a pay cut and rapid promotion.
5 Captain on MS Flight Simulator 2004 (B747-400)

I like ZQA297/30’s encounter with a load mouthed passenger.

This job has hours of boredom in the cruise, plus hours more boredom in hotel rooms.
However I believe those commenting on how easy the job is, twiddling a few knobs in the cruise, actually know little about it. Certainly doing an approach into an airport with foul weather, high terrain, unfamiliar ATC procedures after an 8 – 16 hour flight while fatigued I would not call easy.

Or been descended below MSA near high terrain by the controller as he’s tired, or at one of the many airports throughout the world where ATC standards are well below what many would expect acceptable. Perhaps you only fly domestic in the Southwest of the USA.

Or you took CFP fuel because of company policy, or the MZFW would not allow more, or your company frowns upon offloading pax or freight to decrease the ZFW. Then 500nm from destination which is reporting marginal weather, and so is your fuel alternate. Your going to arrive with 200kg above your minimum divert fuel. You do not know how much holding to expect. Do you divert to an enroute alternate, with no agent, they don’t speak your language, there may be no one certified to dispatch your aircraft type, and as you’re rostered right up to max duty time, you may exceed your max allowable discretion if you tried to refuel and make your destination, or the paxs will have to be found hotel accommodation, or remain on the aircraft for over 12 hours until you can continue, because they do not have visas. Easy job isn’t it, just twiddle a few knobs.

Your aircraft has an uncontrollable engine fire, or cargo hold fire, or engine disintegrated, rupturing a fuel line, with associated fire. Would you consider it easy to decide whether to ditch in the middle of the ocean, or continue to the nearest airport and risk the wing burning through?

If you had a fuel leak, or uncontrollable fire, would you land at the nearest airport, 100M vis, no ILS serviceable on the into wind runway, 30 kt wind in blowing snow. Braking action medium or poor, Would you try to land on the into wind runway using a VOR approach, or extend your approach from the other direction taking a 20Kt tailwind for an ILS, or fly to another airport 100nm further on. Your wings on fire, will you make it, will you see the runway, will you skid off the end, there’s no auto land available. I don’t think that would be easy. Go and think about that for a couple of hours, ask the load mouthed passenger, but get back to us soon because you can’t sleep on it.

I doubt your are an airline pilot at all. You certainly have not had to make any real decisions. Maybe you are paid what your worth.

But I feel relieved to think there are passengers in the back like you I could call up by PA to take over as it’s so easy for you.
Or relieved to think I could just do a PA asking any passenger with MS Flight Simulator 2004 time (B747-400 preferably) to come up and twiddle a few buttons and get us on the ground safely. What is the airline captain or FO trained for, and paid for, not twiddling a few buttons in the cruise.
Now to get serious again.

Firemen are not paid their salary to sit around the station waiting for a fire; they’re paid to fight fires if and when they occur. Yet they are expected to train and be ready for that occurrence, but if there are no fires, then they are paid to sit around at the station.
Soldiers are not paid to march around in circles, and drive tanks around the countryside, but that’s what they do until they’re called upon. Is that your perception of them though?
It’s not mine.

CRM courses and Command training generally push the fact that you are not just a pilot, but you have to be a manager to carry out your duties as expected by the airline.

While some of these scenarios are drastic and I have not, and hope I never have to make those decisions, can any of us guarantee we will not be confronted with something similar throughout our career? As to the less drastic scenarios, these types of decisions do happen, and you will have to justify your decisions to management.

It’s not always easy, it may end up damned difficult, and it’s made even more difficult by constant fatigue. I don’t take it for granted,
but management do.
So I think either the day to day, flight by flight, operational and safety decisions should be able to be made by the captain and crew of the flight, their pay and conditions should reflect this responsibility, and they should not be rostered to fly fatigued.
Otherwise let the CEO’s, BOD’s and management keep there huge salary’s, and should (God forbid) an accident occur, anonymously if required send in all memos, operation orders, letters of intimidation relating to the safe operation of the airline to the victims lawyers and let them be accountable in a Court of Law.

I also strongly believe the relevant CAA’s, FAA’s, and DCA’s of the world should also be held accountable if their extensions to duty time are causing fatigue among crew, that contributes to an accident.
They seem more likely to target a light aircraft that wandered into controlled airspace without a clearance, endangering one or two conflicting aircraft, or an owner of a homebuilt doing a low pass over his friends house in the countryside, endangering only his own life (no not me, just an example), yet they allow 10,000 – 20,000 air transport aircraft to fly throughout the world each day, many with fatigued crew, endangering 5 million paxs.
As I said in the original post, either make CAP371 mandatory, or remove it completely, they know only a handful of airlines abide by it.

Finally to those who say ‘If you don’t like it vote with your feet’, I intend to, but at a time I choose, not when my company sacks me.
I’m sure I’ll keep reading PPrune occasionally just to confirm I’ve made the right decision. I’m sure there will be many pilots complaining how bad things are in ten years time, and I’ll be able to say; well you knew what you were getting into, just look at the PPrune forums in 2004.

[Kaptin M]

TDF380, I wonder how much of this:-
"When you cannot stand yourself or your crew down due to fatigue,
When you cannot refuse to extend your duty time into ‘Commanders Discretion’,
When you cannot refuse to take an aircraft with a known fault, (illegal but operationally safe)
When you cannot take extra fuel above the computer generated flight plan,
All without intimidation and threat of contract termination.",
is a REAL threat, or whether you perceive that there will be repercussions, by exercising your authority as a Commander.

By NOT exercising your legal authority to stand down due to fatigue, refuse to operate an aircraft that MUST be grounded, fail to take extra fuel - even if it means offloading pax and/or freight, etc, etc, YOU are at fault.
You are KNOWINGLY placing the aircraft, and its occupants in danger, and YOU will be the one who will wear the full consequences of any investigation!

You MUST either insist on your decision being followed, or, resign as a Captain - for the Safety of your crew, your pax, and yourself.
Finally to those who say ‘If you don’t like it vote with your feet’, I intend to, but at a time I choose, not when my company sacks me.You are assuming that you will continue through to that time without mishap - a mishap that will probably terminate your career altogether.
A little like the non-IFR rated pilot who flies into cloud, and is willing to push on "just that little bit further", hoping for a break....but instead flies into a mountain.

If the company you work for are as bad as you believe them to be, then rest assured, they will not stand by YOU in any inquiry, and naturally they are going to deny your allegations - allegations you are going to be forced to substantiate in court.

It's time, TDF380!
Time for YOU to either take a stand, and be the responsible Captain you are licenced by the authorities, and employed by the company to be, or to RESIGN!

All the best with your decision.
Your future, and that of the aviation industry rides on it!

[TDF380]

Kaptin M,

Perhaps you work for one of the better airlines around. If everyone who worked for an airline such as mine was to resign due safety concerns, there would be thousands more pilots out of work. (a few hundred from my airline)
How would I support my family. Easy for you to say just resign, perhaps you could resign from your airline so I could take your spot, then you would be one of the hundreds without work. This culture has come from the managers and regulators of the industry.

Dont shoot the messenger.

As I said, you may not be fired immediately for refusing any one the points I mentioned, but someone has in my airline recently for the various reasons I mentioned.

There are many airlines throughout the world who do not operate to your airlines standards.

[turtleneck]

Calling for managers and CAA officers to take responsibility in this matter is on a real test: Look at Switzerland and the two Crossair accident investigations. The CEO (M. Suter) COO (A.Dosé) and the head of the Swiss FOCA (A. Auer) are officially indicted (of negligent killing, I believe). The attorney general is leading the investigation. Allthough I bet they will walk away unaffected, it is one of the first trials taking in not only pilots. The preliminary enquiry showed quite clearly, that by exercising his legal authority, this particular captain would have not flow, beeing fatigued, and would certainly not have busted the minimum. The accident would have most probably been avoided, however this captain would have been in a lot of trouble. Like so many other airlines, Crossair was notorious in hidden threats to pilots if they wouldn’t break every sensible rule to guarantee operations. Many testimonies now pop up to confirm this, as immunity is certain because all three suspects are no more in charge. To stand up and defend safety and legal barriers, it requires character and airmanship. If such was demonstrated, these airlines wouldn’t have hired the respective pilot in the first place (THAT’S the catch Kaptin M!). The problem starts with recruitement and training, very much a management and CAA thing. However, talent and character mean having alternatives to make reasonable money and training means money again and there you touch the nerve of business: It tends to hire the less gifted, but cheap and to train him only to serve the company. Controlling THAT is what CAA’s have been installed for and they fail miserably, mostly deliberately. Asking captains nowadays to stand down, refuse and exerce their legal authoritiy is about as realistic in many companies as to tell a Chinese or Iraqi to stand up and speak out loud for human rights and democracy. You can probably only accept or leave, but hardly change a well installed and almost corrupt system.

[Kaptin M]

It is quite ironic, yet fitting, I guess, that you, TDF380 as the initiator of this thread, "The DEMISEof the professional Pilot", are now - some 7 pages later - offering perhaps the REAL reason for that demise.
The fact is, you believe that your management are FORCING you to break Safety standards, and thus destroy the profession of pilot.
Imo, though, the buck stops with YOU.
It is YOU, TDF380 who is compromising your own standards, and creating the Safety hazard.
Stating that, "If everyone who worked for an airline such as mine was to resign due safety concerns, there would be thousands more pilots out of work." is YOUR way of justifying YOUR compromise of your own personal standard. if you have one!
Personally, I don't believe that there are "(a) few hundred from my airline" who are all too afraid to use their command authority.
This is your justification for not having the balls to take a stand......"So and so does it, so I had better too."

If you want to remain in professional aviation, it's time you grew a backbone - you might just be surprised to find that your company takes heed of the issues you raise, and of the respect and support you will get from your peers.
Make sure that your case is fireproof so that the authorities have enough ammunition to back you up, if it comes to a confrontation.
Asking captains nowadays to stand down, refuse and exerce their legal authoritiy is about as realistic in many companies as to tell a Chinese or Iraqi to stand up and speak out loud for human rights and democracy. Attitudes such as that expressed above are NOT those of a true PROFESSIONAL pilot, and only help to further LOWER standards, instead of maintain or raise them.

[Hotel Charlie]

Kaptin M,
Have You ever worked for one of the outfits TDF380 is talking about? If yes then fine, but if not, with all due respect: You do not know what you are talking about! In theory what you are saying is of course correct but in the real world...
We´ve been to CRM courses for the last 15 years and been told about all different kinds of threats like fatigue, changing sleep cycles, schedule pressure, little fuel ... You´ve all seen the list a hundred times! When it comes to the real day´s work all is forgotten by the managment. OK we´ve given them the CRM course, CAA is happy and now it´s back to running the airline! :ok:

[Kaptin M]

Ever been swimming in a public pool, Hotel Charlie?

Did you put your faith in the others swimming there, to NOT p!ss in the pool?

Did you, yourself, feel that same obligation to the other users?

[MungoP]

Why is it that on CRM courses we're bombarded with information about fatigue ?

We bl**dywell know all about fatigue...we suffer from it regularly....

It's not us who should be sitting there listening yet again to the latest results of another fascinating study on fatigue it's the management.....

Any chance of the CAA insisting that the management suffer a one month totally disrupted sleep pattern and then sit an exam on fatigue ?

[skyclamp]

Kaptin M

Although I understand your view regarding a RESPONSIBLE CAPTAIN.
And although I KNOW that that means ALWAYS making decisions with SAFETY first in mind, there is a bit about going into discretion and making decisions on a level that may harm a person PERSONALLY, that I believe you DO understand, but fail to confirm before us on this forum!

I don't for a minute feel that TDF380 is about to sell the SAFETY of his aircraft down the line for complying with "protocols" that are invisibly forced upon him.
He will go that extra mile because he knows that he CAN bring the flight to a satisfactory conclusion, BUT NOT COMFORTABLY!
And why should he if the hours to do it in, are publicised clearly.

You live in Aussie, where intimidation may be upside down for us.
JOKE!
However it's not to say that YOUR understanding of what WE have to put up with is the same as you might imagine.
Do you think perhaps we are IMAGINING that this profession is continously going down the U bend?

As I said, TDF380 is trying to juggle with his own responsibility to himself and his passengers and to the corrupt disfunctional, greedy airline management that are paying his wage to feed his kids and wife with.

YOU ARE ONE HARD "observer" mate.

[Kaptin M]

My feeling, skyclamp, is that TDF380 is representative of quite a few professional pilots - whether they work for known, less reputable companies, or are employed by large, well-known airlines.
These pilots are putting THEMSELVES under a great deal of stress, by not exercising their legal authority.
It must be difficult for them each time they know they are due to go to work, wondering how they are going to be "tested".
Undoubtedly this stress also carries through to their home life, and creates friction that is an outlet for the work anxiety.I don't for a minute feel that TDF380 is about to sell the SAFETY of his aircraft down the line for complying with "protocols" that are invisibly forced upon him. The problem I find with that, skyclamp, is that if the TDF380`s are willing to fly fatigued, take aircraft that legally should not be flying, etc. then what else do they envisage they HAVE to do to retain their employment?
Bust minimums?
Take off overweight?
Carry incorrectly packed or loaded cargo?
The list is endless.

BTW, I`m a participant in the aviation scene - not an observer.

I don`t disagree that there has certainly been an erosion of our conditions - the most severe, and rapid that I`ve experienced in my 30+ years in this profession.
It is evident that the reduction in our final paypacket is not ONLY for our companies to main competitiveness, it is also used to line the pockets of ruthless, greedy managers, and to allow them to propagate like duck weed on a pond!

BUT, I do NOT believe that we - as professional pilots - must allow our own personal standards to be overridden by these people.
It is up to EACH and EVERY one of us to use our discretion, experience, and knowledge to make SAFE decisions.
Occasionally these decisions may well impact economically, however by discarding that which we KNOW is the correct thing to do, is even more dangerous, and if allowed to perpetuate WILL lead to the demise of the professional pilot.

Show the leadership skills and authority that this profession demands.
Only in that way can we start to regain some of the respect that has disappeared!

[fullforward]

Our profession is being eroded dramatically, this is the main point of the starter of this thread. His statement is 90% valid.
And unless we start to build something like a mega union or organise the pilots associations around the world, (dream!...) the bean counters will be taking fodder were is cheaper, and our profession will continuously spiraling down.
The other way for things to improve is by market forces: a great and hardly probable pilot shortage...

Kaptim
You´re absolutely right. There´s no single excuse for not being professional.

[b777900]

Again Well Said TDF380,

Youve summed up my career in aviation.
A few years in GA with cr@p pay and conditions

Years in a commuter airline, with small pay cuts, and having to work extra days off when they said they were struggling.

Now on international operations and in the last 3 years things are rapidly declining, pay , allowances are being reduced while hours worked are increasing. What will it be like in 10 years.

Kaptan M

Its seems you either work in Aus or maybe Japan, If you were to refuse a flight, would it affect your next contract renewal, or are you permanent staff. An airline does not have to renew your contract. No reason needs to be given as to why they are not renewing your contract.

Are you on a contract.

TDF is quite correct, there is underlying intimidation. You may not have worked for such an airline.
Are you the type to say
refuse to do it.
go on strike.
go slow.
work to rule.
vote with your feet, even if you do not have another job lined up to go to.

Have you ever done any of the above.

I aggre with TDF it is a problem with managers and the regulators.
In the ideal world we would all just refuse, in reality its not so simple.

[HIALS]

When I first read this thread - and put my little piece on it - I had not idea we were complaining about how we destroyed our profession. I thought we were bemoaning the lack of respect and common courtesy we receive from our employers.

I cannot and will not agree with any of you who say in one breath "oh! poor fellow me, look what I have to tolerate." And, in the other breath say, "but I had to give in (under pressure) and do the wrong thing..."

I am horrified by some of the self-denial evident in the last couple of pages of this thread.

How can we ever expect proper treatment when we behave in a cowering and self-interested way? As an airline captain, I am responsible for doing the right thing. Not the convenient thing. Not the easiest thing. Not the job-preserving thing. Not the cop-out thing.

Hell - if we don't act professionally, why should we expect decent treatment. Some of the comment on this thread makes the word prostitute spring to mind.

To short-circuit the critics. Yes. I work for a big-name Asian airline. Do I understand the difficulties endured by those who don't work for such professional outfits? Yes. I have been to hell and back in this occupation. I have been flying for 30+ years. I have worked for airlines in Oceania, Europe, the Middle East and Asia. Some of these jobs were awful. But, I never lowered my standards to "fit in" or "survive". I have lost jobs because of my standards. I have even lost my ability to live in my homeland because of my beliefs (at the time). I have NEVER subordinated my standards to my job-of-the-day.

In the end - we have one life, one licence and one standard of self-esteem. By comparison a job is a passing thing.

Untill you stand up for yourself, your career and your standards - no one will take you seriously.

[CruisingSpeed]

Great reading. How do you manage to survive in Hong Kong HIALS? :O

[The Real Slim Shady]

HIALS wrote,

Untill you stand up for yourself, your career and your standards - no one will take you seriously.

An honourable sentiment indeed, and absolute, utter mindless tosh.

Can you just tell me which section of the application form is marked "Credibility" ?????

Been there, done that, got the tick: I don't see anyone rushing to my door offering me a job because of "credibility". On the contrary, if you stand up for yourself, your career and your standards - oh, and do your damnedest to make certain that guys working for you don't get shafted by the CEO and his beancounters - do you really think that you go are going to endear yourself to anyone???

Ever actually been a manager in an airline? Ever been the guy batting day in day out for the people at the coalface?

Ever been in the situation where you dread going in to the office in morning because you know you will fighting your corner, and the corners of your pilots all the time? Ever walked into the Ops room first thing in the morning to be told " Captain XXXX has been fired" and then spent the next hour arguing and pleading with the CEO not to fire a guy who refused to operate because he was EXHAUSTED!!!

Ever had to tell the CEO, who owns the airline, that he cant just promote guys to Training Captain without them undergoing the prescribed training, just because it's cheaper to omit it??

Ever had to tell the CEO that he can't just appoint Captains behind your back when they don't have the minimum experience requirements laid down in the Ops Manual??

Ever been verbally assaulted by cabin crew / crew transport owners / ground staff / Ops staff / passengers / clients - you name it, over the way your company "operates" because you are the manager on the ground, at the front just because you are a pilot and happen to have fly occassionally???

Ever had to deal with all the buls**t of an Authority Ops inspection when they gloss over all the real "meat" presented to them and focus on the trivia of crossed T's and I's not dotted???

Ever had to work every day trying to balance the need to follow the regulations and keep people in a job???

Tell you what HIALS, put your money where your mouth is.......your present outfit must need Capts, you get me a job and I'll bring all my credibility with me, how's that.

International union.....don't make laugh. Strength in unity.....that takes commitment, organisation and some sense of belonging. Are you, if you are sitting fat dumb and happy in the left seat of a 744 or an A332 going stand up and be counted when your "colleague" flying a Shed on night freight needs your support because his boss is using veiled threats to force him to work outside the regulations???

You would get more loyalty and support working in a Bangkok whorehouse than in any airline. Not only will the CEO, beancounters and ambitious management pilots stab you in the back, but your ambitious / comfortable colleagues will look after No 1 every time.

[Kaptin M]

It's time for me to round off now, because I feel I have said pretty much all that I need to say - further posts are merely going to end up as repitition.

Of my 30+ years in aviation, the first 7 of those were in G.A. in 2 different companies, and involved working as a charter/commuter pilot, and Flight Instructor.
My airline career has been with 5 different companies, so I have encountered the SAME problems some of you now complain of, as if you were the only ones to ever have been subjected to them!
None of my jobs ended as a result of termination on the employer's part. The answer to your questions, b777900 - "Are you the type to say
refuse to do it.
go on strike.
go slow.
work to rule.
vote with your feet, even if you do not have another job lined up to go to."
- are "Yes" to each (although the strike was not a strike as such - and it did cost me, and HIALS I believe, our jobs, and a great deal more. Do I regret it? No.)

As I stated to TDF380, some of you apparently lack the spine to make the hard decisions this profession REQUIRES, in spite of external pressures!
Quite simply, you shouldn't be occupying ANY seat at the front end of an aircraft, imo.

It's also interesting to note that 2 of the characters complaining the loudest, and making excuses for NOT being willing to make standards-based decisions, have also made the following comments:-
"perhaps you could resign from your airline so I could take your spot..", and,
"your present outfit must need Capts, you get me a job..".

Perhaps there's a message there - you've both ended up in the companies that you DESERVE!

To the majority of professional pilots who take it in their stride to make Safety based decisions, even when it means occasionally having to don the "flak jacket", Thank you for maintaining the standard required of Professional Pilots, and for helping stop "The Demise of the Professional Pilot". :ok:

[TDF380]

Incredible when you write a post on this forum, how certain individuals, without knowing you, have the arrogance to call you unprofessional.

I have no doubt about my professionalism. I have stood up to companys who required me to break the laws of aviation, and I have paid my due. This is why I am taking the time to write this post.

Some my have taken the title of my original post to mean pilots are becoming less professional. That is not what I meant, I meant the profession in general is diminishing, due to paycuts, conditions and hours required to work, as a result of airline management. However it seems to have evolved into personal attacks by some.

I question those who doubt my professionalism by simply saying, refuse, or leave the job as you are too unprofessional to continue as an airline captain.

What is the definition of fatique (from internet)

1. mental or physical exhaustion: extreme tiredness or weariness resulting from physical or mental activity

2. physiology inability to respond to stimulus: temporary inability of an organ or part such as a muscle or nerve cell to respond to a stimulus and function normally, following continuous activity or stimulation

3. inability to respond to situation: temporary inability of somebody to respond to a situation as a result of overexposure or excessive activity ( often used in combination )
compassion fatigue

Therefore if you were to excercise your duty as a professional pilot and stand down from doing a flight due to fatique (excessive tiredness) what repercussions would you expect.

Our airline as part of there cost cutting, is operating with minimum crew (pilots and flight attendants) therefore if I was to stand down often there would be no other crew to call out, resulting in the flight been cancelled, or posponed until the inbound crew took 12 hours rest.(we fly succesive nights)

Yet even 12 hours rest when your fatiqued may not be enough, It may take 3-5 days to recover (CAP371 RECOMMENDATIONS) from the heavy rosters, jet lag, which are now rostered, up to maximum duty times, and which we fly for months on end.

Would my contract be renewed.
What would my management say, 'What you cant operate because your tired'.
Its not as difinitive as a broken arm, flu, etc.
When does a tired pilot decide hes fatigued.

A captain has just had his contract terminated due to the above scenario)
So obviously all pilots and cabin crew of my airline, including this captain who has just been terminated (as he has operated under these circumstances for the last 3 years), are unprofessional.
Our managements answer was, if you cant work what we roster you, you are of no use to us.

I bet you have operated very tired at some stage of your career.

Therefore in reality you cannot simply put all the owness on the pilot. Management should be held accountable too, until they are things will not change.

Also I believe the only way things can improve is if the regulators overhauled the duty time limitations, or made the CAP 371 recommendations MANDATORY. After all that is there reason for existance.

As for the pay and conditions, I dont see that changing.

The Demise of the Professional Pilots Profession.

[Kaptin M]

Your initial posting was quite clear to me, and I agree unreservedly, TDF380, that our conditions of employment have been eroded.

But YOU are stating that because of the eroded conditions, you now fear for your job, and make your decisions BASED on that fear! eg. "Therefore if you were to excercise your duty as a professional pilot and stand down from doing a flight due to fatique (excessive tiredness) what repercussions would you expect."

You apparently know, very well, the definitions and results of fatigue, yet you plead, "therefore if I was to stand down often there would be no other crew to call out, resulting in the flight been cancelled, or posponed until the inbound crew took 12 hours rest.(we fly succesive nights)"
So what would happen if you ignored the fact that you were fatigued, and KNOWINGLY elected to fly, followed by the inevitable incident - or fatal ACCIDENT.
YOU would be the one held completely responsible for your stupid, UNPROFESSIONAL, deadly decision.

Your mindset is DANGEROUS, imo, and perhaps it is the fatigue and stress caused by your present job that is causing you to write these irrational arguments.
Or are just unwilling to accept the responsibility of your position?

If your patterns are as fatiguing as you say, and a majority of the other pilots agree, then a group of you should present your case to your scheduler.

Stop the buck passing, and act RESPONSIBLY.

Yes, our pay and conditions have deteriorated - but it is up to each of us to MAINTAIN the standard of Safety for which we are employed.

[Hotel Charlie]

You surprise me Kaptin M.

You write it in your post but still don´t see it:
Your mindset is DANGEROUS, imo, and perhaps it is the fatigue and stress caused by your present job that is causing you to write these irrational arguments.
It is without a doubt managments responsebility NOT to schedule their crew so that they end up in the condition you mentioned above! And of course: Where is the CAA?

[nzmarty]

the issues that tdf380 raise are issues in just about every industry - from truck driving to aircraft engineering. working 12 hour night shifts fault finding defects on wide body aircraft is NOT conducive to high quality! i've read this whole thread, and there are many comments like :

Many pilots in the company I’m with are angry and are looking to leave, yet they can’t find a better job to go to at the moment’ says it all really.


so why does one continue on with being a pilot in such 'terrible' conditions? it's simple - leave. find something else, and be happy with that. make your decision and stick with it. don't bring everyone else down to your issue. maybe you could join the police, earn crap pay, work crap hours, be spat on/stabbed/shot at, be the focus of a media circus when you shoot/beat someone. being a police officer is a respected profession. it's not hard to find a 'better' job - there is always one just over the fence, where the grass is greener, cause apparantly it's watered more often. or maybe they just use greener paint to cover the scratches. you won't know by sitting on here ranting. go for it.

[skyclamp]

The CAA will be there when required.
For instance an accident.
Until then, which is what we are all waiting for, the conditions of our working conditions will continue eroding.
This job is an accident waiting to happen, remember you've read it here!
All the high preachers above like HIALS and Kaptin M NZ Marty will be put to their own test sooner or later, when their conditions are going to erode, as we know it has already begun.
Look at the BA pension for instance!!
And as for operating safely? I will for as long as I can, but...... I have never promised a rose garden to anyone!

[BusyB]

nzmarty,
That has to be the most pathetic answer to the problem. If you feel something is wrong you should try to improve it. If you've tried and failed then you have every right to tell people about and decide whether to move on. Saying nothing and moving on merely leaves yourself in possibly the same situation

[The Real Slim Shady]

Kaptin M lives in bubblewrap.

He makes this statement about me, without knowing me, or apparently having read and understood the post:

It's also interesting to note that 2 of the characters complaining the loudest, and making excuses for NOT being willing to make standards-based decisions, have also made the following comments:-

Try reading it again, SLOWLY. That way you might get the gist of it. Oh, and check your PMs.

If not, have you ever considered that some managers are actually fighting the pilot's fight? Are taking the problems and complaints to the Board?

[Kaptin M]

Kaptin M lives in the same world as the rest of you, and has had to, and occasionally still does front the same problems you do.

Your pm was replied to almost 24 hours ago, TRSS - try checking your own, before engaging mouth.
Because I don`t know you, my opinion is unbiased!

For those who say the regulatory authority has to step in, and do something about - I agree, BUT they have to be made aware of the problem.
An anonymous letter - from perhaps several of you, individually - describing the problem patterns, the fatigue experienced, the threats you believe some management are making, and your concern for Safety, has to be the first step.

However, the resolution to the problem lies solely in YOUR hands. Complaining on an anonymous forum won`t achieve results - unless the airline company concerned is named.

An accident WON`T bring any resolution - the finding will inevitably end up as "Pilot Error", which would be correct, if you are KNOWINGLY flying fatigued, or accepting u/s aircraft, not adhering to minimum rest rules, not following de-icing holdover times, etc, etc.

[turtleneck]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Kaptin M lives in the same world as the rest of you.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Kaptin M. Some of your arguments seem to prove otherwise:


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
“For those who say the regulatory authority has to step in, and do something about - I agree, BUT they have to be made aware of the problem”.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you really believe they don’t know?? They do, and they turn a blind eye.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
”However, the resolution to the problem lies solely in YOUR hands. Complaining on an anonymous forum won`t achieve results - unless the airline company concerned is named”.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you believe naming one of the (too) many crappy companies on the same anonymous forum will help?? It only helps if you make it public, but then the messenger get’s shot.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
”An accident WON`T bring any resolution - the finding will inevitably end up as "Pilot Error", which would be correct, if you are KNOWINGLY flying fatigued, or accepting u/s aircraft, not adhering to minimum rest rules, not following de-icing holdover times, etc, etc”.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Very naïve. Who defines “fatigued”, “minimum rest”, “HOT times” ? You, or the company, or the regulator? If you know or feel wiser and decide accordingly, is this then working against eventual pilot error, or working against the company? You see, it’s not always us beeing blackmailed to eventually breach a rule. It’s more often the rules who breach common sense and airmenship. To stand up against crappy but established and sanctioned rules is definetly a different story, in different companies and different regions.



Your absolute disqualification of some comments in this forum is just arrogant.
The soldier at the dirty front can either follow his orders without questioning them, or follow the Geneva convention and face mutiny charges. To leave him alone with the choice or blame, without going after the ones who give orders, is cynical, (qed Abu Gurair).
That’s exactly what happens in aviation. Unfortunately I have no instant solution, some of you are right when stating that by simply complain on this forum we don’t get any further. However pretending you always stood up against such pressure and others should do just so, makes one doubt about the entry-quote.

[Mentaleena]

Cap M,

Although you may have had some validity to what you have said earlier on, the further you went the worst it sounded.

Clearly you have no REAL concept as to what most of us are having to put up with and frankly I am getting a little tired of the attitude you are displaying.

No one has ever told us what this profession is gonna turn into eventually. Therefore we find ourselves in the formative times of the next version of it, where the impossible has already begun happening and people like myself and others are getting pushed to limits one way or another.

Your outright dismissal of our discussions here is to say the least just arrogant and befitting someone in antipilotmanagement.

But, don't worry because the subject will eventually be carried by the unions that we pay to upkeep, if it doesn't in fact end up in industrial action. Albeit it seems to be taking a little time, but I am sure it will get there.

[guybrush]

I know I might sound naive, but how about the ICAO or the IATA, don't they have rules governing such issues? Maybe they will be able to set more reasonable limits. Of course I do not know what the scope of these organisations are, so don't blame me for anything!

Cheers:ok:
guybrush

[zorrotfb]

To all those moaning about their profession you should try walking a mile in my shoes. Seriously.

After that who cares ? you're a mile away and you've got my shoes.

Thanks Billy

[ZQA297/30]

Guybrush,
There are tonloads of rules, CAA, FAA, whicheverAA, - the thing is, there is not much enforcement unless some poor tired pilot cocks up.

ICAO has many guidelines that countries can opt into or out of, piecemeal if they want. Many countries register exceptions.

IATA is an airline association that tends to be involved more in fares and ticketing and the like.

[Kaptin M]

"Clearly you have no REAL concept as to what most of us are having to put up" :{ I realise that some operators, more than others, might try to push their pilots further - and some of the weaker pilots, who don't have the confidence in themselves, or are wanting "just a little bit more experience, to move on to that next job :rolleyes: " take it.
That is WHY pilots NEED a union - to protect them from themselves in some cases.

"No one has ever told us what this profession is gonna turn into eventually."
It going to "turn into" whatever pilots allow it to.
There are regulations that MUST be followed by pilots, regardless of what the scheduler allocates you.
There is a company Operations Manual, that has been approved by the regulatory authority, that you - the employee - MUST abide by.

Yes, I know that schedulers will sometimes roster pilots to the maximum of the these limits - max. duty periods with min. rest, followed by minimum rest prior to the following duties.
Whilst some of these limitations might be acceptable to desk bound Johnnies, I don't believe they sufficiently take into account the work we do, in O2 deprived environments, for extended periods.
In all probability we need to have some research into formulating a table similar to that (decompression tables) used by scuba divers making repetitive dives.
Most pilots are aware of the difference in personal fatigue levels following flights at say FL390 - with a cabin altitude of around 8,000' - vs those at FL220, where the cabin altitude is down around 1200'.
For that reason, on long multi-sector days, I have elected for the (much) lower level, and **** the burn.

I think some of you are mis-reading my intentions - I DON'T disagree that there has been a vigorous attack on our conditions - financially, and workplace (wrt flight and duty times) wise.
I DON'T disagree that some of the regulations, when used to the limit, by managers and schedulers who lack knowledge of the physiological effects of flying - WILL CAUSE FATIGUE.

However I DO disagree that it is up to the regulator to make the first move of stepping in to "save" the pilot and his charges.
That is our responsibility - for the sake of the pax in our care, the aircraft, ourselves, and the EMPLOYER. Because it is the EMPLOYER'S business that is going to suffer the longer term effects, following any incident or accident.
Long after all the pilots have left, and found employment elsewhere - and they will - the employer is going to be left with a LIABILITY.

[Jodiekeyz]

I agree with you 110% TDF380. The job is not what it once was.

:suspect:

[Sonic Zepplin]

What have they done for anyone lately?

Certainly not in the USA

As for the far East, well ask the 49rs over at Cathay and I am sure they would say the same.

I couldnt say as to the EU, but I would guess its pretty much the same

Boys and Girls the unions days are over!!! Supply and demand

[Kaptin M]

What have they done for anyone lately? Good point, SZ! There has been a concerted, determined attack on pilots' unions, globally, resulting in the near demise of many of them.

One has only to look at the conditions of pilots, and the advances gained for us by strong union membership, and compare it to current times when most pilots DON'T have the PROTECTION of a union against ruthless management, to see WHY pilots' conditions are where they're at now.

[maxalt]

Sonic, as a unionised pilot I can tell you they've done PLENTY for me. Especially since 9-11. I consider it a blessing that my union is a good'un. But then...WE MADE IT SO!!

[Sonic Zepplin]

But most have failed.

In a global economy, they appear not to work rather well, or at all,

[maxalt]

I see you are US based, and I understand your disillusion given whats happened to the once mighty majors there, like United.

But the guys at United had it very very good for a very long time. It just makes the fall seem harder and further.

As far as my own company is concerned, we made sacrifices, but the union prevented the kind of rape we've seen elsewhere. The word that best describes it is 'managed change'.

The majors in the US haven't changed the way we did...and I'm not referring to pilots, because (for example) the United guys seem to have given a helluva lot, including around 50% pay reductions (according to what I've read) and the recent deal offerring complete dismantling of the defined benefit pension scheme.
The problem is that MANAGEMENTS haven't changed their approach to the new market realities. Frightening ammounts of money are still being lost under their current business models, and no ammount of pilot pay cuts or working conditions sacrifices are going to cure those ills. We're all waiting for the other boot to drop in the US, and unfortunately it seems unavoidable that there will have to be a serious shakeout at the top end of the market. Don't blame the unions for the lack of management acumen.

[Ignition Override]

Sonic-the highly acclaimed Southwest has been heavily unionized for many years. Check out the pay rates, and have been good for quite a while. The more senior/older pilots ahd other employees have also done well with stock and profit sharing.
US hub-and-spoke airlines (AMR, United, Delta, NWA, CO, USAirways...) requiring passengers and crews (sometimes hanging around over two hours at hubs) to change planes most of the time, were NEVER designed for high employee productivity. Managements strongly denied it, but they all used pattern bargaining when negotiating contracts-they always looked at the competition. High business fares were apparently the foundation for these wasteful hub operations. After a 10 or 12-hour duty day with short, intense legs flown requiring three or even four rushed changes of aircraft (weather delays in the c0ckp1t can quickly result in no time to eat between flights), we feel very productive and tired, but sometimes have logged only about 6 hours of 'block time'. Even with seven hours, indefinite weather delays between the dep. gate and runway in the summer can threaten our arrival contingency fuel-we must choose between running both engines+APU in an attempt to cool a really hot plane, or making it unbearable for over 100 people. Winter can mean swiftly changing weather and fuel requirements (do the destination and alternates still have required vis, crosswinds and good braking action?). Never mind guessing at crowded skies or holding over the Great Lakes or eastern US. Frustrating, even IF we had more than five hours of sleep in a hotel.

But upper management wants the public to believe that it is the unions' fault that these inefficient operations were created and are still, after decades, the heart and soul of daily business, except at Southwest Airlines, which carefully designed linear routes, sort of like the railroads. Another major US passenger carrier seems to have made most of its profit years ago by flying several cargo planes-but its Pacific route authority was never fully utilized, and the reasons have remained a mystery to many. Was freight not fashionable?

Southwest's 737 pilots are the highest-paid 737 aviators in the US! How is this possible, at an airline which is splashed throughout the media as a "low cost carrier"? and Southwest has been HEAVILY UNIONIZED for MANY YEARS. CEOs at other airlines don't want the public to be aware of this paradox.

Don't think so? Just check the history over there.... Employee costs, which were far better than at the rock-bottom-paying upstart airlines, have not prevented Southwest's brilliant success. They seem to have almost no hub-and-spoke operations. Productivity, linear route structures, one aircraft type and high staff/employee morale seem to be the key elements, concepts which seem lost on typically indifferent, conventional airline managements in the US, which now pretend that their hubs-and-spoke networks can be productive-if staff makeup for both these inefficient hubs and high fuel prices by taking unending paycuts. Some airlines attempt to create the superficial facade of a caring management. But unlike Southwest years ago, there is no steep discount to own shares of company stock, and half-hearted attempts, if any, to promote a true team spirit while at work. Which airline CEOs would go down to the ramp and load some bags for a while, or fly around a little, chatting with employees? Who are these "leaders" really fooling? Most of these so-called "leaders" have no true background in actual airline operations, and little interest in real aviation, as Howard Hughes, Bob Six, Juan Trippe (?) and Eddie Rickenbacker had long ago. Continental Airlines might have a pretty good CEO (Bethune) who might have saved the company years ago: no matter how typical he now appears, he earned his pilot ratings and has ferried B-757s from the factory. And American Trans Air was created by an 'operations type', Mr. Mickelson.

Even a beginning as a smaller airport Station Manager, even ramp worker or gate agent (at UPS, except for the pilots, most have worked their way up from loading packages), would create more insight into which staffing, equipment $upport is needed (many of us still doubt that good passenger service is the goal-airline seats seem to be just a perishable cash commodity in the eyes of the executives) , than what most of today's airline CEOs will ever acquire by the time their "golden parachutes" are opened. :hmm:

[ZQA297/30]

Gotta agree with Ignition, thing is, most airline CEOs these days are accountants and lawyers.
Guess it figures.

[calsar]

I agree with the sentiments about this problem. I left BA (without a mega pension)and jioned a far east company now multisector days on the 744 with a duty limit of 24hrs but if you divert there is no limit to the duty hours. Only limited by the Captain willing to say enough. So next tme you see a far east airline please call them up as they may be asleep!

[Irish Steve]

the subtle pleasures derived from a well handled approach and landing under difficult conditions are still a source of extreme satisfaction.

This was mentioned several pages ago, and maybe it's too late now to comment on this, but one of many issues that have probabluy provoked this thread is simply, is how many left seaters can say this any more.

In too many cases, the beancounters have taken over so much, it's now SOP that the autoland HAS to be used more often than not, and there's all sorts of reasons used to justify that decision. In the same way, SOP dictates that for economy, the automation has to be switched on at 500 Ft on the departure. I can't think of a way to demotivate people faster than to tell them that their skills are no longer needed.

The harsh truth is that the modern aircraft and it's operation is now so automated, while many people don't like to admit it, things have changed massively over recent years.

I can remember a visit to the local medical centre for a renewal, and sitting beside me was a senior captain of a well known green airline, in for his 6 monthly Class 1 renewal. He had just moved over to the A330, having flown early generation 747's for a number of years.

His somewhat crusty but interesting comment went "f******n stoopid this nonsense of coming in here every 6 months to get all manner of insults thrown at me, I could die 30 seconds after take off, and no b****r would notice until we were 20 minutes out of New York.!" He wasn't altogether joking.

Not much more than 30 years earlier, his predecessor would have launched out of Shannon not even knowing at that stage if they had enough fuel to get them past the PNR, and some days, they didn't, and had to come back.

Now, and I've seen this, the cabin entertainment system is showing an estimated arrival time that quite often is less than 5 minutes out for a flight that can be 11 hours.

In the same vein, that same crew 30+ years ago would be delighted if they landed with as many engines running as they had when they departed. Now, it's regarded as a major incident if an engine is shut down, and the vast majority of professional pilots will go through their entire career without having to ever fly for real on less than all of the engines that the manufacturer has provided, the only time that there will be any stress in this area will be in the recurrent sim checks.

Navigation aids are now so accurate, it's a relief when a not too stressed ATCer has time to tell you "opposite direction traffic 1000 above you", as it avoids the serious pucker factor of wondering if the opposite direction traffic that's right on the nose is above you, the centre line holding of the modern aids is now is so accurate, though that may not be seen by all as good.

All the other things that have been mentioned are also valid, there are new stress factors from fuel, weather, duty hours, and all of the other things mentioned. How many of them are down to beancounters, often beancounters that have never had any exposure to the real world at the sharp end of aviation. How many times has it been the professionalism of the flight crew who are on the front line that has been the only factor in preventing a disaster that need not even have been an issue other than for the attitude of those same beancounters.

Equally, someone made the comment about a Flight Sim pilot landing a 747-400 if the crew became incapacitated. Sad truth, if everything on the aircraft is working, and where it's going is not unreasonable, the flight simmer would probably get it on the ground in one piece. It might not be tidy, or legal, but it probably would happen, there are PC based simulators out there now that are very close to accurate representations of the flight deck of most modern jets. Ok, in some cases they might not be absolutely accurate in the modelling, but some of the level D full motion sims are not innocent in that respect, I can recall one A320 sim in Europe that was a nightmare to try and fly in manual reversion, so we ended up going to another 320 sim over 4000 miles away to do the research work we had to do. In the same vein, I've seen a non pilot with no real flight simulator experience, after less than an hour of careful instruction, handle a heavy jet full flight sim landing into the old Kai Tak. OK, don't get me wrong on this, it was in very good VFR conditions, with coaching from the people that knew what should be happening, but the handling was still being done by someone that an hour earlier had never handled the controls of a heavy jet.

Maybe that's part of the problem, the modern heavy jet is so much easier to handle, the professionals have allowed the idea to escape, as has been mentioned, that's it's easy. It's only easy because it's under control, and everyone knows exactly what it going on, and why. That's already been touched on before. The truth is that the underlying skill levels required are still high, maybe not as often, and maybe not for as long when things are getting tense, but those underlying skills are still needed. In some cases they may not be there to the same depth, and that's another point to be made.

Flying has changed, and it's going to continue to do so, dramatically. Some of the changes are going to be worrying, in that (beancounters again) it's no longer deemed essential that flight crew members have the raw data handling skills that used to be standard and expected. That's going to lead to accidents happening in future that might not have happened before, because the bean counters have decided (for now) that the cost of training to recover from some of the more unusual problems that might occur is not justified when the rarity of the possible occurrence is taken into account. Quite how you explain that logic to a grieving family (and the bean counters are rarely seen in that scenario) I don't know.

Don't get me wrong. Any airline has to be profitable, there's no charity cases that I know of, but there comes a point when the exact level of profit, and as many have already commented, the distribution of that profit has to be looked at very carefully, if the present trends continue, it's not clear if there will be fewer airlines because they've all cut each other's throats, or fewer airlines because some of them cut too many corners, and paid the ultimate price as a result of serious accidents or incidents.

Has this progressed things any. I'm not sure, but I do know that the discussion has to happen, and all concerned have to find a way to make sure that the entire industry doesn't become something that everyone takes for granted, and worse, accepts a higher failure level as a result.

I've already seen that the advent of the loco no frills carriers has taken the "special" factor out of flying for increasing numbers of passengers, now, flying is in the same category as getting in the car to go round the corner for the paper, or getting on the bus or train to go to work. That's a pity in some respects, because it's lowered the anticipation and expectation that people used to have, and it's reduced the recognition of the very different skills and commitment that is required to keep aviation safe for everyone. Bad drivers on the roads are a sad fact of life, bad pilots in the same way must never be, for the sake of all the people on the ground under them, the stakes are just too high.

[Kaptin M]

it's now SOP that the autoland HAS to be used more often than not....In the same way, SOP dictates that for economy, the automation has to be switched on at 500 Ft on the departure. Would you care to name which companies this is SOP's for, Irish Steve? By "automation", are you referring to lateral navigation?
Now, it's regarded as a major incident if an engine is shut down, Really? By whom? The press perhaps..and some "terrified for my life" pax they happen to find!
Engine shutdowns are a relatively regular occurrence in worldwide commercial aviation operations, and BECAUSE they are handled proficiently, more often than not, they don't rate a mention.

I've seen a non pilot with no real flight simulator experience, after less than an hour of careful instruction, handle a heavy jet full flight sim landing into the old Kai Tak. I don't understand the point you're trying to make by that statement - do you? It was arriving at a particular point, in a certain configuration, that allowed the aircraft to make its successful landing - and as you stated, he was talked through the landing anyway (after about an hour of careful instruction).

[Ignition Override]

Some airlines require you to push an autopilot button at about 500'? Tell me that this is quite an exaggeration. Even at 1,000', if permitted by systems limitations, that might be strange. How can this save money if you follow the flight director (even climbing in VS mode using 1500 fpm or so at "two to go" callouts, up to about 10,000', in order to avoid abrupt level offs: maybe "they" don't "allow" such choice of vertical modes?) and leave the planned FMC speeds alone?

Are the Program Managers and Fleet Captains really pilots, or just weenies? "Empty suits" who must allow the company Chief Pilots or a VP of Flight Ops with no real pilot background to override them and make such decisions regarding line flying. Is there fear that the line pilots can not safely hand-fly, as the non-flying pilot must reset the altitude knob and LNAV ["Dir/Intercept" Legs page) + white execute, and VNAV execute buttons, as he/she also responds to ATC clearances and requests deviation for weather 20* left? I saw numerous Captains hand-fly the 757 up to about FL 180 or higher, mostly when nearby traffic was light or moderate-not on each leg, but at least above 5000'. Since most planes have no Flight Engineer, is Flt Ops Management not believing the manufacturers' mantra (to enhance sales) that automation with only two pilots is both more economical and as safe-without the third c0ckp1t crewmember? Pilots must tell the automation what to do-not the other way around. Otherwise, they will never have the experience to substitute whenever the new-age 'pilot in command' (automation) is slow to respond or capture a course climbing out from LAS, EGE, BOZ or SEA. This also requires extra patience and experience to learn, whether with a MCDU or FMS+(even with moving) autothrottles.

There must be many such airlines with little faith in, nor understanding of their pilots. How can the beancounters be allowed to tell pilots how and when to fly, running the department with lock-step regimentation, or do these nations simply have no broad civilian aviation heritage to draw from? Maybe certain local pilot cultures have allowed themselves to be pushed into a tight corner with no escape, ending up as mode managers, with total confidence in and blind obedience to software, instead of experience:suspect: Maybe none of my vague impressions are valid. But even with some pilots having various amounts of FMC exposure, tragedies at Cali, Columbus, Toulouse, Mulhouse, Habsheim, Nagoya...near-tragedies at Lajes (Azores) and Vienna are possible .:ouch:

[unmanned transport]

Are unmanned-in-the-pointy-end craft starting to make more sense for the future air travel around our planet?

[Kaptin M]

Well, before we get to that stage, we can expect to see driverless trains and buses, fully automated check-in at airports, and fully automated luggage and cargo loading.

Looking at space travel, the first capsules were unmanned, but as time has progressed, humans have been introduced - to fix the problems with the automatics:cool:

Be seein' you round, ut!

[unmanned transport]

I'd sure like more leisure time.

[CANTSAY]

So here we are 7 miles up and 1500 miles east of JFK heading for LHR with 300 pax in a 2 engine jet when one of the engine's blows a gasket and has to be shut down.
Are the pilots or '' systems monitors '' capable of getting everybody safely to their intended destination ???

[Kaptin M]

Call us back later, CANTSAY, and let's know how you got on. :p

[Earl]

Problem is that if they could teach monkeys to fly then we would be replaced in a heartbeat.
But I wonder how long before they would be cutting the monkey's
rations.
Flying him to the point that he even forgets he is a monkey.
These managment types should be replaced with cockpit crew.

[poorwanderingwun]

I don't know CANTSAY but when I fly... alone... back and forth to and from the States over the northern route in winter with a light twin I don't care that I don't have 300 passengers on board...I'm on board and that concentrates the mind wonderfully... :ok:

[deice]

This has been an interesting thread so far and has raised a few thoughts as I tried to grasp the general direction. I am looking at this from my point of view which is commercial license but no job, and currently working in marketing of electronic components.

1. Flying is not what it used to be - Amen

2. Management is in it for the money - Amen, but so are most humans whatever their line of work. Humans are greedy. My management doesn't give a rats ass if I think the salary is low, they'll hire someone else thank you very much...

3. Pilots want to keep on flying and don't want to lose their jobs -go figure. It can't be all bad.

4. Piloting still requires skills what with all the automation. In fact, the electronics add another twist to the game. Electronics, and mechanics, fail just like humans - it's not a perfect world.
I don't believe in non-pilot aircraft mainly because nobody would fly in them. Most pax are terrified WITH pilots up front but NOT BECAUSE of them. Remove the Pilots and you remove what little faith our fellow human beings have in arriving safely at the other terminal.

5. Humans resist change, always have, always will.

6. Life goes on, and so will flying.

7. The only constant in life is change.

What Pilots do is black magic to most of the general public. There are one or two who think pilots are overpaid just because they fly on autopilot all the time. These are the ones who know there is an autopilot but have no clue as to what, how, when and where they operate, fail and cause problems.

Well, as has been pointed out, pilots aren't paid for riding along with George, it's when he takes a rest and everything goes dark that they earn their pay. If it happens only once in a lifetime, great! - congratulations!

If management neglects to realise this they will be in for a surprise the day they try to remove the guys up front.
I've heard this argument from pilots, that we'll all be replaced by automation. That is a dream of yesteryear and perhaps a very very very distant future, not due to technology but psychology.

The General Public is the current problem and future savior for pilothood. Sure, they, we, I, want cheap airfares. I also demand the guys up front are on their toes. I believe they are trained professionals and place my life in their capable hands. Pilots are entrusted with peoples lives, not by management but by them, the self-loading cargo as someone said (Nice one, perhaps a change of attitude would help?). Because the General Public doesn't have indepth knowledge of what flying is and what makes it tick in a safe manner, we can provide that for them and justify the required level of pay.

If you don't believe this listen to an aviation report on the news. 90% is backwards and incorrect. Journalists aren't more stupid than the general public, they ARE the general public. That's how little they really know about this. That's how they can demand a 19£ airfare from London to Paris, it sounds reasonable to them. Crappy management drives the prices down even further. When will airlines pay customers to fly?

Bring on the terrified public to battle for reasonable T&C. That's the only real live threat for management!

[unmanned transport]

Freight being blasted in an unmanned craft around the planet would be a way to start.

[TDF380]

Unmanned aircraft may well happen, certainly with freighters, however it will be a very long time before unmanned pax aircraft happen.
Even now the US are using pilotless reconnaissance aircraft in Iraq and Afghanistan piloted by someone in the US, however these are considered expendable, just as they are willing to fire off $1,000,000 cruise missiles at targets.
If a problem occurred in-flight and they couldn’t sort it out it would crash.

Would the traveling public consider this acceptable for pilotless passenger airliners? I doubt it. Whereas freighter aircraft may be accepted sooner.

Certainly I will be out of flying well before the freighters go pilotless, and retired or 6 feet under, before pilotless passenger aircraft are common. It won’t affect my children as I’m discouraging them from a flying career due to my concerns with the airline industry as per my previous posts. So i’m not saying this to protect my job.

Here's my prediction

Robots and advanced computers are been developed now.
When they are far enough along in there development they will be used for / in;

Armies, Police, Laborers, Factories, Trains, Buses, Ships, and in the Airlines – check in, loaders, ATC, catering, pilots, engineering etc.

Of course the only countries who can afford to have them will be the developed countries, starting with Japan, the main developer. This will cause massive unemployment, and the associated rise in crime, and thus breakdown in society (e.g.; Philippines, Russia, and Africa)
Ultimately people from the developed countries will have to move to the less developed countries for any chance of finding a job. Negative population growth will end in depression for those countries.

So although I believe ‘unmanned transport’s' posts are a windup, we’ll probably see you in the unemployment que before us.

The Demise of the Professional Pilot’s Profession continues Look at what’s been in the news and Pprune lately.

United Airlines

Have made 2.5 Billion Dollars in cuts and concessions / pensions with all staff in the last 2-3 years.
Just read in the paper they require another 2 Billion Dollars in cuts to survive. Will they ask for another 2 Billion Dollars in cuts in another 2 years?

US Airways

More cuts and concessions with its employees.

Air Italia

Cut in pay and conditions, extended working hours.

BA Short Haul

Big shakeup on the cards.

Emirates

The expanding airline with the shiny new planes that was luring pilots from around the world, now working up to max FDL, pilots concerned about fatigue. Pilot shortage just means longer duty times to operate the schedule, will Emirates improve.

These are the National Airlines of some countries.

Ironically the employees of first low cost airlines, Southwest, seem reasonably happy; it’s just the copycats like Ryan air that seem to have taken the concept of low costs and B@ggerised it to a new level of low.

Others national airlines with unhappy staff on Pprune
Air Finland, Singapore, Malaysian, Royal Brunei, Plus many more.

With flights fairly full why are these airlines struggling, maybe airfares should be increased to a realistic level.

This is not the grumblings of a few whining pilots, there is a lot of concern over fatigue and the general demise of the pilots profession

[Nickio]

I absolutely agree. Flying was a luxury before, why should it be like a bus fair now. New technology? As far as I know, we have learned how to fly further, safer, higher, faster. Does not sound like we saved a lot of money since piston engines. And yet the public expects it to be a reasonable price. Since I found out the real thruth about aviation and pilots, I am just afraid that the person who has dedicated his life towards flying so he can once forget about money and enjoy the freedom- is now probably thinking of how he is going to pay for dinner on our way down to Frankfurt.
I am not a pilot yet, so I sit in the back which means I pay to fly.
I dont know which way to hit it from but it's just not fair. How does a flight attendant at one airline with 6 month of training at most get paid the same as a co-pilot with atleast 7 years experience from another airline.
It has all been said before, so now instead of goign over the same issue ( which i just did :eek: ) - lets do something. Lets post ways that we can fight this.

Although Impossible- A true revolution would be- to see every airplane in the world cruise at 10000 feet one day, just to show the kind of power the pilots have. Unrealistic, but what if An airline did it, inspiring another airline, and so on. Since I dont see anything about strikes on news lately.
So what really stops us. There are families and children that need to be fed, educated and basically paid for. So before you think about that and accept another pay cut, just think, that the money now went to your CEO's kid's new Porche. So the managment keeps us afraid that we'll loose our jobs and have no money, why cant we do the same to them. Bottom line is, people need to fly and thats not about to change.
Pilots arent asking for 300k a year on there 3rd year of work as a Captain, but wouldnt it be nice to earn the respect form people who think that Pilots are nothing but busdrivers, after all- unfortunatly that is the image that people now a days think of, atleast here in canada.
I believe that Pilots are like a different breed of people that are not like anyone else, and while a lot of people can get mighty close to being, something very significant other than technical and professional characteristics always separates us from bus drivers.