Flying in Western USA

[Just another student]

I'm off to California (ADP @ KPOC) later this month to fly 50 hrs or so. I have two friends who are coming along for the ride so to speak. We have a few ideas of places to go, flying up to San Francisco, Grand Canyon/Monument Valley, Big Bear etc But any other suggestions would be welcomed!

My main queries are to do with aircraft performance and Military activity.

I plan to hire a 180hp Archer for most of the trips. Do people think ( given the time of year) that there will be enough power there to fly at high altitudes, baring in mind there will be three adults on board? Any experiences of mountain flying etc would be welcomed ( I will be having a decent check out before I go flying off)

Secondly, a large portion of the area is marked with MOA's and or restricted areas. I'm led to believe that you can enter MOA's without permission, but it is best to get a flight following and that you are to request permission to enter restricted areas. I would like to visit Death Valley, Mojave etc however there seems to be a lot of restricted zones etc

Any help would be appreciated

Cheers

JAS

[EGAC_Ramper]

When I was flying out of Gillespie field in San Diego (KSEE) and took a trip upto John Wanye Orange County it took me thru the San Onofore MOA which is beside Camp Pendelton of the USMC.I had VFR flight following and so was in contact with SOCALL APP all the time.Obviously checked the NOTAMS beforehand then half way thru I got calle dup by SOCAL telling me the MOA was going "HOT" and was advised I was within my rights to continue through the MOA.However I chose the option to scarper and headed further out to sea to leave the MOA.
As for the other MOA's I've been thru the ones to the EAST of san Deigo near Thermal andPalm Springs.From memory I never seem to recall having to get permission to fly through them.



Regards Enjoy your flying.

[VisaGeeza]

1-800-WXBRIEF will get you in touch with a weather briefer who will also give you NOTAM info. You can find out a lot of information for your trip. You will find ATC en route very helpful and I would suggest that you always ask for a VFR flight following (or Class Charlie Services) whenever you fly in California, it's a busy airspace and ATC will help cut down your workload as well as give you some peace of mind.

Page Arizona is a destination which I found particularly nice. You can fly around Catalina Island and Sedona but both of these landings are not permitted in ADP aircraft due to the high accident rate at both of these airports. You must do the McCarran (las Vegas) landing, it's especially good at night if you are current with night and instrument flying. The desert can be disorientating on a dark night compared to the brightness of Las Vegas! Visit the Venitian in Las Vegas and book a hotel on the internet before you go, it's much cheaper!

A 180 Archer will be fine although you will find that on the Big Bear check out that 180 hp is woefully inadequate at such an altitude especially in a downdraught.

I would in any event suggest that you have a GPS with you as SECONDARY means of navigation, as you say there are a lot of restricted areas in California and at the moment, the Yanks seem to have lost their sense of humour about airspace infringements. As you say, you can fly through MOA's although I prefer to avoid them if they are "hot" it's just that F14's seem to travel so fast! Another suggestion is that you avoid flying West in the LA basin at around sunset. The combination of haze, low sun and canopy scratches can make life somewhat tiresome!

Last time I was there, N8086J was about the nicest Archer to fly.

[Just another student]

Thanks for the advice guys. I have certainly looked at flying out to Catalina and making a trip to Sedona, but I had no intentions of landing at either field. The thought of flying SEP 25 miles out over the Pacific does not fill me with joy. I don't fancy playing a game of hide and seek with a Great White Shark LOL

The thought of Mountain flying does excite me, but at the same time I find it kind of daunting. Mountainous areas are dangerous places to be, especially with limited experience! If the Archer could not handle the conditions safely then there would be no question, they wouldn't allow it I guess!

My first major trip will be up the coast to Oakland followed by a night stop at Grand Canyon International some days later. I have flown over the Canyon before when I was younger but didnt really appreciate it due to the shocking weather. Hopefully it will be smoother in Feb :D I hope I don't have to get out and push to help us take off :)

As for GPS...... I wish I could afford one as back up! I intend to really nail VFR planning etc hopefully that will stand me in good stead for my CPL! It does please me to see so many VOR's and NDB's on the charts though!

[Baldegret]

I'm a Brit living in Las Vegas and spend much of my spare time flying my R44 helicopter around the south west. I also fly in the UK when I am back. In fact I spent last weekend flying to Palm Springs, San Diego, Catalina, Santa Barbara, San Luis Ibispo and back to Las Vegas. I have also flown up Death Valley a few times and the length of the Grand Canyon.

It is fabulous flying out here but I would endorse a few of the comments already made. Always use flight following and it makes sense to supplement this with a VFR flight plan. The briefers on 1 800 WX BRIEF are very helpful both with weather as well as NOTAMS and the all important TFRs which can spring up at a moment's notice. You can check before or during a flight which MOAs are hot and I recommend steering well clear if they are hot even though technically you are permitted to fly in them. Look at the ceilings and times of use because in many cases you can fly over them or through them particularly at weekends (Death Valley is cold at weekends). Also ask for penetration of the many restricted areas. On Sunday, GA were being given permission by LA Centre (or should that be center) to transit the restricted area over Edwards Air Force base. It must have been spectacular to overfly the space shuttle runway. For the Grand Canyon get the detailed chart and stick to the altitude minima. Also look out for other aircraft. I had 2 close shaves because other aircraft were not giving position reports as they are meant to and everyone seems to fly at the edge of the ceiling. IN fact the airspace around Vegas, Lake Mead and the Grand Canyon is very congested so speak often on the right frequency and keep your eyes wide open.

I would also recommend a trip to Santa Fe in New Mexico with a short diversion north to see Los Alamos.

You should have a memorable trip.

[nouseforaname]

You will probably find that the 180hp archer is sufficient this time of year. I hired a C172 sp which I think is also 180hp, i had a scary moment when climbing out of Las Vegas with 3 up and 115degF temperature. The density altitude was very high that day. You wouldn't get that this time of year.

The airtraffic over there is wicked, just ask for flight following and they do the rest. If your flying IFR it's even better.

By the way if you hire a plane make sure you find out what they reimburse fuel fill ups at/gallon. sometimes they will give you less reimbursement than you paid for. That happened to me in Las Vegas.

[WrongWayCorrigan]

Recommendation: Fly to Laughlin / Bullhead City and use it as base for day trips. Courtsey cars from airport. Hotels about USD 20 / night during the week.

Ramada is a good one. From there, destinations could include Tuscon, Grand Canyon, Page, Las Vegas, Death Valley, Havasu, the Chicken Ranch.

[VisaGeeza]

JAS, There is a chart for the Grand National Park. You will need that chart if you are going to overfly it. There are altitude restrictions as well as a corridor through it. You will need to use the corridor because the altitude restriction is on flights below 18,000 ft from memory. The corridor is quite narrow and I for one would not be at all happy about going without GPS for backup. I found very early on that primary and secondary means of navigation were essential and certainly I wouldn't rely upon a sectional for navigating through the canyon corridor. Incidentally, the Grand Canyon isn't a single canyon, it's a series of many canyons covering a huge area. It's not just as simple as following a single canyon and it's easy to become "unsure of position" You will find that ATC will almost certainly ask you if you have the special sectional for the national park and a GPS before you go through the corridor. It's all about preserving the giant condor which will also make a giant dent in your aircraft if you hit one!

The flight through the desert from death valley or Los Angeles brings you very close to restricted areas, the desert is a difficult place to navigate with a sectional. I personally wouldn't risk flying without GPS for backup, true there are many VOR's. I don't use NDB's myself and I'm pretty sure that you won't have any instruments in an ADP Archer to enable you to navigate on NDB's There will be trouble for sure if you wander into a restricted area including the National Park restricted areas.

[englishal]

MOA's are no problem. You can get FF in the desert but you will need to be at >8500' for LA Centre to be able to hear and see you. Normally when flying out to Sedona area we don't bother with FF. Its absolutely glorious flying over the high desert not talking to anyone, doing what you want.

Sedona is fine, if you don't land there make sure you have loads of fuel, becasue next stop back which is not at any altitude is Laughlin at 130nm away.

You will probably need an instructor checkout for Catalina, but its worth it, its a great place to visit. Its not that tricky either, I used to be a bit scared of landing there but really there is tons of runway, just don't get low and slow. King Airs regularly land there, so an Archer should have no problem :D

Chicken Ranch
If I remember rightly, the Chicken Ranch is a fly in brothel? :}

[slim_slag]

Flying the corridors over the Grand Canyon is a must-do, but don't worry about position reports, those are being given by the commercial sight seeing companies a thousand feet or so below you. Get flight following from LA Center and keep your head out of the cockpit. I'd recommend you take a GPS if you fly the Grand Canyon corridors as they aren't very wide and they don't like it if you bust the airspace. The minimum altitude outside the corridors is 14,000ft so you can cross that off in a 180HP archer with three on board. You also have to be taking O2 if cruising at 15,500 (VFR altitude heading east), and really should be on O2 if at 14,500 (west) and you are a flatlander from the UK.

MOAs are no big deal, just keep looking outside and if you can get radar identified then talk to Center. You can enter a restricted area with the permission of the controlling authority, these will be shown on the chart, just ask them. US ATC are superb.

[Aim Far]

As mentioned above, MOAs should not be a particular problem. If you are flying VOR to VOR following an airway you won't be in a MOA. If not, check the activity status and you may well find they are not active anyway.

A GPS is nice but not essential - VFR navigation in the desert is easier than in the UK just because there is less to confuse you - if you see a small town, it will be fairly easy to identify because it will probably be the only one for miles around. The topological features on the map are also usually fairly clear if only because they are big.

[Just another student]

Thanks for all the help! This kind of advice is invaluable. Would I need to purchase the Grand canyon chart if I were to just land at Canyon international rather than venturing out into the canyon?
The idea of flying over it sounds amazing, but as a few people mentioned GPS is invaluable and I doubt I will have one.

I'm hoping that aircraft performance won't be degraded too much, from what I have heard, the Canyon is high and cool rather than hot and high at this time of year.

slim_slag .... I don't like the idea of hypoxia, so don't worry I won't be flying that high lol

Englishal.... Isn't the Chicken ranch on aufweidersehn pet? Looks a cool place lol :ok:

VisaGeeza.... Are the avionics fairly basic at ADP then? As long as the planes fly ok I'm happy.

Vegas at night may be a problem, I will be driving to Vegas for a few days (stopping at New York, New York) but I may only fly there in the day time. I will be night checked, but I don't fancy straying too far away at night.

Everyone says that ATC are excellent in the area, so I look forward to using there service.

Has anyone flown into Koak?

Thanks for the replies :ok:

[david viewing]

Some excellent points already made.

I flew the length of Death Valley last week. It's interesting at the moment because part of it is flooded!

It's true that it is surrounded by MOA's but the airspace within the valley is excluded below 3000' (Please be sure to check your chart on this). You are 'requested' to remain 2000' above the National Park (defined as the highest ground within 2000' of the aircraft) so you have a slot of 2000-3000' to cruise along. This is just as well since there is not much radio contact in the valley itself. You do have to cross the MOA to get in and out and radio contact may be a problem, but there is an FSS frequency at Furnace Creek and as said before, the MOA's are not restricted airspace. There's an article on MOA's in the current AOPA Pilot.

Regarding the Archer with 4 up (and presumably baggage), I wouldn't do that even at winter temps. Is it even permitted with full tanks in the w&b? I've actually witnessed 4 Brits turn up at an FBO in Vegas in the winter expecting to do this only to be told they need 2 aircraft or a twin.

Sedona is second nature to a UK pilot used to short runways and awkward approaches and a doddle compared with, say, Perranporth which is also on the edge of a cliff. But again, 4 up in a 180HP is marginal at best.

You don't need Oxygen in the Grand Canyon VFR corridors. Look at the special chart, which hasn't changed (unless I have this wrong) in about 10yrs or at National Park Service (http://www.nps.gov/grca/overflights/documents/maps/sfra4.pdf) . I've been up to 11,500 but never 13,500. There used to be a chart with photo's of the landmarks on the back but I don't know if it's still available. I have a description at my own site (http://www.viewing.com/arizona/canyon/canyon.htm) .

Appropo of the above, I wouldn't fly this trip now without at least a hand held GPS. Even the cheapest will allow you to enter the exit/entry points you need. (But I did fly this terrain repeatedly before I had a GPS!!). My own technique is to use the GPS as a cross check for conventional navigation, because identifying surface features is what VFR touring is all about.

[VisaGeeza]

Aircraft performance shouldn't be an issue, the runways will be long enough for you at Grand Canyon and Vegas and in fact everywhere else for that matter. the 180 Archer is more than adequate since it will be relatively cool. (providing there are no fatties on board) ATC will most likely vector you over the Hoover Dam from Las Vegas McCarran or North Las Vegas whichever you decide to rest the aircraft overnight. Signature at McCarran do charge for an overnight tie down and charge loads for fuel although they do discount the tie down if you buy fuel.

The approach into Vegas at night is absolutely superb!

I have never known any problems with engines or airframes with ADP aircraft but what are avionics?;) I know they have plenty of INOP's, they are all clearly labelled!:}

[Just another student]

david viewing.. There will only be 3 of us in the plane, and a tooth brush each lol We will be keeping baggage to a minimum!

Regarding a GPS I'm just having a look. Without spending silly money what would be a half decent unit to buy, possibly with a view to selling it on later?

Cheers

JAS

VisaGeeza ... So i should expect a HSI then ;) LOL

They seem a really nice bunch of people at ADP and as they say, you get what you pay for.

[slim_slag]

J a s,

you don't need a fancy aviation all singing and dancing GPS, I use an old Garmin 12XL, they are dead cheap on ebay. Just put the lat/long of your waypoint in and every now and again make sure the arrow is pointing someway forwards.

If you don't want to (or cannot with a loaded and tired 180HP) go up to 10,500 in the narrow corridors then you can still fly over the canyon to the west of GCN. David Viewing put up a good map, if you look at the blue routes from GCN those will take you to/from vegas and you will avoid the 14000ft areas. There is a VOR at GCN so just tune it up and fly the 270 radial (approx).

Grand Canyon was absolutely brass-monkey freezing recently, DA would not be a problem, but wind was strong and ceilings were very low and there was ice and snow around. Keeps the tourists away, rooms at the rim were dirt cheap and available on the day. It's a very beautiful place when the snow is 2 feet deep on the rim, in six months time you will be in shorts and T-shirts and drinking litres of fluid to keep hydrated.

Flying into LAS at night is great, they will vector you in so your final approach parallels the strip, make sure you do it at night. However if you are worried about flying to catalena in a SEP you will not like flying over the canyon and desert at night. If you lose your engine you are in a lot of trouble, though if it's a full moon you will be able to see enough to know what you are going to hit, but not quite well enough to know whether it's a nice surface until it's too late.

If you need any charts PM me and I'll post some, I have lots of old ones around but nothing much has changed, buy current ones when you get there.

[Just another student]

slim_slag.. thanks for that, I bet the Canyon will look amazing! I'm sticking with day time flying in any area I'm not too sure of. I'm quite surprised that you can pick up a GPS fairly cheaply now, can anyone suggest a suitable model? Something that will do the job nicely but it does not need all the bells and whistles!

As a VFR flight, can I except vectors? Daft question I know sorry :)

[Charlie Zulu]

VFR Flight Following is just that. They follow you along your route, giving you Altimeter Settings and any other information you request.

Each controller will hand you over to the next on a proper radar handover. They will vector you around traffic, they will even vector airliners around you.

When receiving a VFR Flight Following service and you're flying into a busy airfield such as San Jose they will ask if you're familiar with the area, if you reply "negative" (which is fine) then they will radar vector you onto downwind / base / final etc.

Class B controllers will normally vector VFR traffic around including altitudes, headings etc. If an instruction would take you into cloud then inform the controller that you are unable and suggest a different heading or altitude for them to give you.

One note... even if you're under a VFR Flight Following service. You are NOT cleared into Class B airspace until the controller says, "Arrow 47455 you are Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace at Five Thousand Five Hundred, Maintain Heading 190". Etc etc...

At bigger airfields at Class C / B airspace you will normally be given a Departure clearance such as "Arrow 47455 After Departure Climb runway heading 1000', left turn 140, climb and maintain 3000. Expect 6000 ten minutes after departure, Sqwark 2045", even if you're VFR (although the altitudes will be different)...

Don't forget to file your VFR Flight Plans when flying over the Desert, this can be done on the same great 1-800-WX-BRIEF number. Weather, NOTAMS etc... don't forget to ask for any TRA's, they should give them to you but at least if there are any problems and they get the tape recording out then you'll be on tape asking for such information.

Hope this helps.

Charlie Zulu.

[Just another student]

Cheers Charlie Zulie. I can live with vectors makes my life easier :D

What weather can I expect out there in late Jan / Feb? Good vis and no clouds hopefully :ok:

[david viewing]

Good vis and no clouds hopefully

Not necessarily. Storm systems sweep down from the NW at intervals and can persist for days. Yes, it rains in Arizona! It's a good plan to have a spare week in your itinerary to allow for this. Between the storms the weather can be glorious - no thermal turbulence, no cloud and little wind.

However, weather forcasting is on a different level to the tripe that we have to put up with and storms (and weather windows) are usually predicted days in advance. The all present Weather Channel gives you the picture wherever you are and the wonderful FSS briefers explain it to you in plain English. When they say "VFR not recommended" they mean it! So at least you can plan ahead.

[Just another student]

david viewing..... Hopefully on the days I have planned to be out at the GC the weather will be good enough to go. We are booked in at the Holiday Inn near the airport. Does anyone know the rough over night costs at KGCN? I believe that GC airlines run the FBO so i will contact them in advance. BTW Your website is very useful, thanks for that!

Is it worthwhile to purchase a Garmin GPSMAP 96 or maybe even a 196? We are talking a fair bit of money here but the GPS could provide an excellent tool for back up nav and avoiding the chance of busting airspace etc What are the added costs to buying one, software for USA, aerials etc ?

Cheers

JAS

[slim_slag]

ATC are under no obligation to provide VFR vectors in Class E, and funnily enough in Class E you are under no obligation to follow them even if they did. That's controversial, but you would be foolish not to listen to ATC unless you had a much better reason not to. If you want vectors you can say 'Will Accept Vectors' and they will magically start to arrive. ATC will bend over backwards to make sure you are given what you want, it's not often they say they are too busy, and when they do they will usually apologise and give you another frequency and/or time to try later.

In Class B, C, & D you have to do what you are told. Not all Class D have radar but B and C do, and you will find B and C controllers more likely to use it to move you around. Class D in SOCAL will have radar usually fed off some approach facility. You need to talk to the controller in charge of the C or D airspace before you can enter, talking with center using flight following does not allow you into C or D.

Top tip: if calling up blind just say 'Podunk Approach, N12345, VFR Request' and let them get back, they can be busy and don't want to hear your whole story at once. No problem prodding them every minute if they don't come back.

If you are renting out of somewhere in SOCAL, as part of your checkout get them to take you through all the ATC interactions you will have to make. It's pretty simple stuff, you can also listen to many US based tower/approach frequencies on the Net to get a hang of things.

Weather in Jan/Feb should be great for VFR, but there is some strange wet weather around right now in the SW, bit of a weird winter.

Again, all you need is a Garmin 12XL. A UK one will do fine, lat/long works the same in both places....

[Just another student]

ADP said that the check out will go through all the required ATC interaction etc So that should take some of the weight off my mind. I guess I will be slightly apprehensive until I am used to the area. I only have 83 hrs logged with Night and IMC privileges so this is a big adventure for me. I don't plan to do anything daft, just stay within my own capabilities and not compromise safety.

Thanks for all the tips regarding airspace, I passed my PPL in Florida and found ATC excellent there. But this is a different ball game!

What would I have to buy extra to operate the 12 xl in the US safely? They look to be around 190 ish to buy.

A 196 is about 478 GBP all in and includes yoke clip, external aerial etc

Thanks

JAS

[englishal]

When departing a Class C airport you would normally call up clearance delivery if they have one or ground if not and request Class charlie services or VFR flight following, for example:

"John Wayne Clearance, N12345 is a P28A slant golf at Signature with bravo, request Class charlie services from 19L"

or

"John Wayne Clearance, N12345 is a P28A slant golf at signature, request VFR flight following to Las Vegas at 9500 from 19L"

They will then issue a clearance along the lines of:

"N12345 after departure, make a left turn to 170°, (climb and maintain 5500) sqwark 4465 departure frequency is 127.2"

You then request taxy as usual and after takeoff you will be told to "contact departure". There is no need for all this phacer stuff, you simply switch to departure frequency and tell them "Socal departure, N12345 2000 for 5500" and they will then give some other instructions like "Radar contact, resume own navigation, climb and maintain 9500".

Actually this procedure works from many class D airports as well (Long Beach springs to mind) especially near major airports like LAX. Just call clearance and tell them you want VFR flight following to wherever before take off, then you get handed straight to the departure controller once you have departed. Usefull for ensuring you don't bust airspace, or hit anyone else :D

EDIT: I just read ypou passed the PPL in FLA....so most of this stuff you should know anyway....cheers

[NotamCheck]

I've flown with ADP before and most of their aircraft had working LORAN which is pretty accurate for a simple Lat/Lon so no GPS should be required. US maps have very clear lat/lon grids marked on them for quick reference. I flew around California/Nevada during Feb/Mar time and mountain flying never seemed a problem due to lack of any wind. Haze was always the biggest problem.

Bullhead city as already mentioned is a good base to avoid the smog of LA. Its got an very interesting steep taxi way! The only time performance seemed lacking was taking off from Grand Canyon towards the South (Density Altitude was 8000') and the climb out matched the rising ground below for the first 3 minutes, that was just the 2 of us. You can always plan your high altitude airfield visits early morning or at night when its cooler for extra safety. Just about every airfield there is available 24 hours with pilot activated runway lights.

[VisaGeeza]

Don't buy a GPS and then try to change the database, it doesn't work out. Buy a GPS with a database of the area you are going to fly in.

What part of the country are you? Anywhere near Brighton?

[Just another student]

I'm East Midlands Based if that helps. I have very little knowledge of GPS data bases etc so any help is appreciated!

:ok:

[VisaGeeza]

From what I understand, there is a hardware and a software data base. Essentally that means that if you use a UK GPS with americas software data base then you don't get to see useful bits like lakes and shorelines. I'm no expert but a guy did think that his UK Garmin I think it was would work ok in the USA with a software database update of the americas and it wasn't very satisfactory. If you change your location to a specific one, somebody living closer might contact you to let you borrow their americas GPS

[Just another student]

Sounds complex, does anyone know exactly how I would configure a Garmin 196 bought in the UK to operate in the Western USA? I will have to read up about this, but if anyone who has experience can help,that would be great!!

The 96C is not an option as by the time you add all the extras on, it is more expensive than a 196. Colour would be great, but is not really an option. I would like a big screen for clarity and certainly can not afford the 296 so a 196 seems best. It would seem that the Pilot 111 is being phased out so that is not an option unless cheap second hand. The 96 b/w looks ok, but the screen does seem small. I may aswell invest in something half decent :confused:


Cheers
JAS

[slim_slag]

Was it just this morning that I read

As for GPS...... I wish I could afford one as back up! I intend to really nail VFR planning etc hopefully that will stand me in good stead for my CPL! It does please me to see so many VOR's and NDB's on the charts though!

:)

You don't need a bloody GPS to do all the work for you, you are flying VFR! Get a cheap bottom of the line 5 year old piece of junk from ebay.co.uk, program your route lat/long waypoints into it and just use it to make sure you aren't totally lost!

[Just another student]

I often end up contradicting myself :O sorry

The more and more you think about something the more you tend to persuade yourself its the right thing to do. I had never really considered using a gps to be honest, I assumed they would be totally out of reach financially.

"As for GPS...... I wish I could afford one as back up! I intend to really nail VFR planning etc hopefully that will stand me in good stead for my CPL! It does please me to see so many VOR's and NDB's on the charts though!"

That still stands, I really want to improve my VFR work not only as it makes up substantial part of the CPL but it makes you a better Pilot. I have a tendency to just track VOR-VOR NDB-NDB, I want to get out of that habit.

Is cheap always the best option? Or is it better to get something I can use later on aswell that is not so out of date? :{

Cheers guys

[knobbygb]

Just echoing what others have already said by now, but...

I made a similar trip over there about this time last year (late February), also in a 180hp Archer. No problems with the aircraft performance, particularly as the weather was quite bad and the temperature not too high - (low 60's in Phoenix, low 40's at GCN - there was snow on the ground). We actually got stuck in Las Vegas for a day due to seriously crappity weather and had to cancel the planned trip out west to Death Valley due to snow storms over the mountains. Even if the weather had been hotter, performance wasn't an issue as of the places I went - even the smallest of 'unmanned' airports had around 4000ft of tarmac - long by my standards.

Departure from KGCN was the most challenging we had, performance wise. It's a very long runway, but the climbout is over trees in all directions with no clear place to make a forced landing. At perhaps 400ft per minute (2-up), I was quite a distance from the field before I felt truly comfortable. The FBO at GCN is adequate, but nothing more, with no real facilities or even room to do proper flight planning. Fuel was understandably expensive too.

I wouldn't worry too much about the VFR corridors over the Canyon - so long as you've studied the chart, the landmarks are quite easy to spot - there are disinctively shaped ground features all over the place. When we were there, I made regular position reports but we didn't see or hear a single other aircraft (midweek, about lunch time if that makes a difference). 10,500ft (southbound) was no problem in the Archer - and after we cleared the special airspace I actually climbed up to about 12,000ft - just for the hell of it - and she still wanted to go higher.

If you're going to Vegas and want to avoid the high parking and fuel charges at McCarran, North Las Vegas (KVGT) provided excellent service including a free shuttle to downtown hotels (but not return). The 'Showboat' VFR transition takes you in from Hoover Dam, just south of McCarran before turning right into KVGT. If you do this, the controllers are very helpful, but BE CAREFUL with your assigned altitude - I was 'told off' for exceeeding altitude by about 70 feet - and there was an Embrear 140 passing about 200 or 300ft above us, so I can understand why. We deprted VGT to the north east under the control of Nellis Approach - they were very helpful and vectored us around their area as there was quite a bit of military traffic.

Whatever you choose to do - enjoy it (it'd be difficult not to) - and let us know how it goes - I'm happy to talk about this stuff all day (as you probably guessed by now), so PM my if you like.

Oh, and thanks again to David Viewing whos website was really useful in planning my trip - I'd just about decided I wasn't up to the Canyon overflight before I read his advice.

[Just another student]

I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed your flying out there. How many were onboard when you took off from GCN?

[knobbygb]

Just two of us - maybe 400lb inc. bags.

You can see what I mean about the terrain from this (http://www.jenna-c.co.uk/images/Airzona04/023%20gcn_downwind.jpg) photo (sorry about the scan quality) - we're well downwind and still less than 1000ft above the ground. That view is looking east on a left downwind after departing 03, by the way. A seriously long runway, but little choice should the worst happen once you're over the fence.

[david viewing]

Regarding GCN, don't forget temperature is on your side and it's light by 6.45 now so plan early. Serious study of the POH called for! I'm sorry I forgot to get the parking charges but I doubt it's more than a few $. No landing fee. Worst thing about GCN is the taxis which take ages to come and charge $20 to the rim. Hopefully the Holiday has a pick-up?

I use an ancient Garmin 92 as backup with both an Americas and 'International' database on floppy disk. I swap the databases using the supplied cable when I get back. It's completely adequate for my purpose of:

Verifying VFR navigation
Confirming that you are about to land at the right airport
Giving a 'direct to' if the weather turns grotty
Allowing custom entry of waypoints like the corridors
Giving a position in Lat/Long should you need it in emergency

I'm happy to second what's been said about VGT. They are really helpful there. Best bet for accomodation is the 'Texas' just down the road but if you want to go to the strip they have a huge list of phone nos. and calls are free. You can usually get a better rate by calling a few on the day than booking ahead provided it's not a big convention week.

[Just another student]

I contacted KGCN, they don't charge for aircraft parking which is amazing! I don't go out to the GC until the 10th Feb so I have some time to get hold of the Archer POH and start number crunching! GC is possibly the only hot and high (so to speak) airport we will be landing at, the rest I plan to bypass enroute. But again, this will all be sorted in the planning stage.

I am worried about getting out of the ground effect and into a safe climb :( I would hate to miss out, but if it aint safe we won't go.

Cheers

[knobbygb]

Hope I haven't given you an impression it wasn't safe by what I said above. The runway is HUGE - I just wanted to save taxi time (the ramp is right at the NE end) and departed from half way along which meant we were still quite low over the fence. For what it's worth I never actually had to do any serious performance calculations for the whole trip - it just wasn't hot enough to matter. At that time of year anywhere high up is quite cold.

[englishal]

A good technique to assess your ability to get back into the air is when on downwind to land, put the A/C into takeoff configuration, apply full power and see how well she climbs. And don't forget correct leaning prior to takeoff at high altitude airports.

In my experience, 3 up in a reasonably good 180HP archer in that part of the USA should be ok at that time of year......(but don't take my word for it !)

[Just another student]

The amount of times I have heard 200hp arrow, 2 up, and struggled to take off does worry me a little. But when people mention temps, they are much higher than the temps will be in early Feb ( I hope).

I will try and give myself as much runway as possible, generally if a runway is huge, it is for a reason LOL

I'm not scared as such, just apprehensive. I would rather be this way than take risks etc

If I get out there and it turns out that the wx allows me to land at places like Palm Springs etc then I will be chuffed, but I think its best that I wait and see?

Cheers

[slim_slag]

I just wanted to save taxi time (the ramp is right at the NE end) and departed from half way along which meant we were still quite low over the fence.

:uhoh: :ooh: :uhoh:

I am worried about getting out of the ground effect and into a safe climb

Now that is what I want to hear, shows somebody is thinking about this.

Garmin 12XLs going on ebay.co.uk for £50 or less. I don't know why this one should go out of date, the shape of the earth isn't reported to be changing significantly and the satellites are being maintained for the forseeable future.

True, you don't need a GPS to navigate the Grand Canyon corridors, but why stress out about busting airspace a mile or two off your wingtip when you are supposed to be enjoying the view? The lat/long coordinates of the ends of the corridors are on the chart for a reason. Fly visually for the rest of the trip, but use your technological tools when it makes sense to do so.

And student, what's an NDB??? :E

[Just another student]

NDB.......? Not exactly sure but I know that they virtually don't exist over there, a bit like round-a-bouts! :D

Isn't there a danger of buying an old GPS then not being able to up date the data? That is my main concern about buying dated equipment. You go onto the garmin website and it mentions 28 day up dates. I know nothing about GPS, except what my studies told me during my theory exams.

I agree that we should take advantage of modern day technology when we can. The danger exisits that people use GPS only to navigate and when their GPS breaks, they are left in stuck.

Slim_slag do you use a 12 xl or similar? You have probably mentioned it so I apologise in advance :O

[englishal]

JAS,

do you have an IPAQ or other similar PDA....or have use of one?....you can donwload the proper electronic secional charts to use on these devices which show actual position when combined with GPS.....

PS there is a proper round-a-bout at Long Beach and it is scary watching the Americans negotiate it :D

Cheers

[david viewing]

Many GPS, even the old 92 I mentioned, have a worldwide database of airports and they don't move. The downloads overlay airspace information which you have on the chart anyway.

[Just another student]

A trip to Long Beach maybe in order then :D

I was given a Palm Pilot for my 18th 4 years ago, but I doubt it will have the technology to utilise GPS.

I am trying to find out if ADP rent GPS units, if they do then problem solved. If not, ebay or buying over there may well be the answer. I would like to buy new if possible and get a gurantee. But if i'm only spending 50 GBP on an old unit, I'm very indecisive when it comes to spending money :)

[slim_slag]

student,

I look at these 28 day update plans as a way to guarantee extra recurring revenue for the GPS company. If you are flying IFR you need to update the database, flying VFR you can update it yourself when you enter your route. It's your money, but at your stage of training you should be spending it on hours instead of overly fancy GPS gadgets which will take the edge off your VFR navigational skills. IMHO.

Another thing to add to DViewings sensible list of reasons to use a GPS VFR is it tells you your ground speed exactly so you can work out time to destination with a high degree of certainty which is good for confirming fuel calculations.

englishal, I think that Long Beach roundabout has a special lane on it which lets traffic enter and not 'yield', so it's not a real one :) The only other roundabouts I can think of west of the mississippi are at Vail. A great place to spectate Texan drivers who don't have a clue in snow and ice, never mind roundabouts. Plenty of roundabouts back east, but they still don't have a clue how to navigate them....

[Just another student]

It's your money, but at your stage of training you should be spending it on hours instead of overly fancy GPS gadgets which will take the edge off your VFR navigational skills. IMHO.


I agree, believe me!Financially I'm looking at the possibility of buying one then selling it on after my hour building perhaps. Yes I will lose some money, but the product will only be a couple of months old so I should get a fair price. Either that, or as you say buy a cheap older unit.

As for taking the edge off my VFR nav skills, that's a major worry.

[englishal]

englishal, I think that Long Beach roundabout has a special lane on it which lets traffic enter and not 'yield', so it's not a real one
Ah but that is only heading South on the PCH. Which makes it doubly interesting watching them join from some of the other exits (in the case of my borther-in-law, look straight ahead and floor it...:oh: )

It used to be called a "Traffic Circle" but they've now changed the waring signs to "Roundabout" which means it must have official status.

:}

[david viewing]

Roundabouts:

One in Lubbock, Texas many years ago that I came to late at night with no other traffic to follow and afterwards could not recall which way I had gone round it!

One in Carson City, built recently as part of the new bypass with a sign saying "roundabout" and arrow signs so you are in no doubt. I hope they are paying the UK Government a royalty for these.

Oh, and one in a new residential development at South Mountain in Phoenix that's combined with a lack of direction signs to discourage through traffic. Very British!

[Cusco]

JAS

I rented ADP's Arrow 3 N4755with Keef last April for a spot of flying 40hours (20 ish each).

I have to say it was pretty clapped out but its 200HP got us (we're both pretty big) and luggage where we wanted to go.

It has enough grunt for Big Bear tho' three up I don't know.

Most have already listed places to go, so I won't comment further except to say the Insurance won't allow you to go to Sedona or Catalina.

The Arrer had barely enough grunt to cross the grand canyon (10,000ft IIRC), but it did and we've some amazing pics to show for it.

Try and go to Death Valley if only to get a photo on the ground of your altimeter reading minus 200ft.

Also ask LAX and SFA to let you do the Bay tours: truly stunning.

Other places worth a visit: Palm Springs, Lake Havasu City (fun with 2 greens there), Page Az., And for some really way out places, Chiriaco Summit, Agua Dulce and Harris Ranch.

If you go to Las Vegas , land at North Las Vegas not LV McArran international (cheaper, unless you really want to pay squillions just for the log book entry.)


Don't faff around with trying to put US database in your existing GPS : I picked up a Pilot111 with US database brand new via e mail via Sporty's, which I shall keep for US trips:

You can still buy 'em and Garmin will support them for some years:

I bodged a yoke mount from my old GPS90 mount which worked perfectly well without ext ariel.

(Except for a spot of GPS Jamming from an adjacent USAF base shortly after leaving Death Valley.


You can leave accomodation till you get there : the FBOs are more than happy to fix you up.

We got VIP treatment from Raytheon (makers of citation jets) at Van Nuys:- coffee ,minibus to hotel, pick up in morning for absolutely nada.

Enjoy yourself:

Cusco (envious : no Bl**dy jealous!)