Advice On Motor Gliders

[silvereagle]

I've been flying for over 25 years and have just about done it all. I've been very fortunate to have other people fund the majority of my flying (thank you all you tax payers!).

I've done rotary as well as fixed wing and you know, I really can't decide which is better. The majority of my recreational flying has been done on the standard 4 seat American SEP, but for the majority of the time, there was just me in the aircraft!

I have a share in an aircraft at the moment but having seen some of the newer motor gliders, I thought I might just move away from that arrangement and get my own motor glider. Why motor glider? Well, I love the feeling of just being airborne. I do not need to get to places at 140 kts and believe the motor glider probably represents some of the cheapest flying you can do. I seldom need to fly with anyone else (indeed when I need to I have access to several suitable aircraft). I never carry much kit and am not into inter continental excursions. Hangarage is not a problem and I have somewhere to fly in and out of.

I have never flown one (I plan to at my local gliding club shortly), but I thought I would canvass opinion on the pros and cons. You are usually brutally honest about these things so - what do you think? Is this a don't touch it with a bargepole or is it a sensible wheeze? I am happy to spend up to 30 grand.

[topcat450]

Whilst I'm not in a position to talk about Motor Gliders, if you're thinking of spending upto £30K for an aircraft, there are plenty of PFA machines which can be bought for half that figure that still have cheap-as-chips running costs.

Austers, Jodels, Aeronca's, Taylorcraft, Cubs can all bring cheap & cheerful flying.

'twas just an idea for you.

TC (a PFA convert)

[Rod1]

I have not flown any of the more expensive motor gliders, but the low cost ones tend to be poor gliders and poor aircraft. I would tend to agree with TC that some of the PFA fleet would do better at the same or lower cost. A Jodel, Aeronca or a Europa would all do the job within your price range.

Rod1

[silvereagle]

Thanks. I already have a Europa! It's fun but I want to try something a little different. I don't think I want a heavy old motor glider but some of the newer ones look really interesting. (Lambada, Whisper aircraft of SA etc).

[MLS-12D]

If I were you, I would stay away from the low-performance two-seaters (e.g. Diamond Xtreme, Viviat, etc.), which are neither fish nor fowl and are essentially incapable of genuine soaring (for a contrary view, see "Motorgliders are the Best" (http://www.wgc.mb.ca/sac/freeflight/03_05.pdf), Free Flight issue 5/03, p.17). You'd be much better off getting a single-seater with a small retractable engine; see generally "Flying Motorgliders" (http://www.wgc.mb.ca/sac/freeflight/03_06.pdf), Free Flight issue 6/03, page 10.

If two seats are imperative, you need a Stemme, but you certainly won't get one of those for only £30K.

[Skylark4]

Silvereagle,
To give reasonable advice, we need to know if you are a glider pilot. Basically, have you got a Silver "C" Badge or better?

Mike W

[MLS-12D]

Hi Mike,

I presume he is an experienced soaring pilot (after all, he has "just about done it all").

If not, I'd suggest that prior to making any purchase decisions he should learn to fly unpowered sailplanes to at least a BGA Bronze C standard, with x-country endorsement.

Cheers,

MLS

[Skylark4]

MLS-12D,
He makes no mention of it. I don't think he has. We'll see when he answers.
I suspect that he doesn't need to spend £30.000. A Fournier would serve him well for what he seems to want to do.

Thank you for the links to 'Free Flight', I hadn't come across it before and it's good.

Mike W

[MLS-12D]

You are most welcome.

Free access to all back issues of Free Flight are available here (http://www.sac.ca/fflight.htm). There is also an index feature that you can use to search out articles on particular issues.

I wish the SSA's Soaring (http://www.ssa.org/magazine/) was also available free of charge (although IMHO it is not as good a publication as Free Flight); and the BGA should make Sailplane and Gliding equally accessible. After all, most soaring issues are universal, and we should all help one another out. Perhaps it will happen one day; until then, at least an on-line index (http://soaring.aerobatics.ws/SOARING/JL/Soaring_Index/) of articles in Soaring is available, which is (slightly) better than nothing.

I suppose a Monnett Monerai might be another cheap motorglider that might suit someone with limited soaring ambitions.

[shortstripper]

Yes ... I think there's a Monnet on www.afors.com or www.thehangar.co.uk at the moment?

SS

[silvereagle]

Thanks guys. Yes, just about done it all does suggest that I haven't done a few things! Gliding is one of them. As I say, I have the opportunity to fly at my local gliding club (.8 of a mile from my front door!) so I intend to do just that. Can anyone point me in the direction of what the various glider qualifications mean?

[Chilli Monster]

'A' certificate - first solo

'B' - Don't worry about it!

Bronze 'C' - 2 x 30 minute soaring flights, 50 solo launches, a field landing check and some form of test that encompasses necessary air law / general flying principles (It's basically a check to make sure you're safe to be let loose cross country)

Silver 'C' - 1000m height gain, 50 km cross country, 5 hour soaring flight (all can be done separately, not necessarily the same trip)

Gold 'C' - 3000m height gain, 300km cross country (see below), 5 hour soaring flight (normally signed up when you apply for the Silver above)

Diamonds - 5000m height gain, 500km cross country, 300km pre declared 'goal' flight (normally triangular - can be done as the Gold 'C' cross country also).

Be interested to know what you go for - might even be interested if you end up selling shares :)

[Birdwatcher]

Hi all

CM may be a tad out of date (aren't we all: I'll be 40 this year!). There's now a Cross-Country Endorsement before they let you loose out of gliding range of your home site. See

http://www.gliding.co.uk/learningtoglide/thebadgesystem.htm

for the whole system explained.

Whatever you end up buying, the thrill of staying airborne using only the weather and your own skill and judgment takes some beating.

Gliding: for the pilot who has everything else ;-)

BW

[Chilli Monster]

Cheers BW - didn't realise it was an actual requirement, just thought it was an additional certificate.

Here's a thought - what about someone with a Silver 'C' who doesn't have one (coming back to gliding after a long lay off), or someone who has a lot of cross country time powered? The requirements in terms of the 2 x 1 hour and 1 x 2 hour soaring flights before you can go cross country seem a little onerous to me, especially with the vagaries of UK weather. ( I think I had 1 flight over an hour and 1 over 2 hours before doing my 50km).

[Skylark4]

Silvereagle,
Your situation is as I expected and therefore my (unqualified) advise is as follows.
Go and join your local gliding club. do not hide the fact that you are an experienced power pilot but do not expect to have a quick check ride and be sent off solo. Gliders are very different aeroplanes to anything you have flown before and you are going to have to seriously unlearn some very bad habits and learn some new techniques. I don't know which club you are going to join but please remember that there are probably NO paid employees and ALL the work is done by the members, that includes you. Gliding is (relatively) cash cheap but is definitely time expensive. At our club you are expected to be present to get the kit out or to put it away. It is not done to turn up late, have a trip and go away. Actually, if you do turn up late, your name will probably never get to the top of the flying list anyway. Training flights are usually done two or three at a time, assuming this is a winch launching site. once you have gone solo, things get a bit easier. There is usually a shorter list for the single seat aircraft and, if you buy into a syndicate, the list is one name long, you just have to wait for a launch.

Once you have done this and spent a fair time chatting to people who know more than you do about gliding and probably many other things, you will have a much better idea as to what you should be looking to buy.

You could go and buy a Touring Motorglider, do some difference training and go flying but you will be wasting a lot of potential. Tourers are not exceptionally good soaring aircraft but they do soar and the engine power is low so that intelligent use of thermals and other forms of lift can significantly improve the performance, and fun. I have a share in an SZD 45 Ogar Motorglider which has a better glide performance than the Olympia 2b in which I did my Silver C. You may find that your priorities change once you know and understand a bit more about gliding. If the soaring becomes more important, you may prefer to buy a self launching sailplane. This is the type which is really a fairly, or very, high performance glider with a retractable engine. It is not very effective as a powered cruiser but it does allow you to go gliding without any ground organisation, assuming you have somewhere to keep it in a rigged state.

Executive Summary:-
Go and do some Gliding.
Motorgliders are not Noddy aircraft that anyone can fly. You must get difference training. In my opinion, from the pure aircraft handling point of view, Touring motorgliders are more difficult to fly than your conventional SEP.

Good Luck

Mike W

[shortstripper]

Out of interest and as semi-hypothetical question. How does the law stand on owning and operating a glider outside of a club?

For instance. If I wished as a PPL A, to keep a glider on my farm strip and launch it from here, would I be outside the law?

I'm not looking for advice as to the sensibility of doing this, purely how it would stand from a legal point of view.

SS

[MLS-12D]

silvereagle: if you haven't done gliding, there is a huge gap in your flying experience. Good on you for recognizing that ... you will have lots of fun filling it!

I agree with Mike's advice, above.

You might want to obtain a copy of Derek Piggott's book, Gliding Safety, which has a helpful chapter on experienced powered pilots converting to gliders. Alternatively there is a complete book (http://www.eglider.org/catalog/items/item195.htm) on the topic, but that would probably be overkill and, being written by an American (albeit an experienced and internationally recognized instructor), probably contains some information that is inapplicable to you in the UK. Piggott's book would be much better, especially as it contains great advice on various other topics and will remain useful after you have completed your basic gliding training.

This article (http://www.glidingmagazine.com/FeatureArticle.asp?id=301) is written for complete novices (vice converting power pilots), but will give you some idea of what you will experience at the soaring club.

Out of interest and as semi-hypothetical question. How does the law stand on owning and operating a glider outside of a club? If I wished as a PPL A, to keep a glider on my farm strip and launch it from here, would I be outside the law?To the best of my knowledge, a private glider is effectively no different from the legal status of other private aircraft and need not be operated within the structure of a club.

If you were in Canada, I would tell you that you require a valid Glider Pilot License to operate any glider (private or club); a PPL(A) is insufficient. But as the UK has no such license (which can be a small administrative headache for glider pilots hoping to fly outside of the UK), you should contact the BGA (http://www.gliding.co.uk/) and ask them what you'll need to do to be 'legal' piloting gliders.

Finally, although I appreciate that you are "not looking for advice as to the sensibility of doing this", I can't help but add that IMHO soaring at a club is a lot better than doing your own thing at a private airstrip. You'll miss out on the social atmosphere and spirit of mutual assistance that prevails at any good gliding club. And of course you can't fly pure sailplanes (as opposed to motorgliders) out of a private field, unless you have a towplane or winch and someone to operate them.

[shortstripper]

Thanks MLS

It's just an idea but I've nearly completed my Slingsby T31m motor glider conversion of a T31. I thought it might be fun to source another fuselage and use the wings to fly it occassionally as a two seat glider. Don't worry, I'm not a novice and have a Silver C (although it's been a while!). As for launching ... well let's just say, I have ways :E

It'll probably never happen BTW ... but it would be nice to know if it's possible. :ok:

SS

[silvereagle]

Thanks, Mike. All sound advice. Where do you fly? I suspect we live fairly close to one another. I am just a stone's throw from Sandhill Farm.

[Skylark4]

Silvereagle,
Gliders with Oxford Gliding Club at Weston on the Green and the Ogar lives at Hinton in the Hedges. I'm sure we would be pleased to see you at Weston but Sandhill Farm is probably your best bet as it is so close. I think they operate basically weekends only as do we. Send me a PM if you need more info..

Mike W

[Sedbergh]

Silvereagle

Interesting hypothetical question which you asked about the independent operation of a glider.

The government/CAA long ago delegated all responsibility for glider operation to the BGA. I don't know (doubt it) if there's any provision for non-BGA controlled sailplane operation (as distinct from hang gliders)

If you approached the BGA for permission they'd say "Form a club and pay us the annual fees, plus all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor" Cos that's the rule.

The BGA issues annual glider CofA certification after a BGA inspector has checked the aircraft. I don't know whether the CofA would be legal outside the BGA/club environment. No CofA = no legal insurance etc etc.

To launch a glider you need a minimum of a tug or winch, operator for the above, plus someone to hold the wing, plus someone to signal to the operator.

And someone has to tow you off the strip when you've landed - it begins to sound like a club type organisation is necessary just to physically get it off the ground doesn't it?

None of the above applies to a motor glider which can self launch, either a "proper" sailplane with pop-up engine or a "long winged power aircraft" but they are covered by CAA regulation re pilot's licence, CofA, G-XXXX registration etc etc.

[Rod1]

Why not just fit the motor glider wings to the Europa? The performance is said to be very good.

Rod1

[MLS-12D]

The government/CAA long ago delegated all responsibility for glider operation to the BGA. I don't know (doubt it) if there's any provision for non-BGA controlled sailplane operation (as distinct from hang gliders).
If you approached the BGA for permission they'd say "Form a club and pay us the annual fees, plus all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor" Cos that's the rule.I don't want to be excessively negative, since I have not personally flown in the BGA environment and there may be hidden advantages of which I am aware. However, the 'rule' you describe sounds unreasonably oppressive.

all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructorIf the above is accurate, it would seem that the BGA does not distinguish between the judgment of a novice student pilot and a triple diamond experienced soaring pilot ... which would self-evidently be a ridiculous policy.

:confused:

[MikeGodsell]

Silvereagle might also as a qualified power pilot, observe the way glider people operate. Vis:

Do all the gliders have a radio? Do the glider pilots use it not just to talk to other gliding people but to the ATC services in the area they propose to fly? Given the wandering flight patterns of gliders, how do they minimise the possibility of collision with other airspace users?

MG: :hmm:

[Chilli Monster]

Do all the gliders have a radio?

No. Those that do may only have the "pre-select" sets with just the gliding frequencies and maybe a local airfield available. Modern cross country machines however do tend to have 720/760 channel sets (why spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar).

Do the glider pilots use it not just to talk to other gliding people but to the ATC services in the area they propose to fly?

You're actually asking the wrong question. When it's a nice day and you're providing a service to 15-16 aircraft do you really want to speak to the 40 gliders on a cross country task? NO!. If you think that's possible then come and swap jobs and we'll see how long you last ;)

Given the wandering flight patterns of gliders, how do they minimise the possibility of collision with other airspace users?

Same way other airspace users should do it when VFR - by looking out the window. The average cross country glider pilot tends to fly more by feel, with the majority of the head/eye movement being outside, constantly looking for other aircraft, sources of lift, and places to land if it comes to that. No engine instruments to monitor, no speed to monitor, no altitude to constantly maintain. Even variometers (the instrument that tells you whether you're in climbing or descending air) is audio rather than visual. Even the view is better (no structurre around the canopy) unlike your average PA28/C172.

If you see a glider, chances are they saw you a lot earlier. If you don't see one the chances are they've still seen you.

And that's from all three viewpoints - ATCO, Glider Pilot and Powered Pilot.

[MikeGodsell]

Thanks Chli Monster.
Nice to know the gliders will be looking out for other traffic.
But not sure I am reassured, if there are 40 + gliders at variable heights, and directions, not talking to ATC, and possibly ahead of me. Roll on mode "S" for ALL aircraft I say.
MG:(
Sorry to go on a bit particularly as this was debated at length on an earlier thread.

[Chilli Monster]

But not sure I am reassured, if there are 40 + gliders at variable heights, and directions, not talking to ATC, and possibly ahead of me. Roll on mode "S" for ALL aircraft I say.

Neither of the above would achieve anything, so wishing for it is a pointless exercise.

From the ATC point of view - you can't avoid what you can't see. If you don't like that then get an IR and fly permanently in Controlled Airspace where it's a known traffic environment. Think yourself lucky the UK attempts to provide some form of service in Class 'G' airspace - most others either say 'you're on your own' or make it Class 'E'. That would be an end to people flying IFR without a clearance which you can do in Class 'G'.

Listen to London info on a good summers weekend - the frequency's clogged up with a lot of transmissions which are pointless and unnecessary, stopping them from doing their proper job by idiots who think talking to someone alleviates them from the responsibilities of good airmanship.

From the Mode 'S' point of view - again, it wouldn't achieve a great deal. Is your aircraft going to be equipped with TCAS II v7 or better? I doubt it. So once again you're relying on the guy on the ground to point it out to you. What if there isn't one? (I can think of several big holes in the area you fly in - especially at weekends).

You have to understand the nature and supply of ATC in this country before you can sweeping statements like those above. If you're not in that position it's best to say nothing I'm afraid. Also if you have some axe to grind about the gliding community maybe looking at your own 'modus operandii' first and seeing if there are any flaws there is a better way to start.

(Apologies for taking the thread off topic)

[MikeGodsell]

Thanks again Chli Monster.
Putting transponders on gliders is going to be a problem. But new lightweight equipment with a TCAS function is part of the mode 'S' concept for the future.

ATC black holes exist all over Africa, and it was our practice in BOAC/BA to make "all station" calls on the local published VHF frequency, or the bush frequency (usually 123.45) This enabled the various airlines to coordinate our flight levels, and cross check our positions without any ATC input. In the "black" areas we would make all station calls at 10 min intervals, and listen out continually. Same practice flying in S Africa on PA 28s, only this time the "bush frequency" is published on the charts.

My point is that in uncontrolled airspace with no ATC service, then ALL aircraft should be listening out for, and making all station calls. So that we ALL have adequate situational awareness. Perhaps the new CAA safetycom 135.475 should be used for this.

MG

[MLS-12D]

Sorry to go on a bit particularly as this was debated at length on an earlier thread.Too right. This slagging of soaring pilots has more that already run its course.

I've said it before, but as this unpleasant can of worms has been re-opened, I'll say it again: no one who does not have substantial experience of both powered and soaring flight is in any position to intelligently comment upon (far less criticize) either of those two forms of recreational aviation.

Do all the gliders have a radio? Do the glider pilots use it not just to talk to other gliding people but to the ATC services in the area they propose to fly? Given the wandering flight patterns of gliders, how do they minimise the possibility of collision with other airspace users?My sincere and well-meant advice to MG and all other power pilots who perceive sailplanes as an undue hazard is to repair to the nearest gliding club and do a conversion course. You will learn a lot, have fun, make new friends, become a better pilot, and come away with a new appreciation for why gliders do what they do.

[Skylark4]

Mike Godsell,
To operate in the way you envisage, every aircraft needs a crew of four. One to fly the aircraft, one Radio Operator to transmit position reports on the "Bush Frequency" and the airfield frequencies of all nearby airfields and listen out for replies. I guess a multiple radio fit is needed too. One Navigator to update the Radio Operator with the current position, speed, track and alt. and to plot the reported positions of any replies the radio operator has managed to decipher and an Obsever to assist with lookout.
A Radio is not an anti Collision device.

Mike W

[chrisN]

MLS-12D posted 20th January 2005 16:22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The government/CAA long ago delegated all responsibility for glider operation to the BGA. I don't know (doubt it) if there's any provision for non-BGA controlled sailplane operation (as distinct from hang gliders).
If you approached the BGA for permission they'd say "Form a club and pay us the annual fees, plus all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor" Cos that's the rule.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't want to be excessively negative, since I have not personally flown in the BGA environment and there may be hidden advantages of which I am aware. However, the 'rule' you describe sounds unreasonably oppressive.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the above is accurate, it would seem that the BGA does not distinguish between the judgment of a novice student pilot and a triple diamond experienced soaring pilot ... which would self-evidently be a ridiculous policy.
[end of quote from MLS-12D].

1. Gliders and glider pilots are exempt from many parts of the UK Air Navigation Order, hence no need for registration, CofA, or pilot's licence. Hence it is perfectly legal to acquire and fly a glider from a private airstrip with no CofA, no insurance, no registration, and no pilot's licence. Of course, certain laws must be followed - no use of radio unless meeting the correct regulations, no entry into controlled airspace except in accordance, etc.

At any point in time there is nearly always one or another UK gliding operation not a member of the BGA, and that is quite legal. (Whether wise is a different matter - the question did not ask that, and I am not going to be drawn into it here.) I know of one such non-BGA yet AIUI legal operation at present.

2. The CAA did not delegate gliding to the BGA, it exempted gliders and their pilots from some aspects of the law when drafting it, and Parliament passed the law that way.

It may or may not be true that the CAA did it because they were satisfied that the BGA maintains a good enough control on the whole.

3. The BGA is the sum total of its member clubs. If they are satisfied that their rules are sensible, it is not for non-members to say they are not. If you join, you follow. If you won't follow the rules, don't join, or else risk being thrown out (which has happened).

4. "all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor". Rubbish - the writer quoted has misled MLS 12D. (If anyone says to the contrary, please quote chapter and verse. I am a former editor of "Laws and Rules for Glider Pilots", published by the BGA, and I know of no such blanket prohibition.)

Of course, certain aspects of flying at BGA member clubs have to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor - it would be irresponsible not to. How would you like to be trained, or have your kids flown, by someone who is self taught and not qualified? Outside the BGA, you can. Inside, you have to follow its rules.


5. " . . . the BGA does not distinguish between the judgment of a novice student pilot and a triple diamond experienced soaring pilot ...". Oh yes it does. Experienced pilots can fly without the presence of an instructor if their own gliding club permits it. No BGA rule forbids that. Some individual gliding clubs might - again, if you join a club you agree to its rules. Or get them changed from within, should enough others agree with you.

6. EASA is going to change some of the above anyway. It will add nothing to BGA gliding club safety IMHO, and a lot to costs, but it might make some non-BGA glider flying illegal - I don't know the details yet. And it may become true that certain things will be "derogated" (similar to, but AIUI not legally identical to "delegated") by the CAA to the BGA then - but not yet.

Hope that helps understanding somewhat.

Chris N.

[shortstripper]

Hi Chris

Regarding EASA, have they stuck to their guns over making gliders and sailplanes comply to full airworthiness certification? If I recall they proposed to remove the BGA inspectorate system. I hope they haven't or it could be the end of gliding in the UK as we know it!

SS

[MikeGodsell]

Oh dear how easy it is to offend!

Intelligent use of a radio, giving GPS or map position, takes a few seconds, and situation awareness is updated for all who listen out.

I would like to go from A to B without hitting anything. But if there are a lot of gliders on route, without radios, without transponders, difficult to see at the best of times, and manoevering at variable altitudes, the chances of a midair seem high! No wonder glider pilots wear parachutes.

MG :(

[shortstripper]

Yes it is quite easy to offend when you set out to do so.

What use is it to give out continually changing gps position when altitude and direction are also continually changing? Not to mention the airwave clutter from tens of gliders all giving similar approximates!

As previously mentioned by somebody else, most glider pilots fly by feel and maintain a constant lookout. The distraction of continually checking exact gps position to give blind radio calls might just add to the far more real risk of hitting other gliders sharing the same thermal (which is why they wear parachutes). And for what? to allow some PPL (who might just be in the area) to fly so wrapped up in himself that he can't be arsed look out of the window!

If you want to feel safe in a cocoon under the percieved protection of ATC, transponders, radios ect (basically anything other than your own effort), then fly IFR. Better still, stay on the ground in bed and hope your heart can take it! ;)

SS

[chrisN]

SS, the EASA situation is not entirely clear, but the latest I heard from the BGA is that it is intended to leave the present BGA inspectors with most of the capabilities they have now, but subject to more overseeing from outside the BGA than hitherto, and with some extra costs for the latter. If the CAA is able to derogate its supervisory powers to the BGA, with only occasional spot checks or something by the CAA itself (acting as the local branch of EASA, which I believe is all it is now), that will certainly help.

The latest I have heard limits what BGA inspectors and also glider owners can do compared with the BGA-only regime. Examples: I used to be able to fit, service or replace instruments, with only an inspector's signature required if I did something significantly different. Now only inspectors can. They used to be able to fit additional instruments etc. - now, at least one interpretation is that they have to seek modification approval from the glider manufacturer.

It is not yet set in concrete.

Mike G, your fears about collisions are understandable, but the figures do not support your apparent belief as to where the greatest danger lies. Most power collisions are with the ground, i.e. CFIT. Those with other flying things are mostly with other power. GA power/glider collisions are the least frequent of all - only about 3 in the UK in the last 30 years, at least one of which was in the circuit of a gliding site which the power pilot infringed.

Most glider collision are with other gliders. A few with powered aircraft are with glider tugs from the same site as the glider. The least frequent type is one with a powered aircraft nothing to do with gliding, i.e. the same 3 in 30 years.

Chris N.

[MLS-12D]

But if there are a lot of gliders on route, without radios, without transponders, difficult to see at the best of times, and manoevering at variable altitudes, the chances of a midair seem high!The accident statistics provide absolutely no support for that statement.

What use is it to give out continually changing gps position when altitude and direction are also continually changing? Not to mention the airwave clutter from tens of gliders all giving similar approximates!Yes; exactly right. And the radio is already far too crowded already with people broadcasting long-winded position reports every two minutes (see generally here (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/183931-1.html)).

Excellent post shortstripper. :ok: