Radar / Tower

[Sky Conductor]

Quick question...

Are there any Airports in the uk and beyond who have Tower and Approach Radar combined in the VCR worked by the same ATCO? I know Procedural Approach and Tower are combined in alot of smaller fields. If so..is it just Primary or Primary/SSR? Are they also Ground? Is it difficult looking out the window controlling the circuit one minute and looking at a screen vectoring aircraft for approach the next?

Ok so thats about 4 quick questions...just curious!!

[You what?]

You can't provide a radar service from a VCR, has to be in a separate room.

[Chilli Monster]

You What is slightly incorrect.

In the UK it's illegal to provide approach radar services whilst providing aerodrome control - it has to be two separate people.

However - there is a tower where the two are in the same room - Norwich when Coltishall is closed (Approach Radar normally being provided from a console there).

[You what?]

However - there is a tower where the two are in the same room - Norwich when Coltishall is closed (Approach Radar normally being provided from a console there).

But the CAA have issued a requirement to have it re-located.

Until last year (or year before that), Southend had a similar situation with radar in the tower (albeit behind a curtain) but had to re-locate it downstairs.

[atcea.com]

The Kwajalein Control Facility (http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/kwa/0avi_atc.html) says on its website: KWA was the first radar facility to combine tower, approach and center operations, where one controller works all three radar specialties at the same time.

ATC 24/7 (http://atcea.com)

[spekesoftly]

to combine tower, approach and center operations, where one controller works all three radar specialties at the same time.

Fcuk!! Let's hope it doesn't catch on. :uhoh: ;)

[niknak]

but the CAA have issued a requirement to have it relocated

"You What" is talking out of his you know what.

Whilst it is true that there are two radar positions within the radar room at Norwich, they are rarely used mainly 'cos coordination is a lot easier if you are sitting next to someone as opposed to talking via an intercom.

The radar position in the VCR is the same as those downstairs, (fully functional colour radar with SSR) and SRG approved for use day and night both as an ATM and a radar.

No one has issued any request or requirement to move it.

[Cuddles]

Cardiff? :uhoh:

[Turn It Off]

Cardiff Has seperate ACR and VCR positions. The radar is closed at night (check the aip for times) so tower does an approach function also.

If it works with Scratcoh then an approach radar service will be supplied to inbound / outbound aircraft.

[DirtyPierre]

In Oz, the RAAF have some airfields with a Tower and also a radar approach unit. During quiet periods, eg. Sundays, (noone ever attacks on Sundays, just ask the yanks), radar approach is performed by a suitably rated Tower controller from the Tower.

This isn't done at any civilian airfields in Oz.

[av8boy]

Not uncommon at all in the US in "upstairs/downstairs" FAA facilities. Sometimes the TRACON is open, and other times radar is combined at the local control position, depending upon traffic/shift/etc. I always felt the worst part of this arrangement was loss of the BRITE for the close-in guys. When you crank the BRITE out to 60 miles to run approaches, the display provides no help at all for the pattern.

As for Kwaj... When last I saw that operation it was run off of separate displays (enroute and tracon) and the displays themselves didn't inspire me. That two-scope methodolgy is bad enough in a reguar CERAP. To toss tower into the mix is, in my opinion, a bit much, even if it is with the kinds of traffic counts and predictable movements Kwaj enjoys...

I note that, from a mil tower/TRACON controller standpoint (LONG time ago!) lack of atc staffing wouldn't be problematic shoud an attack come to pass on a Sunday. In my experience, those boys and girls in the g-suits are going to depart and go where they go, regardless of your level of cooperation in the tower... ;)

[cdb]

Last time I was at Gloucestershire Airport, they only had the one radar console, and that was in the VCR.

[APP Radar]

Faro - FAO / LPFR
Funchal - FNC / LPMA
Porto - OPO / LPPR

Controllers at these TWR are all rated TWR and APP Radar

Aerodrome position and App Radar Position are side by side.

[Guy D'ageradar]

Geneva - overnight there's a full console at the other side of the tower. However, as there are very strict restrictions on traffic it's a bit of a moot point:hmm:

[matspart3]

Gloucester does, indeed, provide Aerodrome and Approach Radar from the VCR. The ATCO's sit about 4 feet apart at an L-shaped desk. 20" PC monitor in front of the Approach person, and a 14" ATM next to Tower...looks like PC World!!

[msi]

Here in Sweden we have many towers with just one position handling both the Approach and the Tower (and ground).
Most towers have PSR and SSR.

And no I dont find it difficult to switch between looking out the window and to look at the radar.

[M609]

Same in Norway, no problem as long as you don't vector from the TWR position if you have any other tasks/traffic.

But...in Norway (and Sweden, if nothing has changed in the last 3 years), all ATC units have CAS (CTR&TMA) that give IFR traffic the ability to fly from a controlled to a controlled airport without leaving class D/C (Even the ones without pressurized cabins)
We don't have the RIS/RAS in class G to contend with. The fact that there is a requirement to carry a working SSR in CAS allso helps. (No PSR tracks to babysit)

And frankly, the old matra that radar is not helpful when working TWR only, is ridiculous. (Sure, the Mk.1 eyball is still the most important, but everything that increases SA is good in my opinion) :E

(Give me a hint to where you work MSI, I might know you! :p)