Its time to Strike !!!!

[420kts 250ft]

After the usual time stalling tactics by NATS (UK) management, together with poor complicated 21 month pay offers, failure to acknowledge us OJTI's country wide.

The time has come to say we wont tolerate any more being taken for granted. It is a very simple exercise to bring the London TMA to a stand still.

Maybe if we can't get them to acknowledge their employee's properly, Maybe its time to take a page out of the French ATCO's book and stand up and be counted ????

[hooplaa]

Strike is a very strong word, use it more wisely - consider what bigger issues there are to get worked up about.

[Not Long Now]

By bigger issues do you mean the fact that we haven't got enough staff to man the positions we have now, let alone new ones, or that traffic keeps growing at 6%pa, unlike our capacity, or the fact that most of us voluntarily hold more validations than contractually required and get no reward other than more grief?

For once, much against my Gallic loathing tendencies, I'm afraid the Frenchies are probably right. Let's use some of the powder we've been keeping dry for so long, and try and improve things now before something we'll all regret happens.

[get'em to heaven & back]

agree with hoopla, strike is a strong word which is a little too much for this issue. Save it up & use it for PPP- as soon as possible preferably, nicely in time for a general election!!

But the basic point is 100%. NATS want their future staff trained up on the cheap. If they still want to claim to have the "Rolls Royce" of controllers in the world they are going to have invest in their tools- does the phrase "investing in people" spring to anyone's mind? they sure didn't mean financial investment! Disillusioned, alredy overworked ATCOs who struggle to get the right amount of time to themselves are less likely to feel motivated if their efforts are almost completely unrewarded. Not that I would question anyone's commitment to OJTIIng whilst actually carrying out that task but many are less inclined to sit with trainees because of this very fact- they do not feel appreciated in any way. Maybe NATS should invest in a "listening to people" exercise.

[smooth approach]

420/250. Your name seems to reflect a military background. If so, cast your mind back to your past and ask yourself, did OJTI's (or the equivalent) get any special recognition? Strike is a mighty big word and judicious use is the order of the day. What you must accept is that training is an integral part of ATC and that means OJTI's. If you want recognition, striking is not they way of doing things. If you want more money, well you've got no sympathy here.

PS I do not in any way defend the alleged tactics of NATS; only I think you should look at how lucky you may already be and carefully consider how green (or not) the grass is in other vocations.

[Numpo-Nigit]

I concur with the thoughts of the majority above. I have heard that Management have come up with some ideas on recompense for OJTIs. Their apparent favourite is so complicated and open to accusations of abuse that I sincerely hope, if the rumours are indeed true, that they can come up with something a lot better. Their formula for calculating eligibilty would need a few hundred new office staff full-time, whilst making the prospects of successful training more remote than ever.

[Sobelena]

Air traffic personnel all around Europe are faced with mounting pressures of reduced staff, increased traffic, poor conditions etc., etc. If all the respective national unions got their act together a combined European ATC strike would bring the responsible parties to their knees. Yes, NOW is the time to act. But do it together for maximum impact!

[This message has been edited by Sobelena (edited 07 September 2000).]

[Spotter]

It's not surprising that management don't take our pay claims seriously when there are so many who are eager to undermine our position by talking down the possibility of strike action.

I don't think any of us WANT to go out on strike over pay or any other issue. The fact is that over the past 10 years the company has been taking more and more from every one of us, and every time there has been lots of tough talking from the staff, but by the time it comes to the crunch there are too many who are not prepared to back their words with action.

Management have had their way every single time. When was the last time we had a pay rise which genuinely reflected the increased efficiency we have produced? It's been take take take, and now it's time for due recognition.

Otherwise the clear signal to management is "Offer them 2.5%...don't worry they'll bitch about it for a while, but if we drag it out long enough & up it a little they'll play ball."

Well not this time for me matey.

[Data Dad]

Spotter - I'm with you. NATS Chief Executive got something like £35,000 "productivity bonus" (The exact figure is in the NATS annual report. What did we get? about £400 - now who actually delivers the increase in productivity??

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Shazbat]

Industrial action of SOME sort is perhaps what NATS management are goading us in to.......think about it.....they KNOW that NERC is probably going to fail (how the hell they can give an operational date when they know they don't have the staff to run it is beyond me)........

.....SO.......

If we are goaded in to Industrial action then thay can lay the blame on us for NERC not becoming operational on time....which just about sums up how much of a bunch of two-faced aresholes they are !

Don't get me wrong......I am not against industrial action at all.

And a point to smooth approach ref OJTI'ing......obviously you don't work at LATCC !!!!!!!!!!!

[fart]

Although not involved in your particular ATC system, I have had similar experiences in other parts of the world. The same thing applies: You can never get your way by being a gentleman about it - You have to go into the manager's office and make a complete asshole of yourself to be taken notice of.

Stand up and be counted - it is the only way to find out who is your real friends!
Bye
ps: easy to make these comments when you are not affected, but serious, give it a go!

[420kts 250ft]

Smooth Approach...wake up and smell the cheese!! Yes Pay is an issue, but more so is respect and recognition to Nats employees country wide!! We may moan on a Latcc saying we take the brunt of the increase in traffic etc, but when you talk to colleagues at airports, they get as much if not more of a rough deal than we do.

Two recent strike matters come to mind. 1st, BA cabin crew 3 years ago....BA couldn't sustain the loses it incurred and had to back down. The point being, BA went one step too far!!! 2nd Any damn french strike you can think of. the latest on fuel had the government making concessions in 48hrs.

This is not the late 70's early 80's where everything was government owned and loses sustained by the tax payer. This is the year 2000....global economies and BA, BAA etc will not sit back and watch their profits go down the drain all because NATS want someone to blame for NERC.

I'm not militant its just gone a bridge too far.... Shazbat your absolutely spot on, theres no way he/she holds a Latcc validation....

[FatherJack]

I'm afraid I do get rather sick of ATCOs earning well in excess of £50K a year whining on about their low salaries and lack of recognition. Most of them have never held a job in the real world, where keeping one's job for another year is deemed a 'result', and getting a zero pay rise, or cut, is par for the course. I've been there, so I know a good thing when I see it. Most ATCOs don't do enough hours in a week to qualify as part timers - there are many more deserving cases within NATS. How much extra pay do ATC assistants get (remember them?) for mentoring the endless throughput of student ATCOs ? None. Perhaps our head-setted friends should just shut up and get on with their jobs. If they don't, they may well find themselves in a world of hurt in the post - PPP reality check. If my comments have offended anyone, I really don't care !

[Bright-Ling]

Forgive you Father - for YOU have sinned!

Well, thanks for those mature, constructive and well thought out comments.

From your tone I think that you are an assistant. If so, may I reassure all that this is not the norm for ATSA's. Ours are very intelligent people.

As for PPP, unfortunately, the ATSA's are undoubtedly (and unfortunately) the MOST vulnerable bunch of people in the company.

Yes, I am somewhat biased as I wear a headset. But, to work under extreme pressure in some of the busiest airspace in the world deserves CONSIDERABLY more than £50k. To fill you in on your OBVIOUS lack of ATC/avaition knowledge, if a controller has a serious 'whoops' they may find themself in court under a manslaughter charge. Simple as that.

I hope that you stay out of your box and use both brain cells to come up with an intelligent reply.

Finally, perhaps you should be renamed MURPHY'S....as you are obviously BITTER.

[LoLevel]

Judging by the extensive 1 posts of Father Jack, I don't think his contribution will be seen again, or ignored again.

Yes. Get tough. If you have a union use it.

I wish the Australian's would see that the golden opportunity of fixing the ass-chewed system that now exists with all its corporatisation/flip-flop management/performance bonus (!) for (mis)managers etc. is now! Olympic games one week away and ATC's are rolling over to have their tummys tickled.....

post olympics....Wham...expect it right up the ass! Too late...thanks for all your hard wrok at making it work, now I need MY performance bonus so off with all your heads!



------------------
[email protected]
"The views expressed here are a personal rant and rave and in no way reflect the views of my employer/s "

[hooplaa]

MY MY, Father Jack - get thee behind me satan.

1 - read the pay structure and you may be suprised to see that not all of us 'wingers' are earning that magical £50k.

2 - those that do hit this figure should be getting more in my lowly ATCO3 opinion.

3 - you may be suprised to find that we do work more than part timers. I am not going to rant on too much about those poor ATSAs in some centres that have had to wave bye bye to early goes - both ATSAs & ATCOs in the real world of Airports have commercial constraints which do play a part in contracts have been doing theirs for a long time.

4 - if you want OJTI pay for training then make like the ATCOs, JOIN YOUR UNION and get them on the case - or as is usual hang onto our shirt tails after IPMS has fought the case instead

5 - If you're that bitter and twisted over the fact that some people in life get more money than you then may I suggest you return to the cot and accept that sometimes life 'just ain't fair' and start all over again
:mad:

[FatherJack]

Struck some nerves, didn't I ? Could it be that those ATCOs employed by NATS (a monopoly provider of En-route services) are worried that their market value may drop when privatisation, and shortly thereafter competition,arrives ? I have nothing against ATCOs earning good money - bloody good luck to you. I just wish you'd realise that there are a lot of people who work rather harder, under equal pressure, for longer hours, for far less reward and with little job security. When was the last time you met an ATCO employed on a 12 month contract ?

[Bright-Ling]

Father.....

....so, ARE you an ATSA or not?? Do tell.

By the way - I am NOT an ATCO 2, so do not earn even £30k!! Believe it or not, some of us have worked in the 'real' world and know what you mean, but sometimes life is just ****.

If you want to go down to the silly road of "Salaries worth", then there are many I could argue the same with as an ATCO.

What about Bankers, who get bonuses in excess of £50k for doing well in playing with money! No real risk there.

I feel sorry for you, as you are obviously one of the many people who have a chip on their shoulder about something. For the sake of your own mental health I suggest you just get on with life, as hoopla rightly says.

Thanks for 'endorsing' our salaries. Yes, we do realise that a lot of people work harder under equal pressure for longer hours with less reward and job security (Junior Doctor's comes to mind) but as much as I sympathise that is not our fault!

With regard to NATS' monopoly on En-Croute services being worried that the market value may drop post PPP - well, you have lost it pal.

Those of us at airports are more threatened and vulnerable.

Finally, 'tis good to see that you have sobered up a bit since your last post!

Played 2, lost 2 thus far! (Both own goals!)

[420kts 250ft]

FatherJack, did you fail your cadetship? Sorry to hear that !!!!

Remember how long it takes to get one of us trained and invested in? Not exactly ideal for a 12 month contract hey?

BACK TO THE POINT.....Minimum 6% traffic increase year on year, Poxy 21 month pay offer, complete insult to OJTI recognition, Average IPMS pay settlement 4.5%. Non-state airports overtaking the ATCO3's even more, and where are we ???? Still waiting for management to make another insulting gesture to our existence within ATC !!!!

IPMS reps out there - It really is time to hit below the belt, I beleive the overwhelming majority would come out tomorrow!

[Shazbat]

Father Jack......it's obvious to me - and a lot of others - that you have an axe to grind when it comes to ATCOs. There is no other job as stressful as this....although some may be blase about it, just look at the drawn faces of controllers when relieved after a balls-out session on a busy sector.

Are you an assistant (most of us were).....or perhaps a failed ATCO ?

I read, and will treat, your comments with the utter contempt they deserve.

[Spotter]

Father Jack: Working with you must be a real barrel of laughs.

Part time??? we even come in on days off to ensure that we don't get 2 extra rest days we aren't entitled to.

Overpaid??? my brother in law who is a plumber earns more than me. I don't even gross £30k. In fact if you are at the top of the ATSA2 scale or above you will be making more yourself.

Underworked??? I was an ATSA until quite recently. Yes I worked hard. I don't say I work any harder in a physical sense now, but mentally it is far more intense. I get about 50% of the EG's I did as an ATSA. I didn't fall asleep in the afternoon after morning shifts when I was an ATSA.

I'm not typing this to justify myself to you Father Jack, you apparently work in ATC so you should know better. This is just in case anyone else might read your post & think has any relevance.

[PPRuNe Radar]

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

Looks like it's worked !! ;)


------------------
PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[smooth approach]

420/250. You've emade some pretty large assumptions. I've been in the industry for over 15 years and, yes, I have held LATCC validations. My point is this: NATS may be a commercial enterprise and I cetaintly disagree with the privatisation of ATS. What I don't agree with is us holding the country to ransom as we should look upon ourselves as a public service. Again, I think we must ask ourselves how green is the grass in other companies/industries?

[Shazbat]

So....still wet behind the ears then smooth approach ????? AND management material to boot !!

Hmmmmmmm......MY tongue is quite pink......what colour is yours ?

And don't come the "un-professional" bit with me either.........it's NATS management who are being unprofessional.....they even lie to themselves. Just look at the mess Uncle Bill got himself in to !!

[smooth approach]

Shazbat - mine's pink too; it just may be forked.

Spotter - Go and work with your brother-in-law.

[420kts 250ft]

Smooth approach.... Is your initials B.S ? otherwise how do you sleep at night? I actually feel quite sorry for you as Management see you coming a mile off.

Yes I do have a mil background (12 years) and Civil (10 years) so Ive seen both colours of the grass, BUT if you hold a valid license in the TMA this year and don't think the increase in this summers traffic, the slivering and sliding around by management in pay negiotiations, warrants some form of response then your one of the following :-

1) ATCO 1 come bordering on a bigger and better management post.
2) B.S himself.
3) A spineless individual.

FOR GODS SAKE ITS SEPTEMBER HAS NOBODY NOTICED...When did the pay talks start???

[Numpo-Nigit]

The mud-slinging seems to have got us rather off-topic. Back in the world of pay negotiations, there was a union/management meeting yesterday (Friday) morning, with no progress. There is another scheduled for next Friday. Assuming no miraculous breakthrough, I believe that the following week is the deadline by which management HAVE to make their FINAL offer. If that, whatever it is, is deemed unacceptable by the negotiating team, then we can expect a dispute to be filed - and a ballot for industrial action. I suspect that a strike will not be an option, at least initially, as a training ban will hit NATS hard (no ECT, OCT, TVC, EVC, etc) but, if anything, our customers will notice an improvement in service delivery (less of us will be away from the Ops Room). We live in interesting times.

[Shazbat]

Wotchas Numpo !

yes, a training ban.......it would hit NATS rather hard, and be a nice rest for us poor sods who have to live with OJTIing day after day after day. (and a nice rest for the poor trainees, who have my utmost sympathy !)

Consider further......a training ban on ECT ? Hmmmmmmm, but ECT is a legal requirement.....get out of THAT one NATS !

Oh dear, I have missed one vital point here......d i s p e n s a t i o n !!! But surely not ?

[Father Jack]

BEFORE YOU ALL START GETTING READY TO SEND ABUSIVE REPLIES TO THIS POST...

I am a tad annoyed to see that someone has hi-"Jack"ed my handle, and used it to stoke up this thread.

So remember the Father Jack with a gap is a sane , (reasonably) well balanced individual, interested in sensible coherent debate, as for the other guy...........

[This message has been edited by Father Jack (edited 10 September 2000).]

[Bright-Ling]

Will the REAL Father Jack please identify themselves!!!!...........

Anyway, good to hear that you are not from the press!

Interesting thing this trg ban.... I am not a miltant worker but a trg ban will, in the long term, affect only those who are fully valid.

Imagine the difficulties getting leave, coourses etc when there is no-one in the pipeline to replace you. Don't get me wrong, I think that ATCO's have never deserved to strike more in their history - but let us not "Cut off our nose, to spite our face" here.

As my learned friend said, 'Interesting times!'

Sock it too 'em.

[Not Long Now]

Bright-ling, "Imagine the difficulties getting leave, coourses etc when there is no-one in the pipeline to replace you".....
well not much imagination required. Just ask most people at LATCC.

[cossack]

What was the result of the training ban ballot?
600+ in favour
70 odd against
A bit short sighted I think!
Think about your future not just your pocket now. There are other ways of getting our point across without a training ban or all out strike. We will lose support from the public if we go on strike. We can just slow everything down in the interests of safety due to a shortage of staff (cough, cough, cough)...

[OrsonCart]

I my humble opinion, just a ballot of the membership to consider taking industrial action would send the signals needed.

You do not have to strike to cause impact. Should the airlines face delays or have to cancel flights, the pressure on NATS to reslove the issue would be massive.

See what management have to offer, then if you do not like it, consider what you have to gain by considering further action and what they may do to you in retaliation.

[Bright-Ling]

Not long....

....yep, I'm sure that you are right. I'm just saying that (as someone who voted 'oui' to strike action!) it may not be the best long term plan.

John Wayne said that 'Opinion's are like a**holes - everyone's got one!' - And that is my opinion.

Remember, we are all on the same side here!!!!

[420kts 250ft]

I really do think that striking for, say Monday 7-10am and 4-7pm or even daily at those times would be enough for the airlines to pressurise NATS into getting real with their negiotiations.

They really do think that this year they will say ....."proxy percentage, final offer" and we'll say "oh if thats all we're gonna get, then we may as well say yes!"

I SAY...NO MORE FOLKS, I don't want to do this but I'm sick of being taken advantage of by nerds who make silly estimations in bringing multi-million pound centres online and that lie through their teeth to the press about Overloads and controller work loads.

Every time I see B.S on the T.v denying every thing I cringe (mind you I cringe at the woollybacks that are supposed to represent the anonymous controller being stressed).... B.S would deny that a flight departed heathrow today if he could get away with it.

Stand and be counted ......

[ATC Watcher]

A French colleague from Aix-en Provence ACC is following ( like many others )this thread with interest, and he asked me to post the following :
"Welcome to Europe (finally). We are glad to see that you are getting the same problems as we have. Strike is not a dirty word, but talking about it never did much. If you want to get your management attention you need to do a bit more that talking anonimously among yourselves.Privatisation will only benefit your management . Not controllers. .Despite our natural anti english feelings, we wish you good luck in your entreprise and your future. "

[Bright-Ling]

420....

...that would certainly work!

Or, why not say now that we will strike over the Xmas period - and give set days (i.e. Every Saturday in December?)

I'm sure this would cause major disruption with the aircraft being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but this might keep the public and the airlines on our side if we give enough notice.

Either way, let's hope that the union and management sort it out.

[Spotter]

Let's not try and kid ourselves that the public & airlines are going to be on our side.

The airlines will just make lots of noise at whichever side they think is the weakest as soon as they start losing money due to disruption.

The public will make noises at whoever the media portray as the bad guys.

This idea that we have to have popular support for industrial action is a red herring. Strikes are rarely popular. It's a tough world & getting tougher we have to stand up for ourselves. No-one else will & we shouldn't expect them to either.

Until we know what the latest offer is going to be we can't be sure, but I have a horrible feeling that playing the jolly decent British game is getting us nowhere, just like previous years.

[Flybywyre]

Bright-Ling...................

I am interested to know why you beleive that you should be earning "CONSIDERABLY more than 50K" ? Is this just pure greed or do you have a considered and rational argument to put forward in respect to your claim ?
If you do have one I would be very interested to hear it, along with the salary that you think you should be paid. But do spare us any condescension regarding manslaughter charges etc, just the facts please.

Regards
FBW

[squawk 6789]

Every year since i joined the CAA i've heard union reps saying "this is the year to take them on"! Well guys, this time it really is! With PPP potentially round the corner, NATS & the Government want the least possible hassle (witness the proposed 21 month pay deal) and interest from any section of the media coz when the media are making noises, they're in our favour. Ok so a strike p*ss*s the public off but as spotter says, strikes are rarely popular.
Rattle those sabres boys, and rattle them hard.

(Personally i'm in favour of striking on every morning shift!)

[Avman]

FBW, I always reckoned that a Captain is responsible for his aircraft, crew and pax.
An ATCO is responsible for X number of Captains, crews and pax per shift. Consequently ATCOs' salaries should be well above those of airline pilots!!! :)

Tin hat on - dives for bunker.

[Bright-Ling]

FlybyWire....

....First of all I didn't say that I should be earning CONSIDERABLY more than £50k. If you read on you will learn that I am yet to earn more than £30k!!!! You will also read that I don't work in the LTMA.

I wouldn't say that it is pure greed, only a feeling of worth.

Secondly, the issue of a potential manslaughter charge was not meant to be condescending, but it is actually a fact as you well know.

As you claim to live in Maidenhead I suggest that you are an ATCO 2 or higher. Perhaps you would like to give me your view on what on ATCO is worth in terms of salary.

One things for certain, I can't afford to live in Maidenhead!!!!!!!!

[Flybywyre]

Avman.......................

Thanks for the reply and the valid point that you make.
I still await Bright-Ling's response to the specific questions I have asked of him.

As a matter of interest an ACTO 1's pay is well above some captains pay and on a par with a lot of others, but there is no point in going down that road as I am sure we can all give examples to prove whatever point we are trying to make. I am not trying to make any point and I don't have a problem with ATCO's wanting to earn more ( or anybody else come to that ). I'd just like Bright-Ling to explain himself.

Regards
FBW

[Shazbat]

Hmmmmmm.......VERY interestin FBW. You mention ATCOs I for some reason ?? Obviously you don't work at LATCC, where all the hard work is done by the II's (mostly).....and as for the ATCOs salary, they earn EVERY penny and more !!

There is no point in comparing ATCOs' and Pilots' salaries......it's a completely different job AND the Captain IS ultimately responsible for his aircraft and those aboard.

However, you might like to compare UK ATCO salaries with those of, say, Spain.......or Eurocontrol !

[Flybywyre]

Bright-ling.............................

I see that you have now edited your original post in order to put together a feeble response without answering the questions I put to you, therefore I will not be replying to anything else you have to say on this thread.
PS I see you also have a chip on your shoulder about not being able to live in Maidenhead.

Shazbat.......................
1) I'm not interested in comparing anybody's salaries, but you and Bright-ling obviously are.
2) Wrong again...I do work at LATCC.

Regards
FBW

[Bright-Ling]

Flybyvalium.....you are a deranged fool!!!!

Which post has been edited by me here!????
Maybe I am just being really stooooopid but do you think that I have erased the editing time-stamp or something??

NONE OF MY POSTS SHOW AS BEING EDITED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, I thought that I did answer YOUR questions. You haven't actually commented on what your point is here.

I don't even want to live in Maidenhead!! I live a long, long way from the fair town! 'Twas a little joke (you'll understand if you ever get a sense of humour)

I am now seeing a lot of resemblance to you and FatherJack (no space!) Are you the same dodo!!!???!!!

Finally, please, please, please keep replying - as you are making yourself look a complete ****!!! (Rhymes with 'cat' or 'punt' - you be the judge!!)

All so very entertaining!!!!!!!!

[420kts 250ft]

FBW......

Your evidently management, I detect this for two reasons:

1) Your trying to change the subject from "time to strike".
2) You talk complete Bo**ocks for the sake of it.

If you do work at Latcc are you that one individual I see daily pushing papers and wondering why your colleagues are getting very disgruntled when all it is for god's sake is increased traffic. (Oooops my sarcasm's creeping back in) Why, we are all human aren't we? We can cope can't we? Nothing will ever go wrong will it? Well, its not ideal but we'll soldier on and make do won't we?

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE the real ATCO's amongst you, don't just leave your grumbles here, let your IPMS rep know that this year they are not going to walk all over us!!!

[Shazbat]

FBW you seem to be a complete prat......if you took time to read, and not make assumptions, then you would see that I do NOT compare the aforesaid jobs.

So you work at LATCC eh......one of the "FB"s no doubt that just clog up the car park during weekdays ? Probably a manager by your supercilous attitude !!

[Shazbat]

Don't worry 420/250........my rep has red ears !!

[Big Nose1]

So FBW what is your job at LATCC, I am a radar controller, if you are interested.
Tell us what your important function at LATCC is and we will answer your questions. I for one will not debate with you unless you tell me your function.

[Davey Clark]

Shazbat,

You are so astute.........

"There is no point in comparing ATCO's and Pilot's salaries........it IS a completely different job AND the Controller IS ultimately responsible for his traffic"......... Or in your words, the controller IS responsible for around 42-ish captains and 42-ish passenger loads, for each hour, on each sector, on each day.

I totally agree with you - ATCOs should be paid around 42 times a captains salary.

Good Post Shazbat, keep it up!!

[Applycarbheat]

Shazbat

FBW might seem like a complete prat, as opposed to you who obviously IS a complete prat. (judging by your posts)

FBW

If I was you I'd forget getting involved any further, when posters start getting rude and personal it's a sure sign that they have lost the battle. A few of the posters are obviously sad and confused individuals.

[Flybywyre]

Big nose 1.......................

No, I am not interested in what you do.
Have you got anything intelligent to post?

Regards
FBW

PS You'll all be disappointed to learn that I am leaving this thread due to the poor quality of post (apart from mine).
Missing you all already.

[Shazbat]

Well Applycarbheat...thank you very much indeed for your input. Such a shame that we can't meet !!

Good riddance by the way FBW....same applies to you !

Now, back to the subject which I think has got a little lost........industrial action yes - but let's not give NATS an opportunity to hoist the "NERC Has Failed" headline upon us ! Choose the action wisely...you can be sure though that some cretins like Applycarbheat and FBW will do their damndest to achieve complete brown tongue status if there is any industrial action.

[Monty Burns]

Watch them squabble, Smithers. Do you see?

Yeeessss, as long as there's no will to respect each other and debate intelligently, I shall walk all over them!

[Applycarbheat]

Shazbat................

But we do !!

FBW
Take a look at shagbats other postings and you will see what an ill informed, confused and generally sad person they are.

[Mr Chips]

I can believe how many different jobs FBW is meant to have!!!
Yes FBW is at LATCC, no, not management or an FB.

He is actually a sound bloke.

Tee hee.

So, about strike action.....

[Bright-Ling]

Mr Chips, sir...

Does FBW work in the trg section then???

By the way FBW - you said that you weren't going to reply yesterday - and you did today!

Promise me you've *u**ed off good and proper this time!!!!!!!

[420kts 250ft]

HOLD ON FOLKS......halt the slagging match.

I want to get back to the issue !!!! Who's gonna vote in favour of Strike action if it is put to the vote, because quite evidently NATS management are not going to make a better off.

Who is prepared to sacrifice a day or two a week to show this company that we are not going to be walked all over this year?

Who's prepared to cross picket lines if we do go to industrial action? Is everybody forgetting how fast the media are to highlight our problems, NERC, the Airprox's...theres a lot more support for us out there than you think !!!

[Not Long Now]

Not sure how accurate this may be, so possibly pinch of salt time, but then again, this is NATS management we're on about...
Heard rumours from colleagues of offer to OJTI's of £450 per year! OOOOOHHHHH the generosity, the recognition, the obvious empathy with our feelings.
Now let me just test my maths...let's assume we're all in the 40% tax game (pardon me those who aren't, no offence intended honestly, too much muck-slinging going on in this thread already), so just doing the income tax bit, that leaves £270pa, or £22.50pcm, or for 3 cycles pcm, that's £1.25 per day!
Any guesses where you think that can be stuck?

[Bright-Ling]

420 - good point....sorry!!!

Just having to deal with people like that..........anyway:

That is the issue - I hope that a good proportion follow the union stance if that fateful decision is made.

I know that over 90% at our unit will be striking.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Just to echo some of the more sensible comments here. If anyone wishes to get personal and start name calling then they are free to start their own Bulletin Board and do it there.

Use your debating skills to counter opposing views instead of resorting to schoolyard banter. If you can't, then I'll delete any offending post in the future. Clear enough ??

------------------
PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[250 kts]

I believe the original offer for OJTIs was only £200 per annum and that this was subsequently raised towards £1000pa.
This so called management really do not have a clue about the staff feeling at present.
Time to go to the gate methinks.

[Applycarbheat]

Dim-ling..................

I also know FBW and can assure you of his credentials and professionalism, UNLIKE YOURS!
So why don't you do everybody a favour and post somewhere else instead of lowering the standard of this BB down to your level.

GROW UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bright-Ling]

ApplyBrainCell!!!!

Thankyou for that. As you know FBW so well, would like you like to let me and the rest of the world know just what it is he does as a profession???

Also, I find it hilarious that we have seen so many new names registered here within the last few days!

All seems like FBW/FatherJack/yourself all know each other well and speak up for each other.

Funny that!

Anyway, if you could answer the questions I would be hugely appreciative.

Thankyou.

[granny smith]

I think we're losing the point of this very interesting thread. Like Radar says cut out the slagging as it only detracts from the arguement and makes us look unprofessional. Remember there are lots of people watching this thread who do not post (media, management, joe public, MI5 etc) so keep focussed on the REAL issue.

Anyway, back to the arguement....

[420kts 250ft]

TO WHOEVER !!!!

Please stop the slagging match, no more jibs at each other after my post or I'll request a clear out of this thread.

There is some very serious points to address, as we speak fuel is running out and most of us are in support of what its trying to achieve.

I don't think the general public will have as much support for us if we start striking but they do believe in what we have to say about conditions, staffing, nerc etc as projected by IPMS in the press.

The media also are regularly having a pop at NATS management for the "millenium dome II - NERC" fiasco.

Suggestions for how we can drive a better bargain or what sort of action would get the fastest results....PLEASE

[OrsonCart]

If we all reject the offer of the OJTI payment and stop this form of training, what effect would this actually have on NATS nationwide?

[halo]

Yes, please do stop the slanging match! After all, we are supposed to be on the same team. And besides, it makes those of us who genuinely work hard and try to be professional look stupid and ignorant, which I'm sure you agree is something that we can do without!!

[Lon More]

Any managers out there reading this must be laughing their socks off at the total lack of cohesion expressed in this thread.

As someone who was involved in a similar situation some years ago - and again today - may I make a suggestion.

Forget the strike, for the moment, start with a ballot thensometing small; e.g. an overtime ban; this to start at a pre-notified time if no satisfactory agreement reached.If the answer is "No" go for something bigger to start a week or a later . If this has no effect, then introduce a training ban, and if this has no effect THEN go for the strike.

The timetable, avoiding school holiday eriods like the plague - we are conciencious professionals - should be made known to management, and the public (full page ads. in the newspapers?) from the very beginning..

The gradual increase in pressure on management should present yourselves as the voice of reason and them as a bunch of merchant bankers.

But first you need solidarity so let's stop the slanging match

------------------
Lon More,just an ATCO

[Mr Chips]

Is there anything that can be done in terms of "working to rule"?
Insist on all sectors split (radar and wings, impose flow restrictiuons etc...

Just asking...

[U B Nadd]

So what if NATS does try to blame the failure of NERC on ATCOs. Who would care?
The public are not the dimwits we all take them for.

[intentionally blank]

My four penneth (for what it is worth).

Public support does not matter. We have public support for NERC but in reality that support is limited to the (relative) few who read the broadsheets.

And f*ck avoiding school holidays. If we want to achieve something then ignore the press and what ever they think wether for or against. Strike nationwide for one day in the middle of a holiday season. Why not threaten it for Christmas Eve?

That would get their attention (NATS management and the government) and we probably wouldn't even have to go through with it. If we did...well a lot of people wouldn't see their families this Christmas and that should focus their minds. And those people would include aircrew and senior business people. Don't forget that Christmas flights are booked up months in advance.

I'm a bit sick of having the piss taken out of me by Nats management. Incidentally how many more of them are going to jump ship to the companies who are bidding for us?

Making a slight lie out of the "I will not personally benefit finacially out of this" claim they all made when they helped to sell the idea to the government.

[Father Jack]

PLEASE NOTE THIS IS THE SANE FATHER JACK WITH THE GAP IN HIS NAME (not between his ears)

I haven't been to this thread for a couple of days, and really haven't missed much apart from some dissappointing slagging.

Some points on striking:
What are we striking for?
If it's for money, absolutely forget it. I'm not saying we're not worth it, I am just sure that we wouldn't ever succeed. This government is very good at media manipulation, just look at the last few days. No comment for days, then all the guns out demonising these "illegitimate protesters holding the country to ransom in an undemocratic manner", "putting patients at risk", "threatening and intimidating drivers." Whatever your views on the protests, most people support the cause of lower fuel duties, but look at the change of media coverage over the last few days and the subsequent collapse of the protests.
Same scenario of ATCOs going on strike: The Sun etc. get a leaked copy of "typical ATCO wages" which happens to be that of top of scale LATCC ATCO 1, and we are similarly demonised. We try to point out the plight of T & D scale ATCOs propping up airports, but the damage has been done.
Then, on the days we do go to work, BBC and Sky News set up a camera at Porters Way and comment on the "poor ATCOs coming to work in their BMWs, AUDIs etc..." Do it yourself some day, and think about how it looks on the TV the day after we've done a walk out.
Again, I'm not saying that I have a problem with how much we are paid or how we spend it, just don't be naive about how these things are won or lost.
What are we striking for? Part 2
Training. I do believe that mgmt do not appreciate the efforts that we all put into training, and how strongly we feel that we are not being recognised for it.
This is a more worthy cause and in my view justifiable to all concerned. Just remember that we shouldn't penalise trainees, they are union members too. (I hope)

Two final points (`cos this is getting long and rambling)
1) Solidarity please boys and girls
2) Don't just tell your IPMS rep your feelings. Go and tell your boss, B.S. or R. McN. next time they visit the ops room. If IPMS reps in negotiations tell mgmt side that feelings are strong, it is wasted unless mgmt side hear it from their own sources also.

[420kts 250ft]

Father J.....

We hail you oh wise one, there was actually some quite good points you made there.

When action is taken, it has to be for a myriad of reasons, and that includes pay. I've heard of cases in Airports Dept where the senior ATCO on late/night duties have been valid T&D's !! The Average IPMS payrise has been 4.5%, the average public sector payrise has been 3.75%, the average private sector payrise was 5.65% !! and where do we fit in ??? Exactly !!

But your right, into the bargain has to come OJTI recognition, there is a lot of us in the company who do a lot of "goodwill" duties etc

One last thing, if we do strike, ATCO 2's, leave your Audi TT's at home !!! ATCO 1's, you can still bring your Toyota corolla's....

[250 kts]

:mad: :mad: NATS have offered a max of 2.25% for the OJTI claim. This really can only be seen as an insult to the people who come into work and find themselves training day after day. The next pay meeting has been cancelled as a result. Nats need the OJTIs more in the coming few months for NERC than ever before, yet seem hellbent on causing further dissatisfaction amongst the staff.
Come on IPMS ,let's have the ballot and have a significant rejection of this offer and a strong membership COUNTRYWIDE. This employer and any future one now has to realise that ATCOs have had enough of being s**t on.
Back to the original thread -- TIME TO STRIKE!!

[28right]

The 2.25% on offer is not the FINAL offer on OJTI. The pay meeting scheduled for Tuesday HAS NOT been cancelled. Management have stated that at Tuesday's meeting, they will table an increased formal offer on OJTI as part of the 2000 NATS central pay offer to ALL staff. The negotiations processes are not yet exhausted. These are the facts.

[250 kts]

Just passing on the details from the IPMS e-mail:-

"The 17th meeting in the 2000 pay round took place today to discuss ATCO OJTI pay.
We made it clear to NATS once again that we are seeking substantial additional rewards for carrying out OJTI and associated training tasks.
NATS has indicated that any additional reward would have to be linked to improvements in the number of training hours achieved. In some cases they are seeking substantial increases.
NATS has offered an annual allowance worth a maximum of 2.25% of basic salary. This followed a series of other unsatisfactory offers.
The IPMS negotiators have indicated to NATS that this is still totally unacceptable. It falls short of our ambitions and we will recommend that the ATCOs Branch Executive rejects the offer.
A pay meeting was scheduled for the 19th September. We have decided that there is little point in attending until the OJTI issue is settled."

[halo]

Well I've been valid for 18 months on the T&D scale and I've been the only controller in the tower on a night shift. There have been other controllers around, but they are normally asleep. So I make decisions without reference to anybody else....... Me, a lowly T&D ATCO making decisions *laughs*. Ha, whatever next?? Adding tea making duties to the list of accolades?? *lol*

[Applycarbheat]

Father Jack....................

What a breath of fresh air to read your practical and common sense approach to the problem.
Contrast that with 420/250 (and others)and it is quite clear we have a problem. That problem being that we will never get taken seriously if the above mentioned ever get into the REAL debating arena.
Given their crude and badly written posts most of us just sigh and move on, however any management reading these posts are instantly aware of what a load of rubbish is written here and are able to respond accordingly.
FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED!!

[squawk 6789]

forewarned may be forearmed- but it does no harm if management know the troops are getting restless and are not prepared to sit idly back and accept whatever scraps are tossed down.
yes, industrial action is a difficult road to go down but for those who oppose it, can we hear an alternative- i'm prepared to listen to anything half-viable that furthers our cause?

[ATCO Two]

Hi halo,


Mine's white, no sugar! And keep your greasy mitts off Mel!

[250 kts]

Well 28Right you're obviously a member of the wonderful management we have at the moment or else how else would you have known that this was not the final offer?
What is the point of not coming up with the final offer at a prearranged meeting but delaying another 5 days which just adds to the disquiet amongst the staff. After all this was the SEVENTEENTH pay meeting this year.
You as managers should be thoroughly ashamed at the way you are treating staff at present-or maybe you should let us know who you are , visit LATCC, and just for once do what you get paid large bonuses to do-listen to what the ATCOs are saying.

[FatherJack]

Greetings all. Been away for a while, but obviously not missed much. Good to see you all slagging each other off (and me). Keep it up ! It's just like being in the LATCC coffee lounge, only at home ! So, to today's question : how does NATS/IPMS/anyone else justify the large number of non-operational ATCOs at LATCC who contribute NOTHING to the NATS core business ? I could name 3 (but I won't) non-operational ATCOs in my acquaintance, all of whom are on the top of the ATCO2 pay scale, none of whom attend LATCC more than 3 months of the year in total. These three jokers are costing NATS something like £250,000 a year in salaries & NI/Pension contributions. Or to put it another way, 250 £1000 bungs for OJTIs, bless 'em. I could easily name another 3 like them. Is this fair ? Roll on PPP !

[250 kts]

You're right father-totally indefensible.But isn't that just another eg of crap management allowing it to happen?
Not knowing the individual cases makes it difficult to comment but no reason why this should be allowed to continue-posting to CATC or feed at NERC. But why do we need PPP to resolve this situation-you're obviously well up to speed with management gobbledygook,so go and raise it with your boss(assuming you've got one).
If PPP does come along, do we really need 10 watch managers??-who it could be argued also add b****r all to the " core business "
Here's my question of the day to you:What is your function at LATCC and what do you consider to be reasonabe recompense for the OJTI's ?

[420kts 250ft]

Well, I'm very sad to say that there is too much NATS Management on this thread trying to Pooh-pooh us REAL ATCO's views.

ApplyCarb... & FatherJack, sometimes you make some valid points but then you ruin it by taking a blatant swipe at fellows workers.
What you forget is that when it comes to the vote, and if you actually listen to whats been said in the Latcc coffee lounge is that we all have a vote, and this year, unless offers accross the board are increased .....the vote will be a VERY LARGE NO !!

Yes thats right, the real ATCO's are the ones who are most disgruntled. The ATCO's like me who are countlessly training T&D's (god help them), getting less time to use the privilege of my own validations. Then there's the Valid T&D's, who wants to be a valid T&D at Heathrow getting paid peanuts to be under that amount of pressure?

Its nationwide gents, the vote will be no, whether you like it or not. Chatting to someone in airports yesterday, her unit is getting more and more dissillusioned by its management and the propaganda its using to try and weaken ATCO's on PPP and the Pay talks.

Lets be realistic gents, the Government didn't take the truckers/farmers seriously and look how much chao's they caused. Management are not taking us seriously either therefore its time when these talks can go no further.....One Strike a week to hit the business sector... ie 7-9am or 4-7pm.
It can work and we can keep it up until the pressure from the airlines wakes up this lot at the top.

[Father Jack]

FatherJack et al,
solidarity didn't obviously last as far as the next page of this thread.
Without knowing the individual cases that you speak of its difficult to comment, but I find it hard to believe that these people add "NOTHING" to the business.
Talk to some of our airfield colleagues and find out how lack of training/ops support is strangling many units who expect ATCOs to carry out the brunt of these necessary tasks in their own time.
I expect that there may be imbalances but here isn't the place to air such grievances, if you feel so strongly, go and ask your GM to justify it, because he carries the can, and tell him if you're not happy with his justification you'll have to speak to someone above.
Can't see you doing it somehow.....

[This message has been edited by Father Jack (edited 15 September 2000).]

[160to4DME]

Oh dear. I'm getting a little tired of all the infighting on this thread; haven't we got enough to battle without fighting each other?
I am also dismayed that it does seem that members from NATS management are posting on here; whilst anonymity is perfect for a professional forum like this, for management to use it to their own advantage behind the screen of anonymity is cowardice management at its mischievous worst.

I, like everyone on the unit, take pride in my work. Few people outside of the profession (including even some of our driving colleagues in the sky) have the faintest appreciation or understanding of the job and the pressures. This, in my opinion, is where ATCOs as a collective body need to redress the situation. Until then, any disruption or industrial action will have to fight against the media hype and public perception that we are underworked and overpaid. I can see the headline in The Sun " 'Controllers on £50,000 who striked ruined my holiday' says recently made redundant father of 8..." blah blah blah.

Personally, and I'll take cover from the flack for this, I'd honestly be prepared to work for the money I'm on now if only the working conditions could be improved. <<I can here gasps of disbelief already>>
Here's an example why..........

Yesterday I arrived for an 0700 start.
I had to leave home at 0530 so I could be as economical as possible on fuel. We'd been told by the Unit Manager that anyone failing to turn up for work would have leave deducted.
I plug into a sector straight away. Normal flow has been placed on the sector. I am then told that 2 people have gone sick and that the sector can't be split off, as is the normal process on the morning. As the strip bay becomes full to overflowing, I ask for an extra set of eyes to watch the sector; no-one is available.
More flow restrictions are placed on the sector, which is no bloody good for me, as it'll take atleast an hour for it to take effect.
Many many crossed transmissions, and I miss quite a few calls. The situation isn't helped by some pillock who is getting a stepped climb under other traffic; he keeps calling "passing FL..." or "Approaching FL, requesting higher". I'd really like to throttle this guy !
Traffic is now holding up to the top of the stack in my sector when the radar goes blank. Ten heart-stopping seconds later, it's back to normal.
We are so short of staff, all ATCO 1s are also plugged in on sectors.
After 90 minutes my relief arrives, but I have to go straight to another sector for another 30 minutes before I am CRATCOHd and must have a 30 minute break.
After my break I find I am training someone for another 90 minutes, and I continue training for the rest of the shift.
I went home mentally and physically exhausted.

So, why did I say I'm not necessarily
looking for a golden pay rise ??

Would a £50,000 salary have made my shift any better yesterday? Not at all, and I was so knackered when I got home, I would have been too tired to go out and spend any of that lovely lolly anyway.

And things are going to get far worse before they get better; we have already been told that leave will be restricted to ONE person at a time in the New Year whilst we take on another sector, with no opportunity to carry over excess leave into the next leave year.

If these are the Golden days pre-PPP, I genuinely dread what the future holds.

So come on chaps, lets cut out the internal bickering and get our act together.

[250 kts]

Well 160to4, sounds ikle another normal day at LATCC. Assuming you're in TC by your ref to the stack, why couldn't the deps be stopped. Then when management moan you are fully justified in your actions.
Also if you were in a situation where you needed help but none was available, then you're duty bound to go into writing. This is the ONLY chance to try to stop a reoccurrance.
It's absolutely no good just moaning in this forum. Whilst problems like this remain within the 4 walls of LATCC,then nothing will get done.
If you were so overloaded that you couldn't have handled an emergency--WRITE A 1261. Absolutely no one can complain.

[Mr Chips]

There has been an awful lot of personal abuse on this thread, which is a shame. Others are reading and watching us.

Father jack referred to top of the scale ATCOs not contributing...yep, I think I know two of the three.

As I said before - is there anything we can do to "work to rule"?

[160to4DME]

250kts

I knew there was something I forgot to put in my original post !

An overload 1261 did go in, and I've just filled out a CHIRP form.

It's not LATCC either...I'm at that regional backwater oop north ;)

But I agree entirely with your comment that nothing will be achieved by only moaning on here. :)

[420kts 250ft]

160-4...... I like your point, and the overload has space for a new thread alone (your baby though, so you post it).

Pay has not got to be the "only" issue here, I think I've said that before. To me its more the manipulation, the non-recognition, the take and no give, the training, the expectant of more sector validations without time to sit alone on the ones youve already got tickets for, and okay you've got me, more salary as well.

WHEN, and I do say when, talks eventually break down, IPMS has to highlight all these issues countlessly to the media, B.S is always on the box denying everything and his talk, stature and approach is that of a prospective "FAT CAT, post PPP". General public are sympathetic.

As with the GULF War ie "were only going for military targets", We must be selective and countlessly repeat that we are not targetting their holidays but hit the business schedules.

I'm in TC, lets just strike approach controllers in TC for 3hrs am and pm !!! It would work.

Lastly I truly wish this could be done by IPMS-NATS talks but sadly I know that this year, they are not prepared to listen, and we should not be prepared to be stepped on anymore, the snowball just keeps getting bigger, one day its gonna break!

[WonkyVectors]

420 + others

I agree, in the event of action we must inform the media/public first and be open about our justifications,our needs and lack of respect and appreciation from the prospective "fat cats". The public as a whole have a lot of respect for what we do and hold us in high regard so to target times like Xmas etc must be a no-no, premium am and pm times should aviod the majority of holiday flights.

As to what form action should take a sort of work to rule/go slow would be an initial start point, ie strict flow restrictions, landing & dep rates, definately a training ban(for the ojti matter), increased use of holds etc.

Having said all that there are a couple of worries voiced by myself and others:
at many smaller units the ratio of managers inc wm & dwm to the rest of us is about 1-4 or even 1-3, many of whom are very career minded and this may dissuade them from rejecting any such action.
The other is that will the larger units stick with the smaller units if management come up with an offer that only benefits those at the larger units?

As a newbie at this all pointers/insults will be taken on board!!




[This message has been edited by WonkyVectors (edited 16 September 2000).]

[Bright-Ling]

Speaking on behalf of those relatively few not at a centre, I have to say that I hope those with influence (LATCC/SCATCC) staff are strong enough to go for the demands.

Without putting the onus on you chaps and chapess', it is fairly obvious that it is you who can make your point by working to rule far more than we can.

As wonky said, most airfields have a relatively high proprtion of managemnt in WM's/DWM's who may not be so militant.

Let's hope that both sides keep talking.

[Jedi Master]

I believe management are not aware of how strong the feeling is amongst operational ATCOs.
I worked in the "private" sector for many years and conditions and pay at some units are now worse within NATS.
Rest room talk is getting more and more militant.
After last weeks shifts it would now appear the majority are in favour of some positive action.
We have had enough.

Sooner or later the worms start turning.......

[This message has been edited by Jedi Master (edited 18 September 2000).]

[Numpo-Nigit]

I am told that the meeting at which management make their "final-final" offer is tomorrow (Tuesday). They are alleged to have said that they will be making an "improved" offer. My guess is that it won't be worth holding your breath for. Assuming it is still not acceptable, the next few days, weeks and months should be quite interesting!

[Jedi Master]

Re this meeting on Tuesday.......anyone know the latest?

[hooplaa]

Get your union rep to look at his/her e-mail, latest info posted this afternoon.

[ukatco]

I agree. It's time NATS ATCOs stood up for themselves.

[Jedi Master]

Thanks hooplaa but as I am unable to contact my union rep........

[420kts 250ft]

ITS TIME TO STRIKE !!!!!!

What sort of a proxy offer is that??? Half of the item are linked to a productivity of some sort that we have no real control over !!!

OJTI's 3% is the only bit of good news there! If I was a betting man, I would say that its the same pot of money made available by management but presented in a different way except the acceptance bonus.

Talking of which DONT YOU FELLOW ATCO's sell your self out for a quick lump stash !!!! NON-PENSIONABLE AGAIN = Backhander.

Remember this is the last time PRE-PPP to make a stand against being stepped on, use your vote and vote NO !!!! (sorry IPMS its not normally my style to go against you but you should stand up for a better deal)

Vote NO.....NO......NO......its time to strike!

[Oldjet Jockey]

I've just been reading all the posts on this thread and I am very sad to see most of the backbiting and insults which achieve nothing positive but only go to show the lack of real common sense of the most militant of you who I suppose to be union reps.
I am long since retired but was a controller at LATCC at the time when we didnt have the luxury of secondary radar with its helpful labels. We even closed down radar at night to practise procedural control. I last worked at LATCC as a crew chief in the early eighties.
Last week or was it the week before I saw an advert in the national press for trainee ATCOs and sure enough it mentioned the magic £50K but said only that it was possible to rise to this level. A clear indication that this was not the average salary. My point is that when one applies for a job one has the opportunity to assess the working conditions (pay, hours etc.) before accepting a job.
When I joined I knew that ATC was operating 24 hours a day every day of the year, and that ojt instruction was a normal part of the profession, as it is indeed in any profession (docters lawyers and even bricklayers) I did my share of OJTI work without ever expecting it to bring extra rewards. Yes it is demanding work, but so is radar or procedural control. How many of you have had more than thirty aircraft under only primary radar control at a time? I have and at a very much lower salary than any radar controllers get now.
I took the job knowing the conditions and was pleased to gain promotion and to get at least payrises equivalent to the increase in the cost of living.
Going on strike will cause misery and frustration to many travellers who have nothing to do with you or your current managers. Any government which gives way to blackmail, terrorism, or kidnapping is only inviting lots more trouble in the future.
If you really want to win your case go for a big press campaigne to get the public, the airlines and business on your side. If you manage it properly you will be the heros who, despite all difficulties, honoured you duty as servants of the public. This I suggest will certainly remove the possibility of you being blamed for NERCC and could well cause the right level of embarrassment to those who do not understand your position. Good luck to you all, but dont be led by a bunch of militant hotheads.
Make your case the honourable way and you will come out with a reasonable result and still be considered the best in the world

[identnospeed]

Oldjet,

Some of my fellow controllers were at LATCC from as long ago as the early seventies, and , with all due respect, I've never heard them using the arguments you have.

Most seem to long for the days you mention.

Aircraft movements have doubled since 1988 (long after you left LATCC), and while I will concede that there are more controllers, the traffic increases have outstripped the growth in ATCOs easily !!

And all this with little or no expansion of CAS.

INS

[SkyCruiser]

I feel I must reply to this thread and to some of the comments made to Flybywyre.
Firstly to AVMAN and DAVEY CLARK, your comments that an ATCO should be paid more or even 42 times more than a pilot is utter bollocks. You say you are responsable for 42 times captains and pax therefore paid this amount. Just how long are you controlling them for APPROX 4 mins each. Well how long is the captain responsable for his plane shall we say 12 hours to east asia!!!
Also when was the last time one of your workmates was killed in the line of duty pal, I have lost two mates in this year alone.I feel that all you controllers should stop moaning and get on with your well paid job.
Ever since I have worked in ATC I hear moaning about pilots and how little you get paid, well if you dont like it leave.

And to finish on how much did you have to pay to get your licence? NOTHING you got paid to train.

I have had to spend over £30,000 of my own money to obtain my CPL.
It is about time you understand how lucky you all are to have a well paid profession.

NUFF SAID.

[identnospeed]

Skycruiser,

I agree with your comments re: being paid 42 times a Cap'n salary, it is an erroneous argument.

However, your vitriolic diatribe does indicate a seriously limited view of ATCOs.

You say that you have been working in ATC ........... which unit ? Or are you an ex-ATCO who is now flying. If you are, why did you give up being an ATCO ?

Just interested to see why this issue has caused you to post such an inflammatory notice on an ATC issues site.

I am one of the vast majority of ATCOs who do not moan about how much pilots get paid, but I do moan about the bonuses paid to NATS Managers for new sector development. These new sectors are staffed by ATCOs who volunteer to maintain extra validations over and above their contractual duty (cutting management some slack, if you like) . We would like recognition for this goodwill.

cheers

INS

[Shazbat]

Skycruiser

I'd just like to echo identnospeed's post concerning salary comparison AND your somewhat nasty comments.

Why do you have such a low opinion of controllers ? I'd be very interested to know, as I *think* (hope) that you are in the minority !

If you want to start a new thread for ATCO-haters please feel free, but please refrain from posting to this one.

Thank you http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by Shazbat (edited 26 September 2000).]

[Oldjet Jockey]

To Identnospeed

Thanks for your reply. It seems that if some of your fellows have been at LATCC since the 1970s you dont include yourself among them.
I was there from the late 1950s and have seen the developments of all the technologies to help ATCOs do their work more efficiently and more safely. Even with doubled movements there have been enormous improvements in facilities and greater sectorisation to help reduce the workload.
I think you miss my main theme which is - Yes you are great guys doing a great job, but you are a service industry and you knew or should have known what you were getting into when you accepted the job. I dont want to see you lose the respect of the public and the aircrews by hurting those who have not hurt you. That is dont go on strike but get the press to start a campaigne in your behalf. There are several tabloids just waiting to start a new sensation get in touch with one like the daily mail (or any of the others). They can do a lot for your cause without the misery and costs which result from strike action. I am with you in your efforts to gain better recognition and working conditions, but you look ready to sacrifice years of reputation as the worlds best. Unlike some of the comments here I have tried to offer advice born of more than 40 years in aviation.
Think about it!

[SkyCruiser]

Shazbat,
I would hardly call my comments nasty, I am just telling you the facts. Also about a thread reguarding ACTO haters this I feel is a bit over the top. I just laid the facts on the line and I am not slagging anybody off.

I will be the first to stand up and say that we have the best controllers in the world but you are missing the point to my posting, I am simply saying stop the bitching about should you get the same pay as a pilot. These two jos are different and they will always be different.

Now lets leave it there.

SC.......................................................... ..............................

[identnospeed]

Oldjet,

You are correct, I wasn't around in the 70's (still scratching my arse in the classroom and wondering what I was going to do for a career !! ; ))

I understand that we are in a service industry (I have been employed in two other service industries before becoming an ATCO), neither particularly well rewarded, but neither quite as demanding.

I have had an aviation interest for many years and still find my job enjoyable, but I feel that my goodwill (eg. holding more than the required number of validations, which leads to de-skilling) is not being recognised adequately.

Strike action is a very last resort, however other forms of industrial action can be taken ......... the first could be the shedding of the validations over and above our contractual obligation. No strike necessary.

All the best OJ

INS

[missy]

I know this ain't gunna help but Australian ATCs are paid 8% OJTI allowance and have been for about the last ten years.

[Special VFR]

No, it ain't gunna help at all! :)

[Spotter]

So what's the poxy excuse for the T&D money not being paid in this month's salaries I wonder??

Oh well a bit more interest earned to fund a decent overall pay offer!

[Jedi Master]

Skycruiser I would be interested to know whether you were a civil or military controller and what sectors/positions you worked as a controller.

Both the job of a pilot and the job of an ATCO has changed over the last few years and the old stereotypes are no longer applicable.
I even know of ATCO's who have paid for their own training.
I recently worked as pilot (single and multi crew) before circumstances forced me to become an ATCO full time.
In that time I was not aware of any pilot who was so tired after a flight he was unable to drive home.
I was not aware of any pilot who has been found shaking in the rest room because of being overloaded.
I was not aware of any pilot who was unable to face going into work because he knew they were short staffed and he was going to be under intense pressure all shift.
I am also not aware of any ground radar equipment that is fitted with an autopilot. (autocontroller!)

The pressure a typical London TMA controller is under ALL the time he is plugged in (except at night!)is similar to trying to fly an NDB on a stormy night into XXX in a poorly equipped twin.
Many ATCO's joined the profession when it was a very different one from today.Some pilots work hard and some controllers at quieter units work less but I know where I now work has no comparison at all with sitting monitoring the automatics even on a 10/12 hour flight.

This is written, having got in shattered again from another lousy shift.




[This message has been edited by Jedi Master (edited 28 September 2000).]

[160to4DME]

Jedi

Couldn't agree more with your sentiments.

Let's just not forget, it's not only London TMA which gets like that. :)

Cheers

[FooFighter]

Skycruiser,
Whilst the point of your initial contribution may have been missed, I don't think you fully understand why ATCOs are so hacked off. Most ATCOs have no real interest in what anyone else earns, including pilots. There is no comparison. If there was, would that mean bus drivers (no disrespect) should earn the same as pilots because they are ALSO in command of a vehicle carrying the public, often for very long periods?

Staffing levels are down, traffic is rising, extra duties are rising, the training overhead is increasing, PPP is making everyone nervous because the government lied, lied some more and then lied again for good measure, and (of course) if you bought a company you'd want to see profit - how do you generate profit in ATC? Reduce overheads (staff), increase productivity (work staff harder), streamline operations (reduce support staff) and so on. Staff is what makes the game safe, right? So... we're short of staff ALREADY and now there is the prospect of enforced reductions. It isn't a great prospect for average Joe Headset-head.

People want recognition for the hard work they are putting in to paper over the cracks. If that takes the form of a pay increase, so be it. We want to stop getting shafted at every turn, and what's worse is that we suspect that this is only foreplay - the REAL "bronco" shafting has yet to come (and its got "PPP" branded on its ass).

For example - I am only a lowly sequence shuffler with not a lot of experience at an insignificant provincial airport. Whilst "critical" to the roster I have still been paid as a trainee. Like Halo, I have been that "late night senior controller on T&D". Money was never the issue. What T&D controllers wanted was RECOGNITION for the fact they were valid controllers - they were working as hard as the guys on the relevant ATCO scale - and we're not talking about parity in pay seniority, they just wanted to be on the same ladder, the bottom rung was fine. It was about RECOGNITION.

(Before anyone says it, yes, I signed up to the original terms and conditions - but getting a shot as a cadet is a great opportunity - honest, I love my job - and I was so happy I couldn't have given a flying frazoo what I signed.)

As a side issue (tongue firmly in cheek), regarding the "productivity bonus" based on increasing the amount of traffic we move. How do I play that game? Being stuck at "Bundhu International - we have customs - Airport", how do I generate more traffic to increase my productivity? I always thought traffic comes, traffic goes. I though I could jump in a Cessna and try to convince traffic skirting round the zone that they should fly to "my" airport, or transit "my" zone. Maybe fly up and down the zone boundary handing out coupons, or offer a free visual approach for every SRA. 20p off a Big Mac with every ILS approach, free regular fries with a go-around? :) It doesn't KEEP me awake at night, but I sometimes think about it if I AM awake...

Come on ladies and gents, lets look for the common ground and stop bickering - ATCOs don't always agree, but that's a by-product of the personality needed to be a good ATCO. NATS already know that a common front is hard for us to achieve, and they have been playing on it for too long. I'm not a union man (okay, I'm member of one) but if it comes to action, it really has to be the 1970s "one out, all out" - whatever action is decided on - or we'll get shafted again.

Keep the faith (and don't shoot, they're only opinions!)
===
Foo

[Shazbat]

Nice post Foo :) :) :) :)

[Numpo-Nigit]

Even before we get to vote for or against the offer, one of those generous bonuses is looking more unlikely. Remember that bonus for NERC OCT starting on time? It appears that it cannot start until LATCC ATCOs have completed their RVSM familiarisation/training. The "master plan" for 2001 had that covered, with RVSM training starting in early January before the OCT was due to begin. Now it appears that SRG have decreed that all RVSM training must occur in the 90 days before RVSM implementation. This means that any RVSM training before January 19 will not suffice, and that those ATCOs affected will have to be given alternative/additional training after January 19. This would appear to be a rather large nail in the coffin of OCT.........unless RW walks on water again, and comes up with another OCT master-plan. Talking of which, weren't we supposed to have been given our revised OCT schedule (including rostered days-in-lieu) by now?

[This message has been edited by Numpo-Nigit (edited 29 September 2000).]

[420kts 250ft]

Foo.....

I couldn't have put it better myself mate. Loads of valid points, gallons of sense and a full LHR load of traffic of issues we should all stand together on.

Right, You out there !!! If your a NATS employee reading this when it comes to ballot, VOTE NO !! Tell them no more being shafted over a barrel, No more fiddling with the same pot of money craftily disguised in a different package.

No more..."yes we'll do more work, yes we'll make it work, yes sir, **** on us as much as you want"

Managers, do us all a favour and REALLY start to communicate to the heirarchy above that the troops wont take any more. If youve got a spine in your back, you'll use it for once.

Vote NO troops, its the only way .... Ciao