Its time to Strike !!!!
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Its time to Strike !!!!
After the usual time stalling tactics by NATS (UK) management, together with poor complicated 21 month pay offers, failure to acknowledge us OJTI's country wide.
The time has come to say we wont tolerate any more being taken for granted. It is a very simple exercise to bring the London TMA to a stand still.
Maybe if we can't get them to acknowledge their employee's properly, Maybe its time to take a page out of the French ATCO's book and stand up and be counted ????
The time has come to say we wont tolerate any more being taken for granted. It is a very simple exercise to bring the London TMA to a stand still.
Maybe if we can't get them to acknowledge their employee's properly, Maybe its time to take a page out of the French ATCO's book and stand up and be counted ????
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By bigger issues do you mean the fact that we haven't got enough staff to man the positions we have now, let alone new ones, or that traffic keeps growing at 6%pa, unlike our capacity, or the fact that most of us voluntarily hold more validations than contractually required and get no reward other than more grief?
For once, much against my Gallic loathing tendencies, I'm afraid the Frenchies are probably right. Let's use some of the powder we've been keeping dry for so long, and try and improve things now before something we'll all regret happens.
For once, much against my Gallic loathing tendencies, I'm afraid the Frenchies are probably right. Let's use some of the powder we've been keeping dry for so long, and try and improve things now before something we'll all regret happens.
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agree with hoopla, strike is a strong word which is a little too much for this issue. Save it up & use it for PPP- as soon as possible preferably, nicely in time for a general election!!
But the basic point is 100%. NATS want their future staff trained up on the cheap. If they still want to claim to have the "Rolls Royce" of controllers in the world they are going to have invest in their tools- does the phrase "investing in people" spring to anyone's mind? they sure didn't mean financial investment! Disillusioned, alredy overworked ATCOs who struggle to get the right amount of time to themselves are less likely to feel motivated if their efforts are almost completely unrewarded. Not that I would question anyone's commitment to OJTIIng whilst actually carrying out that task but many are less inclined to sit with trainees because of this very fact- they do not feel appreciated in any way. Maybe NATS should invest in a "listening to people" exercise.
But the basic point is 100%. NATS want their future staff trained up on the cheap. If they still want to claim to have the "Rolls Royce" of controllers in the world they are going to have invest in their tools- does the phrase "investing in people" spring to anyone's mind? they sure didn't mean financial investment! Disillusioned, alredy overworked ATCOs who struggle to get the right amount of time to themselves are less likely to feel motivated if their efforts are almost completely unrewarded. Not that I would question anyone's commitment to OJTIIng whilst actually carrying out that task but many are less inclined to sit with trainees because of this very fact- they do not feel appreciated in any way. Maybe NATS should invest in a "listening to people" exercise.
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420/250. Your name seems to reflect a military background. If so, cast your mind back to your past and ask yourself, did OJTI's (or the equivalent) get any special recognition? Strike is a mighty big word and judicious use is the order of the day. What you must accept is that training is an integral part of ATC and that means OJTI's. If you want recognition, striking is not they way of doing things. If you want more money, well you've got no sympathy here.
PS I do not in any way defend the alleged tactics of NATS; only I think you should look at how lucky you may already be and carefully consider how green (or not) the grass is in other vocations.
PS I do not in any way defend the alleged tactics of NATS; only I think you should look at how lucky you may already be and carefully consider how green (or not) the grass is in other vocations.
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I concur with the thoughts of the majority above. I have heard that Management have come up with some ideas on recompense for OJTIs. Their apparent favourite is so complicated and open to accusations of abuse that I sincerely hope, if the rumours are indeed true, that they can come up with something a lot better. Their formula for calculating eligibilty would need a few hundred new office staff full-time, whilst making the prospects of successful training more remote than ever.
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Air traffic personnel all around Europe are faced with mounting pressures of reduced staff, increased traffic, poor conditions etc., etc. If all the respective national unions got their act together a combined European ATC strike would bring the responsible parties to their knees. Yes, NOW is the time to act. But do it together for maximum impact!
[This message has been edited by Sobelena (edited 07 September 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Sobelena (edited 07 September 2000).]
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It's not surprising that management don't take our pay claims seriously when there are so many who are eager to undermine our position by talking down the possibility of strike action.
I don't think any of us WANT to go out on strike over pay or any other issue. The fact is that over the past 10 years the company has been taking more and more from every one of us, and every time there has been lots of tough talking from the staff, but by the time it comes to the crunch there are too many who are not prepared to back their words with action.
Management have had their way every single time. When was the last time we had a pay rise which genuinely reflected the increased efficiency we have produced? It's been take take take, and now it's time for due recognition.
Otherwise the clear signal to management is "Offer them 2.5%...don't worry they'll bitch about it for a while, but if we drag it out long enough & up it a little they'll play ball."
Well not this time for me matey.
I don't think any of us WANT to go out on strike over pay or any other issue. The fact is that over the past 10 years the company has been taking more and more from every one of us, and every time there has been lots of tough talking from the staff, but by the time it comes to the crunch there are too many who are not prepared to back their words with action.
Management have had their way every single time. When was the last time we had a pay rise which genuinely reflected the increased efficiency we have produced? It's been take take take, and now it's time for due recognition.
Otherwise the clear signal to management is "Offer them 2.5%...don't worry they'll bitch about it for a while, but if we drag it out long enough & up it a little they'll play ball."
Well not this time for me matey.
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Industrial action of SOME sort is perhaps what NATS management are goading us in to.......think about it.....they KNOW that NERC is probably going to fail (how the hell they can give an operational date when they know they don't have the staff to run it is beyond me)........
.....SO.......
If we are goaded in to Industrial action then thay can lay the blame on us for NERC not becoming operational on time....which just about sums up how much of a bunch of two-faced aresholes they are !
Don't get me wrong......I am not against industrial action at all.
And a point to smooth approach ref OJTI'ing......obviously you don't work at LATCC !!!!!!!!!!!
.....SO.......
If we are goaded in to Industrial action then thay can lay the blame on us for NERC not becoming operational on time....which just about sums up how much of a bunch of two-faced aresholes they are !
Don't get me wrong......I am not against industrial action at all.
And a point to smooth approach ref OJTI'ing......obviously you don't work at LATCC !!!!!!!!!!!
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Although not involved in your particular ATC system, I have had similar experiences in other parts of the world. The same thing applies: You can never get your way by being a gentleman about it - You have to go into the manager's office and make a complete asshole of yourself to be taken notice of.
Stand up and be counted - it is the only way to find out who is your real friends!
Bye
ps: easy to make these comments when you are not affected, but serious, give it a go!
Stand up and be counted - it is the only way to find out who is your real friends!
Bye
ps: easy to make these comments when you are not affected, but serious, give it a go!
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Smooth Approach...wake up and smell the cheese!! Yes Pay is an issue, but more so is respect and recognition to Nats employees country wide!! We may moan on a Latcc saying we take the brunt of the increase in traffic etc, but when you talk to colleagues at airports, they get as much if not more of a rough deal than we do.
Two recent strike matters come to mind. 1st, BA cabin crew 3 years ago....BA couldn't sustain the loses it incurred and had to back down. The point being, BA went one step too far!!! 2nd Any damn french strike you can think of. the latest on fuel had the government making concessions in 48hrs.
This is not the late 70's early 80's where everything was government owned and loses sustained by the tax payer. This is the year 2000....global economies and BA, BAA etc will not sit back and watch their profits go down the drain all because NATS want someone to blame for NERC.
I'm not militant its just gone a bridge too far.... Shazbat your absolutely spot on, theres no way he/she holds a Latcc validation....
Two recent strike matters come to mind. 1st, BA cabin crew 3 years ago....BA couldn't sustain the loses it incurred and had to back down. The point being, BA went one step too far!!! 2nd Any damn french strike you can think of. the latest on fuel had the government making concessions in 48hrs.
This is not the late 70's early 80's where everything was government owned and loses sustained by the tax payer. This is the year 2000....global economies and BA, BAA etc will not sit back and watch their profits go down the drain all because NATS want someone to blame for NERC.
I'm not militant its just gone a bridge too far.... Shazbat your absolutely spot on, theres no way he/she holds a Latcc validation....
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I'm afraid I do get rather sick of ATCOs earning well in excess of £50K a year whining on about their low salaries and lack of recognition. Most of them have never held a job in the real world, where keeping one's job for another year is deemed a 'result', and getting a zero pay rise, or cut, is par for the course. I've been there, so I know a good thing when I see it. Most ATCOs don't do enough hours in a week to qualify as part timers - there are many more deserving cases within NATS. How much extra pay do ATC assistants get (remember them?) for mentoring the endless throughput of student ATCOs ? None. Perhaps our head-setted friends should just shut up and get on with their jobs. If they don't, they may well find themselves in a world of hurt in the post - PPP reality check. If my comments have offended anyone, I really don't care !
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Forgive you Father - for YOU have sinned!
Well, thanks for those mature, constructive and well thought out comments.
From your tone I think that you are an assistant. If so, may I reassure all that this is not the norm for ATSA's. Ours are very intelligent people.
As for PPP, unfortunately, the ATSA's are undoubtedly (and unfortunately) the MOST vulnerable bunch of people in the company.
Yes, I am somewhat biased as I wear a headset. But, to work under extreme pressure in some of the busiest airspace in the world deserves CONSIDERABLY more than £50k. To fill you in on your OBVIOUS lack of ATC/avaition knowledge, if a controller has a serious 'whoops' they may find themself in court under a manslaughter charge. Simple as that.
I hope that you stay out of your box and use both brain cells to come up with an intelligent reply.
Finally, perhaps you should be renamed MURPHY'S....as you are obviously BITTER.
Well, thanks for those mature, constructive and well thought out comments.
From your tone I think that you are an assistant. If so, may I reassure all that this is not the norm for ATSA's. Ours are very intelligent people.
As for PPP, unfortunately, the ATSA's are undoubtedly (and unfortunately) the MOST vulnerable bunch of people in the company.
Yes, I am somewhat biased as I wear a headset. But, to work under extreme pressure in some of the busiest airspace in the world deserves CONSIDERABLY more than £50k. To fill you in on your OBVIOUS lack of ATC/avaition knowledge, if a controller has a serious 'whoops' they may find themself in court under a manslaughter charge. Simple as that.
I hope that you stay out of your box and use both brain cells to come up with an intelligent reply.
Finally, perhaps you should be renamed MURPHY'S....as you are obviously BITTER.
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Judging by the extensive 1 posts of Father Jack, I don't think his contribution will be seen again, or ignored again.
Yes. Get tough. If you have a union use it.
I wish the Australian's would see that the golden opportunity of fixing the ass-chewed system that now exists with all its corporatisation/flip-flop management/performance bonus (!) for (mis)managers etc. is now! Olympic games one week away and ATC's are rolling over to have their tummys tickled.....
post olympics....Wham...expect it right up the ass! Too late...thanks for all your hard wrok at making it work, now I need MY performance bonus so off with all your heads!
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"The views expressed here are a personal rant and rave and in no way reflect the views of my employer/s "
Yes. Get tough. If you have a union use it.
I wish the Australian's would see that the golden opportunity of fixing the ass-chewed system that now exists with all its corporatisation/flip-flop management/performance bonus (!) for (mis)managers etc. is now! Olympic games one week away and ATC's are rolling over to have their tummys tickled.....
post olympics....Wham...expect it right up the ass! Too late...thanks for all your hard wrok at making it work, now I need MY performance bonus so off with all your heads!
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[email protected]
"The views expressed here are a personal rant and rave and in no way reflect the views of my employer/s "
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MY MY, Father Jack - get thee behind me satan.
1 - read the pay structure and you may be suprised to see that not all of us 'wingers' are earning that magical £50k.
2 - those that do hit this figure should be getting more in my lowly ATCO3 opinion.
3 - you may be suprised to find that we do work more than part timers. I am not going to rant on too much about those poor ATSAs in some centres that have had to wave bye bye to early goes - both ATSAs & ATCOs in the real world of Airports have commercial constraints which do play a part in contracts have been doing theirs for a long time.
4 - if you want OJTI pay for training then make like the ATCOs, JOIN YOUR UNION and get them on the case - or as is usual hang onto our shirt tails after IPMS has fought the case instead
5 - If you're that bitter and twisted over the fact that some people in life get more money than you then may I suggest you return to the cot and accept that sometimes life 'just ain't fair' and start all over again
1 - read the pay structure and you may be suprised to see that not all of us 'wingers' are earning that magical £50k.
2 - those that do hit this figure should be getting more in my lowly ATCO3 opinion.
3 - you may be suprised to find that we do work more than part timers. I am not going to rant on too much about those poor ATSAs in some centres that have had to wave bye bye to early goes - both ATSAs & ATCOs in the real world of Airports have commercial constraints which do play a part in contracts have been doing theirs for a long time.
4 - if you want OJTI pay for training then make like the ATCOs, JOIN YOUR UNION and get them on the case - or as is usual hang onto our shirt tails after IPMS has fought the case instead
5 - If you're that bitter and twisted over the fact that some people in life get more money than you then may I suggest you return to the cot and accept that sometimes life 'just ain't fair' and start all over again
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Struck some nerves, didn't I ? Could it be that those ATCOs employed by NATS (a monopoly provider of En-route services) are worried that their market value may drop when privatisation, and shortly thereafter competition,arrives ? I have nothing against ATCOs earning good money - bloody good luck to you. I just wish you'd realise that there are a lot of people who work rather harder, under equal pressure, for longer hours, for far less reward and with little job security. When was the last time you met an ATCO employed on a 12 month contract ?
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Father.....
....so, ARE you an ATSA or not?? Do tell.
By the way - I am NOT an ATCO 2, so do not earn even £30k!! Believe it or not, some of us have worked in the 'real' world and know what you mean, but sometimes life is just ****.
If you want to go down to the silly road of "Salaries worth", then there are many I could argue the same with as an ATCO.
What about Bankers, who get bonuses in excess of £50k for doing well in playing with money! No real risk there.
I feel sorry for you, as you are obviously one of the many people who have a chip on their shoulder about something. For the sake of your own mental health I suggest you just get on with life, as hoopla rightly says.
Thanks for 'endorsing' our salaries. Yes, we do realise that a lot of people work harder under equal pressure for longer hours with less reward and job security (Junior Doctor's comes to mind) but as much as I sympathise that is not our fault!
With regard to NATS' monopoly on En-Croute services being worried that the market value may drop post PPP - well, you have lost it pal.
Those of us at airports are more threatened and vulnerable.
Finally, 'tis good to see that you have sobered up a bit since your last post!
Played 2, lost 2 thus far! (Both own goals!)
....so, ARE you an ATSA or not?? Do tell.
By the way - I am NOT an ATCO 2, so do not earn even £30k!! Believe it or not, some of us have worked in the 'real' world and know what you mean, but sometimes life is just ****.
If you want to go down to the silly road of "Salaries worth", then there are many I could argue the same with as an ATCO.
What about Bankers, who get bonuses in excess of £50k for doing well in playing with money! No real risk there.
I feel sorry for you, as you are obviously one of the many people who have a chip on their shoulder about something. For the sake of your own mental health I suggest you just get on with life, as hoopla rightly says.
Thanks for 'endorsing' our salaries. Yes, we do realise that a lot of people work harder under equal pressure for longer hours with less reward and job security (Junior Doctor's comes to mind) but as much as I sympathise that is not our fault!
With regard to NATS' monopoly on En-Croute services being worried that the market value may drop post PPP - well, you have lost it pal.
Those of us at airports are more threatened and vulnerable.
Finally, 'tis good to see that you have sobered up a bit since your last post!
Played 2, lost 2 thus far! (Both own goals!)
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FatherJack, did you fail your cadetship? Sorry to hear that !!!!
Remember how long it takes to get one of us trained and invested in? Not exactly ideal for a 12 month contract hey?
BACK TO THE POINT.....Minimum 6% traffic increase year on year, Poxy 21 month pay offer, complete insult to OJTI recognition, Average IPMS pay settlement 4.5%. Non-state airports overtaking the ATCO3's even more, and where are we ???? Still waiting for management to make another insulting gesture to our existence within ATC !!!!
IPMS reps out there - It really is time to hit below the belt, I beleive the overwhelming majority would come out tomorrow!
Remember how long it takes to get one of us trained and invested in? Not exactly ideal for a 12 month contract hey?
BACK TO THE POINT.....Minimum 6% traffic increase year on year, Poxy 21 month pay offer, complete insult to OJTI recognition, Average IPMS pay settlement 4.5%. Non-state airports overtaking the ATCO3's even more, and where are we ???? Still waiting for management to make another insulting gesture to our existence within ATC !!!!
IPMS reps out there - It really is time to hit below the belt, I beleive the overwhelming majority would come out tomorrow!
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Father Jack......it's obvious to me - and a lot of others - that you have an axe to grind when it comes to ATCOs. There is no other job as stressful as this....although some may be blase about it, just look at the drawn faces of controllers when relieved after a balls-out session on a busy sector.
Are you an assistant (most of us were).....or perhaps a failed ATCO ?
I read, and will treat, your comments with the utter contempt they deserve.
Are you an assistant (most of us were).....or perhaps a failed ATCO ?
I read, and will treat, your comments with the utter contempt they deserve.