Arrogant Unobliging ATC ers

[Speedbrake Lever]

Well I fly East -West and back many many times

Why have these people gotta be the
most arrogant and if you listen to them rudest ATC ers I've ever had to listen to.

And I have friends in ATC in Europe FAR and Mid East.


I've thought this for several years now but it's finally really P***ing me off just listening to them.

Who ? any ATC ers heard the same

I'll be back

[Shazbat]

so who ARE "these people" Speedbrake ?

[identnospeed]

Yes, can you be more specific please Speedbrake.

INS

[Speedbrake Lever]

OH Hello just thought I might get a reply or even a guess which is why I left it

ok who

Dubai

[Glum Weeper]

Speedbrake Lever,
I know the ATCO`s in DXB very well and although I appreciate what you`re saying let`s not tar everyone with the same brush. The majority are very good and are accomodating to requests.....ie.opposite direction runway,...etc.
The mix of traffic at DXB means there are many diferent crews from all over the world, some of which will try anyones patience.
Having said that there are the minority that are abrupt and ise very non-standard phraseology. Can you be more specific...ie accent/nationality?

[Speedbrake Lever]

Oh I can, it seems to be the same 3 or 4 I must come across.

But be it on Ground, Tower or Approach I must get them and the dressing down these people give to A/C,
Not only to all the Various ex Russians but
to BR, CX , GF, Oman Air that I have heard

Yes its not all, I'll find out their Nationalities if you like but I'd say either British (Irish), maybe S.A.

An example : Any Speed Restriction ?

We have a 250 kt. restriction at Dubai

But its the Tone, perhaps some non national English speaking Pilots won't get the Tone

I am not talking about their job, just their
arrogance mostly particulary to foreign
operators
It has only seemed to be around in the last year or so
but what I heard about the QNH setting and the Atis a short while ago just rose my skin

and not to a CIS outfit either
a far eastern one, rather well known.

[Glum Weeper]

Speedbrake,
Okay, I know what your saying, but as I said before the VAST majority of controllers at DXB are there to do the best job they can under very trying circumstances. Circumstances that crews operating in and out of DXB will not be aware of, eg.....low morale, un-reliable equipment and a poor employee/management relationship. These aren`t excuses but contributing factors to ATCO`s short fuses.

[Speedbrake Lever]

OK I take your point
as I said its not all, and I'm not judging their competence

Its a pity they have come across like this cos it takes a lot to go to writing about this as against previously just talking about it.
I'll just leave it at that.
I didn't know about the various things you mention but with the sort of posts in this network on Pprune you'd think Dubai was heaven on earth the way people talk obviously it isn't

[Late Landing]

Speedbrake,

Dubai certainly isn't the land of milk and honey for ATCs, and this is first-hand info! Low morale caused by new 'state of the art' equipment that doesn't live up to its sales pitch, a management that does not really care as long as the company's contract stays intact, an airport that changes virtually daily due to construction, and Emirates flying staff continually getting performance bonuses while ATC, without whom these bonuses would often not be acheived, don't even get an Emirates rebate that is cheaper than an 'across the counter' airfare by way of thanks. (For those of you that don't know - Emirates Airlines and Dubai Airport are basically one in the same.)
Add the above to the 'summer surprise' (45 degrees!!) and the road rage getting to work; you should count yourself lucky to get away with a bit of 'attitude' for asking a dumb-assed question about speed control when it is published!

Glum Weeper,
One would hope you know the Dubai controllers very well - aren't you one!!!!

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My views are personal and DEFINITELY don't reflect those of my employer!

[Speedbrake Lever]

I don't ask for Speed Variances normally

Well not at Dubai cos I know what I'd get

But those that do are asking like a
request
but that's what this is all about
and your assertion that its dumb assed to
ASK just shows what I mean.

You have you're busy times there I agree
but you also have times when you're not
take out your Rage on Emirates then

Bye Bye

[Glum Weeper]

Hey Late Landing!
Glad to see your still alive and the move hasn`t dampened your desire to voice an opinion!
Your legacy lives on!!

[yakkity]

Hi There Speed brake lever,
Have you ever tried to meet/ask the ATCO'S in Dubai on a more personel level. Maybe you'll find them a far more social bunch than you think. AND AS FOR THEM BEING THE RUDEST AND MOST ARROGANT YOU HAVE EVER COME ACROSS ... hahahahahahahahaha.

[fweeeeep]

Hello, and yes I am also one of those who work at Dubai,

There are various factors at work here. Just to put things a little in perspective.

When an aircraft doing 320+ knots passing FL105 ask if there are any speed restrictions, I imagine there is sufficient reason to get just a little annoyed, especially when the ATC has said nothing wrt speed control.

When an aircraft has to wait for at least 4 or 5 other transmissions before they get responded to, it is anoying when their next request is for the opposite runway !!!

When one gives a heading after clearly and slowly using the callsign and speaking (specifically) clearly, and the pilot (of the correct a/c) says Uuuh was that for us, heading 300 ? then yes, I get a little annoyed. When all those events happen in the space of 2 minutes, I tend to let rip with a sarcastic comment like "Yes, runway 30 will be available in about 4 hours time, where would you like to hold?"

It is wrong to be sarcastic and abrupt on the frequency, but we ARE all human. I try my best to be formal and polite, it is NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE.

[???]

Absolutely incredible! Nothing like customer service huh....

[Avman]

Speedbrake Lever, only this morning I heard the following exchange:

NIGEL: Shannon NIGEL xxx requesting 370.

SNN: NIGEL xxx roger, I'll see what I can do.

SNN: OTHER zzz Shannon, what is your Mach setting at FL370?

OTH: Mach .80 Shannon.

SNN: Roger, thank you....NIGEL xxx what would be your Mach setting at 370?

NIGEL: That would be .84 Shannon.....but we can do anything you want.

SNN: Roger NIGEL xxx, I can offer you FL370 with speed restriction or FL390 unrestricted.

NIGEL: Ok Shannon, we'll take 370 with the speed restriction.

SNN: NIGEL xxx climb to FL370 and cruise at mach .80 or less.

pause.

NIGEL: Er, Shannon .80 is a little too slow for us, we'll stay at FL350 if that's OK?

I could just picture the poor fellow at Shannon banging his head on his console in desperation!! Face it Speedbrake, you drivers can be a bit blo*dy daft at times :)

[fart]

Being talked of is better than being ignored!
Yeah, I agree that some of my co-workers can get a bit agitated at times, but I think most of the time they are doing a fine job and oblige to any reasonable request.

I do apologise for our "arrogance" from time to time and rudeness in my opinion can never be justified. It does not suit any professional and I have heard some "extreme remarks" by some I work with. I would suggest that anyone unhappy with the service, phones up the supervisor and have a chat about it. Let me know if you need the number.
I hate to wash my laundry in public, but I think this time the shoe fits and if it is one's size, one should wear it! I leave myself open to a good bollocking from my mates now, but hopefully the message gets around. I always enjoy a bit of humour, but arrogance over the air is not acceptable.

Speedbrake Lever, thanks for the post and I would have felt worse if you doubted our competence! Next time you are planning a high speed descend , call us about 120 nm out and I am sure, traffic permitting, you will get a service with a smile!

Bye.

[yakkity]

???
welcome boss...........

But you know the Customer is always first.

But do they Know all the truth

[Late Landing]

Yakkity,
boss...no, perhaps second pretender to the STO position! Got to look good to management!

Reference the 'customer service' comments earlier in this discussion. The 'right' of a customer to receive a service is surely also bound by the responsibility of the customer not to abuse the system. If a blanket speed restriction is established, it is usually for a very good reason, and, at the discretion of the service provider, it would be removed (and in Dubai it usually is!). An extra call, quering the speed control when in a busy traffic situation, is not appreciated. Similarly the operators (KLM and GFA to name a couple) who, whether trying to be funny or not, ask for the non-active straight-in runway irrespective of the traffic situation, deserve nothing more than contempt, whether verbally or in thought alone!

As for the rudeness on frequency, agreed, it is not very professional. However, if operators into Dubai were aware of the trying circumstances in which ATCOs are operating, due mainly to the lack of concern shown by the ATC management regarding the continuos short-comings in the ATC system - both in operational instructions and equipment failures, perhaps they would be a little more patient. Hopefully they would also be a little less judgemental if the ATCO occasionally had a total sense of humour failure when confronted with a ridiculous request!




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My views are personal and DEFINITELY don't reflect those of my employer!

[Glum Weeper]

Late Landing,
Didn`t I say that already?
Think this subject has been "done" now chaps.

[Tropical Storm 7B]

Hey Speedbrake !!

just been there (DXB) two days ago

see what you mean !!

Manners ?

huh ! i reckon they're all single there

couldn't imagine too many people wanting to go for a drink with that lot

roll on Lagos !! didn't think I'd really ever say that

[Fokker28]

Hey Fweeeeep,
With all due respect, when you make one of those legendarily well enunciated calls of yours and 'we' (any pilot) ask, "Was that for XXXX?" NINE times out of TEN it is because either: (1) you mistakenly used a slight variation of our callsign. We are 99% sure you meant us, but 1% may mean too many dead peopl, so we HAVE to ask, or (2) your award winning 'transmission de resistance' WAS PARTIALLY BLOCKED!!! Because we want to keep the chatter down for you we just say, "Was that for...?" instead of, "You were blocked. Was that for...?" Getting "The Attitude" when ATC mispoke usually makes us laugh and say, "I sure wish I didn't make any mistakes, either!" to each other! Of course, sometimes we simply miss the call due to: a/c irregularity under discussion, meal service under discussion, new flight attendant uniform policy under discussion, overspeed horn under discussion (you get the idea). But, this happens less than you think. Next time, remember to turn down that scope so you can see your reflection in it. Maybe it was YOU!

Best wishes- I do have great respect for you guys and what you DO put up with. I wouldn't last a week!

Fokker28

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In a world full of people, only some want to fly. Isn't that crazy? -Seal

[This message has been edited by Fokker28 (edited 23 October 2000).]

[Speedbrake Lever]

Well its sort of gone quiet on this one ok

But Avman as regards Mach speeds across the Pond, well yes i can see that 'll do your head in a bit
in the particular case your talking about its obvious it was a 74 they don't do .80
Md's and 777 don't like it too good either

75, 76, 330, 340 they do.
Well thats the Level- Cruise stuff

As regards Dubai, they don't do that

They are Approach Tower and Ground
I believe they receive control from Emirates Control on descent at about Fl 150(Trans Level) and hand you back about 10000 ft on the climbout

Yes they do have lots of planes from places where their command of English isn't great but Not all the time but a LOT the way they speak to these people their Tone is Crap
I notice it, perhaps these Foreigners !!!
don't

To save yourselves on the hassle then Dubai
declare by the Jepp charts, Notam, or on your automated ATIS that speed control is always in effect,
London has control but sometimes you can get a high speed if you ask admittedly not often
but they don't have an attitude problem or if they do they don't let it out,

oh Yes ! Forgot to mention Your Favouritism towards Emirates is outstanding

Are you guys living on your nerves there its so obvious.
We should all get our Commercial Depts to plan arriving and leaving Dubai when Emirates are all done with, its amusing to watch

[Glum Weeper]

Speedbrake lever,
Thought this thread had died due lack of interest, obviously not. After struggling with your poor grammar all I have to say is:

1. The speed restriction is published in the UAE AIP, but is usually lifted unless required.
2. Despite what you may think Emirates do NOT get priority. We get less rebate travel from then than anyone else!
3. Get a life!!

[Late Landing]

Speedbrake Lever,

Emirates get priority - not in my five and a half years in Dubai. Perhaps a perception at certain times due to the number of Emirates start-ups and departures, but intentionally NO, deifinitely not! (In fact the converse may be true with some of the ATCOs.)

Speed restrictions are published in the Jepp as well as the UAE AIP (also found in the ICAO proceedures for type "C" airspace).

The guys in DXB do a great job under (at times) extremely trying circumstances. Next time you pass through DXB perhaps a visit to the Approach room and a chat would help you understand, and you would be less critical.




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My views are personal and DEFINITELY don't reflect those of my employer!

[atc_ring]

...I've been following this thread for a few days now and I'd like to chip in a couple of thoughts from personal experience....
In any busy ATC sector (..anywhere) some simple human factors should be taken into consideration:

ATCers subjected to continuous traffic demand tend to become irritable. The traffic saturation level differs from person to person, but it takes only one additional pilot (with a perfectly reasonable request sometimes..) to trigger the effect and from that moment R/T resembles a tug-o-war for frequency time.
In such a situation pilots should try to avoid unnecessary requests (eg. shortcuts) until frequency becomes again desaturated.
Another good practice is after changing frequency to another sector to monitor for a few seconds before transmitting, to avoid stepping onto someone else's transmission...

...frequency time can become a very precious and rare commodity.

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...time danaos et dona ferentes

[LoLevel]

God I hate having to repeat myself


God I hate having to repeat myself

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[email protected]
"The views expressed here are a personal rant and rave and in no way reflect the views of my employer/s "

[smooth approach]

Nothing beats a supercilious ticking-off at HRW when you've missed the fast turn-off.

Tower - "Ahhhh, Speebird ***, just a reminder, we are an extremely busy airport and we would really appreciate it if you expedited off the runway at the earliest opportunity before I sting you for £10 000 and, by the way, it is so inconvenient for me to have to spend so much time reminding you of the procedures bearing in mind that I am obviously far more important than you, you mere bus driver"

Speedbird *** - "Sorry for missing the turning but I don't suppose a anti-skid failure combined with some impressive wake turbulence would count as a reasonable excuse?"

[This message has been edited by smooth approach (edited 25 October 2000).]

[stonefish]

well...I tried to refrain from replying to this post, but after a few glasses of water, having spent eight hours struggling to retain some form of order within our skies,I would like to offer the following remarks...
Speed control is published..don't shoot yourself in the foot by asking if there is any. The correct call is "request high speed below 10,000ft" then we KNOW you're a professional like the rest of us.
We get exceptionally high RT loading here so, if your given instructions just do it and keep the RT to a minimum (LISTEN to what is going on!)
-not so long ago a highly respected far east airline used to perpetually ask for a straight in approach when they were told they were 5 or 6 in the sequence for the opposite runway...is that intelligent or what???-
Tropical Storm....Lagos?...you must be pulling my chain...good luck squire!!!!
Late Landing....you can say what you like now unless you're planning on coming back!!
My water bottle is empty and I'm off to bed 'cos I've got to do it all AGAIN tomorrow...

[HounslowHarry]

Hey "smooth approach"

Don't blame us. YOUR companies insist we shove 'em down the ILS like Sardines, and YOUR companies wanted the Minimum Runway Occupancy instructions so WE could make them more money.

I suppose it will all get better when we are owned by the airline, but Hey that's a whole new post.

On a concillatory note smooth approach, come visit us and see the pressures, and remember, most of us try not to bollock anyone since we are all trying to achieve the same thing, the only difference being that pilots only look 25 degrees each side of straight ahead. Oh No - another new topic - I must stop doing that.