Eghi / Eghh

[tribekey]

Here's one for the pot; is a combined Southampton / Bournemouth approach on the cards to be run from Swanwick?
It would seem to make sense if all parties could get together.

[bmb7jiw]

Bournemouth is not a NATS airport currently, so until that happens definitely not!
Swanwick deals with the more high level stuff, they dont do any approach work currently and wont be doing until LATC (Terminal Control) moves down from West Drayton. Even then I dont see EGHH/EGHI being busy enough to justify it.

bmb7jiw

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Commonsense is rarely a factor in such decisions... otherwise Northolt would have been run from Heathrow Approach 40 years ago.

[Vlad the Impaler]

Wouldn't be surprised if the TC relocation brings EGHI into the fold. They and farnboring are currently the only sarf of england NATS airports to run their own approach. I suspect it makes sense from a manpower point of view to have a big melting pot of approach controllers in the one place. I think the chances of HH being involved are significantly less due to the obvious already mentioned and that of radar coverage. The watchman in use at HI has some poor coverage over bournemouth way (or at least it used to !)

[5milesbaby]

A little more into the pot then, how long before Solent Zone gets more airspace ie part of N866 upto FL100 down towards ASPEN? :confused:

[ebenezer]

Wouldn't be surprised if the TC relocation brings EGHI into the fold. They and farnboring are currently the only sarf of england NATS airports to run their own approach

Sorry Vlad, but apart from your spelling, your information is also totally incorrect.

The NATS units at Birmingham and Manchester both have approach radar on site. If by "England" you really do mean "England" then that's it as far as current NATS units are concerned although of course in Wales, Cardiff is a stand-alone radar unit, in Northern Ireland, so is Belfast Intl., and in Scotland, so are Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

As for Southampton moving to Swanwick, well it might seem logical but first consider why BAA would agree to pay for Band 5 ATCO 2s providing the approach radar from Swanwick when all they're currently paying for are Band 1 ATCO 3s at Southampton...

So no cost benefit - and difficult to see any tangible operational benefit (a primary and secondary radar feed from the NAS computer into Southampton would adequately serve Southampton and Bournemouth, and would also provide conflict alert for the guys operating Solent).

:hmm:

[1261]

I don't think that even the most optimistic southerner could contend that BB or CC were darn sarf, ebenezer. :)

[ebenezer]

Oops I see - sorry, not up to speed with cockney rhyming slang...

My other comments however, still stand.

:O

[Gonzo]

Would Southampton be charged more though?

Surely the Approach ATCOs would then be paid by Swanwick (NERL) rather than Airports (NSL), so it might actually reduce the fee come contract renewal time.

[ebenezer]

The arrangement would be similar to London City and Luton - NATS Airports pays NATS En-route for the approach radar services and this is in turn, funded from the contract price with the airport.

Technically, if NATS Airports was willing to absorb the additional cost of ATCO 2s at a Band 5 unit providing the service, yes it's feasible.

But given NATS Airports' new commercialism, it's unlikely.

One 'wild card' is that the Single European Sky (SES) initiative actually sees all air traffic control provision being done through direct charges on the users i.e. aircraft operators.

Therefore, if this became standard practice under SES, it would be the actual cost per flight that dictated where the service was provided from and it's probable that the cost would somehow be 'lost' in the overall Eurocontrol route charges protocol and so be transparent to the aircraft operators.

All very :suspect: ....

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

HD, some of us would have preferred running Heathrow from Northolt. ;)

[VectorLine]

Wouldn't be surprised if the TC relocation brings EGHI into the fold. They and farnboring are currently the only sarf of england NATS airports to run their own approach

Manston (EGMH) does it's own APC

[lobby]

EGMH is not a NATS unit !

[BEXIL160]

Manston (EGMH) does it's own APC

I wish it would :(

Rgds BEX

[Vlad the Impaler]

sorry guys and gals, it appears I no speak de english very good. so here it is in big letters. I was talking about airfields in the south of england, and specifically those operated by NATS.......I hope that clears it up !!

[ebenezer]

Yeh, very sorry Vlad my mistake: as I said earlier, I'm not up to speed with cockney rhyming slang...

But I still don't see NATS paying Band 5 ATCO 2s to provide the Solent Radar service unless the 'unit' also takes some delegated airspace from Swanwick (cf. Cardiff).

:O

[Vlad the Impaler]

I see what you are saying but also bear in mind that a TC approach controller could be cross valid at HI with any other and so this reduces the overall number of controllers required as they can chop and change to cover other airports as they do now between SS and KK for instance. Don't tell me that solent approach is less busy than Luton and they do that at TC (read any good books lately lads ?). Lots of Thames radar controllers knocking around TC looking for another validation. Bums already on seats. I'm sure that the overriding vision would see all our airports tower only with all approach functions carried out by the happy families at the centres.
We will see..............

[Jerricho]

Lots of Thames radar controllers knocking around TC looking for another validation.

I hear that dinky little Heathrow approach cell is short of some bodies ;). Seriously though, has there been any talk of LL guys doing Thames/SVFR duties other than night shifts?

[Gonzo]

They do already, don't they?

[Northerner]

Heathrow APC do SVFR at night.

There are currently Heathrow controllers training to do SVFR in the day. I'm not sure how many though, but I know it is happening.

Not sure about them training onto Thames though.

[Gonzo]

Well, I know I had hear APC guys doing Special during the day sometimes. Didn't realise they were still training.

Would any LL APC ATCOs want to do Thames? :E

[Jerricho]

Does ANYBODY want to do Thames? :E

[Vlad the Impaler]

Oooh you bitch.
The point I think I was trying to make is that just because HI is a band one unit, does not mean that they would not consider incorporating the solent approach function into TC as it happened with Luton and they are also band one.
Do the Luton guys still get paid over the odds ?
(CAN of WORMS....)

[ATCO Two]

Gonzo, Jericho

Two Heathrow Approach Controllers per Watch will cross train onto daytime SVFR to allow staffing flexibility, although the SVFR position will still remain part of the TC Thames "Group". The first EGLL APC Controller has a board on 24th January. There are no plans to cross train EGLL APC Controllers onto Thames.

Thames will be part of the airports group and will be linked to Gatwick, Stansted and Luton. Thames Controllers (now we are approaching full numbers) will be expected to cross train onto at least one other airport sector. Some of us will even retrain onto Heathrow Approach.

[Jerricho]

Thanks for the update ATCO 2.

I hope you have made that lazy so-and-so Hammy do it ;)

[Bright-Ling]

Lots of Thames radar controllers knocking around TC looking for another validation

Lots of college instructors who have never worked at a busy airfield too! Perhaps they should do part time Instructing and part time controlling in the TMA/Approach!?!

:O

[Vlad the Impaler]

Lots, as in how many ?????????????

[Bright-Ling]

Well as you are there tell me how many HAVE then....

[Jerricho]

You're up late B-L. You wet the bed? ;)

[Bright-Ling]

Not late where I am fella!!!

"Pass the Pimm's dear boy....."

lovely Jubbly

[Vlad the Impaler]

I am where ???
I think perhaps you are confusing me with somebody else.....

[055166k]

Combining Southampton and Bournemouth approaches has a certain logic. Bournemouth radar "sees" much further south than Southampton radar if the antiquated 40-mile rule still applies.....is it 40 miles from the "head" or the "unit"?.......anyhow it would allow a low sector delegated to operate directly with Jersey Zone, taking Swanwick out of the loop completely.
All it needs is the will to make it work and a feed from the Radar...but from which unit to which.....bids on a post-card please.
Precedents:-
Cardiff......brilliant success.....NATS now in a rabid frenzy to take over Bristol ATC.

[VectorLine]

OOPPS!

Scan reading to quickly and missed the point about NATS airfields in the south.

Anyway - Solent are without SSR until later this year (Did I read something about it being extended till September?) because the Peas is Kaput.

Why can't they get a feed from EGHH until then? It's probably all very complicated but since the Red Baron keeps telling us that NATS has the greatest pool of intellectuals he has ever seen, it must be possible (microwave link?).

[Bright-Ling]

Morning Vlad.

Sorry for the mis-ident if there was one.

[Free Love Freeway]

...do they have people at TC that do Thames only?

And is that because they are due to Xtrain soon, or because that's that?

PS "SARF" isnt cockney rhyming, it's how savverners say south

eager to hear an answer to my question

muchas gracias

[Vlad the Impaler]

Free Love Freeway,
Once upon a time in a land far, far away there were a brave band of guys and gals who used to live in the bowels of Heathrow tower and provide Thames Radar & Heathrow SVFR.
Then one day during the great autumn of 2003 a mysterious flood occured and drowned the buggers. Those that survived were swiftly rehoused at TC down the end on the left hand side next to their heathrow approach buddies. Many of these tortured souls were also tower controllers but eventually a staff split was devised that allowed the two to function separately (I believe that to be the case, correct me if I am wrong). Sometime around april 2004 Thames officially became part of the TC family (some three years earlier than planned).
All was well in the world, sort of.
Those lovely thames chaps and chapettes do not work when the sun sinks below the horizon as heathrow approach take SVFR at night, and so they were invited to turn their hands to other airports so that they could partake in the great night shift snooze in. I suspect that they have now begun to train on other approach units now but that is the reason that they were initially thames only.
And they all lived happily ever after
The End.


Edited to correct terrible spelling mistake.

[Spitoon]

Why can't they get a feed from EGHH until then?Ahh, but HH isn't run by NATS. You could ask the same question of the source at Jersey.

The reason that you might imagine this solution is kinda unlikely will depend on your degree of cynicism.

The real question might be that surely there must have been some SSR data within the NATS system that could have given some coverage in the Solent area - or was poor coverage considered worse than none?

BTW, nothing so technical as a microwave link would be needed, a telephone line suffices in most other cases.

[Jerricho]

That's a good story there Vlad.

Tell me the one about TC moving to Swanwick.

[Vlad the Impaler]

Once upon a time, in a distant land far, far away there were a brave gang of guys and gals who used to work in the bowels of the London Terminal Control Centre in west drayton.
And they're still there and likely to remain so for the forseeable future.
And some of them lived happily ever after.
The rest were mighty f***ed off.
The End.

[Standard Noise]

"Cardiff..........brilliant success"
I thought success was in the eye of the receiver!

As for NATS being in a "rabid frenzy to take over Bristol ATC". Tell me, just how rabid are we talking here, they're taking so long we've almost forgotten they exist!:zzz:

[almost professional]

"great night shift snooze in" I wish!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Vlad... You've stopped taking those tablets I prescribed haven't you!