Standard of students coming through!!

[ojt...aye]

with all the recent threads about upcoming test days ....and how DO you become an ATCO, has anyone else noticed a distinct drop in the standard of student being put forward through the system?.At this unit we have a constant flow of six weekers and the unanimous opinion of the OJTI's is that a lot of them seem to treat the whole experience as a bit of a holiday!! When I went through ,it was three courses a year and the guys seemed very motivated ....p'raps I am just turning into an old git but things seemed to be treated more seriously a few years ago!!!
I am NOT having a pop at the college here ,but what is going on with the initial interviews ????

[Bright-Ling]

OJTI, I agree.

It seems that no-one is interested in the job anymore, just the money (Yes yes yes I know it is important!) - But, hey, come on.

Ironically, when I got to the College I felt quite proud of myself, having gone through all the interviews/tests etc. When I had heard how many hundreds get turned away for a course I was soooooo chauffed it was untrue.

Then, I met the course F***wits!!! What a bunch of clowns 3 of them were. How on Earth they got through an interview I'll never know. Two could hardly speak!!
It completely took away any feeling of personal achievement.

Fortunately, those brave (!) chaps and chapesses from CATC chopped them, but only when the clowns really screwed up repeatedly!

Some people are being pushed through again and again and again, until they pass.

Inevitably, this becomes a training problem at the units who have to spend time training and then, if brave enough, to chop them.

As OJTI says, it is not so much the CATC instructors (though some remain apallingly out of touch) but the Recruitment system. (Particularly the muppet in charge). Are we really that short to lower standards as OJTI suggests?!?!?!?!?

Still, I suppose three COMPLETE wasters out of 36 is quite a good average really!!!

[This message has been edited by Bright-Ling (edited 23 August 2000).]

[tower power]

Hang on....

That is a bit harsh, yes i know that a 6 week stint is a bit of a holiday but how about the actual students who appear at your unit for their final posting?? I would think that they have a little more motivation.

And as for the college repetedly pushing people through until they pass, that was not the case when i was there! I left the college in 1999. Luckily i got through the college without a fail but i know many people who did fail and were a little unfairly treated.

Perhaps if the college treated students a little better then they may take the whole system a little more seriously!

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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!

[This message has been edited by tower power (edited 25 August 2000).]

[cleared2land 27left]

here here,

I was at a small unit for my 6 weeks OJT and i took it seriously but i know that some others on my course did not. Surprisingly those who did not show much interest in the OJT became area controllers so i think that removes the alleged problem. Tower Power you must have been on the same course as me, or were all the courses like that!

[tower power]

Which unit are you doing OJT at dog?

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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!

[tower power]

that is true!

Anyway, best of luck on the 6 week holiday as some would claim.

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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!

[ojt...aye]

tower power ...of course the guys who turn up on their postings are motivated ....this is when you start to really see what life is about .....I am referring to the guys who think "sod it I am never going to see an aeroplane again why should I make an effort?" " six weeks from now I am back in Bournemouth so who gives a toss?!" the guys who spend a hell of a lot of time patiently going grey watching raw recruits are getting rightly hacked off with this sort of attitude !!.

[Numpo-Nigit]

Whilst agreeing in principle with the apparent lower standard of student these days, and the lack of interest in aviation these days, from the area view-point I feel sorry for those on their six-week "holiday". To a newcomer at a place like LATCC it must be a totally over-whelming experience. It is an enormous warren with vast numbers of people milling about apparently at random. If the trainee gets any attention at all, it is a very unstructured "training experience", and can do no more than instill in the "victim" just how complicated the job appears to be. It should be better than this but, with the vast numbers "passing through" (never to be seen again in most cases), and the pressures on the operational staff due to NTT/OCT/ECT/staff shortages/travel days/et al, there is just nobody available to give these folks the break that they (at least the better ones) deserve.

My advice is, despite the pressure at the interview to deny being an aviation person, "come out of the closet" when you get to a real ATC environment. If you show a genuine interest in aviation you will find both ATCOs and ATSAs generally will do their best to encourage and educate you within the constraints that time and NATS management(?) will allow.

Good luck to you all - my early retirement depends on you validating !!!

[Jas]

Well I must say this is all very interesting to me, being in the position I'm in (See my previous post 'Upcoming Test Day...'). Now I'm even more worried about getting my results - and it's only the initial tests http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Cheers, Jas.

[Goldfish Watcher]

I was lucky - I went to an airport on OJT where I was very well treated and learned a lot from my six weeks. In fact I'll tell you where - Birmingham

However, it's not easy to stay motivated when the more disgruntled members of the ATCO community continue to slag off CATC. More than once have I been told (not particularly on Aerodrome OJT) that the only thing CATC was good for was to teach RT discipline and the rest was worth forgetting - even then you get laughed off the face of the earth the first time you say "one Tousand" :-)

I do agree though that some people go to OJT thinking that just because they hold a student licence that they are the mutts nuts. I think students should be reminded before going on OJT that they are still a loooooong way from becoming a valid controller. And maybe if OJTI's were rewarded more they would once again become tolerant, caring mentors to us poor chaps and chappesses learning our trade.

[tower power]

I was also lucky to have a good OJT. I went to a smaller airport but this was much to my advantage. I could get in and do something and even passed a 50 hour check.

It does seem that those outside CATC do slag it off, especially once you have left.

And also, tolerant + caring those are the first 2 words that spring to mind when describing a mentor. ;)

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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!

[granny smith]

OJT-aye et al

sorry I can't sit here and read this bolloks without commenting :mad:

Whilst it is perfectly true that the demographics of the student ATCO population have changed greatly over the last 10 - 15 years it is totally wrong to damn the majority of SATCs just because a few don't take the job seriously enough. In addition, those of you who slag of CATC and the instructors there should go for a look sometime. There are very few dinosaurs left and even the area side is attracting some new blood. These people are recently operational ATCOs and know what it is like in the field at the moment. Remember the majority of these instructors want to go back operational after their CATC tour is up.

What the SATC posters say is true. During the formative exercises instructors are normal human beings (or as close as any ATCO can be to normal!) but when it matters in the summative phases they take great pride in their professional integrity by not passing those who do not come up to standard. CATC is the first line of defence for the operational OJTIs. Unfortunately the system post-RGAT is far from perfect and some idiots do still escape their villages to make it out to the units. No system can be 100% water-tight.

I firmly believe that the 'finished product'that CATC produces is of a consistently high standard and these young people deserve to be given all help that you as operational ATCOs can provide. Be honest with yourselves - what were you really like when you left CATC? I doubt if you were very much different from the SATCs of today.

There, I'll climb down of my high horse now but it's a long way down!!

[get'em to heaven & back]

just to add my tuppence worth- I think the standard of 6-weeker probably hasn't changed that much recently, same old mix of reasonable and "have you actually done an aerodrome course?" however surely it's incumbent on the ojtis to try and draw maximum effort from their charges and actually earn the extra money they would like to see for this extra responsibility (here's hoping it actually materialises). those at catc have a very difficult task, teaching complete novices, so give them credit for gettting the ball rolling at all with some of these people. glad to see egbb getting praise as an ojt spot- any others worthy of mention? good or bad? if a unit has a bad rep it should be sorted out, bad ojti-ing can leave permanent scars that just won't go away within the time-scale up to the first summative on the subsequent course. good luck to all those on or going on ojt shortly. keep the rest of us informed as to what you make of the 6-week experience.

[U R NumberOne]

A warning to any students going on their 6 week OJT - DO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY! Not too long ago a student came to us and left having got a good amount of RT time in which was of a good standard for his level of experience, but as he managed to wind almost all of the ATCOs up with his attitude, both in work and outside, when we were asked if would would like to have this individual back, the answer was a resounding NO :mad: .

How you behave on your six weeks can affect your whole career - think about that!

[tower power]

Yes i agree that the 6 week stint can effect your whole career, someone off a previous course was borderline in a check. When his personnel file was looked at the unit manager said "your attitude to the 6 week OJT course was not very good" and this was one of a few reasons as to why he got the chop.

Your attitude can effect you throughout your training from catc to the initial posting. SO watch what you do and what you say!

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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!

[10W]

I think generalising is a little too harsh. There are varying standards of people at all levels in ATC.

Certainly the 6 weekers I've met recently during my occasional forays in the Ops Room have been a good bunch, very amiable, and at the standard you would expect for their stage of training. They also buy the Watch beer at the end of their time so they can't all be bad ;) All we need is the Drinkathon date from our current young lady confirmed and she'll pass the final test.

The worrying thing is that none of them can keep up with us old hands when it comes to quaffing drink in the pub though ........ what are the youth of today coming to ?? :)

Down in Bournemouth next week, so watch out young 'uns, there's a PPRuNer about !!

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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]

[granny smith]

Dog on Wheels

my spies in the 'college of knowledge' tell me that the "back-stabbing bastards" comment went down a treat with the instructors! I just hope they don't find out who you are cos I get the feeling your ATC career may be short but interesting :)

on a more serious note (for the rest of us as DoW is in deep **** already) the comment is grossly unfair to the many dedicated instructors at CATC - of whom I am aquainted with a few. Yes they're a happy smiling bunch during the formatives because, generally speaking they genuinely like most of you as people and future colleagues. However when it comes to the summative exercises they cannot afford to let personal feelings interfere. If Bloggs (or DoW for that matter) is a great bloke but is crap at the job then they shouldn't get through the course - simple as that.

From what I've seen and heard of 'the new CATC' compared to when I passed through its hallowed portals many moons ago it is a much changed place. Certainly the courses are vastly better than the irrelevant crap that I did. How many of you have done nav plotting since you were at CATC? I exclude the LATCC ATCO-riche who may use it on their yachts :)
The 6 weekers and newly posted-in Students I find to be generally of a pretty high calibre. I for one am happy with the standard (but don't tell anyone that of course!) I would reiterate the comments about attitude though. Get a name for yourself as an **** in this business and it sticks so take note DoW.


------------------

[halo]

I agree with U granny. I was at CATC in the not too recent past and I always found the instructors to be extremely professional in their conduct at all times. And Granny is right DoW, in that if U start flinging mud at people then a career in ATC will be extremely short indeed. Passing satirical comment on aspects of ATC when U R at the college is never a good career move. Save it until you have a certificate of competence that will help you to save your job when your colleagues take a strong dislike to you. U will find this to be even more important when U get posted to a unit. Watches at a unit tend to be very close and there are also very strong inter-watch links, so if you are moaning about somebody on one then it will more than likely get back to the other. People take great exception to this and training often becomes very short followed by a rapid deployment to colder parts!!

Oh, and the other thing DoW. I gather from your posts that U really have no idea who Checker is and what he does. Well, let me put you in the picture. Checker normally works for the people who own the airport, and in my experience they are the most switched on people on the entire airport. They are also not good people to **** off by calling them gits. Runway inspections are not there just to annoy controllers, they do have a purpose!!!

[Gonzo]

Hello Halo!!!

Have to agree with you about how fast rumours and gossip travel!

And I think at least some of the runway inspections at Seaton were in for annoyance<g>, although I tended to use the standard phraseology of 'Ops 3, hit the grass!!!!!!'. Just like virtually every Approach Radar exercise you'd get a Partenavia or Islander come in off the airways chugging along at a GS of 40kts. He'd be the first a/c you'd talk to after 'clocks on', and still outside 4DME 40-odd minutes later at 'clocks off'.......ahhhh, the memories!

Undoubtedly the best thing about the college, though, was a plate of sausages and chips for 60p!!!!

Gonzo

[tower power]

Halo and Gonzo, yep you are both right rumours do travel around the units and the whole company like wildfire. As we all well know, Gonzo and the easterlies desk ;)

DoW better watch it me thinks.

And checker is great i love him (sometimes her)

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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!

[Bright-Ling]

Granny Smith.....

...you're right - The Dog had best watch his six before the "Backstabbers" really get to him.

Why don't people learn that you have just got to keep your gob shut for 12/18 months, get out of the college and validate BEFORE you get too clever.

The cynics might say that the Topic here was demonstrated BY Dog. Perhaps Dog should have a little bit more respect for those who can Immediately alter his career. Also, they will know somebody where you get posted!

Like it or not, this job is all about getting on with your colleagues and your face fitting. Dog; so far I'd call it Played One, Lost One.

Still, only thirty-odd years until you retire!

P.S. Granny, would Sunny South be nr Parley Cross??? (Or is that just your 'spies'?)

[tower power]

Oh how i miss that famous phrase, "clocks off" wish i could do it now.

I prefered the breakfast at college at around 10.30. Lovely, much better than the BAA canteen.

[Gonzo]

Tower Power...

<As we all well know, Gonzo and the easterlies desk>

Me and the easterlies desk? I was nowhere near it!

Gonz

[granny smith]

bright-ling

My location is a closely guarded secret (and 'sunny south' covers a multitude of sins however, I do have spies everywhere! :) In actual fact who or where we are is pretty irrelevant (except for DoW of course). Obviously half the fun of this sort of thing is trying to work out who it is you're speaking to - you never know, maybe 'Bill Semple' IS Bill Semple. On second thoughts that's unlikely as this one seems to have a sense of humour! :)

cheers

ps anyone tell me how I attach one of those really funny (sic) signature things?

[Bright-Ling]

Granny......

you're right - it adds to the fun not knowing if Bill Semple is the real thing or not! (Me thinks not in this instance!)

I wasn't playing detective, just having some fun!

BTW, you're right - DoW is the only person who should be scared. When will people ever learn!

Cheers

[Vlad the Impaler]

Well, to throw in my two penneth for what it's worth. I am also on the next 6 week OJT just got to battle my way through mind numbing LVP's first. Remember those numbers ! I was speaking to one of the instructors on the sims today and he was saying how most of them hate summatives as they have to turn from friendlies into "Judge and executioner" but I guess it has to be done. Personally, although I probably want to go area I can't wait to get out there and see how it really works without that "pause clocks" safety net and as far as I am aware all my colleagues share my enthusiasm. As for the standard of students I don't see anybody getting an easy ride in fact having just lost 7 on the cross runway phase including three very marginals I would suggest the opposite is true. Within the environment at CATC the instructors do their best for us, I am sure none of them want to see us fail, and in return we do the same. The proof of the pudding etc. will be apparent by christmas. Let us know if this bunch of "Six weekers" was up to scratch, Cheers Vlad

[This message has been edited by Vlad the Impaler (edited 25 August 2000).]

[Vlad the Impaler]

Dog on Wheels,
I know EXACTLY who you are, looked back through your other postings and recognised a conversation !

[halo]

The question I have to ask myself is do we really care who you are?? *laughs*.

[Bright-Ling]

Halo....Here here!!

I don't know. This has been a very funny thread - watching people drop themselves in it and then try and dig their way out.

Very entertaining! Come on studes, keep it going!

[This message has been edited by Bright-Ling (edited 27 August 2000).]

[granny smith]

Very wise old Chinaman say...

...when find self in deep hole smelling of doo doo ...stop digging!

[250 kts]

Let's hope this isn't going to be the way that these people act when they come for live training . We've all seen this before - the inability to put their hands up and say "I f****d up".

[Magnetron]

Generic statements about 6 w""kers are very unfair to the people involved.some are very inteligent , highly qualified people,However they should not have been placed in the position of having to try to qualify for a profession for which they are totaly unsuitable.The selection procedure seems to ignore any interest in,or knowedge of, aviation in general,Recent Questions include "Is that a 747,it seems to have 4 engines"." Why can't I launch him immediatly behind the ATP"( EA145 ) they both have two engines"

[Bright-Ling]

Dog, didn't realise ALL your posts have gone.

Bad show old chap.

[identnospeed]

CATC instructors : Highly professional IMHO.

The college system is very different from the units.At TC you get 2 or 3 mentors throughout your training. This gives you a chance to develop a working relationship more easily than at the college.

Advice to U/Ts : show some enthusiasm, because when you reach the inevitable learning plateau during your 300+ hours of training it is this that will get you some "slack" from your mentors. I have seen many trainees who had the talent to make it, but when the going got tough they didn't appear to be motivated enough. A 100 hour radar check-out that is borderline, can be revcovered with a good oral check-out.

Read the books, look keen, ask questions ................ and do the watch scoop-athons !

INS

[PPRuNe Radar]

Now now ladies !!

Some of this thread has got a little difficult to follow since many posts have been edited or removed so removing the references which are needed to see the sides of the argument.

For starters, Granny Smith, the 'back stabbing bastards' quote did NOT originate from Dog on Wheels. He was quoting a previous post from another PPRuNer which was subsequently edited. Now you can say that he perhaps needs to tidy up his quotation skills so we are all clear who has said what, but to put over veiled threats which imply that the CATC instructors would find him and get him is totally unprofessional and indeed does the guys at CATC a great diservice. All you did was start a feeding frenzy by other PPRuNers on a misquoted individual, who no doubt felt threatened and hence has effectively withdrawn from PPRuNe.

So, for all here on PPRuNe, as in RT, think before you transmit please. Danny's lawyers have more than enough business to cope with without getting into intimidation, slander, and other such things.

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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[Bright-Ling]

PPRuNe Radar.....

...I agree with waht you have said, and now feel (slightly) sorry for DoW's.

However, should you not develop a way of not allowing people to either delete their posts or edit them after a set period of time - or after when a subsequent post is made. The edit facility is excellent, but most people use it within a few minutes of posting, do they not??? (Probably for typing or grammatic errors).

This might end the confusion and prevents 'poor' people getting the blame.

Just a thought. What do you think ?

[OrsonCart]

I may seem daft, but is this serious about the talent shown by our cadets.

When I was a lad, all I ever wanted to be was an ATCO and not a pilot. Money was never an issue. If recruits think that this career is an easy ride, it must come as one hell of a shock to them when they go 'live'.

So who is recruiting them and just what are they being told prior to taking this 'career for life' job. Is this the only way we can recruit, offer good salaries, but omit to tell the story called reality. Would the stress of a massive increase in workload year on year distract those being lured by money?

I still love the job, but the job is begining to take its toll on me!

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[This message has been edited by OrsonCart (edited 02 September 2000).]

[Watch Man]

OK pigeons here comes the cat.

I've recently finished a tour teaching at the RAF Central Air Traffic Control School.

If you are still reading after the last sentence then you will find out that during the 4 years I was there I was asked to give a presentation to CATC on the way we have separate ground instructors and radar instructors and the benefits therein. During the battle/presentation I mentioned that the quality of student we get has been declining over the 4 years I served at Shawbury and that we get either failed pilots or NATS rejects. I was surprised by the audience reaction to hear that the CATC instructors thought that they were getting the RAFs rejects.

Official or Unofficial, like it or not, There is a perception among many instructors, both military and civil, that the quality of raw student has declined.

To counter this perception at CATCS I had to incorporate into the existing lessons much of the background knowledge that we previously expected the candidate to know through their interest in aviation.

We even initiated a half-day visit to the museum at Cosford so that we could point out the various relevant bits of a jet. (While not on the syllabus it was interesting to note that many of these young RAF Officers couldn't tell a Spitfire from a Hurricane!)

Many more people seem to get through our (RAF) course with the help of extra training. In some cases, people have been taught to pass the course exercises rather than had their natural talent developed and consequently they struggle when they go live. (after only 14 and a half weeks of ATC training!!)

[get'em to heaven & back]

Divergance from thread on "standard of trainees".

Agree with identnospeed (previous thread)- enthusiasm on the part of the u/t should be almost a pre-requisite. However there is a limit to what they should have to do to demonstrate their keenness. Several of my acquaintances are aware of dubious, verging on illegal practices surrounding 6-weekers. CATC are also aware but seem to have turned a blind eye. Unwilling to go into detail, I wonder if any ex 6-weekers would care to comment on their experiences, or maybe some of the fully valid among you have first hand experience. And if you are a CATC person who has an inkling of what I might be talking about, why do you not address the issue?

[granny smith]

Radar

whooaa there dobbin! methinks I'm being a flamed unfairly here.

If you look back at my posts - I've just done so myself - you'll see that I have been supportive of both instructors and students at CATC. Yes I know DoW didn't originate the "back stabbing bastards" comment however unlike Tower Power he or she identified themselves as a student ATCO and agreed with the comment. It is difficult to tell that now as both seem to have taken the easy way out and have either removed or changed their postings (perhaps there should be a time limit on this facility?). If you feel strongly enough to post why not have the courage to stand by your words?

I disagree completely that I 'put over veiled threats ... etc' That is simply not true. However quite seriously there are instructors at CATC who were very pissed off at that comment - bad enough if it came from a (somewhat arrogant) valid ATCO but the fact that it came from a Student was highly offensive. I would not seriously suggest that any CATC instructor would try to fail anyone because of what they've said on PPRuNe - sorry this just ain't that important! For a start the system, as it has been explained to me, would not allow it as there are far too many checks within it to avoid that very possibility.

You'll note that no-one disagreed with my comments that DoW should wind his/her neck in.

Now if DoW has gone off in the huff then I'm sorry BUT maybe they (and other Student ATCOs reading but not posting) will have learned a thing or two. Come back Dog all is forgiven. We seem to have lost the point here - this thread has been very funny and enjoyable - it's only when people have taken it too seriously that we've gone slightly awry. C'mon this is ATC - if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined! :)

[PPRuNe Radar]

Granny Smith,

I agree with some of what you say, I think most of us here on PPRuNe would fully support the CATC guys and defend them against any unjust accusations from people who are somewhere in the CATC system

However I, and one or two others who e-mailed me, did detect a threatening tone in one of your posts, namely:

Dog on Wheels

my spies in the 'college of knowledge' tell me that the "back-stabbing bastards" comment went down a treat with the instructors! I just hope they don't find out who you are cos I get the feeling your ATC career may be short but interesting

on a more serious note (for the rest of us as DoW is in deep **** already)

Now this may have been in jest, but the implication is that something would happen to make DoW's career short, that is a hollow threat as we all know, but to someone early in their career who does not necessarily have experience in the ways of the world of ATC yet, it could be read in a more sinister vein to that which you originally intended.

I am happy that points have been made to clarify what you really meant, and draw a line under this part of the debate. I'm sure the students here have learnt a salutory lesson as well.


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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[x-border]

Watch Man...

I found your post interesting. Your comment that many of the students were lacking 'much of the background knowledge that we previously expected the candidate to know through their interest in aviation' is flawed. The Military Course has always been based on the premis that it will be assumed that students have no background knowledge and will be trained to a suitable standard to continue live training in the field. I also question why you expect a new entrant to know the difference between a spitfire and hurricane - do you also experct them to know the difference betwwen an AR1 and AR15 ?

Having been involved in live training for many years, I wonder if some of the perception that the standard of student is dropping is a trainers perception, and the standard has not dropped as much (if at all) as believed. As trainers get more experienced, or have been longer in a particular field of training (i.e. towards the end of your 4 year stint at CATCS), then their expectations of a new student often (unfairly) rise. I'm not knocking you when I say this, or questioning your professionalism, but its a fact thats been commented on many times.

Do you have any stats that show that the number of new (i.e. not ex-assistant) students who pass the course first time are falling which would back up your comments ?

[Bright-Ling]

Well that's that then.

Granny, glad to hear that your 'spies' have kept you so well informed!

However, why hasn't anyone replied to my comments (and Granny's) regarding the edit/deleting facility? Shouldn't posts only be deleted (or edited after a set time) with the moderator's consent only?

I really think that this is the answer.

I totally agree with everything said by Granny. She (just a guess!) makes a very good point that Dog may not have written the first slagging off post, but he DID agree with what was written.

Some of the nastiest controllers I have met, and don't like working with, are those that won't stick by their comments or admit an error.

Oh dear, were back to "Standard of Students Coming through again!!"

Thankyou, and goodnight.

[Packem Inn]

...meanwhile, back to the subject......some 5 years ago, the then Chancellor of CATC suggested to GATCO that there were no problems with the revised training scheme for Cadets. Although GATCO quoted an accountable 70% failure rate - at the College - the Chancellor disputed this. Mr P-W apparently indicated that he considered Cadets who were 're-treaded' and were succesful 2nd time around, were still part of the original training intake and thus proved a better success rate.

Of course, GATCO suggested that had the Course lengths not been shortened to expedite larger numbers through, whilst accepting a higher failure rate, then the success rate might have been significantly higher anyway. Mr P-W was therefore right in his assertion that a longer training period might benefit some Cadets.

There was some correspondence between CATC and GATCO at the time - perhaps someone from GATCO could dig it out and remind us. I believe GATCO also took the matter up with heads of CAA and NATS.

Obviously, the problem continues. At one time NATS seemed to be looking for a 'cloning' assessment to find the right candidates at the start. They seemed to belive that if you could clone ATCOS a much better success rate might be achieved. Looks like we still haven't found the answer, then.

But, is it selection, or initial training that is the problem ?

The question of OJTI, especially at the busier Units (TC,ER and Admes) also needs addressing, because many Trainees do not seem to have a full grasp of what they have let themselves in for. 200+ hours of OJTI simply is not sustainable when you have limited staffing already at your Unit. Plus, many OJTIs are becoming increasingly frustrated at lack of recognition for their skills in bringing these 'youngsters' to 'adulthood'.

[get'em to heaven & back]

I agree with pakem, the level of student hasn't really changed, it's just a perception which appears to form when a bit of a duffer pitches up.
There is also the point about not feeling rewarded for putting your licence on the line for someone else's benefit, a point which hopefully our brothers in the union are trying to sort out.

[cleared2land 27left]

I dont think that any instructor at CATC would be so unprofessional to fail a student due to what they ahve said on PPRune. And anyway is this not a annonymous forum??

On the subject of background knowlegde before you join the industry, at the interview stage you are told that being a spotter is not a requirement of the job. However when you are at CATC you are expected to build up your general knowledge of aviation.

But I do ask all the valid controllers who slate new trainees for not having the enthusiasm or background knowledge that they think is needed:
1- Did you have the same level of both when you went to your first posting?
2- And also would you not be one of a group who would laugh at a new trainee who claims to be a spotter?

And finally (i know i have went on a bit) what granny smith said "C'mon this is ATC - if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined" is so true. Maybe we all need to remind ourselves about that!

[Dog On Wheels]

Ok.

If I'm not going to get flamed here again, I would like to hazard these points.

First, I removed my post because it seemed to be offending people. If it did, I apologise sincerely.

Second, I admit it was the wrong comment to quote for the same reason. Although I changed the word 'bastards' to 'so & so's' because I felt it was in poor taste, I should have taken more time deciding what to say before I hit 'Submit'. As it was, I accept that it might not have been taken in the humour that was intended. It was also the wrong quote to make my point, and that is my fault alone.

However I do stand by what I meant, even if it was badly put across - that the instructors DO change between the formative and summative phases. This is a ***Good Thing*** (are we clear on that?). The instructors apply the standards rigidly at the summatives and put aside all the banter and friendliness during the exercises (in fact, normally they say nothing), although they revert to friendly mentor mode afterwards. And when it comes to marking, again, the standards are rigidly applied. I don't think anyone could reasonably suggest that they should do otherwise, so I was miffed to see that I was accused of suggesting just that! See comments above about young, impressionable SATC's and the effects of perceived threats to their careers http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif . I perhaps made my point badly, but I still don't think the response was justified. But enough of that, eh? Please accept the above with the sincerity intended.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic (gosh, there was a topic??)...

I can only speak for myself, although I'm sure my colleagues would agree, that in terms of our attitude to OJT, we are massively looking forward to it and have every intention of giving a good account of ourselves. I don't think anyone thinks of it as a holiday, as was suggested.

As far as a/c knowledge goes, I would say ours is pretty reasonable as everyone had to put in great effort to achieve the standards required in the verbal examinations, and consequently the general interest in aviation is high. Whether NATS should be recruiting 'spotters' or not is a question I'll leave to the philosophers.

However I would humbly suggest that aircraft knowledge can be learned, whilst aptitude is a different kettle of fish. I came to this job with a little bit of aviation knowledge (call me a spotter and I'll clean your clock, matey! ;) ) but the fact is that many of my colleagues, who perhaps knew little about aviation before joining, will be better controllers than I ever will.

Is aptitude not the defining quality recruiters should be looking for, albeit with a willingness to learn about airyplanes?


[This message has been edited by Dog On Wheels (edited 05 September 2000).]

[PPRuNe Radar]

Bright-Ling,

Captain PPRuNe is away at the moment. I'll raise the issue of editing posts on his return. My suspicion is that the software is probably not capable of this, but you never know.

Now.....on with the debate ;)

------------------
PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[Bright-Ling]

Good heavens - so many points:

PPruNe radar: Thanks

Dog on Wheels: Well done - not an easy post to write!

Cleared to Land 27 Left: You don't need to be a spotter. I take the **ss out of spotters, but if anyone tried the same with me BECAUSE I know an ATC Worthy fact about an aircraft type they would get a right mouthful! You don't need to be a spotter, but I personally believe a general interest in aviation is so very important and a pre-requisite for the application form. You don't need to know too much, as CATC has A/C Characteristics Lesson's in the syllabus. (And there is a very good self-study CBT).

It is all about professional pride.

Anyway, good luck to the next generation of 6 weekers. If anyone comes to us, see ya then!

[identnospeed]

My issue is not with U/Ts who have a low base knowledge of aviation, ATC and related subjects, but with those who make no effort to improve it.

After validation there is no need to convince anyone of ones motivation, but I would suggest that it is beneficial to a trainee to at least SHOW some enthusiasm.
Mentors are human, and if they feel that they are training someone who isn't bothered, it becomes a 2-way street very quickly !
Those who have supreme natural ability and never experience any problems in training are the only exceptions ...... and exceptions they most certainly are !

INS

[shack]

Nothing really changes.
I shall probably put the cat amongst the pigeons with this but in the early 60s when I was a mentor at Heathrow we received the first of the Cadets i.e. 1, 2 and then 3 course (in those days the cadets spent, as I remember, three years training and did both Area and Airfield) and the consensus after the first year amongst the mentors was that the standard of the Cadets was much lower than the direct entry people from the Services and that the big problem was going to be in the future when they became the management of ATC. I think that that opinion has now been proved correct. It was those who couldn’t hang up their headsets quickly enough and get to desk jobs that are now your bosses—nuf said.

[cleared2land 27left]

Bright: I do not discount the need for having knowledge of particular a/c types. I myself have this. But what annoys me is that some mentors will really poke fun if you say something which could be classed as "spotter knowledge". I myself enjoy aviation but i do not write down the numbers of any a/c that i see.

Enthusiasm (i think thats how you spell it) is a real must as you correctly stated.

[Bright-Ling]

Cleared....

I think that we are singing from the same hymn sheet here!

I too like aviation, but have never been and will never be a spotter! (ain't that right Silent Handover!!!!!)

At the end of the day, it is, as I said, professional pride. Every day I see people ask questions or say something to a pilot that makes me cringe. Not because they have made a controlling error per se (we all do that) but because it is concerning something they should know about an aircraft type.

My tip to any trainees is to find out as much as you can about the aircraft that you may end up working with. Have a good all-round knowledge but know lots about your base a/c, particularly their limitations.

Knowing little innoculous things will help you save face and IF it all goes wrong, may even help you one day.

[halo]

I stand by both of you on this one. I too am not a "spotter", but I have a professional interest in aviation and the number of times that a seemingly trivial piece of aircraft related knowledge has saved my bacon are great in number. I too sing from the same hymn sheet!!

[2 sheds]

Shack's account of ATC training in the 1960's speaks for itself. The arrogant, prejudiced attitude typified by his comment was rife in the ATC service at that time. There were some very sound types, but also a high proportion who could not grasp that given appropriate training, people with varied backgrounds and experience could become perfectly successful controllers.
Hardly surprising that a direct-entry ATCO with ten years military experience in ATC or aircrew was probably quicker off the mark than some of the early cadets after only one year of a three-year cadetship - he is not comparing like with like.
However, with appropriate training and experience, I doubt if there is anything to choose between the two, and that is the point - appropriate training - something that many of the mentors of that period were not very good at.
If we deserve the bosses of today, what did Shack and his contemporaries do to deserve some of the stuffed-shirted clots of the 60's, whose only skill in ATC was to fire a Very pistol?

[shack]

Well it sounds like I rattled 2 sheds cage, had he read my comments carefully he would have seen that I said “after the first year”—“ that the standard of the Cadets was much lower than the direct entry people from the Services and that the big problem was going to be in the future when they became the management of ATC.” I did not say that the eventual standard of the “working” controller was going to be any different, regardless of the method of entry. I tried to make my point in the last sentence, that it was those who could not hang up their headsets and get away from the heat quickly enough who are today’s bosses. Could you dispute that the standard of leadership is nil, the lack of decision-making is pitiful and if the comments made on the forum about strike action are correct so is the morale. I can only go on what I hear from people who are still working and what I read on the forum, happily I retired from LATCC ten years ago.

I do agree about the stuffed-shirted clots of the 60’s though, a great example was my final oral board at Hurn, when because I turned up in jacket and slacks the chairman’s last remark was “do the Board the courtesy of wearing a suit next time you appear” to which I replied that I though it was an oral examination not a sartorial one. Strangely I passed.