Standard of students coming through!!
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Standard of students coming through!!
with all the recent threads about upcoming test days ....and how DO you become an ATCO, has anyone else noticed a distinct drop in the standard of student being put forward through the system?.At this unit we have a constant flow of six weekers and the unanimous opinion of the OJTI's is that a lot of them seem to treat the whole experience as a bit of a holiday!! When I went through ,it was three courses a year and the guys seemed very motivated ....p'raps I am just turning into an old git but things seemed to be treated more seriously a few years ago!!!
I am NOT having a pop at the college here ,but what is going on with the initial interviews ????
I am NOT having a pop at the college here ,but what is going on with the initial interviews ????
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OJTI, I agree.
It seems that no-one is interested in the job anymore, just the money (Yes yes yes I know it is important!) - But, hey, come on.
Ironically, when I got to the College I felt quite proud of myself, having gone through all the interviews/tests etc. When I had heard how many hundreds get turned away for a course I was soooooo chauffed it was untrue.
Then, I met the course F***wits!!! What a bunch of clowns 3 of them were. How on Earth they got through an interview I'll never know. Two could hardly speak!!
It completely took away any feeling of personal achievement.
Fortunately, those brave (!) chaps and chapesses from CATC chopped them, but only when the clowns really screwed up repeatedly!
Some people are being pushed through again and again and again, until they pass.
Inevitably, this becomes a training problem at the units who have to spend time training and then, if brave enough, to chop them.
As OJTI says, it is not so much the CATC instructors (though some remain apallingly out of touch) but the Recruitment system. (Particularly the muppet in charge). Are we really that short to lower standards as OJTI suggests?!?!?!?!?
Still, I suppose three COMPLETE wasters out of 36 is quite a good average really!!!
[This message has been edited by Bright-Ling (edited 23 August 2000).]
It seems that no-one is interested in the job anymore, just the money (Yes yes yes I know it is important!) - But, hey, come on.
Ironically, when I got to the College I felt quite proud of myself, having gone through all the interviews/tests etc. When I had heard how many hundreds get turned away for a course I was soooooo chauffed it was untrue.
Then, I met the course F***wits!!! What a bunch of clowns 3 of them were. How on Earth they got through an interview I'll never know. Two could hardly speak!!
It completely took away any feeling of personal achievement.
Fortunately, those brave (!) chaps and chapesses from CATC chopped them, but only when the clowns really screwed up repeatedly!
Some people are being pushed through again and again and again, until they pass.
Inevitably, this becomes a training problem at the units who have to spend time training and then, if brave enough, to chop them.
As OJTI says, it is not so much the CATC instructors (though some remain apallingly out of touch) but the Recruitment system. (Particularly the muppet in charge). Are we really that short to lower standards as OJTI suggests?!?!?!?!?
Still, I suppose three COMPLETE wasters out of 36 is quite a good average really!!!
[This message has been edited by Bright-Ling (edited 23 August 2000).]
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Hang on....
That is a bit harsh, yes i know that a 6 week stint is a bit of a holiday but how about the actual students who appear at your unit for their final posting?? I would think that they have a little more motivation.
And as for the college repetedly pushing people through until they pass, that was not the case when i was there! I left the college in 1999. Luckily i got through the college without a fail but i know many people who did fail and were a little unfairly treated.
Perhaps if the college treated students a little better then they may take the whole system a little more seriously!
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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!
[This message has been edited by tower power (edited 25 August 2000).]
That is a bit harsh, yes i know that a 6 week stint is a bit of a holiday but how about the actual students who appear at your unit for their final posting?? I would think that they have a little more motivation.
And as for the college repetedly pushing people through until they pass, that was not the case when i was there! I left the college in 1999. Luckily i got through the college without a fail but i know many people who did fail and were a little unfairly treated.
Perhaps if the college treated students a little better then they may take the whole system a little more seriously!
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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!
[This message has been edited by tower power (edited 25 August 2000).]
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here here,
I was at a small unit for my 6 weeks OJT and i took it seriously but i know that some others on my course did not. Surprisingly those who did not show much interest in the OJT became area controllers so i think that removes the alleged problem. Tower Power you must have been on the same course as me, or were all the courses like that!
I was at a small unit for my 6 weeks OJT and i took it seriously but i know that some others on my course did not. Surprisingly those who did not show much interest in the OJT became area controllers so i think that removes the alleged problem. Tower Power you must have been on the same course as me, or were all the courses like that!
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tower power ...of course the guys who turn up on their postings are motivated ....this is when you start to really see what life is about .....I am referring to the guys who think "sod it I am never going to see an aeroplane again why should I make an effort?" " six weeks from now I am back in Bournemouth so who gives a toss?!" the guys who spend a hell of a lot of time patiently going grey watching raw recruits are getting rightly hacked off with this sort of attitude !!.
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Whilst agreeing in principle with the apparent lower standard of student these days, and the lack of interest in aviation these days, from the area view-point I feel sorry for those on their six-week "holiday". To a newcomer at a place like LATCC it must be a totally over-whelming experience. It is an enormous warren with vast numbers of people milling about apparently at random. If the trainee gets any attention at all, it is a very unstructured "training experience", and can do no more than instill in the "victim" just how complicated the job appears to be. It should be better than this but, with the vast numbers "passing through" (never to be seen again in most cases), and the pressures on the operational staff due to NTT/OCT/ECT/staff shortages/travel days/et al, there is just nobody available to give these folks the break that they (at least the better ones) deserve.
My advice is, despite the pressure at the interview to deny being an aviation person, "come out of the closet" when you get to a real ATC environment. If you show a genuine interest in aviation you will find both ATCOs and ATSAs generally will do their best to encourage and educate you within the constraints that time and NATS management(?) will allow.
Good luck to you all - my early retirement depends on you validating !!!
My advice is, despite the pressure at the interview to deny being an aviation person, "come out of the closet" when you get to a real ATC environment. If you show a genuine interest in aviation you will find both ATCOs and ATSAs generally will do their best to encourage and educate you within the constraints that time and NATS management(?) will allow.
Good luck to you all - my early retirement depends on you validating !!!
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I was lucky - I went to an airport on OJT where I was very well treated and learned a lot from my six weeks. In fact I'll tell you where - Birmingham
However, it's not easy to stay motivated when the more disgruntled members of the ATCO community continue to slag off CATC. More than once have I been told (not particularly on Aerodrome OJT) that the only thing CATC was good for was to teach RT discipline and the rest was worth forgetting - even then you get laughed off the face of the earth the first time you say "one Tousand" :-)
I do agree though that some people go to OJT thinking that just because they hold a student licence that they are the mutts nuts. I think students should be reminded before going on OJT that they are still a loooooong way from becoming a valid controller. And maybe if OJTI's were rewarded more they would once again become tolerant, caring mentors to us poor chaps and chappesses learning our trade.
However, it's not easy to stay motivated when the more disgruntled members of the ATCO community continue to slag off CATC. More than once have I been told (not particularly on Aerodrome OJT) that the only thing CATC was good for was to teach RT discipline and the rest was worth forgetting - even then you get laughed off the face of the earth the first time you say "one Tousand" :-)
I do agree though that some people go to OJT thinking that just because they hold a student licence that they are the mutts nuts. I think students should be reminded before going on OJT that they are still a loooooong way from becoming a valid controller. And maybe if OJTI's were rewarded more they would once again become tolerant, caring mentors to us poor chaps and chappesses learning our trade.
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I was also lucky to have a good OJT. I went to a smaller airport but this was much to my advantage. I could get in and do something and even passed a 50 hour check.
It does seem that those outside CATC do slag it off, especially once you have left.
And also, tolerant + caring those are the first 2 words that spring to mind when describing a mentor.
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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!
It does seem that those outside CATC do slag it off, especially once you have left.
And also, tolerant + caring those are the first 2 words that spring to mind when describing a mentor.
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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!
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OJT-aye et al
sorry I can't sit here and read this bolloks without commenting
Whilst it is perfectly true that the demographics of the student ATCO population have changed greatly over the last 10 - 15 years it is totally wrong to damn the majority of SATCs just because a few don't take the job seriously enough. In addition, those of you who slag of CATC and the instructors there should go for a look sometime. There are very few dinosaurs left and even the area side is attracting some new blood. These people are recently operational ATCOs and know what it is like in the field at the moment. Remember the majority of these instructors want to go back operational after their CATC tour is up.
What the SATC posters say is true. During the formative exercises instructors are normal human beings (or as close as any ATCO can be to normal!) but when it matters in the summative phases they take great pride in their professional integrity by not passing those who do not come up to standard. CATC is the first line of defence for the operational OJTIs. Unfortunately the system post-RGAT is far from perfect and some idiots do still escape their villages to make it out to the units. No system can be 100% water-tight.
I firmly believe that the 'finished product'that CATC produces is of a consistently high standard and these young people deserve to be given all help that you as operational ATCOs can provide. Be honest with yourselves - what were you really like when you left CATC? I doubt if you were very much different from the SATCs of today.
There, I'll climb down of my high horse now but it's a long way down!!
sorry I can't sit here and read this bolloks without commenting
Whilst it is perfectly true that the demographics of the student ATCO population have changed greatly over the last 10 - 15 years it is totally wrong to damn the majority of SATCs just because a few don't take the job seriously enough. In addition, those of you who slag of CATC and the instructors there should go for a look sometime. There are very few dinosaurs left and even the area side is attracting some new blood. These people are recently operational ATCOs and know what it is like in the field at the moment. Remember the majority of these instructors want to go back operational after their CATC tour is up.
What the SATC posters say is true. During the formative exercises instructors are normal human beings (or as close as any ATCO can be to normal!) but when it matters in the summative phases they take great pride in their professional integrity by not passing those who do not come up to standard. CATC is the first line of defence for the operational OJTIs. Unfortunately the system post-RGAT is far from perfect and some idiots do still escape their villages to make it out to the units. No system can be 100% water-tight.
I firmly believe that the 'finished product'that CATC produces is of a consistently high standard and these young people deserve to be given all help that you as operational ATCOs can provide. Be honest with yourselves - what were you really like when you left CATC? I doubt if you were very much different from the SATCs of today.
There, I'll climb down of my high horse now but it's a long way down!!
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just to add my tuppence worth- I think the standard of 6-weeker probably hasn't changed that much recently, same old mix of reasonable and "have you actually done an aerodrome course?" however surely it's incumbent on the ojtis to try and draw maximum effort from their charges and actually earn the extra money they would like to see for this extra responsibility (here's hoping it actually materialises). those at catc have a very difficult task, teaching complete novices, so give them credit for gettting the ball rolling at all with some of these people. glad to see egbb getting praise as an ojt spot- any others worthy of mention? good or bad? if a unit has a bad rep it should be sorted out, bad ojti-ing can leave permanent scars that just won't go away within the time-scale up to the first summative on the subsequent course. good luck to all those on or going on ojt shortly. keep the rest of us informed as to what you make of the 6-week experience.
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A warning to any students going on their 6 week OJT - DO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY! Not too long ago a student came to us and left having got a good amount of RT time in which was of a good standard for his level of experience, but as he managed to wind almost all of the ATCOs up with his attitude, both in work and outside, when we were asked if would would like to have this individual back, the answer was a resounding NO .
How you behave on your six weeks can affect your whole career - think about that!
.How you behave on your six weeks can affect your whole career - think about that!
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Yes i agree that the 6 week stint can effect your whole career, someone off a previous course was borderline in a check. When his personnel file was looked at the unit manager said "your attitude to the 6 week OJT course was not very good" and this was one of a few reasons as to why he got the chop.
Your attitude can effect you throughout your training from catc to the initial posting. SO watch what you do and what you say!
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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!
Your attitude can effect you throughout your training from catc to the initial posting. SO watch what you do and what you say!
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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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I think generalising is a little too harsh. There are varying standards of people at all levels in ATC.
Certainly the 6 weekers I've met recently during my occasional forays in the Ops Room have been a good bunch, very amiable, and at the standard you would expect for their stage of training. They also buy the Watch beer at the end of their time so they can't all be bad All we need is the Drinkathon date from our current young lady confirmed and she'll pass the final test.
The worrying thing is that none of them can keep up with us old hands when it comes to quaffing drink in the pub though ........ what are the youth of today coming to ??
Down in Bournemouth next week, so watch out young 'uns, there's a PPRuNer about !!
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10 West
UK ATC'er
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Certainly the 6 weekers I've met recently during my occasional forays in the Ops Room have been a good bunch, very amiable, and at the standard you would expect for their stage of training. They also buy the Watch beer at the end of their time so they can't all be bad
All we need is the Drinkathon date from our current young lady confirmed and she'll pass the final test.The worrying thing is that none of them can keep up with us old hands when it comes to quaffing drink in the pub though ........ what are the youth of today coming to ??
Down in Bournemouth next week, so watch out young 'uns, there's a PPRuNer about !!
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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
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Dog on Wheels
my spies in the 'college of knowledge' tell me that the "back-stabbing bastards" comment went down a treat with the instructors! I just hope they don't find out who you are cos I get the feeling your ATC career may be short but interesting
on a more serious note (for the rest of us as DoW is in deep **** already) the comment is grossly unfair to the many dedicated instructors at CATC - of whom I am aquainted with a few. Yes they're a happy smiling bunch during the formatives because, generally speaking they genuinely like most of you as people and future colleagues. However when it comes to the summative exercises they cannot afford to let personal feelings interfere. If Bloggs (or DoW for that matter) is a great bloke but is crap at the job then they shouldn't get through the course - simple as that.
From what I've seen and heard of 'the new CATC' compared to when I passed through its hallowed portals many moons ago it is a much changed place. Certainly the courses are vastly better than the irrelevant crap that I did. How many of you have done nav plotting since you were at CATC? I exclude the LATCC ATCO-riche who may use it on their yachts
The 6 weekers and newly posted-in Students I find to be generally of a pretty high calibre. I for one am happy with the standard (but don't tell anyone that of course!) I would reiterate the comments about attitude though. Get a name for yourself as an **** in this business and it sticks so take note DoW.
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my spies in the 'college of knowledge' tell me that the "back-stabbing bastards" comment went down a treat with the instructors! I just hope they don't find out who you are cos I get the feeling your ATC career may be short but interesting
on a more serious note (for the rest of us as DoW is in deep **** already) the comment is grossly unfair to the many dedicated instructors at CATC - of whom I am aquainted with a few. Yes they're a happy smiling bunch during the formatives because, generally speaking they genuinely like most of you as people and future colleagues. However when it comes to the summative exercises they cannot afford to let personal feelings interfere. If Bloggs (or DoW for that matter) is a great bloke but is crap at the job then they shouldn't get through the course - simple as that.
From what I've seen and heard of 'the new CATC' compared to when I passed through its hallowed portals many moons ago it is a much changed place. Certainly the courses are vastly better than the irrelevant crap that I did. How many of you have done nav plotting since you were at CATC? I exclude the LATCC ATCO-riche who may use it on their yachts
The 6 weekers and newly posted-in Students I find to be generally of a pretty high calibre. I for one am happy with the standard (but don't tell anyone that of course!) I would reiterate the comments about attitude though. Get a name for yourself as an **** in this business and it sticks so take note DoW.
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I agree with U granny. I was at CATC in the not too recent past and I always found the instructors to be extremely professional in their conduct at all times. And Granny is right DoW, in that if U start flinging mud at people then a career in ATC will be extremely short indeed. Passing satirical comment on aspects of ATC when U R at the college is never a good career move. Save it until you have a certificate of competence that will help you to save your job when your colleagues take a strong dislike to you. U will find this to be even more important when U get posted to a unit. Watches at a unit tend to be very close and there are also very strong inter-watch links, so if you are moaning about somebody on one then it will more than likely get back to the other. People take great exception to this and training often becomes very short followed by a rapid deployment to colder parts!!
Oh, and the other thing DoW. I gather from your posts that U really have no idea who Checker is and what he does. Well, let me put you in the picture. Checker normally works for the people who own the airport, and in my experience they are the most switched on people on the entire airport. They are also not good people to **** off by calling them gits. Runway inspections are not there just to annoy controllers, they do have a purpose!!!
Oh, and the other thing DoW. I gather from your posts that U really have no idea who Checker is and what he does. Well, let me put you in the picture. Checker normally works for the people who own the airport, and in my experience they are the most switched on people on the entire airport. They are also not good people to **** off by calling them gits. Runway inspections are not there just to annoy controllers, they do have a purpose!!!
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Hello Halo!!!
Have to agree with you about how fast rumours and gossip travel!
And I think at least some of the runway inspections at Seaton were in for annoyance<g>, although I tended to use the standard phraseology of 'Ops 3, hit the grass!!!!!!'. Just like virtually every Approach Radar exercise you'd get a Partenavia or Islander come in off the airways chugging along at a GS of 40kts. He'd be the first a/c you'd talk to after 'clocks on', and still outside 4DME 40-odd minutes later at 'clocks off'.......ahhhh, the memories!
Undoubtedly the best thing about the college, though, was a plate of sausages and chips for 60p!!!!
Gonzo
Have to agree with you about how fast rumours and gossip travel!
And I think at least some of the runway inspections at Seaton were in for annoyance<g>, although I tended to use the standard phraseology of 'Ops 3, hit the grass!!!!!!'. Just like virtually every Approach Radar exercise you'd get a Partenavia or Islander come in off the airways chugging along at a GS of 40kts. He'd be the first a/c you'd talk to after 'clocks on', and still outside 4DME 40-odd minutes later at 'clocks off'.......ahhhh, the memories!
Undoubtedly the best thing about the college, though, was a plate of sausages and chips for 60p!!!!
Gonzo
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Halo and Gonzo, yep you are both right rumours do travel around the units and the whole company like wildfire. As we all well know, Gonzo and the easterlies desk
DoW better watch it me thinks.
And checker is great i love him (sometimes her)
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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!
DoW better watch it me thinks.
And checker is great i love him (sometimes her)
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ATCOs do it at the top of buildings!