Manch. transfer to Scottish

[Air.Farce.1]

Just wondering how many staff are actually planning to move North to EGPX from Manch. in 2008/09, assuming NPC is open........

Will most go south or elsewhere ?

:confused:

[bagpuss lives]

In summary.....

Many going or gone already to NavCanada including a good few very experienced and highly valued ATCOs.

The rest of us were told last week, almost as directly as this, that the choice is to either go to Scotland - or resign. Simple really and not much opportunity to go south then or now, as those that have tried or are trying to transfer out, will tell you.

There are a few souls around who will go wherever the company sees fit, some begrudgingly - some readily, but not many at all.

So as for how many staff are actually planning for a move up north I'd say not a lot, in truth.

[Minesapint]

What pains me is that it all seems to be for the sake of politics. It makes no business sense at all to force a group of people to live in Scotland. Scotland for me is a nice place - to visit. If I was forced to move there I would resign - no question!

Worse than that the original plan was to transfer MACC to Swanwick - makes a lot more sense to almost everyone except NATS 'management'.

[Air.Farce.1]

Good luck to you folks anyway at Manch. and all the best in the future.

cheers

:rolleyes:

[bagpuss lives]

I think the attitudes of the higher management echelons within NATS don't exactly lend themselves to winning hearts and minds over the matter either. All this "you're with us or you're out" bravado doesn't seem to take into account the dreadful situation some staff are in over the move - with wives and families completely unable or wholly unwilling to move.

One wonders what say the French controllers would do in such a situation........

[Jerricho]

Many going or gone already to NavCanada

Keep hearing this word many. Just how many and to where?

[ILS 119.5]

I've heard that many of the ATCO's at Manchester are retraining in other disciplines, such as tradesmen, Don't know if this is true, but they now can earn the same salary as an electrician, plumber etc. rather than move to Scotland with wife and family settled. What do you think?

[bagpuss lives]

3 more good chaps off to Canada early next year and about 8 or 9 more making an initial visit at around the same time I believe, in the hope that NC might unfreeze this unofficial ban I've heard about.

Not sure how many have gone already. I can think off the top of my head of about 5 or 6 I think......

ILS 119.5

I know of only one - certainly not the "many" you suggest :)

And I think with a lot of people, salary isn't really coming into the equation.

[BALIX]

I've got every sympathy with your plight as if I were based at Manchester, I would certainly prefer a move south than one up here. Even better would be staying put.

However, one thing puzzles me about the much emphasized moves to Canada - why, if uprooting a couple of hundred miles north to do the same job with some shiny new equipment is such an upheval, are people moving 3-6000 miles to learn a completely different way of doing things? Much more of an upheval, surely? Could it just be an excuse and those people would have moved to Canada anyway?

[Jerricho]

What sort of things have people back in Blighty heard about/from those that have taken the plunge and moved over here?

[DirtyPierre]

Question. Why is it so bad to move from Manch. (I take this is Manchester) to Scotland?

For an Aussie this equates with moving from Cairns to Townsville. Work function still the same. In Oz, we've had similar consolidation of ATC units, and it's generally move or take VR (voluntary redundancy).

Sorry. but you guys sound just a tiny bit whingy here.

[Jerricho]

DP, you're probably going to get some interesting responses to this. It's not quite as simple as a move from Cairns or Townsville to Bris-vegas, as they're still in the same state in the same country (Infact, if I lived in Townsville, I'd be happy to move to Brisbane ;) ).

Prestwick isn't exactly a thriving metropolis, especially when compared to Manchester. And there have been stories (truth to them=???, I'll leave that to those more in the know) of English families who have moved there and haven't exactly been welcomed by the locals (I heard one story of a controller's kid who had the crap beaten out of him on a bus).

The reason I ask what reports are getting back to NATS guys and gals about Canada is that having made the move (Ok, it's my second ;) ), that it is a major event. Here in the 'Peg winter is really starting to hit (just looking at the METAR and it's MINUS 29 C, and including windchill it MINUS 36!!!). Edmonton is 1 above freezing with wind gusts up to 35 kts. There are some major domestic issues (bank accounts, credit history for a motgage, car insurance, drivers licencing) that can cause some minor headaches. Then there's the issue of training (not quite from scratch, but it is different), as well as starting from the bottom of the pile again (the seniority system can take a bit of getting used to). Nav Can are also begining to move towards their new CAATS system (similar to NERC), so depending upon when people arrive, they may train on the current system and find themselves retraining on new kit in the not too distant future.

Don't get me wrong, the money is good, the lifestyle is great (aside from the mozzies in summer), and the locals are very friendly and supportive (the manager of the school here in Winnipeg is a very switched on guy). And I'm going to have my first white Christmas ever (no BBQ though, eh DP). I'm just interested in what has filtered back from other sources.

[AyrTC]

I have been trying to sit on the sidelines of this however I must feel I should put in my tuppence worth.

First of all I wish to ignore the way HR have handled th move.I am sorry what has come about but Manch you are moving to Prestwick get used to it!!!

I am a Scot married to an English girl ( oh the shame JOKE!!! ) and I have several English ATC friends.

I had no affinity with Prestwick ( I wanted to go to Gatwick for my posting twenty five years ago ) so it was a bit of a shock for me when I got a posting to th Centre.

I have heard kids getting "beaten "up for being tall/small/left handed/left footed :confused: etc just because your kid is English does not make him/her special.

As in everywhere else ( Manch ,Aus,Canada) it all comes down to Location,Location ,Location.There are some very nice big houses in "rundown areas" and if you are stupid enough/naive enough to buy a property in one of them well look out.

As for nightlife well I do not get out much being a family man but some of the "kids" on the watch seem to have a reasonable social life in Prestwick and there is always Glasgow up the road.

For pastimes for the kids there are football,hockey,basketball,rugby,karate,judo,swimming,
gymnastics.taekwando,dancing,ballet and two cricket clubs!!!

I have had one move in my ATC career and where I went made
Prestwick seem like a metropolis.If you come to Prestwick with an open mind I think you will be presently surprised.

Be warned the local Ayrshire accent is a bit broad ( it is not corrupt English its origins are "Auld Scots" ) so your'e child wille become bi-lingual : playground speak and home speak:p

It will not be a bed of roses but most people will try and make you very welcome.

Rant/PR over

AyrTC

ps if any one from Manch wants to pm me about any Prestwick social/family questions feel free to do so.

[Gonzo]

White Christmas Jer? Does that mean you'll be making an appearance on Boscombe sea front sans clothes?:yuk:

[Jerricho]

Sure...........you paying the airfare? Gotta be warmer than here. :E

AyrTC, check your Pms.

[Scotsliveit]

I'm not acquainted with NATS management style yet so can't comment about how abrupt perhaps they have been.

I can though comment on Prestwick and Ayr. I live in Glasgow, I have lived in Manchester. I liked Manchester but I think Glasgow is a bigger, bustlier city where more goes on. I'm not just being bias as a Scot.

If the Manc controllers want the city life they won't be disappointed by Glasgow(second best place to shop in the UK after London)

As for Prestwick. I was on a date at Elliots in Prestwick last night. The place was jumping. Prestwick is an affluent town. Ayr is a nice town too. As I Glaswegian I find Ayrshire folk are a bit different generalism being they are quite parochial. (I was brought up in Ayrshire) But I find that when I'm in smaller towns in England (Bournemouth, Southampton etc)

I have colleagues at the moment who work with me in the city centre but choose to live down there(35 mins drive away). It's not that bad.

I know it must be hard to have change forced on you. Is that not sort of part of this job though.

[Mahaba]

Maybe to add a llitle bit more information to this thread or even to open a few eyes; Originally Manch were told they were going south. Then not...eventually. At our meeting with our illustrious new leader we were informed that Manch was going north, no arguments...ok
We were also however told that as he was aware of the multitude of problems this caused staff he would endeavour in any ways possible to lessen the impact of the closure. This being to help staff if they wanted to re-locate or even leave the company." To give them as much assistance in making their choices and offering as much help and assistance with the result of those decisions" Bloody nice chap.
To throw a spanner into the works then..
Firstly, our decision is to relocate to a southern centre...sorry chaps-either move north or leave the company.
Secondly(and the most ridiculous), EGCC will in the next few months issue a VN for VCR/APPROACH ATCO's. I believe it may be for 5 of them. I know of an ATCO on a certain pink watch at MACC who until recently was valid on VCR/APP and AREA. An OJTI on all three and I think an LCE also. Because of the new hours required in each of the positions, she/he signed over the competency for TWR/APP. She/he has applied in writing to return to the undermanned TWR/APP side of MACC. No response. I believe the new VN will state that AREA ATCOs are ineligible to apply. Probably the old chestnut of 'can't be released'. So an ATCO with an established family and lots of current experience who has trained most of the young TWR/APP ATCO's on pink watch will be leaving us to join a non NATS unit ( I believe a promising approach(!) has been made to one already) in order to keep family together (who can't move out of the country).
Is this helping staff and assisting them in their choices? Is this not absolutely non-sensical?

It is this very 'non-helpful, non-flexible' attitude that is exasperating us. Unbelievable.
Apologies to she/he for speaking out of turn but we used to all watch out for each other here. Sorry to be losing you.

[Jerricho]

I see nobody has mentioned "mobile grade" yet.

[bagpuss lives]

To do so would just miss the point completely Jerr..

[Jerricho]

Agreed. I just remember last time this topic came up, it was mentioned.

[DC10RealMan]

Why should the personnel at Manchester be any different to other NATS employees who have been forced to move to another part of the country/or a different country against their will?. I have little sympathy with my colleagues at Manchester despite the provocative stance displayed my management.

[bagpuss lives]

So which other NATS staff have, en masse, been forced to completely up sticks and move to another country then?

Allow me to state that personally, I will be going to Scotland as I like my job too much.

[DC10RealMan]

At some stage in their careers most NATS staff have had to move to another part of the UNITED KINGDOM in furtherance of their careers. There was a time prior to its closure that the only way to move staff from Manchester was with the use of dynamite, now they are submitting motions to conference about the lack of mobility. You have all had a plum posting and high standard of living for a very long time and I have little or no sympathy with your plight.

[bagpuss lives]

Has such a large group of NATS staff and their families had to move all at the same time, to another country before?

[Captain Windsock]

Well a number of years ago I was based at Aberdeen. Not a problem you might think but as an Englishman with a English family I found my wife was abused and my children discrimenated against. Even I found it hard to try and be at one with the locals. I have every sympathy with any English controller being posted to Scotland. Hard times ahead. Good luck.

[DC10RealMan]

Whats all this malarky about another country?. We are all part of the United Kingdom. Ayrshire is as rural as parts of Cheshire or Lancashire. Cheshire is nothing like Central and South London where I lived for twenty years. We all moved from West Drayton to Swanwick with all the domestic upheaval and provocation from management that you are experiencing now. The actual location does not matter and the staff at Manchester are using it as a smokescreen. Some of your colleagues do not want to go to another country like Scotland, so they go to Canada!!!! Whats all that about!!!!

In reply to Captain Windsocks experience I was abused for being a Northerner and living in "Sarf London". Thats life!

[Lock n' Load]

Strange that those who regard themselves as English rather than British, and who talk about England whether they actually mean England or really mean the United Kingdom, seem to have a harder time adjusting to life in Scotland...

Even in Canada, I get the p*ss taken out of me by English controllers for being Scottish, and they seem to think it's hilarious (here's a newsflash - it isn't). When the shoe is on the other foot, it appears some people can't take it. Face up to facts - a move from Manch to Prestwick is no more of an uprooting than a move to Swaniwck. Your money goes further for housing than in Manch or Cheshire, your kids get into what most people regard as a better education system, there's less crime than in Manchester and you even get live near an airport from where the south of England is an hour's flight away. Oh, the hardship.

[Jerricho]

Could somebody tell me whether it was always on the cards to have Thames Radar/Special move into TC........who will be moving to the south coast in the not to distant future. Just curious.

[BEXIL160]

Yes I can.

Yes It was.

Rgds BEX

[Jerricho]

Thanks Bex. You considered public speaking in your spare time ;)

[Shermanator]

Nice one jerricho!

LACC/TC , here's a plan, we're gonna move you all from Nelson Mandela estate, Trigger and the Nag's Head, to a much nicer location, a mere what...80..85 miles from where you were before, nowhere near the M25 carpark, on the coast, lovely place to bring the kids up, and if the wife doesn't want to move, then its commutable, and if she does the extra banding pay and London weighting will pay towards the small difference in housing costs.

Now then MACC, here's what happens to you....

NO TRANSFERS OUT whatsoever, apart form VNs, but if the VNs for ADC/APC then forget it (even if you are valid, or just need a quick LCE)

No Area people COUNTRYWIDE can do APC courses, but hey, tell ya what, lets get those ADC/APC lads n lasses on some AREA courses, because that's fair.

We'll build a brand new centre for ScACC and MACC 400 yards from the old ScaCC but 6 hours up the motorway from MACC.
Sounds good eh?

Well, those MACC lads and lasses can get nice big houses here for half the cash of Cheshire prices (cos we all live in Cheshire), theres no crime in Glasgow or Scotland is there, (anybody see Shallow Grave??, never mind Trainspotting or Taggart) so thats better for them too.

The educational system is far better up there too lads, and to make it more appealing half the qualifications that were valid in England aren't in Scotland (Law degrees, teachers etc)

Hey and as a sweetener, that £800 a day retraining we paid all the NERC controllers which saw them bank a few quid to soften the blow of the horrendous move, we'll get rid of that as best we can.

As for the poor fella who had the pXss taken out of him for being a northerner in London, I can see how that must have been just as upsetting as the lad whose wife and kids got in the neck in Aberdeen. Genius, a perfect comparision. I'd rather be a northerner in London, than a southerner (almost as commonplace as Australians!)some of my best friends are southerners, i'd say it to their faces!

And we'll also move the Manchester watch pattern around when the move happens, cos we don't to trouble the poor souls already at ScaCC by moving theirs. Don't wanna rock the boat, baby.

My mate at TC says that the best job in NATS is Thames or Luton APC cos they sit there reading their BAND5 pay slips, doing the crosswords, laughing while the others all get battered 24/7 with planes.

That's livin' alright.........I love this company!

...we're on brink of bankruptcy one minute, the next we can afford more plasma TVs than Comet in the CTC (bet no restrooms have one), stupid boarding cards, and an NPC webcam, whatever next? Answers on a postcard.

[Gonzo]

Jer,

I seem to remember a watch meeting not a few years ago where a certain manager denied that there were plans to move Thames/SVFR over to TC.

[Loki]

Shermanator:

So you`ll be resigning soon then?


Missing you already!

(someone who was posted from Scotland some years ago against his will)

[Fly Through]

For the controllers being forced to move north, whilst badly organised and unpopular, they will be able to cope. The disruption to spouse & kids is horrendous. Talk about straining a relationship! No wonder everyone is considering there options. The same crap happened here in Canada and they're still complaining some 6 years later (and it was only 3 hours away!). People used to slag Serco but it seems NATS are using them as a model to follow!!

By the way where are the union whilst this is happening? Isn't being forced North wholesale a significant change in terms & conditions?

DC10RealMan........your sympathy for your colleagues is truly heart warming, I bet you'll give them a lovely welcome too!!

[You what?]

I seem to remember a watch meeting not a few years ago where a certain manager denied that there were plans to move Thames/SVFR over to TC.

Is it just me or does anyone else think it was a bit fishy when the radar room at Heathrow VCR was flooded forcing the immediate relocation for Thames/SVFR to TC???!!;)

Slightly off topic I know, but was just wondering!

[Jerricho]

That's exactly what I was getting at Gonze and YW. My memory isn't as crap as I thought it was.

[Gonzo]

Can't seriously imagine anything fishy went on. At least not to do with the flood.........

[jabberwok]

It will be sad to see Manchester centre close. As one who, many years ago, visited Barton Hall, Preston (Northern ATCC at the time) I lamented its closure but at least it was only a move "down the road" for most folks. When Man SC folds it will be the end of an era..

Bloody good bunch of chaps and I thank you all for the humour and helpfulness over the years. I probably don't know any of you now (Rob Rayner and Harry Shepherd were my vintage) but I wish everyone well..

jb

[DangerousD]

Just to add a few thoughts.... all we at Manchester have ever wanted is for management to take seriously the REAL difficulties that a move to prestwick will have on a number of controllers lives, if we were all single and had no ties then i dont believe the move would hold as many worries for us. I know we all signed on the dotted line to be a mobile grade (otherwise we wouldn't have made it passed the initial interview!!) well if we are truely mobile why wont management even consider any moves to other units within nats for controllers who have a genuine and compeling case not to go to npc?? I can totally understand the advantages of a two centre strategy but the folk up here would be much happier if it appeared that the company were showing the slightest sympathy and made us feel that we are part of the future vision or destinations of NATS. These are all thoughts that must have been felt by many controllers who have faced a forced posting but i really dont see how our plight compares equally with a move from west drayton to swanwick. If you remember the relocation map that was up by the canteen then draw the same semi circle around Prestwick. I know there is some absolutely beautiful countryside in Ayreshire and for some here at Manchester that is a big attraction, but the options for houses, schools, social attractions and job options for partners are severely restricted compared to either Manchester, West Drayton or Swanwick. The overall picture for many is that this move will result in a standard of living considerably less than we have now.(i can just see DC10realman's response in my head already- what with the housing in Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Cheshire in general being soooo cheap)

to pick up on a few points, the fact that Northerners/Scots have felt victimised down south doesnt mean that it is just deserts if i or my family have to put up with it in the future, racial abuse is completely out of order no matter who is on the receiving end. Also people have questioned why people who dont want to move to prestwick think its ok to go to canada, and the simple answer is that for most area valid controllers this is the only other option available to them and if they have to move why not take a chance a lifetime to move Canada, and who knows the prospect of gaining permission to move on to the usa in a few years. Of those to have already made the move non have so far expressed any regrets, although only one has been through a winter out there!!
At the end of day we are very aware that there is hardly any sympathy (thanks DC10realman-nice to feel part of the same team) throughout nats for us and most here are just getting on with trying to sort their own futures out. Rant over

[BEXIL160]

For Jerircho et al ref Thames / SVFR..

Yep, there probably were certain people running around telling all and sundry "No change Folks, you're staying here!" :rolleyes:

This is kinda in the same vein as "Our Air is not for Sale". I'm sure you'll remember just how reassuring that was.

Meanwhile, across the road (M4) the tube was ready and waiting since 1993 (when the 2/4 room opened).

As for the "convienient" flood, yeah I was VERY sceptical too.

Rgds BEX

[tired-flyboy]

Guys

your all bleating on about how maddening it is to have to move north.

Here's a thought - why do all trainees have to move south?

To get into this job - some of us have had to move our families south to a more expensive area - for less money etc.

If your moving north you'll sell your house - make a killing and more than likely be able to afford a bigger nicer house in some of the more affluent areas in ayrshire.

If you don't like that use the money to put your kids into Private school to keep them away from all the local ruffians etc.

The company is to blame not the people of Scotland - so give it a rest and stop whinging about how hard you are done by.

:ok:

Shermanator

I believe that the Scottish educational qualification in teaching is acceptable in England (my ex is a teacher [its also good for USA/ Canada etc] ) and the law degree is also the same it's just that the law itself is different - bit like Area and Tower ratings (both ATC but slightly different)

Rant over!

[DangerousD]

just for tired-flyboy.......

not all trainees end up down south and by no means do the majority give up better paid jobs to do this one, and even those that do run the risk of not even making it out of the college so always know the risks involved in applying for this job.

the other topics have already been covered in previous threads but to point it out again for , it actually costs the same and in a high portion of cases more money to buy a similar house in the more affluent areas of ayreshire (and remember that it's offers over in scotland and on premium properties this often runs to an extra 20%), and before you bleat on about the expensive hampshire house prices, if you visit the land registry site for average house prices, yes there is a differance but any extra is more than addequately covered by the band 5 pay scales.

With regard to schooling, looking on the 'up my street' web site as advocated by management within 30 miles of prestwick only one public school had results over 50% although there was 1 private school that managed to reach 75%,(5 or more gcse's at grades a-c)
also i believe the problem regarding teachers and lawyers is that the english qualification is not suitable for Scotland and not the other way round. rant over(again)

oh and p.s. i have never mentioned that there has ever been an issue with scottish people, it has always been about the companyand this mishandled issue.

[tired-flyboy]

Actually - all trainees do end up down south - the place is called the College of ATC and its in a little place called Bournemouth (the only NATS college if i'm correct) so yes all trainees do have to move south.

After the college is a different matter - but the premise is the same.

Ah the risks of the job mobile grade....

I stand corrected on the schooling and for that i apologise, but that in mind - somebody mentioned that it doesn't matter if your kid is english, welsh, irish or whatever...kids get bullied and that is a sad fact of life.

you may not have mentioned the problem with Scots, but it has been a subliminal dig running through this entire thread!

Lets agree to disagree.....fair dinkum

:ok:

[Shermanator]

Think the boy dangerous has covered the more salient points in the qualification problem, it may well be the case, Tired Fly Boy, that a scottish teaching or legal qualification works in England, but not the other way around, which is kind of the point.

Not much point in harping on about having to move your families south for less money to get into the job, you must have been well aware that you were going to earn less when you took the job, that the college was in Bournemouth, and lots of people get sent to NERC.

I have no axe to grind with Scotland or Scottish people, I like the place and am a big fan of Ally McCoist and thought Cracker was quite good. We all hold the Fatcats at the top responsible for the mishandling, and would love to see the CTC get relocated to Prestwick too, strange how that was never an option.

And to add to the fun, apparently we're taking another sector (no.7) off LACC next year. If we had regular enough flights we could fly down on our days off and wash all their cars too, and tuck them into bed after a hard afternoon shift.

I like being band 4 now, its good for the banter, but would love to see TC made band 6, now that would be worth watching.

Dink dank doo!

[Jerricho]

Ah the risks of the job mobile grade....

See, it just took a little longer this time.

[Shermanator]

careful jerricho, or i'll steal your registration plates again!!

not to mention wipers!!

[Jerricho]

Sure thing Mr C. You get to Canada very often?

[Shermanator]

When i've saved enough hard earned wedge, i'll come and hunt you down, am thinking of doing an ex-NATS employee tour of canadia. Could take a long time at this rate....

All the best for Christmas, old pal

[DC10RealMan]

I believe that either General Patton or General Curtis Le May who said quote " In the dictionary you will find the word sympathy between s**t and syphilis. Clearly this is Mr Alstoms new role model.

[chiglet]

Ok Peeps,
This actually happened within the last 28 days....A [very well] Qualified ATSA3 at Manch applies for "similar" job at SCATCC.....
No Interview........Appeals........Then gets one, Flight to Glasgow, Hire car and Hotel [in the Prestwick area] Did he get the job?
From what he said [not rumour, fact The "Opportunities" of an ATSA job are [a] ACPO {if lucky} [b] nil
Still want to go north?
watp,iktch

[DC10RealMan]

I can beat that. A number of years ago I applied for a post at Manchester. I attended the interview, got a grilling, received a letter of rejection with a postmark timed before my interview. It is not unique.

[Vampy]

Just thought I would post my 2p's worth. From reading this thread and countless others before it, the most obvious thing that sticks out is the sheer rigidity (spelling? :confused: ) and narrow mindedness of NATS management. Did they seriously think that if they told 120+ staff that themselves and all their families would have to uproot and move to Prestwick, the staff would all just go like lemmings without a murmur of dissatisfaction?

By the same token however, all this bleating on about being moved to another country is stretching it a bit far in my humble opinion. The last time I checked we were part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland & Wales) and Northern Ireland. ie we're all part of the same place. Certainly my passport is a British one not an English one. Likewise my wife's is a British passport not a Scottish one. Yes a couple of things are done a bit differently north of the border. The law is a bit different for all the english solicitors out there. But is a conversion course not out of the question? GCSEs and A-Levels have a different name and to be honest judging by the way the English school system is going, I think I will prefer my kids to do Standard Grades and Highers anyway. They also have (heaven forbid!!) different pictures on their banknotes!! What would have happened if everyone who is currently at Manchester had been posted to Prestwick to begin with instead? Would they have stamped their feet and refused to have gone then? Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......hate to play at devils advocate but we all signed the piece of paper when we signed up. I wonder how many of you refused to sign that before you joined NATS? I'd take a guess at none......

Having said all that, to all the Swanwick people with little or no sympathy with your Manchester COLLEAGUES, you guys have had it extremely easy by comparison. Don't try and kid anyone that if the shoe was on the other foot you lot would happily go 250 miles north. We all know you wouldn't. And yes we all know you had to move from west drayton to swanwick, a distance of what? 80miles give or take? I bet a healthy proportion (by healthy I would say 25-30%) of you didn't have to move house, have spouses and partners move jobs, move kids from school etc etc. Certainly not the 100% of staff who are affected by Manchester's move to Prestwick..........

Basically to sum up, NATS management are playing within the rules. However, they are doing NOTHING for employer/employee relations at all. And although Manchester are certainly being isolated by the rest of their ATCO brethren around NATSworld, if I was an ATCO at Cardiff or Farnborough or Prestwick or wherever, I would be very concerned about the way management have narrow mindedly set about shutting down Manchester. Id be wondering 'if they can do this to the 3rd biggest unit without giving any concern or consideration to the staff involved, what could they do to my little unit if they wanted to........?'

[bagpuss lives]

I'm not calling you a liar. Well, perhaps I am. But surely if you have proof of said incident and said date on said envelope your friendly local PROSPEKT (sic) rep would be rather interested in it?

I'd just like to thank my colleagues Shermanator and DangerousD for putting many of the points over more eloquently than I ever could whilst waving into such unsymapthetic eyes. I agree with everything you've said and our other MACC colleagues have uttered on the subject too.

Merry Christmas to you both as well, nice work :ok:

AyrTC. You sound like a really nice chap and, when I evetually get up to Scotland I'll be sure to buy you a pint and some Uncle Joe's Mintballs. I assure you it really is nothing to do with Scottish folk or our colleagues at ScOACC.

[Loki]

Vampy:

You are absolutely right, we wouldn`t be happy about it. However I think most people would make the best of what is a poor situation....and I don`t think the comrades at Manchester are any different.

[Shermanator]

I thought Patton said you'll find Swanwick in the dictionary between Sh*t and syphilis.

Deepest sympathies you didn't get into MACC, would have been a real pleasure to have served with you.

We'll just do your sectors one by one for you instead, how's that sound?

Merry Christmas one and all!

How's that Band 6 promotion for TC coming along?

[bagpuss lives]

I hear we may be getting a sizeable part of Sector 5 too, after we get Sector 7 that is.......

[AyrTC]

Thank you very much Niteflite01 I'll have a pint of "Heavy" but you can forget the Uncle Joe's Mintballs I'm more a deep fried Mars Bar man :p

Merry Christmas to one and all

AyrTC

[ahhhb0ll0x]

posted 22nd December 2004 23:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"

By the same token however, all this bleating on about being moved to another country is stretching it a bit far in my humble opinion. The last time I checked we were part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland & Wales) and Northern Ireland. ie we're all part of the same place. Certainly my passport is a British one not an English one. Likewise my wife's is a British passport not a Scottish one. Yes a couple of things are done a bit differently north of the border. The law is a bit different for all the english solicitors out there. But is a conversion course not out of the question? GCSEs and A-Levels have a different name and to be honest judging by the way the English school system is going, I think I will prefer my kids to do Standard Grades and Highers anyway. They also have (heaven forbid!!) different pictures on their banknotes!! What would have happened if everyone who is currently at Manchester had been posted to Prestwick to begin with instead? Would they have stamped their feet and refused to have gone then? Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......hate to play at devils advocate but we all signed the piece of paper when we signed up. I wonder how many of you refused to sign that before you joined NATS? I'd take a guess at none......"



Excellent post Vamp, however you then go and spoil it with what follows...............................

"Having said all that, to all the Swanwick people with little or no sympathy with your Manchester COLLEAGUES, you guys have had it extremely easy by comparison. Don't try and kid anyone that if the shoe was on the other foot you lot would happily go 250 miles north. We all know you wouldn't. And yes we all know you had to move from west drayton to swanwick, a distance of what? 80miles give or take? I bet a healthy proportion (by healthy I would say 25-30%) of you didn't have to move house, have spouses and partners move jobs, move kids from school etc etc. Certainly not the 100% of staff who are affected by Manchester's move to Prestwick.........."


ermmmmmmmmm 25-30 per cent is well out, the majority had to move house(have you ever tried going down/up the M3 during rush hour, I agree some people didnt move (person preference) but the majority did, personally my other half gave up a lot with her employer to move, with a significant reduction in pay and terms, but hey it was worth it, and you are correct, it may only be 80 miles or so, but how many people do you know were transferred to West Drayton actually wanted to be posted there in the first place..................not many..................in my experiance and despite reservations , I really do think the move "south" did not have as an adverse an effect as many would believe( and no I'm certainly not from this part of Britain!!!!). I bet that in 2-4 years time the guys/girls at MACC with reservations about moving north , would not feel as resentful as they do.

Like you said "Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......"
Exactly...................................




One final issue, i'm still unsure why an ATCO at Farnborough or Cardiff shold be concerned about the "shutting down Manchester" (sensationalism at its best!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
How has it been shut down??????????????



Edited many a time due spelling/grammer.........but it is nearly Christmas and errrrrrrrrrrrrmm yes I've been drinking

[DirtyPierre]

Just a quick question.

If Manch. en-route airspace is to be done by Prestwick, or some sort of resectorisation between Prestwick and Swanwick, shouldn't NATS be doing some "change management" and have a proposal up for scrutiny in which the transition of airspace from one centre to the other centre/s occurrs? This should invovle consultation with the ATC union, NATS management, etc. Has this occurred?

I'm sorry if I should obtuse, but it appears that either your union hasn't been looking after you, or that MATS management have ridden rough shod over you and you need to do something about it.

BTW, Oz approach ATCs in Perth, Adelaide, and Sydney are looking at moving to Melbourne in the next few years. If you thought Manch. and Scotland were in separate countries, moving from Perth to Melbourne might be something similar.

[Vampy]

ahhhhhb0ll0x,

I stand corrected on the figure i quoted (very much a guesstimate on my part!) however the fact is (and you have confirmed it), if a healthy percentage of people had wanted to they could have stayed where they were and commuted (and some did). NO-ONE at Manchester has that choice, WITHOUT exception.

My point about the smaller NATS units was to show what kind of a beast NATS management is. ie, if they think so little of the 3rd biggest unit, how much regard will/do they have for the smaller units? I wasn't suggesting for a second they were going to close!!

One final thing, what difference does rush hour on the M3 make to ATCOs working shifts that start at 7am (or earlier) 2pm or 10pm? As relevant as the rush hour on the M62/M56/M6 up here for the guys at Manch? Notwithstanding the fact that the centre is slap bang in the middle of one of the Top 30 busiest airports in the world with all the passengers and therefore car traffic that that entails......

Merry Christmas all! :ok: :D

[Delta Five-Oh]

Dirty Pierre you said, " If you thought Manch. and Scotland were in separate countries, moving from Perth to Melbourne might be something similar". Manchester and Scotland are in separate countries! Perth and Melbourne aren't!

I may think that this move for Manch ATCOs is wrong (spouses jobs, childrens education etc may not survive the move), I have
a nagging thought regarding how much support ATCOs from Prestwick would be getting were the boot on the other foot.

As a Scotsman can I ask that you bring some decent aspiring young footballers please? Anyone in the vein of Stuart McCall, Andy Goram or McRooney would help the cause immensely:ok:

[Warped Factor]

Vampy,

If you can come up with a suitable and viable business case for having three ATC centres in the UK then I'm sure NATS management would love to hear from you.

Unfortunately I suspect the simple fact is that there isn't one. With projections in the future of reducing the number of centres in Europe from 30 down to 10 who knows what the future holds for the two centres that are left.

WF.

p.s. I assume top 30 means one of the top 30 wettest places in the world, it's certainly not passengers or movements (http://www.airports.org/cda/aci/display/main/aci_content.jsp?zn=aci&cp=1-5-54-57_9_25__) ;)

[Vampy]

Warped,

First of all, Smart Ar$e! ;) and once again i stand corrected. However, everyone seems to be missing my main point. I'm certain that business wise, the move makes perfect sense. My beef with the whole thing is the way its been handled. Management being wholly unsympathetic and heavy handed with the whole thing etc etc. Will be interesting to see what happens when the S7 sims need to be staffed by Manchester ATCOs in preparation for that sector moving north.............

Once again Merry Christmas all and hopefully a Happy 2005! :ok: :O

[Ayr-Rage]

"Will be interesting to see what happens when the S7 sims need to be staffed by Manchester ATCOs in preparation for that sector moving north............"

Probably the same as usual.

The ATCOs will whinge.
Management will offer inducements = cash
The ATCOs will roll over so management can tickle their tummies.

Just like the last few pay rounds, much dissent and absolutely no action taken.

Our powder is still dry, Ha f****** Ha !

Look forward to seeing you all in a few years time

[Minesapint]

We can have two centres. One in England with AC TC and MACC, TC and MACC as a signgle low/mid airspace organisation, have we looked at the airspace between TC & MACC lately?

The other in Scotland - abroad!

[Fidgell]

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Just one thing to say for now....

Ayr-Rage youre nowt but a loser son!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[prospero]

Fidgell
I can't see how he is a loser but I can see how he is right
Prospero
An ex Manchester controller who knew 6 years ago that we were closing so took contol of his life and left. No ostrich me....

[Delta Five-Oh]

Minesapint - exactly the kind of attitude that gives me nagging doubts about supporting any staff south of the border.

What goes around comes around, remember that:mad:

[Minesapint]

I don't work at MACC it just seems better for the staff (certainly the ones that I know to move south. Part of the problem here is pretty obvious from the last post. It seems almost like the MACC people need 'permission' of some kind to work at npc - from certain quarters.

npc is political, it makes no sense to even have two centres in the UK anyway. How would ScACC staff feel if they were all moved to Swanwick!

[ayrprox]

minesapint

i don't think anybody up here would disagree with you in the fact that we would be as annoyed as you are with an enforced move south of the border. You'd get the same arguments that have been raised previously here about kids schools, partners careers,family ties, big upheavals etc. We can't argue and we sympathise ( No really we do)
As someone who is from south of the border i can honestly say that i have not regretted the posting here one jot.the people have been very friendly the nightlife varied and colourful (and cheaper), the golf fantastic, you've got 2 great cities within a couple of hours (or if you live in glasgow 1 hour) travel so the leaving a bustling city argument is not a valid one.
my point here is that far from being a closetted environment all of you would be welcomed and help offered if required.

prospero makes a good point though. This has been coming for 6 years and it would seem that the lumbering giant that is our management are not likely to change their stratagy for two centres.prospero decided to leave and get on with his life (good for him) i know there have been rumours of some crappy gentlemans agreement which has prevented more of you from leaving (which i think the union should look at) to work at canada etc. but the time for slateing the npc move is over, its going to happen. live with it or resign and do something else that will make you happy coz this job obviously isnt at the moment

[Jerricho]

i know there have been rumours of some crappy gentlemans agreement which has prevented more of you from leaving (which i think the union should look at) to work at canada etc

Been brought up before, but the word here is that ALL interviews have been temporarily halted so Nav Canada can take stock of how succesful the "experienced controller" program has been regarding check out (validation) numbers and the actual training program being used in the centres. Training focus is also begining to focus on the new CAATS system (Canadaian version of NERC) which is supposed to be implemented in the not too distant future.

[DirtyPierre]

Manchester and Scotland are in separate countries! Perth and Melbourne aren't!

Oh please!!!!

You are a whinger!

Technically you might be correct, but it is really just part of the United Kingdom. It takes, what 6 hours, to drive from Manch. to Glasgow. That's how long it took me when I was there in 2000. You speak the same language, use the same currency, pay tax to the same government. Matee, I'd say you're drawing a long bow to keep harping about moving countries when travelling from Manch. to Prestwick.

Melb. to Perth is a 4 hour jet flight. Can't be driven in two days by a single driver. You can't pop across to Melb. for the weekend from Perth like you can drive up to Scotland for the weekend from Manchester.

I think your harping on the "it's in a different country" is petty and churlish. You miss the point. Any move will mean an upheaval for the controllers and their families. The move, if it is really necessary, should be done with the minium impact on the staff involved. What has been done here? And have you involved your union if you think that it could be done better?

[Lock n' Load]

DP, did you go via London??? Should be about a 3-hour drive from Manch to Glasgow. Manch to Swanwick, now THAT could be a 6-hour drive. Longer if you hit the M6 at rush hour...

To those who say that Scottish legal quals are accepted in England and not vice versa, not so. A law degree in Scotland (other than English Law which is available at Dundee Uni) and subsequent qualification is solely in Scots law. Having said that, there is a growing need for English solicitors in Scotland, and Scottish ones in England, and several major firms have offices in both countries. As for teachers, a PGCE is a PGCE is a PGCE, regardless of the country in which it was gained. Medical and dental quals are the same too, and though there are separate institutes of chartered accountancy, their qualifications are accepted by each other as equals.

[Stupendous Man]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Will be interesting to see what happens when the S7 sims need to be staffed by Manchester ATCOs in preparation for that sector moving north............"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not really to do with CC moving north, but how do NATS management justify moving what is in effect a band 5 sector to a band 4 unit? Did it suddenly just get quieter? Will the guys working S7 get Band 5 pay every half hour they plug in? Surely the union should be looking at this a lot closer. This isn't the first sector to move up from Swanwick.

[bagpuss lives]

And it won't be the last.

[Ali Bongo]

Surely the union should be looking at this a lot closer

Actually they haven't had the courtesy yet to even mention it to the Union at Manchester yet. The first the Union heard about it was in a watch briefing 2 days after an official meeting with management who "forgot" to bring it up.

As and when they tell the Union about it, yes I'm sure the Union will do something about it, but again as someone mentioned earlier it all depends on whether the members are prepared to put up and fight or will they simply walk away and accept it?

Given the mood at Manchester at the moment I think it is safe to assume that just about everyone is well up for a fight.:ok:

[Delta Five-Oh]

Dirty Pierre, think you've had too much of your weak lager pal - I'm in Scotland so I'm not moving anywhere. I'm fairly sympathetic to those moving north (with aforementioned reservations). Thanks for backing up the Oz stereotype though :-)
As for using the same currency, I've had my Scottish money refused many times in England. We have separate education, law and church. They may agree in many ways but the point is they are Scottish, not those of another country. As a Scot I wouldn't fancy living in England therefore it's easy for me to be sympathetic with those down south having to consider a move north. Yes we're supposedly mobile but as a previous poster mentioned if we'd indicated we weren't too keen on moving we wouldn't be in the job full stop. Area ATCOs don't tend to move around too much, and short staffing will continue to support a stable home life.
All I can say to the Manch guys is that Scotland and this particular part of Scotland is fairly welcoming. Prestwick may be small but it's full of "outsiders" (I'm one) and I'm sure after the initial upheaval many will agree it's not a bad move at all.
Disclaimer :
None of the above shall be construed as excusing both Management or Union, the former for initial action, the latter for lack of.

[Lock n' Load]

Delta - to say we have a different church is a bit of a stretch, as there is no established church in Scotland like there is in England (the Cof S having no bishops to sit in the House of Lords, but then with Blair's reforms there aren't any "Lords Eclesiastical" anymore). But for those rare ATCOs who do go to church on a regular basis and belong to the C of E, the Episcopal Church of Scotland follows exactly the same litergy and creed, and incidentally is older than the Church of Scotland (presbyterian).

As for having Scottish bank notes refused, I have had them eyed suspiciously many times in England, but NEVER refused as I stand my ground and point out the the bit on Scottish notes where it says "I promise to the pay the bearer on demand the sum of X pounds Sterling". On a purely legal note, Scottish banks do not issue "legal tender" - only the Bank of England can do that as it houses the government's gold reserves. Scottish banks issue promisory notes. They are however legal currency in England, Wales and NI.
Welcome to PPRUNE, your trivia website....

[DC10RealMan]

I have been accused of having no concern or sympathy with Manchester staff. Fair enough!, I cant argue with that. Yet all we hear about on this thread is the plight of the Manchester ATCOs and their imposed move to Prestwick at the company expense to do the job for which they are paid. Chiglet has mentioned on this thread about the plight of the Manchester ATSAs for the majority of whom there is no post at Prestwick and redundancy, voluntary or not is a most unwelcome possibility. There has been no concern, sympathy, or messages of support for their plight from any of the people posting on here including some of their own colleagues at Manchester. Once again all we see is the selfish, egotistical, petulant, and arrogant display which chracterises some members of the ATCO grade.

[DirtyPierre]

DP, did you go via London??? Should be about a 3-hour drive from Manch to Glasgow.

It was 1996, on "Black Friday" which is the start of the school holidays in September I think. 6 hours is a pretty long time for the trip, but the traffic was terrible, and I included a 1 hour stop as well.

Dirty Pierre, think you've had too much of your weak lager pal Negative matee! Quite sober when I did the drive and while I'm posting here. Besides, is our lager weaker than yours? I didn't think it was.

I've been told by our very own ex-pats here in Brissie that the Prestwick area is very nice, and there is even a pretty good golf course near the centre. Of course I don't know how good the local rugby team is, as the Sale rugby team (near Manchester) are pretty good and doing very nicely again this year.

[ayrprox]

not sure how royal troon would feel about being just pretty good :E

[DirtyPierre]

a pretty good golf course near the centre

Just trying to be ironic.

[Shermanator]

Just for DC10 alleged Real Man's pipe.

The thread is about MACC moving, ie all grades.

NERC was supposed to be ATSA free, never happened.

MACC is supposed to be too, can't see I happening.

We've all been overwhelmed by DC10s sympathy here at MACC, the ATCOs and ATSAs at MACC are a pretty tight bunch, we're all in it together, expect very little from our LACC brethren, and look forward to his transfer request one day being pulled out the bin.

Might I suggest that he and those with nothing useful to add to this thread, get back to NERC and concentrate on palming off their busy sectors to MACC, one by one, then continue to complain they dont get paid enough for doing less.

S7, S3, S4, and S5, bring em all on lads, dont want you poor babies working too hard in between early gos and late come ins.

TC have the honour of taking some airspace of LACC every year too.

As do ScaCC.

Old rope...money for

Hap hap happy New year, colleagues

[cranbournechase]

Shermanator

“..the ATCOs and ATSAs at MACC are a pretty tight bunch, we're all in it together..”

I am not sure that you really, truly are "in it together" as you put it. The ATCOs have jobs to go to - the ATSAs don't.

Sorry, but that's how it looks from down here.

[bagpuss lives]

I don't think anyone can say that "the ATSAs don't have jobs to go to" until everything is signed, sealed and perhaps more importantly, delivered.

The ATSAs have heard it all before with the move to LACC (aka the first ATSA-less environment. Yes. Of course it is).

I agree with Shermanator (Just for a change!). There is a real feeling of togetherness for those that will be left at MACC once the emigrations have ceased.

[cranbournechase]

Niteflite,

I sincerely hope that you are able to achieve a happy outcome to the situation. I think that we here at LL will eventually come under pressure jobwise once the new VCR is up and running. That's why we're watching CC developments closely. In order to keep our jobs here, we will have to argue the case for ATSA retention in advance of any move to oust us, and you will have to do that too if you want the maximum number of ATSA jobs in Scottish for those that are prepared to transfer North.

Finally, I would respectfully add/suggest that, when push finally comes to shove, you should not expect any official assistance from the ATCOs in order to save ATSA jobs. All ATSAs within NATS should know by now that we're on our own.

[bagpuss lives]

And how nice it is of your union (PCS) to violently oppose the, possibly job saving transferal of some basic ATCO duties to PCS grades once the push comes to shove.

[cranbournechase]

Not sure of what basic ATCO duties you refer to, but maybe PCS' standpoint is based in part on Prospect's point-blank refusal a couple of years ago to even consider the possibility of giving a basic ATCO duty at LL to the ATSA4 grade. This was backed up by a GATCO member stating in the LL VCR that "ATSAs will never do ATCO jobs here - the pilots expect a professional service"

Plenty of witnesses to this one!

[Air.Farce.1]

Thanks for all the interesting replies to my inital post >

"Manch. transfer to Scottish "

Happy New Year and good luck.

ps

Its only a posting to another unit, spare a thought for those less fortunate!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4136545.stm

[peatair]

A most interesting thread this one.

Interestingly, MACC has existed, in one form another, for 30 years come the end of January 2005 when the old Preston ATCC and the Preston Air Traffic Control Radar Unit closed. During that time it has actually grown from being a mere "Sub Centre" of West Drayton to a considerable operation extending into the Upper Airspace etc. It seems that MACC has been very useful to NATS as it has shifted various sectors around in order to assist with getting Swanwick on-line etc.

The idea of closing MACC and transferring its functions is certainly not new. Several years ago NATS came up with the TWO centre strategy. Technically, there could be just one for the whole UK but there is considerable force in the "don't have all your eggs in one basket" thinking. No doubt, the second centre has to be in Scotland for entirely political reasons. Such reasons are totally unconnected with the provision of ATC though it is interesting to note that some of the NATS Senior Management were Scottish at the time the 2 centre strategy evolved. However this may be, there is certainly no good business sense in maintaining 3 ACCs in the U.K. and it has to be recognised that the entire European strategy is to reduce considerably the number of ACCs from 40 odd to a mere handful.

With the greatest respect to some contributors, what has happened or will happen in Australia does not seem particularly relevant. The MACC staff are faced with either loss of jobs (which seems to apply to ATSAs mainly) or a transfer further north. Hopefully, there will be some ATSA jobs but without knowing the detail it is not possible to say. ATCO jobs appear to be OK.

The saddest thing to appear on this thread is the lack of interest being apparently shown by management in getting the staff more in favour of this major change in their lives. If this lack of interest is true then it is high time the NATS management woke up and addressed this issue properly. Also, it will not help the management cause if the MACC staff see this move as a "take-over" rather than a "merger." There is a world of difference between the two. Currently, the 2 ACCs do operate ATC rather differently and it is obvious that this needs to be addressed as part of the issue.

Similarly, the MACC staff are going to have to recognise the hard business / European reality and begin to positively address the move by getting properly involved and seeking to get the best out of this that they can.

Happy New Year - and I really hope that you can start to get this mess sorted!!

[Nogbad the Bad]

I certainly feel for you folks at MACC. I just hope that there are some there who can wave a cheery goodbye in the form of taking early retirement.

That'll show the b*ggers not to take their staff for granted - the very same staff that have DUG managament out of the various holes they have dug so deeply over the past years ! :*

And, it seems, that they are bringing in deep tunneling equipment to continue their on their merry way :rolleyes:

[tug3]

PTAir

"Technically, there could be just one for the whole UK but there is considerable force in the "don't have all your eggs in one basket" thinking. No doubt, the second centre has to be in Scotland for entirely political reasons. Such reasons are totally unconnected with the provision of ATC though it is interesting to note that some of the NATS Senior Management were Scottish at the time the 2 centre strategy evolved".

Why the hell shouldn't it be in Scotland?..it's got as much right to have an en-route centre as ANY other part of the UK, I say again UK, that you care to mention!

It's this type of "we're doing you lot a favour by letting you have one" attitiude that gets right up the noses of us living and working here.

It seems that for a good many contributors to this thread, Scotland is only a separate country when it suits!

Rgds

T3

[peatair]

Fair point tug3. There is no reason why Scotland should not have one of the 2 centres. I still hope that they can get this sorted out soon. Bad morale is not a good thing.