Atc Clearance At Leeds Bradford

[Mooncrest]

Noticed the last three days or so that flights at LBA can now call for their ATC clearance when they call for push and start, as opposed to having it issued during taxi. I understand this is just a trial run at the moment and I'm sure it's been tried before about five or six years ago. Anyway, it's a bit of a step forward but I'm wondering what's led to it being taken. Suggestions from the airlines, improved comms between the tower and MAN ATCC perhaps ??

I don't work in ATC but I'd be interested to know nonetheless.
Answers on a postcard please...
:ok:

[bagpuss lives]

Nothing's changed at our "end" as far as I'm aware :)

[ILS 119.5]

From what I have heard this is a trial. A few years ago this was suggested but rejected. The change has come about due to experienced ATCO's from other units joining the LBA team and making suggestions. It is also to do with the increase in flights and to try and reduce workload and co-ordination between tower and approach.

[Spitoon]

Ah, new blood. But it takes a while for new ideas to be accepted by the old timers (usually 'til they retire in my experience)!

[Evil J]

You're not kidding....

How many ATCO's does it take to change a light bulb.....?

[chiglet]

SATCO.... "That Lighbulb is non-op!"
Watch Manager.. "So it is"......thinx....."Tower Supervisor, there is a none functioning desk illuminating item there"
TWR Sup to long suffering ATCA [it's his lightbulb..."Call engineering, PDQ to fix said item"
ATCA applies his accumulated knowledge and "thumps" the offending item. Result...It works
Answer none , all you need is a good ATCA :ok:
watp,iktch

[almost professional]

Evil J-you implying us dinosuars can't take change?
you've still got four sim runs yet!

[Eggs Petition]

At some non-NATS units there can be a stick-in-the-mud attitude. This is because of a lower turnover of staff, I think. It can be surprising how some ATCOs are so fixed in their ways.

Clearances being passed to aircraft at the holding point creates unneccessary workload in the cockpit. Fair enough (& often neccessary) for an ammendment to be passed, i.e. "stop climb at..." but there is no justifiable reason for the SIDs not to be given on stand.

There is a TWR refurbishment about to take place and I understand that the new desk & comms gear will necessitate some changes to their ADC - APR coordination practices. This could well be part of that. Should make things easier on the flightdecks too!

This is not meant to sound too critical of ATC @ Leeds. I know that there are many professional & flexible ATCOs there. A few, however, could do with opening their eyes to the world outside the Peoples' Republic of Yorkshire!

;) ;) ;)

[Mooncrest]

Blimey, look what I started !

Just to veer ever so slightly off thread, the Tower frequency at LBA doesn't half get crowded at times so here's a brainwave from a non-ATC person. Allocate a discrete frequency for published busy times only purely for clearance delivery for all instrument and VFR traffic to be manned by an appropriately trained ATCA(gasp !). Takes some pressure off the Tower controller so he or she can concentrate on actual movements and would be cheaper than having a GMC position. Now, I know I'm probably being over-simplistic and demonstrating a lack of appreciation of the overall picture but it's just an idea. There, I've said it. Time to take cover. ;)

PS I would be more than happy to do the job. Just let me know !

PPS Chiglet. What on earth does watp,iktch mean ??

[Exospheric]

All european airports are in the process of implementing the "European Action Plan for the Prevention of Runway Incursions".

Recommendation 4.5.3 states "where practicable give ATC clearance prior to taxi".

LBA is just introducing what is soon to be universal practice.

[Scottie Dog]

On behalf of the poor Chiglet - who gets stuck when it comes to long words (hence the list of initials that look like some strange word that should have been spoken by a Vulcan - or some other inter-galatic species).

Originally he use to sign his messages with "We aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy". Now, with retirement around the corner, he finds it hard to spend so much time at the keyboard and needs to come up for air and can only manage the abbreviated version.

Sorry Chiglet - I presume that means no more drinking sessions, or that I now owe you double rations!!!

Scottie Dog

ps - a happy Christmas to you all and a Very prosperous New Year.

[chiglet]

Scottie,
Basket, Wishfull, No, Wrong, treble :ok:
We [realy] do aim to please, it [really does] keep the cleaners happy.
Merry Chrimbo Sue [the cleaner] and All The Best to my Many,many,ok any fans
Cheers xxxx "hic"

[bagpuss lives]

I haven't seen her around for a while. Have you scared her off chig? :D

If you ask me, and I realise you didn't, anyone who braves cleaning the 4th floor gents loos (pungencies and all) on a daily basis deserves not only us "aiming to please", but a bloody medal.

Quite what this has to do with ATC clearances at LBA is another matter. Sorry :)

[peatair]

Can't exactly remember when LBA introduced SIDs - probably 10 years ago?? Prior to that an individual clearance had to be obtained for most of their flights. MACC issued the clearance. With SIDs, this useful reform ought to have come in long ago.

It's probably only an internal LBA change to procedures since MACC hardly need to be involved. So long as the SID and "Squawk" and frequency are agreed with MACC then there really is no more to it.

[BookEm]

I`m a controller at Leeds and can confirm that the clearance on stand system is undergoing a trial until the end of the week when hopefully it will become permanent. Its already being stated that there is no good reason not to pass the SID before pushback and a Eurocontrol directive advises against passing clearances during the taxi to prevent runway incursions. As well as this we are instaling a new comms system that means the way we work needs to change by reducing the amount of co-ordination between tower and radar. Clearance on stand achieves this as under the old system tower would request the clearance, radar would ring Manchester and then pass the whole clearance to tower which would need to be read back exactly. This was then passed to the pilots. Under the new system tower simply requests a release from radar as the clearance has already being passed. The radar controller simply says released or passes an alternative clearance (eg stop climb at 3000ft). This significantly reduces intercom work and also is more helpful to the crews ie not writing down clearances whilst looking out of the window to avoid bashing into anything, or taking a clearance whilst halfway through the check list. Any further comments about the system would be appreciated.

Bye for now. Cowboy

[U R NumberOne]

We have a similar thing going at Aberdeen. Although it has been available for a few years now, we have recently made the procedure more formal by offering the clearance on start up if it has not already been requested. The driver behind this is the European Action Plan for the Prevention of Runway Incursions - a fascinating read and imprinted on my mind for years to come no doubt! An airport Managing Director's Directive has also been issued to bring this to the attention of operators.

We currently issue clearances without the squawk as that is usually obtained when the aircraft requests start, however I'm aiming to improve on this by late January when the squawk will also be available a short time (between 5 and 20 minutes) before start.

[Mooncrest]

Thankyou for your responses folks. I'm keen to learn so please keep on indulging me.

BookEm. It's a good move and one of several enhancements made over the years. BTW, I have sent you a PM. :ok:

[The Great Unwashed]

Just wondered if anyone knows when the Tower refurbishment at LBA is due to commence and how long it's expected to take.

[ILS 119.5]

Have heard, due to another management cock up, that it will not happen for another few months. Looks like the Directors have moved money out of the ATC budget to pay for other things, like dancing sirls to promote a new destination, punch and judy, a brass band and even new cars for the board.
Aah safety at its foremost!

[Mooncrest]

I seem to remember the tower refurb was first mooted at least two years ago so I can't think why it's taking so long. There is an emergency VCR on the south side which I believe is ready to move into.

On the outside, things sound okay, i.e. reasonable quality of the received audio and the signal strength. The hum and the tapping sound that accompany most transmissions (listen carefully and you'll hear) would however indicate that the switch is past its best. I don't know what things are like on the inside. Do the phones and tie-lines etc work OK ??

I hope the job gets done soon. Although the equipment appears ok from the listener's point of view, the fact that replacement has been planned for some considerable time indicates that it actually needs doing and isn't just a nice idea. Ironically, the design and circuit diagrams (which were produced in-house when this equipment was first installed) were used as a blueprint by NATS engineers for their own Towers so it must have been good at the time !

[stillin1]

ILS 119.5
Yo dude, its all part of the same conspiracy you know! The managment were involved in Kennedy's assasination and the Millenium Dome fiasco too. The world needs guys like you to keep things straight:\

[ILS 119.5]

I have just found out that LBA cannot use the "emergency" VCR on the south side as it has to have the same equipment as the main tower. Also all the controllers would have to be re-trained to use the "emergency" VCR and they do not have the staff to do it. Another cock up.

Apparently the new desk will be fitted over a two day period sometime in March. As they cannot use the "emergency" VCR I hope nothing goes wrong.

[stillin1]

ILS 119.5 - Great stuff , keep em coming.
Never let facts stand in the way of a good slander.
"I have just found out that....... ". Question - from who?
Suggest you have em neutered for talking bo**ocks.
By the way - did you know that LBA was deeply involved with the Titanic disaster too!!!!!!!! :yuk:

[ILS 119.5]

Stillin 1, my sources are reliable as they work at the airport, and I cannot divulge my sources. If you want clarification of the "emergeny" VCR equipment specifications then contact the CAA SRG dept. and ask them. Another good source of information would be for you to get to know one of the LBA ATCO's or ATC Engineers. Regarding the training of the ATCO's in the south side portacabin then ask SRG. Regarding the refit of the new desk, I was told mid march. However there is further doubt that it will be completed then. This project has been going on for many years, originally started by a gentleman who resigned and there has been 2 further ATC managers since then who have not been able to complete the project, not because it was their fault but due to higher management descisions. Did you know that the airport management stopped the staff from reading this forum due to embarrassment.

[stillin1]

Now don't start waiving big abbreviations at me. Elvis (and one of the cleaners) told me personally that you have got it all out of proportion. Lets get back to the "dancing sirls" and the new cars - sounds like my kinda place. Did you know they did that Irish bank job to pay for it all too? ;)
PS stop embarrasing yourself if you want the Airport Managment to let their staff read your stuff.
I'm bored now:p

[The Great Unwashed]

ILS 119.5,

Check your PMs.

Regards,

TGU

[The Great Unwashed]

Slightly off-topic but I've noticed that the LBA VHF tower frequency is now on 'simul-cast' with the UHF ground frequency. It's not a true band-box in the strict sense as stations on VHF cannot hear stations on UHF and vice versa, i.e. there's no retransmission. Hope that makes sense.

Traditionally at LBA the VCR Assistant has manned the UHF frequency under the VCR Controller's licence, obviously allowing the controller to come in on the frequency whenever necessary or convenient. Now the controller is manning this frequency exclusively.

I guess this alteration is just temporary and has something to do with the forthcoming switch upgrade. I'm sure anyone in the know will say if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

TGU.

[The Great Unwashed]

The switch upgrade programme appears to be underway. The Tower and UHF ground frequencies are now properly bandboxed
and the controllers sound very different. The audio is much more bassy and punchy, if a little muffled at times. The approach controller is more readable than the tower but this might have something to do with transmitter power. Still it's early days and plenty of opportunities for tweaking and fine tuning.