Paying for ATC selection preparation.

[Jerricho]

If Boss Radar could endulge me a little here, there's a topic that has come up over the past couple of days that I'm very interested in getting other opinions on (and if it starts bordering on advertising or seeking custom, I'll happily delete it)

The topic : Paying somebody to be "coached" for an Air Traffic Control interview.

I full understand if somebody had their heart set on being a controller, and would do anything to get a course. However, what are others thoughs on, as was suggested, paying a person/s to "prepare" for an interview. The information for the "interview" stage of the process is available here, and can be expanded upon by visiting an operational unit. Unfortunately, there is more to the process than that. Aptitude testing does just that........tests for aptitude. Personality suitability testing is the same. Does forking over hard earnt dosh encompass this side of things?

Having thought about this, I'm sure there are people out there who have thought "well, even if it's going to give me a slight advantage, I'll go for it". What happens if the application is unsuccesful? Effort AND money down the drain?

Thoughts?

This is not an attempt to stir sh*t.

[Fidgell]

Jerricho,

I fully agree with you, if its not in someone in aint in them!!! It is possible to coach someone in the personnel and technical interviews I feel, as there is a certain way one can go about the interviews and be MUCH better prepared. However, the psychometric testing is IMPOSSIBLE to fake, you could get example tests, but if you cant do that type of test - tough!

If someones prepared to hand over their cash then I feel sorry thats the best way they feel to succeed - but I know its an all costs application for most.

Is there a side issue here though that if one could help their way through or somehowfake the results - wouldnt they just fail in Bournemouth - or take a place from someone possibly more able?

:confused:

[Jerricho]

If someones prepared to hand over their cash then I feel sorry thats the best way they feel to succeed

Totally agreed Fidgell. But, as a further point (and Gonzo pointed out yesterday before the thread was cut) it's information that many people here readily and freely help with.

[VectorLine]

I still agree with Jericho.

My previous post before the thread was chopped pointed out that - Guidance on entry requirements is freely available from the company you are applying to and that this BB has an extensive support network for wannabes.

A free website with most information is also available in the sticky thread.

Jericho's initial response was "is this a joke"

I still wonder if it is.........

[Billy Onions]

Having just been through the interview you can have my two-penneth. I just really don't see how paying for an individual's help can be worth it. I mean - the replies to my questions and general help and info offered on this site (freely) was really fantastic and I've been at pains to thank everyone responsible (I made it through). But no one piece of advice or example questions came up. To be honest I was amazed at my technical interview - it just flew by and covered only a little of what I'd worried about learning. But I guess the point is that I had tried and learnt the things that another interviewer may have brought up.

As regards the personality stuff I suppose you could be given some stock answers but to be honest that's going to be seen through fairly quickly isn't it? I mean they aren't expecting automatons just some decent explanations and a bit of confidence getting them across. The computer tests you'd have to just practise and practise and I suppose you might improve but they're surely set up to test your adaptability at getting and applying information quickly. The main thing here is the breadth of experience that multiple input offers and the general community spirit here at PPRuNe is the real help (and those contact details for visits because NATS aren't helping there).

The idea of paying an individual for the service just seems pointless and a little arrogant of those concerned - to think that they have the magic responses for all applicants is a bit off and to be honest it would be a shame if people who want the opportunity as much as us hopefuls do were to pay for something that is far surpassed herein for nowt.


......

and relax.:hmm:

[Jerricho]

Of course, there is the issue of "no guarantee". Of course there is no guarantee. Sorry to be so blunt, but would anybody actually pay for this?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Well if folks got paid for helping out, arranging visits, setting up mock interviews, etc, then there's a few of us owed a few bucks :)

Danny, once I get all that cash in, I RESIGN ;)

[This is a crisis]

Interesting comments. While I agree you cannot teach someone 'aptitude' for the job I do beleive that coaching in interview technique can be beneficial.

You can have a guy or gal who has everything it needs to do the job but just goes to pieces in an interview. We once had an ATSA who fell at one hurdle in the interview process. We sent him on a two day assertiveness training course. He is now just about to complete his Approach Radar Course.

[Gonzo]

As I said on the other thread, unless the 'coach' is currently heavily involved in Recruitment with all the employers he/she is offering advice on, then how can it be viewed as any more authoritative than information found elsewhere?

[Jerricho]

This is a crisis, good for him! But, as you mention, it is only one hurdle to overcome. I really find it unbelievable that the other areas will be covered.

And, having just been talking with guys I work with, the following situation was proposed. Candidate in interview performs very well and is asked "How did you prepare for this?"

"Oh, I paid some dude.............."

(And well done Billy :ok: )

[steffi_kel]

Having recently been unsuccesful at interview stage, I would have gladly paid (within budget) to have someone help me through the process ie interview skills. Granted that the aptitude test etc cannot be prepared for, the selection process makes it practically impossible for an applicant to be succesful if they have all the knowledge/aptitude/IQ needed but are awful at interviews.

Not suggesting that I'm the next Einstein but for someone like myself who knows the answers and what they want to say but just simply cannot put it into words that an interviewer (or anyone else for that matter) would understand!

In hindsight, if I could have had some mock interviews to help me with my known weakness, even if I had to pay for them I would have done it in order to succeed in a very desirable career.

P.S. Congrats Billy!

[atcea.com]

Becoming an Air Traffic Controller is a bit like winning at poker: a bit of skill, but mostly luck.

I recall my own angst more than 30 years ago as I sat in a roomfull of hopefulls staring into a test booklet. What did putting together imaginary boxes have to do with seperating airplanes?

Nothing, it turns out.

Today the FAA is tinkering with something called ATSAT, a test to end all tests, which will finally show who will be pushing tin 20, 30 years down line. And if you believe that, I've got a bridge over River Thames for sale that I think will interest you.

Truth be told, passing the interview/test phase is still miles away from becoming a controller. Do what ya gotta do to get in the door, then: good luck!

ATC 24/7 (http://atcea.com)

[Jerricho]

Steffi, my condolences, but as PPRuNe Radar mentions, he has set up mock interviews for people. I've done it for 2 people. There are a great deal of genuine people around here and in the game that will go out of their way to help (even Gonzo :p ).

Senario: suppose a candidate was "coached" for interviews and alike, being plied with information he or she could regurgitate but not with a full undrestanding. I know my "bullsh*t" detector isn't the best in the world, but it's not hard to determine if a person does actually know what they are talking about. I know there has been speculation on the forum here about perceptions of how "cut-throat" the NATS interview stage of selection is. A person who is genuinly interested and prepared IMHO is going perform better than somebody who as swotted up a week or two before. And believe me, there will be individuals out there who think "Hey, ATC is a good paying job I've got nothing else to do. Where's that guy's phone number? Hi! Get me a job as an ATCO". Do we really want applicants like that?

[ILS 119.5]

I would like to say that individual, one to one, coaching is good. How many companieis offer pre cabin crew training? This company, which will start in the new year, will provide all the necessary information to pass an atc interview. It will not guarantee a pass but will provide as much help as possible. Visits to units will be arranged, interview preparation and atc knowledge will be provided. When I got through the process in the mid 80's I was lucky. If I had private tuition then I would have been more confident. At the end of the day, if you wanted a job and had to pay for private tuition, fron qualified professionals, then what would you do?
Think about it, 100 applicants, 50 have private tuition, the other 50 self train. What is the outcome? I would say that most of the self train people would come second to the others.
It's called oneupmanship.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

[Fidgell]

No ILS..... Its called PROFITIERING aka taking money off those who are duped into believing theyre getting something worthwhile for it!!!

Id advise all prospective candidates to get the info together from here, books, websites and what NATS supply and simply study it - hell do it before you even apply so its in yer noggin.

After all, thats all this "business" will do for you - theres nothing they can provide that aint free to all!!!

Good Luck to all - your future career is more honest than some :mad:

[Jerricho]

Totally missing the point.

At the end of the day, if you wanted a job and had to pay for private tuition, fron qualified professionals, then what would you do?

I'll repeat what VectorLine said earlier, just in case you missed it.............

Guidance on entry requirements is freely available from the company you are applying to and that this BB has an extensive support network for wannabes.

I do have a burning question regarding what business you would take as well. What if somebody approached you that obviously didn't have an interest in aviation, basically saw the advert and thought "Yeah, they get paid well. I'll give that a try.........here's my money!". You're going to take it, aren't you?

Like Fidgell, I wish anybody who wants to get into the job all the best. Just be warned, you don't have to pay for it!

[Mr Chips]

Although I have never conducted interviews for Student ATCO positions, I have conducted hundreds of ATSA recruitment/promotion interviews for NATS. I don't claim to be 100% perfect (although I haven't had a failure to validate yet!) but I would say that i have a well honed bull$hit detector - as have (I am sure) those that do the ATCO interviews.will provide all the necessary information to pass an atc interview
I would suggest to any ATC wannabee that they do their own research rather than relying on someone else to provide the information. I would far rather train those with a genuiine interest/aptitude for the job, rather than someone who has bought themself an interview pass (which is what you appear to be trying to sell ILS 119.5)
Senario: suppose a candidate was "coached" for interviews and alike, being plied with information he or she could regurgitate but not with a full undrestanding.
They stick out like a sore thumb Jerricho.

Steffi In hindsight, if I could have had some mock interviews to help me with my known weakness, even if I had to pay for them I would have done it in order to succeed in a very desirable career.
If it is simply interview technique.. ask anyone who works in HR or recruitment. If it is more the technical side - ask at your unit visits (by the way, anyone tries to organise visits to this unit in exchange for money - forget it!)

Chips

[Fidgell]

Good point Mr Chips....

Is it morale, legal and/or ok by NATS for ILSs "business" to SELL trips to units???

I am ALWAYS happy to show visitors around and let them plug in with me and answer questions... is ILS selling my services???

F:mad: :mad: K ME

[Jerricho]

Is it morale, legal and/or ok by NATS for ILSs "business" to SELL trips to units???

Actually, I hadn't even thought of that. How many people would be happy knowing an individual was paid to organise a visit to a unit. I think NATS certainly wouldn't. And no, this isn't looking for a "cut of the action" or "Geeze, I wish I had thought of that".

The more I think about this, the more it stinks.

[VectorLine]

It is rumoured that NATS already charges for some visits.

The story was that a group of Thai (I think ) people (they might be ATC Im not sure) paid £1500 each for a visit to Swanwick recently.

Anyone have more substantial info?

VL

[I'm not joking sir]

I worked my proverbials off for a couple of months earlier this year whilst I was going through selection. For the aptitude tests I spent a lot of time doing practice cube questions over and over and over again as I didn't feel at all confident about doing them. When it came to the actual tests I whizzed through that particular part and ended up wondering what all the fuss was about.

I honestly believe and stand to (hopefully not) be corrected that that shows that I have the required ability but just needed some practice as opposed to I didn't have the ability and so learnt how to do such questions.

Before the interviews I had mock interviews. I also tried to learn everything I could think of. I read business plans, learnt about FAST, iFACTS, the stack display trial, looked at movement figures, budgets, NATS organisation charts, last twelve months worth of NATSnews, news archive on the intranet and more. I reckoned that because I already work for NATS and had access to all this info I'd be expected to know more than an external candidate.

I visited Swanwick, TC and Stansted because again I reckoned I'd be expected to use the fact I could get visits arranged easily to show just how much I wanted to step up from being an ATSA.

With hindsight I studied stuff that was never going to come up but as a result of learning and seeing so much I got to each phase thinking "bring it on/ask me whatever you want" rather than "I hope I don't get asked this/I wonder if I've done enough". It also meant that I was able to show the interviewers how flippin' much I wanted to be an ATCO. However, would I have had that level of confidence if I had paid someone to teach me what they deemed was "enough" to get through selection?

At the end of the day, who is going to be seen to have gone that extra little bit in their desire to suceed? The person who is prepared to throw money and be lead by the hand or the person who has the balls/nouse/drive to find out for themselves? After all...

Aptitude test books - £15.98
Petrol for unit visits - £50
Showing how much I wanted the job - flamin' priceless!!

Finally, I wonder how NATS have managed to fill so many courses if this buyable "service" hasn't been available before to help people pass?:confused: :confused:

[steffi_kel]

You are now all contracted to 'coach' me for free, hopefully in a year's time :O

P.S. Ask HR??? You're having a laugh!!!

[Jerricho]

Right, so in reference to a PM I recieved stating the response had been enormous :rolleyes:, who out there still thinks it's a good idea?

[steffi_kel]

Mock interviews and interview technique hints, yes.
Teaching spatial awareness and motivation, no.
Charging to arrange visits, definitely not!

Just my opinion!

[I'm not joking sir]

Did anyone actually think it was a good idea in the first place other than they guy pushing it?

[Jerricho]

As I said, I recieved in rather haughty PM stating "what was my problem, response had been great, and when he had his Ferrari and place in St Tropez, he would send me a message:" :confused::rolleyes:

[Lon More]

I feel sorry for anybody with no real aptitude who goes this route. Basically all he/she/it is learning is interview technique. Most of the info is here on-line for free; if you have no aptitude you will - hopefully - be caught out further up the line. However by that time you have wasted a lot of people's time and money.

BTW If the person operating this service is employed by NATS would he/she be required to declare his/her involvement?

[VectorLine]

BTW If the person operating this service is employed by NATS would he/she be required to declare his/her involvement?

Good point Lon.

Misuse of NATS intellectual property.

On a tenuous link to that - I always wondered whether the person who produces the londoncontrol.com/ (http://londoncontrol.com/) programme works for NATS and whether that was theft of intellectual property......

[PPRuNe Radar]

BTW If the person operating this service is employed by NATS would he/she be required to declare his/her involvement?

NATS staff have to declare secondary employment if it meets the terms of the Staff Manual.

On a tenuous link to that - I always wondered whether the person who produces the londoncontrol.com/ programme works for NATS and whether that was theft of intellectual property......

Without seeing the thing it's hard to know. Certainly the airspace, routes, sectors, etc are all information freely available in the public domain. That said, if anything specific has been filched from the MATS Part 2 (such as a specific procedure or wordings) then that is commercially protected and could be classed as IPR theft I suppose.

[Jerricho]

I notice our little entrepreneur is being very quiet.

[Fidgell]

Agreed Jerricho, where is this fool???

Do Matchbox make a Ferrari for his Barbie St Tropez villa???

:p :eek:

[Lon More]

He's probably in management.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

[ILS 119.5]

Sorry have been away but still here and listening with interest.
Another scenario, what if this person decided not to give one to one tuition and then decided to write a book about modern atc. The book would then be sold in bookshops, therefore making money for the writer. What is the difference? A couple of things have come to mind from this thread. Firstly, none of the atco's who have posted replies seem to value their profession, meaning value, and how much are you worth. Secondly, the negative views show that nobody has an entreprenurial sense. If there are people out there with the guts and vision to find a niche in the market then good on them. An atco's position is on the same level as a doctor, lawyer, teacher and any other profession. How many doctors work for the nhs and then do private work for BUPA, loads. Why? to make more money. How many atco's have other businesses, loads. How many pilots have other businesses, loads. What is wrong with one person finding a gap in the market and making money, nothing.
If all your fuses in you house blew tonight would you expect the electrician to advise you how to fix them, for free. If you could give your professional knowledge, for a small fee, to prospective atco's then why not.
PS Jerricho
I will reply to you with a PM and answer all your questions.
ILS 119.5

[ILS 119.5]

PS Fidgell
Yes I am a fool with 10 o'levels, 3 a'levels, a degree in physics, atco licence, atpl, happily married in a large house with wonderful children. Do not try to accuse me about success and pontificate about me being a fool. I think I am slightly above the "fool" that you call me.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

[atcea.com]

Lon,

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

It took me 34 years sitting in front of a radar scope and standing in the tower cab to put together the knowledege I inpart to my trainees daily. Cute quote, but give it a bit more thought, please.

Shame on you!

ATC 24/7 (http://atcea.com)

[Jerricho]

The insinuation that there are people here who don't value their abilities and profession borders on farcical. And the analogies used are pointless. Do you really need it explained to you that an electrician's job involves changing fuses, yet as an ATCO you are licenced to perform your duties at your place of work (try heading down to your nearest uncontrolled airfield and start trying to exercise your abilities as a controller)

When an ATCO trains somebody on the job, they are paid for it (not very well, but that's another story). The ATCO must undergo a course to become an OJTI, and there are strict guidelines that must be followed in undertaking these duties, and should they not be up to scratch, steps are taken. Being an ATCO, you should know all this.

What you seem to be suggesting is imparting whatever knowledge you claim to have, for a fee. Regualtion issues? Conflict of interest issues? Who says the information you're going to impart is correct? The poor individual who has forked over the money won't really know will they, just that they weren't successful in their application.

Also, and this is a question I have asked you twice in a PM, but you have ignored. What if a person presented themselves to your business that obviously wasn't suited to the job, but still wanted to apply? Would you suggest they didn't? Or would you take their money and do everything to help them towards getting through the assessment, knowing full well their chances were slim to none?

[ILS 119.5]

Hang on Jerricho,
this now seems a personal battle between you and I. It is not supposed to be. What is CAS, what is a CTZ, what is a CTA, what is a MATZ, what is a RAS,RIS. All questions which can be asked at an interview. What are cumulous clouds, where is the low pressure system when the wind is behind you. These are all questions, and more, which can be asked. It all boils down to the fact that if you were willing to pay, for example £10.00, and have a better advantage of obtaining a job. Is it worth it? No guarantees but good tuition. I take my hat off to those who like me did all the groundwork before any interviews. But I will put my hat back on again to all of you who are trying to stop a company from working.
If a candidate was not suitable then no. I would not take their money nor would I make them think that they were suitable. As far as I am aware the company will only take suitable candidates and teach them the ropes. Whatever they need to know then they can find out.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

[PPRuNe Radar]

A gentle reminder that we should not attack an individual or individuals on this Forum.

Debate should be about ideas and viewpoints, not personalities.

Some folks may wish to look at their posts and delete or edit them accordingly.

[I'm not joking sir]

Would the applicants be required by this business to pass aptitude tests to assess their ability to pass aptitude tests? :)

Once a visit had been arranged, would the person who'd arranged the visit be responsible for looking after the pupil during the visit? Would they be doing this whilst in on AAVA?

Is it morale, legal and/or ok by NATS for ILSs "business" to SELL trips to units???

Actually, I hadn't even thought of that. How many people would be happy knowing an individual was paid to organise a visit to a unit. I think NATS certainly wouldn't. And no, this isn't looking for a "cut of the action" or "Geeze, I wish I had thought of that".

Ok, so if NATS are approached by this organisation, why not charge for visits?

Take the following example. A group of French trainee ATCOs (who work in the South of France so have no contact with NATS professionally) visit a NATS airport. The visit is organised by a French commercial outfit that teaches aviation English. NATS business development charges said commercial organisation as NATS knowledge, intellectual property is being passed on but nothing of direct benefit to NATS is gained. Surely charging for this is logical.

Now take the case of an ATCO trainee applicant. He phones this NATS airport, explains his situation and arranges a visit. The ATCOs are happy to help him and show him around. Benefit to NATS - possible new ATCO. Of course there should be no charge for these visits especially as they are recommended to applicants. However, if these visits were being arranged by a commercial organisation...

[Lon More]

atcea.com your career mirrors mine, except it was 37 years in ATC as controller, Training Officer, Supervisor and System Developer but only m.e./ifr I'm afraid.
my experience showed that the best Controllers did not neccessarilly make the best instructors, nor the best instructors the best controllers.

Let's get back to the subject as the mods are a bit touchy recently
:)

Here since before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus a Rigger

[Mr Chips]

Lets try and get my thoughts straight on this issue...

Anyone facing an interview can get guidance here FOR FREE
Anyone wanting a visit to a NATS unit can do so FOR FREE
Only the interviewers actually know what will be asked
Nobody can ever really prepare for the aptitude tests
A good interviewer will spot a coached candidate instantly

Yep, I think that about covers it....

[VectorLine]

Hmmmm

Just looking at the questions raised by ILS as possible interview questions.

Just to make it clear to any wannabes reading this.......

What is CAS, what is a CTZ, what is a CTA, what is a MATZ, what is a RAS,RIS. All questions which can be asked at an interview. What are cumulous clouds, where is the low pressure system when the wind is behind you

It is unlikely that you will be asked such involved questions at the technical interview. This is information TAUGHT AT THE COLLEGE!!

I had no aviation experience when I applied for the job. For various reasons (living outside the UK for one) I was unable to get hold of any of the suggested reading material.

I prepared for the aptitude tests by practicing the test paper sent by NATS and doing puzzles in newspapers. I got through it (indicating I possibly have the aptitude for ATC?) and went to the interview armed with the knowledge I gleaned from NATS (out of date) brochures and a browse through some spotters books I got from a library.

The questions I was asked were either based on the information I had been sent, or were situations to test my thinking - not aviation knowledge.

ILS is perfectly right to think of a business use for his knowledge (lets face it, I bet more than a few of us have thought about writing an ATC type book). And good luck to you if/when you start your consultancy.

However, it has sparked off a good debate and I do hope any wannabes reading these fori are intelligent enough to do their own research.

cheers all
VL

[Gonzo]

I concur with VectorLine.

It is unlikely that you will be asked such involved questions at the technical interview. This is information TAUGHT AT THE COLLEGE!!

[away from home]

I got also got through the selection process by doing pretty much the same as Vectorline. I had no aviation background at all and the preparation I did for the interviews/tests was limited to learning the information I had been sent by NATS( this wasn't because I couldn't be bothered to do anything else, merely that I thought that was all they were expecting you to know).
I understand people wanting to be as prepared as possible, however it just shows that as long as you have learnt the info they send, it is possible to pass with that :ok:

[Jerricho]

A good interviewer will spot a coached candidate instantly

I'm glad this came up again, as it was brushed over earlier. A good interviewer will be able to recognise if somebody has been coached. What will their reaction be if they were to ask a candidate how they prepared for the process and were told "Well, I paid some guy to coach me". Place them next to an applicant that prepared themselves, organised their own visits to units and picked the brains of some people on this forum..............basically show initiative and perogative. I know who I would rather give the position to.

[ILS 119.5]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good interviewer will spot a coached candidate instantly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How?

[Billy Onions]

Look lads - we've all had a drink. Every one just settle down, put their chests in and call it a night eh? When I found this forum I was struck by the real helpful nature of it all - and the sense of community from the people on it. It stood apart from most of the other bickering and sniping forums to be found everywhere else on the net. I'd hate to think that someone who was reading up on the career they wanted (as I was/am) would find this and be put off (even a little).

Lets all just agree to disagree eh boys? I mean - many of us just don't get it and find the idea a bit vulgar and/or sad but there's plenty of businesses run like that.

I for one don't get how you'll end up with a Ferrari & a Villa from charging the few unfortunates who can't find this site a tenner for a bit of flannel but hey, live and let live. With a degree and your various licences - not to mention a loving wife (a fact that warms all of our hearts) I would have thought many a business plan would offer better potential but it's not for me to say.

So come on now chaps - keep it light. Keep it friendly, keep it fuzzy.

[Fidgell]

Anyone else here actually a participant in NATS recruitment????

Id like to think ill spot a coached candidate but who knows!!!

I cant see this putting geuine applicants off, but hey we're all different. Maybe we'll get some success rates from ILS on here in time... we get a very good idea on this site of people who've taken the initiative and asked questions and dug for themselves and who has and hasnt passed.

I think Im pretty good at reading posts and guessing who'll be in and who won't......

Good luck to all though, you'll have a long and rewarding career ahead of you :ok:

You get what you put in... pay peanuts get :mad:

[ILS 119.5]

How many people apply for the cadetship every year? Out of all these people how many are invited for a interview? How many are successful? How many more could be successful with a bit of private tuition? Believe me I am not naive nor is my colleague who may be setting this up. It is not being done by "some bloke", it is being done by highly qualified professionals. The market is not for fully qualified qualified atcos or student atcos but merely to help inexperienced candidates attain more knowldge than required to help them to get through the final stages. How many colleges now offer pre training? loads. How many offer interview techniques? loads. If I failed my inteview because someone next to me had paid a small amount of money and passed then I would be gutted, and wished that I had done the same thing.
Unfortunately in a commercial world, businesses are run by money. In my view if you want to succeed then sometimes you have to sacrifice. To be the best and get ahead of your peers you have to work harder. To say that all the information NATS send you is enough to pass the interview is incorrect. When you get better candidates with more knowledge at the interview then these are the ones I would employ. Also means less failure rate at the college for NATS.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

[Jerricho]

paid a small amount of money

Ah yes, the actual cost of all this. Pray tell, just how much will a small amount of money actually be, in this business driven world?

To say that all the information NATS send you is enough to pass the interview is incorrect. When you get better candidates with more knowledge at the interview then these are the ones I would employ. Also means less failure rate at the college for NATS

Rubbish. What an insult to every applicant that has got through. Candidates for decades have been passing assessments. These very self motivated people have prepared themselves, got off their backsides and studied and arranged for unit visits.........themselves. And, as has been repeated several times, it's not just the knowledge required for the interview. Funny thing aptitude tests. I believe NATS policy is to allow applicants 3 attempts at the process. As much as I hate to say it, people unfortunately are still unsuccessful having sat the aptutude tests twice, thus actually knowing the format and contents. Why? The answer is simple.

As an aside, I would be very curious as to what NATS HR and upper management would have to say about the whole matter.

[ILS 119.5]

Well I'm sorry to say that times change. The commercial world is business, and if there is an opportunity for someone to grasp and to make a business out of it then so what. I'm finished with this debate now. Good luck to my colleague, and hard luck to all the pessimists.
Rgds,
ILS 119.5

[Jerricho]

and if there is an opportunity for someone to grasp and to make a business out of it then so what

Ladies and gentlemen, we now get to the bottom of it all. This is obviously what our intrepid businessmen see their targeted customers as..........a fast buck. When legitimate questions and concerns are raised by those in the profession and start hitting a little close to home, dummies are spat out and no further debate will be entered into.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

[Fidgell]

BINGO... We get the truth.

So,would anyone consider paying this "highly professional" outfit their hard earned for this money driven, atitude problematic nonsense???

ILS says they (and I assume this is the old Ive got a friend routine) are highly qualified, but they havent listed their training and physcological qualifications to give them "the edge" that they claim to offer paying customers.

Aptitude tests are just that, aptiude is ability and potential - can this be taught? If someone isnt cut out for a task can they be miracled into it? Maybe ILS can give me the ability I need to play football for England? Or does having a house and car only qualify him elsewhere to teach???

I think this subject is nearly closed, and I didnt see the results of the feasability study the thread poster wanted!!!

But then we maybe dont have the skills of our esteemed friend...

;)

[Jerricho]

but they havent listed their training and physcological qualifications to give them "the edge" that they claim to offer paying customers.

Now, now Fidgell. As happened in the original thread about this, that would actually border on advertising, and I'm sure Danny would be happy to take HIS money for the privilege.

Both sides of the discussion have been put forward, and ultimately it is up to those who would think about paying for such a thing to make that choice for themselves. ILS has said he doesn't want to play anymore, and I'm betting it is, as you say, because we didn't "see the results of the feasability study the thread poster wanted"

I think it would be useful though just to bring this to the top of the forum every so often so people who may have heard about this little business venture can read what others in the industry think, and just maybe what to expect from it. And to remind them they don't have to and shouldn't have to pay for help.

[ILS 119.5]

Check this out

www.inflighttraining.co.uk

[Jerricho]

:rolleyes:

Check this out

Price = 125 pounds!!!!!!

(plus an additional 25 pounds for the guide book)

Uh humm....................

ATC applicants don't have to and shouldn't have to pay

(Hands up all those successful applicants that did)

And I'll let you in on a little hint. Those are certificate courses, and look to be an excellent idea, but they don't guarantee you a job now do they. Sure, they're something that can be added to a resume.

Once again though, you're glossing over the whole aptitude testing and personality testing side of the application process. To be a controller, you must have an aptitude for the job.


Remember saying this?

I'm finished with this debate now

Really?

[Scotsliveit]

Hi all.

I've read this thread with some interest. I passed through the recruitment process first time this year. I'm due to start CATC soon.

Coaching is a thorny subject. I didn't have this site at the time of the process so I relied on NATS provided info.

I learned it all to give me the confidence in the interview. Much of it didn't come up but I think the interviewer(cool guy by the way) quickly caught on to the fact that I knew my stuff and was pretty headstrong. He then began to ask me things I knew almost nothing about (weather etc). I knew he was trying to throw me but I stayed positive, cooperative and constructive.

At the moment I'm gearing up for the college. I take some comfort that I've passed tests and interviews which show I'm suitable. I'm not saying that coaching is cheating but I don't know if i'd feel that comfort knowing that I'd gone about passing the interviews in possibly a different way than was meant if you know what I mean.

Seven months since passing and now this is becoming real I'm looking with interest at the drop out rate at the college and why. Is it people who've worked had and just don't have the aptitude or what. Although I do know of people who washed out over the last few years who sounded a bit mad for it. Guess there's no cert answer.

Read in the independant though that only 1 from every 120 valid applications is successful through the recruitment process.

I'm sure many people get through first time. I though didn't have any perception in my achievement. Reading this forum has changed this a little.

The recruitment process wets the candidates appetite for the job if I had been unsuccessful and applied again would I consider some coaching as a backup. WHO KNOWS

[VectorLine]

Wow!

£125 for a certificate?

I notice that assessment is by written assignment.
They send you the documentation, you read it and then they send you some assessment questions. You wouldn't dream of referring back to the notes would you? Looks like paying for a qualification to me.

I believe this is set up as a 'training' course with 'qualifications' because a) they probably get subsidies to provide learning courses and b) Is it legal advertise as 'how to pass an airline selection process'

As an aside I see that their certificate in airline and airport passenger service agent skills and certificate in airline and airport conflict management have exactly the same content.

Do you get 2 for the price of one then? or more likely - one for the price of two!?

[Nuisance]

<ahem>

I'm a current trainee, and having read all of the above I have to say - the interviews etc are the easy bit! The training is tough (surely SOME of you remember??!!), and requires aptitude and commitment and serious hard graft. If you can't pass the interviews/ tests, the chances are you won't be able to hack it. In which case, paying for coaching would be a waste of money anyway...

N;)

[Jerricho]

Looks like paying for a qualification to me.

:E ;)

Remember, with no guarantee. And it looks like most of those courses are aimed at people in the industry already (aside from the first one).

[ILS 119.5]

OK maybe not finshed yet as such a good debate.
Have you seen the books on aptitude testing? There are a few.
If so many pass the aptitude tests then why do they fail? Surely if the aptitude testing is that good then students would not fail.
To go back to my original thread, the so called training is not to guarantee any pass at all. But to give prospective candidates a far greater knowledge of ATC than the suggested reading. Therefore this knowledge should give the candidate an advantage over someone else who has only read the minimum required.
I would personally employ a person who has gone further, (using whichever method), to obtain the knowledge required to get a job. It shows determination to succeed.
Many years ago a company called "Aviation Foundation Training" was formed, working out of the old Bournemouth Airports Directors House. This was run by a CAA assistant. The company had a better success rate than the college. The only reason was that people were paying for it and there was more attention payed to the students.

[Mr Chips]

ILS you asked how a professional experienced interviewer would spot a coached candidate. Easily, I have done it myself. Can I explain how? No, not really, I guess that if you are good at what you do, you can spot them... I guess you could call it aptitude!

You have not answered at least one of the questions posed here... how could anyone charge for a visit to a NATS unit?

Also - how much would this service cost? What are your (or your "friends") qualifications? Can you guarantee success? Can you measure added value?

I shall await your answers with interest

[Jerricho]

I would personally employ a person who has gone further, (using whichever method), to obtain the knowledge required to get a job. It shows determination to succeed

And if I had 2 candidates under consideration, and I knew one had gone out and researched their preparation themselves and the other had simply paid someone............I know which one I would employ.

If so many pass the aptitude tests then why do they fail? Surely if the aptitude testing is that good then students would not fail.

Come off it. That is just grasping at straws. There are so many variables in the training process from day one right up to validation day, it is a foolish question indeed. And infact, one could even point you statement at what you propose. Your little business may get people through the application process and a seat in the college...............hmmmm.


You're beginning to talk in circles here. It's been established on several occasions that up till now applicants have prepared themselves. From some of the PMs and emails I personally have recieved, these people are already highly motivated and not just doing the bare minimum. Even reading through some of the threads that appear here, they have a desire to achieve their aspiration of attaining a training slot. You have admitted viewing your whole enterprise as a business you want to make a quick buck from. You keep waving this "higher quality" applicant flag. That is an insult to anybody who had already gone through the process off their own back and achieved what they set their sights on......themselves.

[Fidgell]

Yeah looks like ILSs first idea of fininshing with this thread was a better venture than this one.....

The course at Bournemouth IS difficult, the dropout rate reflects this. Make no bones about it, you will not succeed without hard graft.... but it is worth it and those with the aptitude will get there. After all it is not a job to do if you cannot do it!!!

However, maybe there is a certificate one can buy to disprove this!

:p

[Gonzo]

To go back to my original thread, the so called training is not to guarantee any pass at all. But to give prospective candidates a far greater knowledge of ATC than the suggested reading. Therefore this knowledge should give the candidate an advantage over someone else who has only read the minimum required.

The interviews are designed to test aptitude, not knowledge.

I would personally employ a person who has gone further, (using whichever method), to obtain the knowledge required to get a job. It shows determination to succeed.

Personally, I would employ someone who demonstrated a calm temperament under pressure, showed an ability to think laterally to solve problems and was able to multitask, regardless of their level of knowledge of ATC or determination to succeed.

If those skills and abilities were missing, but the candidate had an encylopaedic knowledge of ATC, I'd show him or her the door.

[Jerricho]

Thought I would bring this back to the top just as I'm wondering if anyone out there at the moment has seen/used/thoughts

(I'm not trying to get the debate going again as I think we pretty much covered that)

[ILS 119.5]

Well believe it or not my colleague is already helping future students with advice, guidance and atc tuition. I cannot divulge any of the costings as I do not know but I'm sure these people will have a better chance of passing the technical interview than others. I agree with many of you in the fact that most things can be researched but how do you know what to research if you don't know the business. Also please bear in mind that this is not "some bloke" giving the information. He is a fully qualified ATCO with 20 years experience.

[ILS 119.5]

Sorry forgot to add, if you buy a book on ATC then the Author makes money, why buy a book when you can get up to date information from a professional person. The CAA reccommends reading these books which provide outdated info.

[Jerricho]

I'm not trying to get the debate going again as I think we pretty much covered that

:rolleyes:

[ILS 119.5]

so why mention it then

[Jerricho]

Go and read what I posted again. :rolleyes:

I was asking if anybody out there had seen or used the "uh-hum" service and their thoughts on it.

[ILS 119.5]

Doesn't matter people are paying for advice and instruction. If you want to sit and pontificate from Canada then that is up to you. If you want to slag people off for trying to build a business then that is up to you. Regardless of what your inexperienced brain says my colleague will earn and make a good business.
If you work in Canada then concern yourself with what goes on in your country not in the UK. You have made the decision to leave the UK so go and do not interfere with UK matters.

[Jerricho]

Wow. Mr Parinoid. At what point since I brought this back to the top have I "pontificated" or slagged anyone? It was a genuine question asking for genuine input. As there have been 6 months passed, and we've quite a few people who have come on the forums asking questions about getting in, I was curious had anybody found it beneficial or otherwise. As to this point there are no replies other than your little bleat, I'm taking it that nobody that comes on here has.

Me thinks you're protesting a little too loud. You're just rehashing your crap from earlier and resorting to childish little insults. The only person who deserves slagging is you for making an ass of yourself. :rolleyes:

[ILS 119.5]

"parinoid" is spelt "paranoid. Education helps you spell, knowledge helps you teach. This is not a touchy subject for myself but trying to aid a friend starting a business. If it is not for you then farewell. If you do not have the brain to run a business then OK. Please keep up the slagging off for my colleague but it will not work. Success is determined by desire and he has the desire. If Canada is such a great place to work then why are we not all there? I went through the college in the early 80's and then went back to instruct for a short while. I may have even taught you. My experience is second to none, my views are my own.

[Fidgell]

ILS, Jerricho has NOT slagged anyone off, the only unprofessional comments on this thread come from your own direction. If nobody else has your amazing business brain then I bow down before your superiority..... now I ask a question,

Would anyone pay somebody like this to impair their "superior knowledge" you may rely on for the once in a lifetime opportunity to attain the career of your dreams?

PM me potential candidates and I shall impart my "inferior" knowledge and "lack of business brain" for free. After all what do I know Im only an ATCO (and occasionally involved in ACTUALLY conducting interviews).

Some people are willing to help you, others just want to help themselves. No wonder Jerricho left!!!:)

[Jerricho]

ILS, you will have to excuse my spelling. Although, if that's the only premise you have to launch yet another silly little attack, then you're just making a bigger ass of yourself.

(BTW what is this bug up your ass about Canada? Where have I mentioned this AT ALL in this thread.) :rolleyes:

You obviously have your view, and seeing as you seem to be referring to previous posting, so do others as has been discussed, hence ONCE AGAIN I draw attention to the fact that I was asking for input without reference to earlier debate.........why don't you listen (with all that experience). Please stop defiling this thread any longer until you have actually read and understood the question.

(I don't think you were one of my instructors in the college. They were all far to intelligent to be coming out with the garbage you are)

[ILS 119.5]

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread. As you all know I agree with paying for ATC preparation. It is not up to us to decide who wants to pay or not to pay for it. If someone wants to pay then that is up to them. If someone wants to do their own research then that is up to them. I would not be able to tell if any candidate had been privately trained or done their own research. Good luck to all that apply. Oh and by the way I would not employ people who cannot spell, it is a sign of bad education.

[Fidgell]

Id employ someone more professional and with nicer manners.....

:)

[nginear]

I agree with ILS, what is wrong with his mate giving professional advice and tuition and getting paid for it. The problem with the aviation profession at the moment is that it is a lowly profession. We as professionals should make it as good as it was rather than undermining it.

[Jerricho]

From page one (Quote form VectorLine)

Guidance on entry requirements is freely available from the company you are applying to and that this BB has an extensive support network for wannabes.

[ILS 119.5]

yes, I cannot say any more.

[Jerricho]

Oh and by the way I would not employ people who cannot spell, it is a sign of bad education.

Is it cause I is dumb? Or can't type?

BTW ILS, quote from you page one:

How many companieis

Go look up "hypocrite" and "hoser" in the dictionary :rolleyes: You certainly can't say anymore.

[Fidgell]

Cant you??? Mustve left skool even earlier than the rest of us!!!

[Jerricho]

Now, now. We mustn't continue this........or it will start getting personal :E

[VectorLine]

As an ATCO, the only time I have ever had to spell difaykult wurds is when I have been filling in MOR's!

Spelling isn't important, aptitude for learning the job is. Trained monkeys, we are (apologies to 'Yoda').

Anyway, is there anyone reading this forum who has paid for ATC selection coaching ? (as the current question stands). I'b be interested to know how you are getting on.

As it goes, are there any similar companies offering the same service for potential pilots?

ILS : What's the company called? and how does your friend advertise? Just wondering as I am interested to find out whether NATS have made any enquiries (inquiries? I'm sure both are valid).

I ask because, I have a friend who has collated a popular (free) web site with selection advice, and someone from NATS has tried to discover the identity of the site owner.

Cheers
VL

[Fidgell]

Would you be able to divulge the website name??? Only ask as we SHOULD offer FREE advice to prospective colleagues.... Good on you whoever you may be!!!

Will anyone admit using the paid service? How did you do?

Stewpid folk wud lick to no!!!

[ILS 119.5]

At the moment all interested students are by word of mouth. The future may dictate otherwise.

[Jerricho]

A question for you that you cleverly dodged last time it was posted to you. With your vast years of experience, I'm sure you have come across applicants who are clearly not suited to the job (and I'm not talking about a lack of book learning).

Should these candidates be vetted before handing over their cash, or will it just be "Thank you very much, make your cheque payable to..........."

[ILS 119.5]

Good point. No, The applicant will be paying for ATC knowledge only. Even though it can be researched my friend will provide it far easier than lookig through books. It is not a "thank you very much" business but more of a "I'll help you out" business with a payment to cover my time.

[Jerricho]

You've only answered half the question (just like last time).

You say they will be provided with ATC knowledge only. Yet, for a person with similar to your years of experience (yours is second to none so I am told), you'll probably be able to tell if somebody is suited to the job or not.........

Their money still going to be taken???

[Mr Chips]

Wasn't there something about promising unit visits as well? Didn't we ask how this could be guaranteed/charged for? Really can't be bothered scrolling back....

[VectorLine]

Fidgell

Yes, it is quoted in the sticky recruitment thread.

Any updates/personal accounts/advice gratefully received


VL

[Jerricho]

Chippy:

Page 1, post dated November 25, 2005.

Visits to units will be arranged,

Happy to help a brother out ;)

[Fidgell]

ILS whos' company is this then???

You started out with the old "a friend" ruse, but keep slipping into "payment to cover MY time"..... where you hoping for our approval as a free testamony to plug YOUR so called company?

Seems only a couple of us are with you, the overwhelming majority would provide any prospective applicants here the same info and unit visits GRATIS!!! Now who would you go for??!! Or as usual are you better than the rest of us???? :mad:

I'll go now before I say what I really feel....:p

Sorry everyone else, but it gets my goat to see people trying to make money of folk who'd do anything that seems to increase the chances of success, even when somewhat misguided in the approach.... NOBODY should feel they need to pay for info readily available for free by grateful, professional soon to be colleagues who remember what it was like coming into the business!

Soapbox back in its cupboard for now...

(I'll wait for "someone" to mark my spelling and grammar!)

[Jerricho]

Sorry to drag this up to the top again, but

ILS, I have a question for you......

Your mate doesn't happen to have the first name Warren and last name beginning with B???

[cdb]

Jerricho... you've just planted a thought...

that wouldn't happen to be Warren of the old "Car Boot College" in Bournemouth?

[Jerricho]

I'm neither denying or confirming your question cdb.

Mine is an innocent inquiry, tis all.

[niknak]

Warren Brown:confused: :eek: ??????

[Jerricho]

I don't know where all this is coming from?

It's just a simple question.

[cdb]

Oh, I dunno Jerricho, you've started a great little rumour from your little igloo now...

[ILS 119.5]

No it's not him. But he was quite successful with "Aviation Foundation Training" as I remember and helped a lot of chopped cadets attain their ratings.

[Jerricho]

Thank you. A conversation just got me thinking.

Signed:

Jerricho

"Keeping it free..........."

[ILS 119.5]

Why, are you thinking of doing it yourself?

[Jerricho]

What. Helping prospective ATC applicants and ot demanding money for it? Already doing it, like quite a few people round here. :rolleyes:

Run along now and try to concoct another LBA bashing thread. It's nearly been a week.

[ILS 119.5]

No, you run along and try and do something for your new found country. Myself and my mate will look after UK people and look after ourselves. Bye.

[Fidgell]

Dont get me started....... ILS,very childish answer that, thanks for proving us right all along-you only fail to disappoint one group, those that pay you!!!

[Jerricho]

Yes ILS, great retort.

Why didn't you just post "I know you are, but what am I"?

At least that would have been funny. :rolleyes:

[tobzalp]

Hi I an an ATC. pm me your moneys and I will tell you how to do it. I am very smart and helpful.

[paulriggers]

Doesn't this sort of pre-training exist in almost all industries? Cabin crew, armed forces, pilots, police. Some even have HND courses based around them. What's wrong with someone wanting to set it up and make some money from it? As long as it's worth it, and that would generally be self regulating, crap service - no recommendation, good service - word of mouth recommendation. Some people just don't really have the ability to research and find out information that well despite having an aptitude for the job. I like to do my own research and will continue to do so but everyone's different, some people wouldn't even know how to find this forum. I've got lots of peers from university who are not so internet savvy. Maybe if there were more people with entrepreneurial spirit (and this isn't a dig) in NATS then it would be performing better commercially.

As I see it, everyone who has slated this idea is from one group of people, those who have internet access and are familiar with pprune - that's a very small group of people. What about people not in those two groups? Isn't this idea a valid alternative?

I agree it would be unethical to charge for a NATS visit if it was provided for free.

I have also done a few business courses in recruitment and interviewing (not ATCO specific) and would definitely pick up on bad spelling for various reasons (attention to detail, education, failure to check) not to be confused with typo's though! And wouldn't rate paying for information any less than someone who's done it themselves, both valid routes.

Also, aptitude is there or not but familiarisation with the tests sure makes them easier.



Cue the onslaught..........
:p :p

[Jerricho]

Hi Paul,

My biggest question, which to this point STILL hasn't been answered this.

What happens if somebody comes to our little entrepreneur and says "Hey, I wanna be ATC, help me and have some dosh". Now, what if it is blatently obvious (for what ever reason) our little wannabe is unsuitable for ATC. Will he/she be told "Don't bother mate!" or will the money happily be taken? It is a business after all :rolleyes:

[paulriggers]

I suppose that comes down to how ethical the business is, which note is by no means an obligation.

Turning people away will lose you money but being ethical will ensure you succed in the long term. I think that's more of a long term business decision to make.

Another debatable point would be, what would make ILS qualified to decide the future of someone and say they are not suitable? Would it not be far worse to turn someone away and tell them they are not suitable and put them off for life than taking their money, training them up and for them to then fail of their own accord?

[Jerricho]

Welcome to the dark side Paul ;)

I'm sure our friend will be along soon to dodge the question AGAIN.

[Fidgell]

Ok, youve woken me up again.....

Here's a good point brought up - What gives ILS the right/ability to judge a candidates suitability? I like that as I have my own answer like Im sure the rest of us do..

Another one from the latest posts, If a candidate doesnt have the "ability" to research the application process when this site as well as many publications are there to help - plus the info NATS sends as incomplete as it is - then I ask can the lazy (or inable ) be suitable for such a career? Or even more, would they pass the college courses which require such learning ability and dedication?

Or will ILS take their money througout the college and hold the poor inable/lazy students hands at each stage?

Will ILS help me through my next LCE???? He's my hero!!! ;)

[niknak]

Slap me down if I'm wrong, but didnt the CAA (SRG) introduce the concept of ARGAT (the principle of being continually assessed and having to meet milestones to continue the course), because a certain well known provider of ATC courses was alledgedly offering courses to anyone who came along with the cash?

Allegedly, they even had an arrangement with a financial institution to arrange loans for said people to fund their courses, no pre assessment as to suitability for the loan or course, no questions asked. :suspect:

I not for a moment suggesting that ILS is doing the same thing, but what advice can he offer which is more effective than an assessment as provided by the approved course providers?

[ILS 119.5]

Firstly the advice offerred is only direction, i.e. to study what is required to have general knowledge for the interview. To be on hand for any further questions that candidates may have. It is not a training course but it provides advice and information for potential controllers. The company cannot and will not comment on suitability or aptitude which is up to the CAA to decide. We are only providing a platform for prospective ATCO's to obtain more than the basic knowledge for interviews. We do not charge for visits to units, we are paid for our Aviation knowledge and experience. Exactly the same way as you pay for a book which has been recommended for reading by NATS before the inteview, only we are more up to date.

[Jerricho]

I'll restate my question one last time..............

What if a person presented themselves to your business that obviously wasn't suited to the job, but still wanted to apply? Would you take their money knowing full well their chances were slim to none? Are you asking for money up front?

:rolleyes:

[ILS 119.5]

NO!
We would not. But as I stated earlier like any other training establishment we can only provide our best, it is up to the student to pass the interviews/exams etc. We can only provide our best and current knowledge. We will ensure all prospective candidates have enough Aviation knowledge for the interview. Passing is not up to us.
Can you tell who is suitable to be an ATCO? The CAA can't due to all the failures. All we want to do is try and help and take a small payment for it.

[niknak]

Can you tell me who is suitable to be an ATCO?

Well, the aptitude tests/assesments done by the two independant colleges and CATC at Hurn are by no means infallible, but they do provide a very good indicator as to who will get through the courses and who will not, even CATC's output of successful candidates is markedly better now.

CATC and the two independants will tell candidates immediately if they don't think they'll make it through the course. Their assesments are done by instructors who have to maintain CAA standards to keep their instructors tickets.

It's a well known and proven fact that it's better for the candidates to go into the interview and test days having done the recommended reading, visits and with an open mind, which they can do for free - not having paid for the "advice" of someone who appears not to be a qualified instructor, nor is an atco.