Newcastle Aero Club

[Happyeater]

All aircraft grounded today due to large debts built up over the past two years or so. At a recent AGM nothing was really agreed and now the planes are not being allowed to fly. Unless a package is agreed at the next re-scheduled AGM on the 9th December, it could be the end of the Club.

I really feel for the people who's living is reliant on the Club and can only hope that an agreement is imminent. I do understand that there is a meeting on Monday between the Club solicitor, committee and the main creditors. Unless the income stream keeps going through lessons, I fear for the Newcastle Aero Club. Fingers crossed that the planes can fly until the AGM after Mondays meeting.

[Zlin526]

NAC is one of the oldest flying clubs in the UK. Is this just another case of big airport forcing out GA, like happened at Luton? Manchester School of Flying seems to be hanging on in there, but for how long?

[Charlie32]

Or a bit of both?

It is true that the management of NAC has been seriously inadequate, to the point of being almost non-existent, however the combined effect of landing (and T/G) fees by about 1000 percent has had a deleterious effect upon the clubs income stream, and follows a pattern set by the CEO (alleged salary £700K) when in charge at Bristol. Incidentally most of his excessive charges were reviewed and reduced following his departure from Bristol.

Unfortunately a few years ago the club was relatively wealthy, but numerous bad (and possibly illegal) actions by successive club committees have frittered away all the reserves, and exposed a fundamentally flawed business structure.

Several of the responsible committee members have resigned over the past 18 months leaving a lack of proper scrutiny or control over expenditure, particulalry in relation to directors expenses!

A failure to effectively communicate with either creditors or
the membership has led to a deterioriation in an already difficult position, to a point where, without any income stream, there is almost certainly no prospect of recovery.

As has been said above this is the oldest flying club in continuous existence, and in the unlikely event of it surviving into 2005 will have been in existence for 80 years. Unless it can be saved or replaced there will be no affordable access to fixed wing flight training between Durham Tees Valley and Edinburgh.

Truly a sad state of affairs for aqviation in the NE

[cessna l plate]

This would be a very sad day for GA.
But for my money, more than a smattering of the blame has to lie at the door of the airfield operator.
I may be wrong here, but is it that they don't get any discount on landing fees? If so, then twenty odd quid to land is taking the you know what.

The reason I say this is when I started looking into the ppl shenanigins, as my job takes me to every major airport in the north UK, I called in and got a price list.

Nice guys, and a great club house, something we don't enjoy at LPL. But whilst I was there, I overheard an instructor telling a young lad that today would be solo day if all went well. The next statement made me shudder, that this exercise would cost £240 ish! No doubt the biggest part of this is landing fees. Just exactly WHAT are the costs of carefully placing less than a tonne of metal on a lump of tarmac??
When you hear tales of airports paying MOL & Co to land there, just where does this muppet at NCL get off????

Hope it survives. I'm sure the club will be there for another 80 years, unlike the numpty in charge of NCL. Perhaps he should consider that some things are better and bigger than he is!!

Just incase an airport manager is reading this, where do you think the pilots of the big jets(that bring you millions of pounds a year in revenue) train?????
Think about it

[Shropshire Lad]

As far as I am aware I was paying around about £8 per landing out of hours and around £15 at peak times. I feel the airfield operator may be getting a disproportionate amount of blame here. Whilst this was per landing (I have flown a circuit detail where 5 landings cost £40) the total cost of that hours flight came to approx £120. Not ideal for circuits - not the most expensive in the UK.

[FullyFlapped]

You're right - not the most expensive in the UK by a long way ...

Leeds is £19.50 per T/G ... others are much more expensive !

FF :ok:

[Paris Dakar]

You are right - Both!

[witchdoctor]

cessan l plate

Most of the commercial guys based at NCL trained outside the area, as there are no CPL training providers in the north east. The nearest I believe is Leeds.

Where do you think they trained?

[Charlie32]

Shropshir lad

Sorry your figures are incorrect. There was a temporary grace period where the club got a discount but this has since been removed

The actual costs are:

£25 for peak landing (in summer most of the time) and £12 T/G or go around
Off peak £18 landing and £9 T/G Go around.

Not difficult to see why training numbers have tailed off, from about 20 PPLs finishing each year to just 12 last year

[HN1708]

It's a sad day when any flying club closes.

Sorry to be such a vulture but does anyone know what they will do with the aircraft and who owns them?

I'm in the market for a PA28.

[Paris Dakar]

HN1708,

The future of the club will be decided at the AGM scheduled for 09/12/04.

[HN1708]

Thanks for the info. I was told that the airport authority had impounded the aircraft. No doubt inaccurate info. I was just curious to know if the planes would be sold off. I know these things take a long time to sort out!

[scubawasp]

The VAT man on training, especially towards professional training is bad enough, and not forgetting the tax on fuel!

But the airports/ aerodromes with visions of Heathrow, seem to forget that without us, there would be no them.

Obviously the cost of running and licensing some of the bigger ones is expensive, but the airport operators do not make it easy for anyone.

People probably think with the amount they spend, the clubs/ schools are making a killing.

Still, its that time of year when the pinch happens, and lets face it, we have all seen better summers.

Lets hope no one else ends up in a similar situation!

[UL730]

HN1708 - you are correct. The aircraft have been impounded and "writs nailed to masts" The airport is owed a very substantial amount - and it was growing daily. Given the aged analysis of creditors I have seen - they have shown forbearance and given ample opportunity for the Club to trade its way out of difficulties or deliver rescue plan.

They are not the only large and voracious creditor hovering presently.

Very sad background to the saga.

[Shropshire Lad]

Charlie32 - thanks for the update on the figures - I was unaware the aircraft had been impounded. This is beginning to sound worse that I thought :(

[Paris Dakar]

As I mentioned in my earlier posting - we must wait for the AGM scheduled to take place on 09/12/04. I however do agree, things don't look good.

[daw]

HN1708 - think you will be joining a long queue of people for the aircraft. Various members have tabled sale and leaseback options at the AGM but this was never agreed. Partly due to bickering over why the club was in the state it was rather than trying to work out a solution going forward. It was also a shame that the committee didn't deem fit to circulate or at least make available in some way ahead of the AGM all of the possible options so that a considered debate could take place.

[martinidoc]

Whilst there is no question that the management of the club has been deficient, the airport authority must share some of the responsibility.

Whilst it is of course true that Newcastle int Airport is a multi-million pound resource, which is made available for PPLs and training, most of the fixed costs associated with this operation arise out of the needs of the commercial sector e.g. ATCO, 2.3KM runways, 5 different approach aids, multi million pound terminal buildings shopping arcades, high level fire cover, security etc.

The fixed costs associated with the GA operation which are essential to their operation are frankly minimal.

It is therefore unfair and unreasonable to expect GA to bear their share of the cost of this operation on a like for like basis, when most of what is there is not necessary.

The airport might have an argument if there was any evidence at all to support the view that GA hindered the commercial operations at Newcastle, but this is simply not the case. GA operations always take second priority to commercial ops, and trainees have to pay the price of the additional holding time both on the ground and in the air, in addition to the landing and navigation charges.

The fact is that GA slots in around the commercials in spare capacity, and indeed often helps controllers maintain their skills in ATC procedures such as SRAs, which the commercials are unwilling to do because of turnaround pressure.

In other words there has been a happy synergy between commercial ops, GA/training and ATC for many years at NCL.

It is sad therefore that the blinkered view of an airport management structure based upo brutal accountants, should have contributed to the downfall of one of aviations oldest institutions. Three years ago, the aero club could not have racked up this debt with the airport, because they did not pay such extortionate charges!

I say again, the management of the aero club has been sadly deficient, largely because it was done by (mainly) well meaning amateur volunteers. Perhaps a happy compromise could be reached whereby some of the management skills available in the airport could help get the aero club back onto a sound operational basis.

Impounding the aircraft achieves little for anyone. Two of the aircraft impounded have prior charges on them from loan companies and the Inland revenue, so the airport will not get anything from these, and the remaining equity is unlikely to settle their debt. It effectively stops all significant revenue to the club, particularly pre-Christmas, which is usually a cash rich time for the club, with present of vouchers being very popular.

The airport should write off the debt, re-structure their charges at a sensible level, and work with the aero club by providing business support, to help them get back to a viable operating position. That would be in everyones interests.

So come on Mr Parkin, why not join the aero club in a joint venture to try and avoid this tragedy?

[HiSpeedTape]

Unfortunately, in his time at Newcastle, Parkin has managed to wreck the lives and livelihoods of the majority of those who work for or at the airport. The current situation at the club is a direct result of his policies. The next group of people who are about to have their livlihoods destroyed are the refuellers and those that work at the fuel facility. There is a case against Parkin just about to go through the courts in the next few days. I wonder if he will live long enough to hear the outcome. I wouldn't be alone in hoping that he gets his soon but I am surprised that with all the malicious intent toward him that it hasn't happened yet.:mad:

[daw]

I don't buy the argument that the airport was to blame. Has there been any discernible loss of custom from the increased prices? As far as I can see NCL Aero was in a dominant market position and for whatever reason didn't take advantage of that.

Whenever I was up there the booking sheets were full and I know that I had to book at least a week in advance to get an aircraft. Also there was nowhere else nearby that you could do your basic training. Yes £120 per hour or whatever it was is a lot of money but it is no different to what other schools charge around the country and many of those face stiff competition.

Consider a bit of basic 101 accounting.......If you charge say £100 plus a landing fee of £15 then surely it is basic budgeting to put aside the £15 as you know you have just collected it on behalf of someone else (ie Mr Parkin). Similarly you know that you have to pay 17.5% to HMC&E. It makes sound financial sense to put aside those monies into a separate account and of course from your detailed budgets you know that the remaining monies will cover your costs and hopefully deliver a bit of a surplus for the members for a rainy day. Me thinks that somewhere Peter robbed Paul which is how the wheels fell off but blame surely can't be placed with the airport.

[cessna l plate]

Witchdoctor.
Pedantic doesn't really cover this attempt at a reply does it???

Does it matter the actual location of the training. My point is that without GA in all its guises, there would be very very few commercial pilots. Let's face it, even a 747 captain with zillions of hours in a log book, will probably have an hour or two in a Cessna 172 there somewhere. Think about it.

This is just another small provincial airport, who have dropped lucky with the advent of the Lo-Co's and suddenly think that they can become the next LHR. Liverpool (where I train) is a wonderful example of this.

Take easy & MOL away, and they will be banging on the door of GA to get some runway useage. Yet every year we suffer the rumour mill that the landing fee discount is being withdrawn and fees will clear £20 a go. Too big for thier boots comes to mind!!!!!

[volvodriver]

So what is the future for these clubs/training organiastions based at provincial airports (sorry - shopping malls) which think they are LHR?
Pertinant at this time of year is the Christmas Present Trial Lesson, which not only keeps the Instuctors in a job for the next 6 months at many of these 'non dedicated training airfields' but also keeps the airplanes there which many rent.
Landing fees must be included in the price of the 'Trial Lesson' which in turn raises the overall price of the 'Lesson' way beyond that which an Airfield outside these restrictions can charge.
Slippy slope.

So, et al, What would you deem to be a fair Landing Fee?


Currently driving nice 240DL in Beige.

VD

[BRL]

Hi guys, I have split off the above post by Volvodriver. Don't want to go too far off the subject regarding the club at Newcastle. :)

[Happyeater]

Well, it sounds like the aircraft have been grounded until the December 9th meeting. No permission for flying was given so, no income for the Club at all now.

What a mess, what a shame.

[CSerpent]

Certainly a long, interesting and indepth opinion there newcastlepilot.

One point that connot be overlooked - is that despite the squandering of what happened of the insurance money after the Duchess and hangar went up, the fact of John Parkin's big plans are wrecking any chance of GA stability at EGNT.

His name is worse than $*!t with all the GA people, refuellers (of who he's terminated BP's contract), Groundstar (oops sorry Swissport) and Servisair.

GA at EGNT is paying the price of EGGD - Parkin's last torture dungeon.. what also has to be remembered is that Parkin is subsidising the low cost airlines at a local authority owned airport (51%) - supposedly illegal under EU law(?) at our expense. Why has no-one actually challenged this is of interest to me?

It is not GAs fault that they want EZY, RYR and BEE to go to the North Terminal - indeed we pay enough of a price holding at E and F or at Stannington and the Bridges for them! GA at NT is paying over a 10-15 fold increase for an airfield that at one time was GA friendly - and according to an article yesterday in the Newcastle Journal still apparantly is!

Also for information - the aero club has 1 plane left not locked down... and the CFI seems to be the only one in the office - and I really do feel for all those about to get the heave-ho :(

[HiSpeedTape]

It has been Parkins avowed intention to destroy GA at NCL. In that he has almost completely succeeded. Do not, for one moment, harbour any thoughts that any other business will be allowed to come in and take over where NAC left off. Parkin has other plans for the area on the southside where the aero club is currently situated and I don't imagine that Private or Training aviation is even in the picture.

[CSerpent]

No doubt about that at all... only Samson, Northumbria Helicopters and the Police Helicopter for him to get rid of now.

Is there anyone with experience of John Parkin from EGGD that wishes to comment?

[CSerpent]

One thing that has to be born in mind is the apparant decision of the landing fees...

The former Chairman-cum-recovery-driver was alleged to have decided to have taken on the discussion with the Airport himself over the landing fees - including that for Samson and Northumbria Helos from what I am led to believe - and the airport jumped at the chance to do as they wished,

As I say this was alleged - what amount of truth is in it I do not know, but I have not heard anything contradictory.

To me in reality the only lifeline available for NAC is Northern Aviation taking over the assets, like they did with Teesside Aero Club.

[Charlie32]

Northern Aviation from Teeside, suggested by CSepernt from EGNV??
The said former committee member it should be recalled was instrumental in purchasing the PA28R at a vastly inflated price, without ever allegedly showing a formal engineering report to the committee. After a purchase price of about £43K a wing rebuild of about £30K for the corroded spars, the aircraft has remained grounded, and is because of malaligned wings probably almost worthless now.
The said committee member also developed a relationship with the vendor, who was subsequently involved in the purchase of a bulldog, which occupied the "slot" previously used by the PA28R on the airfield. The relationship was never mentionned prior to the purchase of the PA28R by NAC.
So do you really believe this is the sort of operation you would want to run NAC?? Personally I think not.

[CSerpent]

I'm not actually at EGNV, I just happen to own a share in a plane that's now based there courtesy Mr Parkin's legalised extortion. :mad: I did all my training at NAC, not TAC or CFS.

I can't comment on what happened when G-NELI was taken on board at NAC - I've flown her several times and she's been fine for me is all I can say. I can however say that Cleveland FS is operating in what seems to be a good state, buoyant and with plenty of bookings.

[FinalsToLand]

All,
Time for me to add a few comments..

Anyway, if GA is to be killed off completely, surely Sampson would be kicking and screaming rather loudly by now?

Not really, G/A related movements at samson generate very little revenue with very often only fuel being delivered, their real money is made within the bizjets // corporate handling sector and g/a is quite often i believe seen as more of a hinderence during busy periods.

The said former committee member it should be recalled was instrumental in purchasing the PA28R at a vastly inflated price, without ever allegedly showing a formal engineering report to the committee

The said former committee member was instrumental in purchasing the PA28R after approval from the aeroclub members by a vote held at an AGM at which the price of the aircraft was made known to all members & i dont think he should be held accountable for the fact that no other committe member or flying member queried the lack of maintenance reports.

Northern Aviation is a very succesfull operation at MME, far more succesfull than NAC proberbally due to the lack of money greedy CFI's and 'associates' fiddling the books to their benefit.

I would like to say before people start slagging off Norther Aviation/Cleveland flying school that i have no personal connections with them however i have been on several occasions and found them to be a far more professional flying school with high standards of flying training, aircraft maintenance and instructors who seem to care about their students more than the amount of money in their wallets, you are always made welcome there unlike NAC which i feel has a very bitter & unwelcoming approach to its customers.

Having been a member at newcastle for over 10 years i have seen it for from strength to strength and my feelings are that this 'diasaster' has been in the making for most of those years and helped along by most of those mentioned in newcastlepilots first post.

Yet again Money and greedyness has settle the fate of a good business.

F.T.L

[martinidoc]

FTL
I think there is one factor about GNELI that you have failed to mention. You are correct in saying that the membership voted to purchase the aircraft, but only "subject to a satisfactory engineering survey". I think the membership were entitled to expect that when purchasing such an expensive item on behalf of the club, the committee would take due diligence in so doing., and treat the purchase as if it was their own money they were spending. As I said at the last but one AGM, in my opinion the committee individually and collectively failed in this matter to safeguard the best interests of the club.
That having been said, I also failed to secure a vote of no confidence in the committee on that precise issue, with about 5 votes difference and about 50 members abstaining, so as has been said elsewhere, the club to some extent has got what it deserves. Nonetheless, a sad state of affairs.
With regard to your comments about greedy CFI and associates. Firstly I should point out that it was the committee that appointed the CFI on the terms and conditions which he enjoys. The CFI (and his associates) have always put in far more work for the club than they needed to. Who comes in and cleans the aircraft on bad weather days, who tries to keep the Bouser working etc. Who through his enthusiasm tries to encourage those who wish to fly to go further, who arranges social fly aways etc etc. I like many have much to be grateful for from the CFI. I don't always agree with him, and no-one is ever perfect, however, he and JC should be singled out for their commitment to NAC over the years. Between them they have kept the club alive, and tried to create a club environement not just a sterile accountant led flying training business. Ironically, it is probably the case that the affairs of the club would not be in such dire straits, had they been more involved in the running of the club, but in recent years they have been explicitly excluded from the decision making process.
As one who is happy to be called both a friend and associate of the CFI (and therefore included in your blanket criticsm), I must also point out, that I have given of my own time for no remuneration, by instructing part time. Contrary to other posts, I have also often flown my own aircraft at my expense to help out by collecting instructors or others, who have ferried club aircraft for maintenance, and I am not alone in this, so have several other club members. I think it very sad that the comments to date have all been so one sided, and none of the hard work and goodwill that has been given by the CFI and instructors has been mentionned.
Finally, remember this, it is the CFI and the intructors and others who stand to lose their livelihood, not you. I wonder what you have ever done for the club??

[martinidoc]

One of the saddest things to me is how the club has come to be a set of disparate cliques. Perhaps NPs recollection of the history explains why. I should add to my above post, I consider myself to have friends in almost all of the cliques, and I often hear both sides of the arguments. All I can say is that criticsm of the instructors is, in my view, unwarranted, and I'm not just talking about the CFI. It has been my priviledge to work with many instructors at the club over the last few years, and I can assure you that each and every one of them gave of their best for their students. They were without exeception a hard working bunch, who contrary to some posts above were certainly not greedy, the pay of most instructors is very poor indeed, and is a wage that most would struggle to bring up a family on.

Above all else what successive committees seem to have failed to do is unite the club in a common purpose, namely to provide flying facilities and training for both students, hirers and private owners alike, coupled with a social programme and facilities, that attract like minded people interested in aviation. That is the tragedy, and in my opinion at the heart of the downfall of the club. It is the structure which has permitted the minority who were either incompetent or dishonest to bring the club to finacial ruin.

I presume, with regard to some of the allegations of dishonesty posted elsewhere, that once the club is in administration the administrator will make a judgement about whether there is any evidence which warrants a police investigation. I like every other honest club member would want any dishonesty brought to light and prosecuted, even though this will not save the club.

[dde0apb]

What a sad state.

I learned to fly at Newcastle, and was impressed by the quality of instruction from Messrs Lister (K & J), Bennett and Corlett, and others. Then I wanted to develop my flying and there was nothing to fly other than relatively tired PA28s. So a friend and I stuck our heads above the parapet, got elected to the committee and tried to get a touring plane to see whether people would stay in the club to tour rather than going off into private groups. maybe the TB-10 was a dog, maybe it wasn't, but all we got for it was grief and hate mail. I kid you not, I got obscene mail through the post to my home address for having implemented what was a committee decision.

Then it was decided the TB-9 should be put up for sale. It was flying more hours than the Duchess, but while this made the TB-9 uneconomic, it was argued that the same number of hours didn't make the Duchess uneconomic. Odd, I thought. Except that there were those who wanted to turn the club into a CPL/IR training establishment. A grand and genuine idea, but not a serious business proposition - ever. With one tired Duchess with a Janitrol heater that cut out, doors that leaked, and a grotty teaching area, we could never have competed with Multiflight.

So the TB-9 was sold for a song; and with the VAT refund the club bought a brand new PA28. Why? Half the price would have bought a 2,000 hour machine with a new engine.

And, month for month the TB-10 flew more hours than the Duchess, but this did not establish the case for a touring plane for those tired of renting stuff with instruments that may or may not have worked from day to day, and pootled along at 95kts.

The achievements I am proud of while on the committee? Getting a decent radio fit into G-BUIF. And proving that a touring aeroplane was commercially viable, even if the committee didn't feel able to continue having one at that time (no, no THAT one I grant you, but it proved a point.)

Whatever the whys and wherefores of the the Arrow, I flew it a bit and until it went U/S it was a damned good little plane, and one I would have flown a lot more.

The final straw for me was having a plane booked 2 months in advance for three days away, and being bumped the day beforehand because 6 of the 7 planes were u/s; and someone else had been wrongly booked in the column before me.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, so I called Cleveland Flying School, newly bought by Northern Aviation. And yes, I could have a plane at 24 hours notice, for 3 days. Was it alright that it was only a C152? Well, it was one just refurbished by Marshall's, looked great and everything worked. Check out - yes we'll arrange one for you. What more could I want?

Living half way in between EGNT and EGNV it was a no brainer. My membership at Newcastle has almost lapsed, and I have been flying at Teesside for a year and a bit now. Nothing is too much trouble for the staff there, the planes are refuelled before you go, they are clean, the instruments work, they are even pulled out of the hangar for you if you want to leave early.

Poor old Newcastle Aero Club has, IMHO, lost the internal battle it has been flighting with itself for years. Some people simply couldn't face the fact that the gentlemen's club which had existed there into the 70s and 80s was dead, that people don't go to airport clubs to eat average food any more, yet despite this money was poured into facilities in the clubhouse. In the meantime, no one could grasp the nettle and run the flying side as a business. To this day I don't know why - the reasons could range from innocent inability to communicate and organise, a lack of time for those on the committee, through to far worse. I do think that the club wasted thousands of pounds of unnecessary legal actions.

When member operated clubs work well, they are fantastic - look at Sherburn for example, and the gliding clubs mentioned in an earlier post. When they start killing each other it's only a matter of time. And it seems that time has come.

And lastly, Mr Parkin's salary in the year to 31/12/03 was, according to companies house, £290,000.

The airport wages bill in that year was down from just under 16 million to just over 14 million, turnover up by 1 million to 40 million, and profit after tax up from 7.8M to 11.5M

In the face of those figures I don't think Mr Parkin need worry about GA too much. I suspect we are a distraction from his core business; he needs to let Samson carry on since they keep business aviation away from his precious stands on the north side and if he closed that he would face the wrath of the ERG at the CAA. But he can claim he is making provision for GA through Samson, and that's all he needs to do.

Any chance Eshott could get a licence? Come on Storm, could you do that?

[Genghis the Engineer]

An aside. I've no particular personal issues with regard to Newcastle - I've used the airport a couple of times and found it rather expensive, but extremely friendly and professional (although it was fairly clear that senior management didn't really want GA).

But this thread is a remarkable example of a sensitive and difficult subject being tackled on Pprune with great politeness and sensitivity - nothwithstanding that some people are clearly (and understandably) rather heated on various aspects of the subject.

My complements gentlemen for an example of Pprune at it's best.

G

[DRJAD]

Might I echo Genghis' compliments?

I have been following this sad saga with interest, not least because I am about to move from North Yorkshire (where I am a member at Sherburn) to another part of the country, where I shall have to find other facilities for hiring aircraft.

The detail clearly given has been most helpful as a salutary warning about how things might go awry.

[Paris Dakar]

Whatever the reasons are that have led us to this sad state of affairs - I would like to pass on some personal thanks before it may be too late.

KL - I enjoyed my first flying lesson at Newcastle so much and you made me feel perfectly at ease - one of the nicest hours I have ever spent in an aircraft.

JL - Thank you for the checkrides - and who knows perhaps if I had been a few years younger and had a good deal more money in the bank then I may have pursued a career in aviation - you always thought I should.

Stuart Knowles - Thank you for the checkrides too and I hope life flying the big toys keeps you happy.

JC - What can I say? If it wasn't for John I wouldn't be flying today. After a lay-off for a few years it was great to meet up with you earlier this year - we never manged to get our 'little flight' booked but who knows?

Dr W - Here is a man who ensures that Pilots never have to pay a penny more than they need to for their medicals - thank you.

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

Just to add a little to this. I can't really get involved with any sort of factual information on the club, no more than has already been posted anyway.

I'm very upset to see what is happening. It's been on the cards for a while and i'm one of many, i'm sure, that has personally warned MD (ex chairman) to his face that what he was doing was no good. Did he listen? He must have known better.

In terms of thanking people. Yes Dr W, JL, JC, Andreas, John Lamberton, Jonathan Charlton, Ian Chambers, Les Bates and of course MA, thanks for your help in my training for PPL in low hours!

Thanks really go to JC though, who day after day is there at the end of the phone with his individual manner that makes/made the place. Some people dont know how to take him but once he knows you he's great. Thanks again John, you're a star! I've shared his frustration with ongoings up there many a time to know that all he wanted was what was best for the members, did he ever get that? I dont think he did!

I'd love to see all this fixed and put right so we can continue the good bits and scrap the bad bits, but realistically I don't think thats going to happen. I think its gone too far :(

Posting under my real name, not a club aircraft for once ;)

Ian Bowden.

[Paris Dakar]

Well said Ian,

Kind regards,

Andy West
(sorry JC that should read Air Cadet West! - take care Group Captain - I hope we can meet up soon)

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

This really is sad you know, is there NOTHING we can do? :{

Hope the guys get to read this anyway, maybe i'll print it all off and see they get it!

Ian.

[Paris Dakar]

Ian,

In short - I don't really know! I didn't think things were as bad as they actually are until I attended the AGM.

It seems so wrong that when we are a year off celebrating our 80th year in existence the whole thing potentially looks like going t**s-up!

I keep hoping in the back of my mind that someone is going to come up with a 'cunning plan' next Wednesday but in reality I'm not convinced that will happen - we may have gone too far to change things now.

I'm proud to be a member of NAC, I'm proud that Newcastle is my home base and if it all comes to an end next week then that will be very sad indeed

[dde0apb]

I keep hoping in the back of my mind that someone is going to come up with a 'cunning plan' next Wednesday but in reality I'm not convinced that will happen - we may have gone too far to change things now.
I suspect all may not be lost. Flying seems to attract entrepreneurs, and once the dust has settled, if administration really is where this is going, there will still be planes, and there will still be people in the North East wanting to fly.

I suspect someone will make the administrators an offer for some planes: not all; UZ, WK and RT if they're feeling cheap and IF, JV and RH if they want youth (or it may just go on engine hours) and set up a fixed wing flying school again.

What will be missing is the "club" bit, but maybe if all the bickering stops, and someone runs the flying bit for profit, and as a business, then putting in some social facilities to encourage more people to spend money on his aeroplanes will make business sense. They could even call it Newcastle Aero Club....

It would be nice to think the name lives on.

BTW, the club owns the Norton Griffiths Trophy which is at Northern Goldsmiths, and since my grandfather won it twice I'm interested in what happens to it!

And indeed even as I was writing this, the news about the White Knight was being posted....

[TOPJET973K]

Hi

All isn't lost!

Elia WILL run it as a business and not as a "gravy train" which is what has happened for years.

The "club" bit to Elia is as important as the flying side of things - I like his plan and although I dont "crunch numbers" - -this is the ONLY plan that will save our club.

Cheers

[dde0apb]

A shocking thought that there might be non-Piper planes on the fleet ;) and a mixture of manufacturers..... good idea though, esp the P28R :)

[TOPJET973K]

Gentleman

Just reading some earlier postings, lets ALL stick together on this one, individual criticism is no use now... mistakes HAVE been made but should the club be saved then these mistakes will NEVER be made again.

Doc M made a few valid points, as did others but come on guys - we all want the club to survive but lets remain positive and come along to give Elia a chance to air his proposal.

Cheers gang

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

Hey this does sound good I must admit, is it real though?

I'll believe it when I see it, if it is the case, great! It's seems the only option available to us now.

GWK

[TOPJET973K]

Hi everybody

G-WK - I'm pleased you are more upbeat today after reading the proposal!

I have just spoken to Elia and everything is in place at his end so we are really waiting for the legal people to get their arses into gear - all being well it could be as early as next week, Elia will be at AGM so lets rally for him.

Just a thought, I'm sure there will be certain members of our club that would love to see this proposal fall flat on its face - my message to those people - "find another club"..... it's a case of "if I cant have it then nobody else can" - make no mistake, these people exist in our club and they know exactly who I mean.

Like I said - we ALL need to be together with the aim of backing Elia and saving our club.

Thanks

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

Yes indeed, I was a bit upset last night after thinking the situation through properly for the 1st time...and realising what it REALLY means.

Lets get this proposal to everyone we can, get everyone there on Thursday and see what we can do! The prospects are good!

G-WK

[Paris Dakar]

I haven't read the proposal yet but any club member who wants to see a new venture fail should take up a new hobby or move to another area to do their flying.

[Charlie32]

I hope this is not just a hoax.
On the face of it sounds too good to be true.
But if it is really genuine maybe our prayers are answered.
Aussie Air or Florida?? Any info on this company?

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

Exactly my other concern Charlie32, I can find nothing on this company in my limited looking around.

Fingers crossed though!

GWK ;)

[Charlie32]

Have had a look myself, and whilst unable to find anything on Aussie Air, I have found one mention of an Elia Golfin with the Lynch Air Flight Academy in Daytona Florida. But thats the only info I can come up with, otherwise drawn a blank. Doesn't give any info about his role in that outfit.

[CSerpent]

I too match Ian's sentiment. I completed my PPL in less than a year and have now held it for just over 2 - solely at Newcastle Aero Club.

It is with the instructors that I managed to get there.

I personally will miss the instruction of all those Ian listed above, and although it was Jonathan Charlton (now at Loganair as an FO) who did the majority of my training work to assist in completing my PPL, Keith still took the test, did my complex checkout on G-NELI, and was about to take my IMC test before the club folded. (I've now lost I suspect the remaining money I paid upfront for the IMC course). My thanks also go to Les Bates (for coming in in the evenings when he could have his feet up watching the football) for doing my IMC course; John Corlett aka The Sarge, for the checkouts when needed; Jon "Schumacker" Lamberton (as he ended up getting called but a few of us for his taxiing); Ian Chambers for nearly getting my IMC completed before the worst happened; Andreas Bakolis - who didn't end up getting to Blackpool in G-NELI that weekend!

One thing I would say though is Danielson needs to be called to account over his activities - for sure!

I too would like to know more about Aussie Air as I can't seem to find much on them either!

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

If thats the case well hooray! Of course we're all worried as it just seems like such a change of fortunes (albeit a very good one)!

Can't wait for more information!

GWK :D

[TOPJET973K]

WK!

I'm actually typing away int the internet lounge at the airport before my long haul flight to Exeter!

It's going to happen - he is very confident and that bodes well.

Like I said earlier, people WILL to throw a spanner in the works because what they cant have for themselves they WILL ruin for everybody else - I know who they are and they know who they are....

Cheers

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

God help them! If I come across somone who is obviously trying to spoil it for us all i'll have some very harsh things to say!

We live in hope, I think I speak for us all when I say thanks for keeping us informed and will look forward to more developments!

WK!

[Paris Dakar]

I agree with WK - many thanks for the postings keeping us up to date.

I have to say that I did have a slight 'sinking feeling' when I tried to Google for some additional info on the outfit.

Roll on the 9th.

[mike halls]

Well What A Story,

I have known elia for quite some time and what A great
thing to happen to the AERO CLUB.

I must admit I just spoke to him and he is very excited about the
aero club and taking it forward.Apparently His partner's are going to the club on saturday to have a look at the final numbers, being
the debt owed by the club,lets hope it ain't as high as what they are saying.

Another big issue is that will the airport give him the same lease that has been around for donkey years or will they try to screw
him over.We all must remember that the club is in extremely
bad shape because a few individuals helped themselves over the years and basically robbed the members.
I also found out that MR ALAN COULSON HAS LEFT AND I BET HE WILL NEVER SHOW HIS FACE EVER AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THERE ARE A FEW MORE BUT THAT I SUPPOSE IS IN THE PAST BUT
WE MUST HELP AND MAKE THE CLUB SURVIVE.

THE DEBT IS BAD LETS HOPE THIS WORKS OUT FOR EVERYBODY
SO WE CAN ENJOY GOING TO THE CLUB WITHOUT ANY BLOODY
COMMITEE MEMBERS.

LETS HOPE WE HAVE SOME NEWS ON SATURDAY.

SAFE FLYING ALL

MIKE

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

Indeed Mike, I know I have everything crossed here on some good news! How great it would be!

GWK - With his eyes peeled for more info!

[mike halls]

Hello Guys

I just got some info on the club apparently some legal
people will be at the club on saturday to look at the books
and the debt that the club has.

The big problem is really how much debt has the club got
before this takeover goes forward.I really think that if it is
in over it's head who would take it over.

I know fingers are being pointed now but I hope this is not
to late to save the club.There is a lot of blame here and if the
club does not get taken over by Elia due to this hugh debt
then I suppose everyone should look at the commitee
and ask them where all the money has gone and what they
did with it.

It would be a sad day in aviation.
safe flying all

mike

[CSerpent]

Thanks for the info Mike..

I bet Danielson isn't there! But he has a lot to answer for!

[mike halls]

Hey Guys,

I spoke with Elia again today and he said that his new website
will be ready within the next 3-5 days so lets give him
until then for all his company details.

I also heard that the AGM meeting on the 9th has been
cancelled is that true????
can anyone shed some light on this one.
we need to save the club.
safe flying ALL

MIKE

[Paris Dakar]

Mike,

I haven't heard that it's been cancelled.

The 'Group Captain' (see my earlier post) rang me to tell me when the previous one was cancelled so if I get to hear anything I will let you all know.

Lets hope that some good progress is made over the weekend :)

It may be a very Merry Christmas after all :ok:

[martinidoc]

I hope Elia and his "legal team" has more success in getting financial information out of th club than the membership!

The problem appears to be due to records being scattered between various committee and former committee members houses and various computers (not all on site), coupled with a complex accounting system between the two separate companies, Aero Club and Aero Engineering. It is doubtful whether any committee member other than perhaps one or two ever had a full financial picture, particulalry since not all club committee members were directors of both companies.

The financial recovery plan presented at the AGM was put together based upon the research of a qualified accountant member [LH](who incidentally gave willingly much of her own valuable time for the club pro bono), but she was unable to access several key pieces of information, and had to resort to making best guesstimates to calculate cash flow and profit/loss forecasts.

The best guess of the total debts in October was somewhere between £150K and £180K (including the scheduled loans on two aircraft). It was unlikely, even at that time, whether there were sufficient assets to meet creditor liability. With no income and continued regular expenditure since the aircraft were impounded, that picture must have worsened significantly.

[neutron]

Thanks for that Matinidoc.

I would agree with all you have said. The current situation is so frustrating - there being many people who are prepared to support various rescue plans - who are all unable to get any accurate financial information so can't move forward.

The sooner an administrator is appointed the better. At least then we will have someone to negotiate with. If the remaining committee member won't bite the bullet and do this, then you can be assured that one of the many creditors will.

There is no choice. The club is trading illegally & every day that goes past just makes the debt bigger.

[mike halls]

The debt of the aero club is extremely bad below is a breakdown
from what I got in Elia's proposal.

airport landing fees 42,000
tax department 20,000
air bp 52,000
aircraft loans 80,000
sundries 2,000

Well what do you think guys just incredible how the commitee
and the chairman have screwed it up for all the members.
some storys I heard were the way they were all paying thenselves and the salaries they were on just incredible.

The blame lies somewhere and it ain't the workers in the place.
Lets just see where Elia and the legal people go this week
just hope the debt ain't that bad or we will just loose the club
because of these people that used the club as a gravy train
over the last few years :mad: :mad:

other than that people
safe flying

mike

[CSerpent]

If anyone's interested there's a page article in today's Journal. Page 7, however does not appear to be on the icnewcastle.com website.

[TOPJET973K]

Hi everybody

Martindoc is correct - the membership have had NO success in obtaining anything!!

Various "rescue packages" simply can't meet the financial criterea needed to save the club.

Elia, with a combination of sale of aircraft replaced by his own fleet coupled with some financial investment should be good enough to satisfy the necessary people we hope.

It is really heartning to see people rallying together - we ALL want the club to survive, however an "overheard" telephone conversation between an "ex chairman" and one of his pathetic followers indicated that some people are willing to try and throw a spanner in the works, this I find abhorrent - its a case of "we can't have it so nobody else can"....

Heads up folks.

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

You what?! Let me at him! Honestly some people make your blood boil!

Cant wait to see if it all works. Spoke to JC at the club today, he said they had been reading this thread earlier this morning.

GWK

[splitneedles]

to let everyone know elia golfins website is WWW.SPEIGNER.COM/AUSSIE note this web site is under construction.
I have flown with elia before in deland Florida the list of aircraft that he has sent in his proposle is just a fraction of his flite most have new interiors and paint. Elia is down to earth and is true to his word---- expect good changes at the club.

hi everyone

dont use the link that has been posted as it does not work to get it to work you will have to type it in on search bar

[TOPJET973K]

Hello agian

Just had a lengthy chat with Elia and he remains up beat and extremely positive.

I'm really curious as to why certain "ex chairman" appear to be "uncomfortable" with the appointment of a different solicitor to handle things for the Aero Club.

I sincerely believe the decision was correct NOT to go with the solicitors appointed by our recently departed chairman - but why are other "ex chairman" so keen to continue with them?

I use the word "uncomfortable" because telephoning the ex secretary and virtually "begging" him not to change does set an alarm bell off.

Anyway, let them argue to their hearts content - we potentially have a bright new future ahead and only a true loyal member would back such a future.

Regards

[Happyeater]

Well, without counting chickens etc., this looks like a positive development. I would urge the membership to attend the AGM, look at the proposal and if its as real as it seems, then make, and fully support, the change.

I would hope that the plans include keeping the people who make the Newcastle Aero Club run (JC, Andreas etc) it is vital that those who work long and hard are retained and rewarded.

[TOPJET973K]

Happyeater.

Yes, it is real mate.

Please please please - everybody get to the club to support this proposal, its vital.

I personally am not privy to the finer points of the proposal but the likes of JC, Andreas et al will around I'm sure, thats if JC doesn't retire for the 12th time!!!!

Regards

Hi everybody

I\'m just laughing to myself - our "user names" for PPRUNE, I\'m damn sure I know who the Aero Club people are but I\'m trying to put a user name to a face!!!!

All part of the fun I suppose... :8

Regards

[urdy gurdy]

do you think the quiz will still run? how was exeter? find any mike india lima fox?

[Paris Dakar]

I would imagine that the AGM will be even busier than the last one - anybody want to contact the airport manager and ask him if we can have exclusive use of the EGNT departure lounge - we may need the space?

To those who don't want to back the venture - Carlisle is an hour away, Durham Tees Valley 40 minutes away and Eshott half an hour. Happy flying ;)

[TOPJET973K]

Mr HG

The monthly Thursday quiz will probably still operate, if the members want it then it will still happen.

Exeter was great, lovely cabin crew on outward detail....

The Mike India Lima Foxtrot situation was "reasonable" - it just depends on when they go from Mike India Lima Foxtrot to Oscar Lima Delta!!!

Gentleman

Nice posting from Paris Dakar - people who won't back our plan need to know where to fly :ugh:

It might not be a bad idea to contact John Parkin - he is very aware of Elia's proposal as they have been in dialogue. I would be happy to sit out on the apron if it all works out for the best.

Regards

[neutron]

Just looked up the telephone number given on the Aussieair website.It belongs to Lynch Air in Florida.

http://www.lynchair.com/air/index.htm

Can someone explain the connection?

[TOPJET973K]

Neutron!

Not sure what the connection is on that one :confused:

Cheers

M

[carbheat]

Been following this thread from the beginning.We've all learned a great deal from the openness of the contributors,of which quite a few seem close to the action( or should that be inaction of the officers of the club).
The rescue proposal sounds great if it occurs, but the agreement of Parkin to the transfer of operator would be essential.I wonder how easily that will be secured?
Here's hoping!!!

See you all on the Ninth.


Do you think we should have an unofficial Ppruners night where we all wear badges with our usernames? ;)

[dde0apb]

I would be really careful dissing former committee members left right and centre; it's too easy to let conspiracy theories run away with all of you.

When I was on the committee, so far as I know, no-one was doing anything illegal, most people were working very hard for the club. Some were working in different directions than others, but most if not all had the club's best interests at heart.

Here's are some examples:


I wanted to diversify the fleet into other makes, since I thought it would give members more options, more flexibility and better experience. Others - KL included - thought that was a really bad idea since they felt pilots would not be brave enough to change types, and it would introduce currency problems.
I wanted to have a look at how we did currency, feeling that the 28 days on type rule was too restrictive. So that the TB-9 and PA28 were not interchangeable. Others felt this was not a good idea.
I wanted to introduce a "short and grass strips" course, but others weren't interested
I wanted to concentrate on "the flying side" but others felt we still had to cater for keeping "the social side" going and the people there happy.


None of this is conspiracy, but it is a sympton of a "business" which has no organised direction, and which will, when things get tough, very quickly feel it.

What has happened since I left I do not know, but I rather doubt that anyone on the committee was paying themselves a salary (unless they were an instructor, which I continually argued should disqualify someone from being a director of the company.) Anway, on the margins that existed in 1998 or so, the club could barely afford to pay the instructors and the woman behind the counter, let alone the directors.

With the flying rates as they were recently, I would imagine that it would be possible to rack up a significant loss even in the best run company! Another flying school could have rented NELI and sub-rented it to their own customers and made a profit!

So - in summary - while I can not comment at all on whether or not there has been any kind of inappropriate activity - all I want to say is that in the absence of any real leadership, and any strategic direction, it would have been possible to balls things up by sheer inattention and lack of organisation. It wouldn't have needed anything illegal!

[dde0apb]

What I was trying to get at was, if the committee recently was anything like it was when I was on it, there will have been some on it who knew more and did more than others. I was secretary for a while, and did what I could, but being someone who was only up at the club more than once or twice a month, there were others who did far more. So it would have been possible for some members of the committee to take actions of which others were completely unaware. And if they had wanted the rest of the committee to not find out, then that would not have been impossible either.

Anyway, I found I was attending committee meetings, and getting grief, and not flying; so I stopped beating my head on a wall and went flying instead!

[TOPJET973K]

Gentleman

I must point out that in my last few postings I refer to "our recently departed chairman" - please read "our recently departed acting chairman"


Regards

[Paris Dakar]

''With the flying rates as they were recently, I would imagine that it would be possible to rack up a significant loss even in the best run company!''

£186 for one hour dual and 5 T&Gs you're having a laugh! Did the £66 L/fess get paid to the airport - I guess not!

If this club is to survive then there is a real culture shock ahead for some folk. Yes, I've sat in the club house whilst the 'elders' have smirked at my USA log book but I put my money where my mouth is and I fly from EGNT - if it wasn't for the help and support of certain people on the books of NAC then that would never happen.

See you on the 9th!:D

[carbheat]

I spoke to a longstanding member a few days ago who complained of the number of people who, as he put it, "sat on their hands " at AGMs when the voting occured.
How can an ordinary member like me vote when I am not given the info to make a judgement?It has seemed at times that AGMs were a public display of hornlocking by secretive cabals.
This is an honest view by someone who just wants to go to the place,pay my money and fly.:(

May a new dawn for GA at EGNT be the result of this very public and unholy shakedown.

[HiSpeedTape]

Well, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but has any of this been run past Parkin yet? I don't get the feeling that he will entertain much interest in any proposals to resurrect any form of club or FTO. I may be wrong (probably am) but it has proved impossible to base any new aircraft at NCL due to "lack of space" and, "cost of delays to commercial traffic". Eh? If he doesn't want a single group aircraft that may only fly once or twice a week, what chance does a commercial training operation stand? Call me pessimistic but I think there's two hopes for this :(
He's still smarting from his bruising encounter in the courts. Add to that that he's blown £4.6m on what could turn out to be a white elephant fuel farm and I don't think he's going to be feeling too charitable for a while.

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Ref Ncle Aero Club.

I am a member of the above and would firstly echo the praise given to the already mentioned members of the stalwart training staff,after spending a lot of time and not to mention a large amount of money learning to fly, I think it is time we members support the club stop bickering and get on with it.

If there is a question of misdirected funds," Do something about it"

Regards....

[daw]

carbheat - I couldn't agree more. I have yet to see anything from the club about the various "rescue plans". I would love to pore over each scenario in the comfort of my own home rather than turning up to a meeting where all that is going to be achieved is bickering and bleating about the wrongs of the past. Who cares I say. If you want a club going forward then look at the options available, get rid of the people associated with the demise and move forward.

As an aside is there any reason why folks on this thread appear to see the new propsal as the be all and end all of salvation for the club? Wasn't there an offer for a sale and leaseback that has been on the table for months now? I would have thought that if what people wanted was a "club" then this sort of proposal would make more sense than backing a commercial FTO.

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

Daw,

That proposal fell through a while ago. This is the only one i'm aware of thats on the table for the offering. To be totally honest I think it's a damn good idea to do away with the whole comittee idea. This appears to be where all the problems have been.

We need to move on and move up, and offering commercial training etc is a pretty good idea I reckon.

My 2p worth...G-WK

[martinidoc]

Don't want to sound too pesimistic Topjet, but i gather elia and his legal team were not seen on saturday as you predicted.

I,m also informed that elia does not actually own Lynch Aviation academy, but did work there.
I hope your 200% accuracy doesn't take a knocking!!

[daw]

As someone about to tackle a career change and dive headfirst into commercial training I hope he has done his market research. From my research there is a significant level of excess capacity amongst the commerical FTO's. Many are discounting to get numbers up. It is a very different beast to the traditional plain vanilla PPL/IMC club or school. The choices involved in which commercial FTO you train at are not limited to simple choices such as proximity to your home. Other factors such as tacit links/networks to future employers to name just one need to be factored in as well. What the future will hold for these FTO's with the proposed new co-pilots licence is also a source of much debate.

Good luck to whatever or whom ever comes of it. Would be a shame to lose GA at NCL although I still can't help feeling that a not for profit "group like" setup would be the best approach for the majority of the members who want to self fly.

[neutron]

Been doing a bit of research. Mr Golfin has registered various AussieAir companies in Florida around August but being all new companies - no results. Have a look at the link.

http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cornamelis.exe

Re my previous URL link - Click on Corporation Enquiy then Name List and enter Aussie

[HiSpeedTape]

Con Artist warning!:suspect:
Look, I've been a member since '79. This looks well dodgy to me. Is this Elia bloke going to pay back those of us who donated amounts of money following the pleading letter to help the club recover? Or has that gone down the swannee as well?

[joolietvikta]

Martinidoc:

I note wth interest your thinly disguised sarcastic swipe at TOPJETs information. I for one am grateful that some members are getting off their butts and trying to assist a rescue for the club.

I also note your previous self plaudit for the free work you have done for the aero club (and no doubt charity and medical science to boot!).
I would be grateful therefore, if you would care to tell the club members on this forum WHEN and how much you and YOUR CLIQUE have assisted the aero club by paying for hangarage for the jet provost and navajo both prior to the current difficulties and NOW???

[CSerpent]

<quote HiSpeed Tape>
Con Artist warning!
Look, I've been a member since '79. This looks well dodgy to me. Is this Elia bloke going to pay back those of us who donated amounts of money following the pleading letter to help the club recover? Or has that gone down the swannee as well?
</quote>

Hi HST

I think the point to remember here is, that is it's if he chooses to take over the Aero Club as The Newcastle-upon-Tyne Aero Club Limited, or whether an act of taking over the assets by a new company happens, allowing the old company to be closed.

IMHO.. if he takes it over in the former route then technically the liability is still there to pay back the debt unless agreed in paperwork otherwise. If he takes over in the latter route, there is likely no comeback on him to cover the loans made to the Aero Club.

It's not conning, it's just a business fact and it happens no doubt every week in this country.

[martinidoc]

TJ
Sorry if I caused offence, about the 200% certainty, however, there is only one thing that I am 100% certain about and that is that I am never 100% certain or correct about anything.

I know that you have the best interests of the club at heart, and I really do hope that your recovery plan suceeds. I do however have honestly held reservations about the likelihood of this bid being a realistic option, and I just hope that it isn't a hoax, which ends dissuading any other plans, and we end up with nothing. Let me make it clear if this is the best proposal and is proved to be genuine I will wholeheartedly support it, I certainly do not want to see any realistic proposal fall flat.

It is hardly surprising that given the recent train of events at NAC, that I treat anything and anybody with a healthy degree of suspicion, particularly if prima facie the proposals seem to be too good to be true. I think it is therefore right and proper to voice my concerns, so that hopefully you proceed with great caution.

JV
I appear to have upset you, by defending myself and other instructors against unwarranted accusations of greed levelled at us in previous posts. One is of course always at a disadvantage, when defending oneself against an anonymous contributor. I answer your questions therefore not because I believe that you deserve a reply, but rather because I believe that the membership of NAC does.

With regard to the PA31, I can confirm that hangarage is paid to the airport authority. That the aircraft was hanagerd for commissioned urgent engineering work (a serious water leak with potentially very serious consequences for the instrumentation and avionics) to be done. Since the club aircraft have been impounded and the airport authority have refused to permit the club aircraft to be placed in the hangar (presumably to try and ensure that they have first charge over the club aircraft) it has rested in the club hangar by agreement, and any fees owing the club will be paid. This arrangement was made by another member of the PA31 group, and as a club member, I would not support the continued hangarage of the PA31 if required for the club aircraft. The PA31 will be moved out as soon as the club aircraft are released by the Airport authority, but in the meantime the club is generating income out of space it cannot use in any other way. This also assists other club members who are private owners by releasing the pressure on the Bellman, which is where the PA31 has a designated space.

With regard to the JP (of which I am only 1 of 20 members and not a director), an agreement was reached between a former aero club chairman and the chairman of the JP group regarding the hangarage. I was not party to that agreement, but I believe that hangarage fees are paid. I regret that I am unable to give you any figures as I am not involved in the administration of the JP. I suggest that you ask either NM or KL for the figures involved.
ICM:(

[Charlie32]

Whilst I sympathise with doc's desire to defend himself, aren't all the recent posts getting slightly off the point and delving into the relatively trivial nitpicking which in itself has been so devisive for the club.

Do we know if the club has actually gone formally into administration or not yet? Presumably a court order will be needed.

Contrary to a previous rumour, it is my understanding that the proposed AGM WILL go ahead on Thursday, albeit sadly with no bar service.

[BigStu]

NO BAR SERVICE!?

[TOPJET973K]

Hi everybody

Thanks to Martinidoc for comments.

CSerpant - I hear exactly where you are coming from and I'm sure that issue re: donations will be examined fully.

Great news in tonights Evening Chronicle re: Elia's proposal - really good write up, very positive indeed.

I really do understand how people are treating this proposal with a pinch of salt if members are not aware of certain aspects.

I speak with Elia on a very regular basis and the man is desperate to save our club from ruin - he's a "members" guy, loves the family side of flying where "Dad goes flying & Mum sits at the bar getting drunk"...:)

It is unfortunate at present that all members are not privy to his proposals but I myself have read the draft copy in full and without damning any other offer which may or may not be tabled, this is the most complete offer that could be tabled. A mixture of a cash injection and a new fleet.

I will do my utmost to keep you all posted as and when I am told anything else.

Regards

PS - I wish we could all use our proper names!
:cool:

PPS: BigStu - I thought you would mention the bar, how do you think I fell....:{

[TOPJET973K]

Ladies & Gentleman

The metting scheduled for Thursday 9th December 2004 WILL go ahead as planned contrary to some reports.

Meeting as normal Thursday 9th December 2004

Thank you.

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Evening One and All

Can anybody shed any light on the rumour that all our comittee have now resigned ?

Regards...

On a personal note "Stu "how can you think of more drink after
Dublin......

[dde0apb]

Just out of interest, why does the proposed rescuer of the club need to bring a new - N registered having to be transferred on to the G - fleet? The club does have planes; or maybe he is intended to let the Newcastle Aero Club Ltd go under and then start again afresh....

I know IF is in pieces, but it's basically an OK plane with decent radios; UZ and WK are old and tired; and what has happened to RT? And RH, although mortgaged is decent enough, as is JV.

Not that changing the fleet is a bad thing; it just seems a slightly strange thing to do. Granted a C152 is cheaper to run, but will annoy Mr Parkin's 737s more on finals than a PA28.

[mike halls]

Hello fellow ppruners,

Well this topic has been firing the more people getting involved
really has help dramatically.

topjet973 how are you???

Just to shed some light on this whole thing, I really think
that Elia will look into this very carefully before he goes
forward with the proposal.
I believe that tomorrow the club goes to the administrators
so really Elia's team have not had any time with them to make
a proposal on thursday due to the lack of time.If I was in his
position you would have to look at all the supposed debt
first, before I made a statement. Who knows he may decide
to give his proposal before he really has had a chance to look
at the books.
WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND AND MAYBE SOMEONE CAN EXPLAIN
HOW A CLUB TURNING OVER MORE THAN 450 QUID A YEAR
FALL INTO ADMIN,JUST SEEMS VERY STRANGE THAT EVERY TIME
I HAVE FLOWN I PAY MY LANDING FEE'S BUT WHO IS THE PERSON AT THE CLUB RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL OF THIS.
THE CHAIRMAN HAS JUST RUN OFF, THERE ARE PLENTLY OF QUESTIONS TO BE MADE.???
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE AIRPORT WOULD LET THE BILL GET SO HIGH,SOMETHINK VERY SUSPICIOUS.
ALSO CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN ABOUT THE FUEL BILL IS IT REALLY
THE AERO CLUB OR IS IT LITTLE WINGS OR THE NEWCASTLE
FLIGHT SCHOOL.
I FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THE AERO CLUB OWES THAT MUCH BUT,FACT'S ARE FACTS.
I FEEL THAT ALL THE MEMBERS SHOULD BEING ASKING WHERE
HAS ALL THE MONEY GONE,THEY HAVE THE RIGHT,I BELIEVE THAT
CRIMINAL CHARGES ARE GOING TO BE MADE.
SAFE FLYING ALL
MIKE

[MetOffice]

If the club is in administration, Thursday's meeting will be a waste of time, indeed it may that all locks will be changed and entry to the club's premises barred.

The administrator has total control of the club's affairs and he, not the membership decides how to progress matters. Due to the total disarray, this may take some considerable time.

[TOPJET973K]

Hello everybody

Mike - yes mate, I'm doing really well!
Really enjoy my daily chat with Elia and him keeping me up to date with events - getting to know the guy well!

It is a tragedy what has happened to our club but myself and all the other members hope the a "Phoenix from the ashes" happens!

Without going into the blame culture, if an individual/s has/have been acting in an inappropriate way then yes - I agree that criminal charges should be brought against those concerned but time will tell and I'm certain that every member will echo my thoughts.

Lets ALL pull together on this one and lets ALL be strong and see what good can come out of this, and if my postings etc help in any way then I will feel have done my little bit to help.

I'm tired now so will hopefully talk to you soon Mike without these "callsigns" we use on PPRUNE!!!
:)

Good night all

[HiSpeedTape]

The airport allowed the bill to escalate beyond the club's ability to repay it because they saw it was a means to an end. End achieved, mission accomplished. Right, who's next? Come on all you dreamers wake up and smell the rat in the kitchen will you. Please snap out of it. Ok, I'm a sceptic but this Elia bloke has just incorporated 3 companies in FL only as recently as August this year. So recently in fact that he has not had time to get his website set up yet and now he's going to come over here and set up another company? Come on, get real. I can feel the hairs rising on the back of my neck already!:rolleyes:

[nacker barslob]

A good reason to turn up on thursday perhaps to hear what the administrator has to say?? if nothing else

[MetOffice]

Not only has Mr Golfin started 3 companies in August, within the last 2 years he's started another 6 all listed below:

The new companies started August

Aussie Air
Aussie Aircraft Leasing
Aussie Air Holdings

The previous 6 and their status

CAE Avaition International - Vol Dissolution
Transatlantic Holding Services - Admin Dissolution
Atlantic Shore Enterprises - Admin Dissolution
The Isis Medi Corporation - Vol Dissolution
World Continental - Active since 110304 No results

and finally

The Pilot Training Academy Florida - Vol Dissolution 190304

This company is the one he mentions in the first line of his new website!

While we are on the subject of his website, the address and contact details belong to Lynchair - I rang Lynchair about the website and Mr Golfin's involvment with the company. This was their reply:-

'Mr Golfin did work for Lynchair, however he is no longer involved with the company. He has no authority to use our details on his website. Thank you for bringing this to our attention'.

I asked did they know what Mr Golfin was doing now.

'I believe he is trying to set up a flight training orginisation at a nearby airfield'.

Doesn't all the above make even the most optimistic person have doubts about Mr Golfin's intentions?

[Paris Dakar]

HighSpeedTape

Why are you so adamant that this may not be a genuine 'rescue' for the club'?

We should all go to the AGM with an open mind about what may be on offer. For what is worth I think that this chap may have something that can save our GA at EGNT - I might be wrong.

We can't judge him on his 'not completed' website after all how long was NACs 'under construction'..............and we had no excuse.

Andy West

[neutron]

MetOffice & HiSpeedTape - so I'm not the only one who thinks there's something about this rescue offer that doesn't ring true!

[daw]

Some valid points made above particularly concerning the powers of the administrators which will negate the need for an AGM. Other things that I can't follow are:-

- why assume the club debt? why not just incorporate a new company with the "new" fleet and start with a clean slate? Or do a "my travel" debt restructuring scheme of arrangement offering the debt holders a token amount in the £ to buy their loyalty so that you can get access to the facilities/fuel etc if you are concerned that the new venture will be excluded unless the old club debt is repaid.

- assuming you want some or all of the NAC aircraft then I would assume since they are "owned" by the secured creditors you could put in an offer for those potentially at a level less than their market value which the administrator might accept in order for a quick sale.

- I think the whole idea of a commercial FTO is flawed. This is a highly competitive market to get into with a raft of approvals required. Where will the instructors come from? The old lot of instructors are not licenced to carry out commercial training.

In summary the small amount of detail disclosed to date just doesn't make financial sense to me.

[slim_slag]

Just a generalisation, but the way an American businessman will out-manouver you is different from the way an English businessman will out-manouver you. So if you are a Brit and have never dealt with an American apart from during a fly-drive holiday to Florida you should be doubly careful. You should be careful even if you understand their mind-set, but that's just business! Also as a generalisation, once the Administrators are in control any spare money will go to them :(

[TOPJET973K]

MetOffice

Well, it's very obvious you are trying to "shoot Elia down" - you appear to be one of these non aviation people who does nothing all day except trying to dig dirt up on other people - your posting says it all....

Let me say this - we will ALL vote against his proposal and watch the club close for good, would that please you?

Or, we can listen to his proposals and then make a decision.....

I'm sorry MetOffice - your comments are not good, and extremely negative comments do no good at all, an opinion yes...

also - would our members like the club to be run by a bunch of ex committee members, oh yes - again just hear say but a possible proposal to be tabled.

Me personally, I certainly wouldn't buy that idea, if that WAS voted in then all their "conflicts of interest" while serving our club on the committee would have paid off, a quote given to me recently reads as follows - "secretly" working behind the scenes, plotting the clubs downfall and be there ready to "dive like vultures" to scavange what's left, strong stuff but ANY truth???

:yuk:

[mike halls]

Well Guys,

everyone getting somethink in hey,

I must say are we going to put all our efforts against a guy who
is just making a proposal to save the club,met office hispeedtape
and neutron you all have valid thoughts and concerns but lets
take into account that who were the people who put the club
into this position first,this is what needs to be done first.

So what that elia has disolved a few companys and is forming
new ones, nobody really knows except Elia.

with regards to lynch and elia they were going to merge the schools hence the similiar websites.

Today the club went into admin so really the club fate will not
be known for at least a few weeks,Today marks the first
day of admin.

Who knows once the truth is out, Elia may not go forward with it
Mr parkin has said all along that if the club goes out nobody can come in and form a new company, so by this if the club is in the red at the end who would be crazy to take it over.
It is easy to say that lets just start all over again but what about
all the members and their money where did it all go.

Also this meeting really should not go forward on thursday,due
to the fact that the club is in admin,so really talking about a buy
out when the administrators have only had 2 days to work it
is crazy.

Its good to see that everyone is making thier points known,but really it comes down to DO WE WANT THE CLUB TO SURVIVE.

SAFE FLYING ALL
MIKE

[nacker barslob]

Shouldn't think we get a vote or any say in the matter on Thursday. Only expecting that we will be updated on Administrators findings so far.
Worst part about it

Wot no bar!!!!:{

[noiseabatement]

To all members:

I was very sad to hear of the trouble our fine club is in. Although I am still a member, the lure of flying jets forced to me to relocate so I don't get up to the North East as much as I'd like too. It was a colleague who told me what had happened and after a few hours digesting this thread I'm absolutely flabbergasted.

When living in the aera I was fully aware of the £60,000 loan from The Aero Club to "Little Wings" - of which committee members were involved in, an extremely hollow deal if ever there was one, obviously no accounts?

A colleague remarked only today that the day Gill Airways closed for business was the day the end was in sight for the club.

I cannot believe that Air BP would let the Aero Club run up a £50,000 fuel bill, as Aero Engineering hasn't made a penny since I was last at the club, you would possibly find the fuel bill around the £20,000 mark with the remainder "topped up" from some other "created company".

I had a look on the Companies House website, why did certain ex committee members set up a company called The Newcastle Flying School Ltd - that is suspicious to say the least, and if they tell you it was to "safeguard" the Aero Club then I would treat that with the contempt is deserves.

Many ex committee members feathered their own nests at the time when I was in the North East and it was obviously still going on. Another topic which is well talked about at Cranebank is the purchase of a fuel bowser from Biggin Hill with an invoice amount of £15,500 and a cheque book stub of over £25,000...

As I said earlier I am horrified at what has happened but after reading postings with regard to a possible lifeline to save the club then I would certainly listen to Mr Elia Golfin and hear what he has to say.

The posting from Topjet about a rumoured proposal from ex committee members to run the club, I would rather let George Michael treat my piles than let that lot run the club again.

I sincerely hope Thursday evenings meeting brings good news but if not on Thursday then very soon after.

Good luck, everybody at BA has their fingers crossed

B

[HiSpeedTape]

Neutron
Yes, indeed, I have a sixth sense about these things (plus inside info). A snowball stands a better chance in a hot place! Alarm bells ring loudly when I recognise the signs. Seems my sixth sense is slowly beginning to be proved accurate again.:*

Topjet973K
Tell me to bugger orf and mind my own but, I would be be very interested in whatever it is that you think, gives you the right to associate yourself with TCX by using their callsign as your own, so to speak. I do not recognise anything about you or in your profile that would indicate that you have anything at all to do with the aforesaid company. Perhaps I'll recognise you at the meeting, perhaps not. :hmm:

Noiseabatement
£15,500 for the bowser? I think your maths is out a bit;) If it was worth that much, I'll eat TJ973K's uniform cap (if he's got one):E That would leave approximately £20k unaccounted for.

[nacker barslob]

I say Topjet, in the absence of committee have you declared martial law?? and taken over as dictator ??
Only a tiny minority of club members will be PPers and most will want to know what is going on.
If the club is still open then I say the meeting should go ahead as previoulsy planned, even if only so the administrator can explain process.
Then it will have to be off to the wheatsheaf I guess!!!

[mike halls]

hi all,

I just got some info from a good source that the meeting will
not take place and that elia was told by the administrators that
he should not come until nextweek due to the fact that the club is over and that the administrators will not open the club for the
meeting.A very sad day but makes some sense that now the admin people are now in charge.

lets hope somethink good comes from all of this.

safe flying all

mike

[nacker barslob]

Well if that's the case, i hope the administrator is going to inform the members otherwise they will turn up and there could be civil disorder like Courts!!

[EGNTpilot]

HI,
Have just rung the flying school and spoke to John Collett who states as far as they are aware the meeting is on for Thursday but it will be run by the administrators. May at least be an opportunity to find out exactly what is going on and what options, if any, we have for keeping flying.

[nacker barslob]

If JC says its on, thats good enough for me
See you there (Bring your own booze, we'll probably need it!!)

[mike halls]

Hi all,

We really need to know what exactly is going on.
this is really dragging on,the debt keeps going up
and people really don't know what extent the club
is really in.

I know for sure Elia will not be there, as he was told by the administrators being mike potts "It would be a waste of time".
"Better to come the week after," as elia is still waiting on more
documents, ie being aircraft data sheets etccccc.

so lets see what the admin people say on thursday.

do you think they will open the bar ???????

going to be interesting

safe flying

mike

[martinidoc]

The other administrator Linda Farish from RMT has just been in, and confirmed there WILL be a meeting at 19.30 for MEMBERS ONLY. Membership cards will be inspected prior to admission.
The administrators will set out the present position, and explain what steps will be taken.

[TOPJET973K]

Martinidoc:

Thanks I - had just heard that.

[captainben]

Looks like the Aero Club could be in a bit of help, this article is from the Newcastle Evening Chronicle:
A chance meeting between a teenager and an international entrepreneur could save Newcastle's ailing Aero Club.

The 79-year-old club, the oldest in the country, was plunged into administration on Friday with debts of £200,000.

The 500 flying enthusiasts, whose club founded Newcastle International Airport, feared the worst last week after management impounded their planes.

But Australian flying school boss Elia Golfin, who lives and works in Florida, has made steps to take over the club.

Mr Golfin last night said that he was "95pc certain" of buying the club.

The 31-year-old, a retired commercial pilot who has schools across the world, heard about Newcastle Aero Club from teenager Mark Wright, of Stanley, County Durham.

The youngster, who trained to be a pilot with Mr Golfin in Florida, set out on his first solo flight on Saturday to mark his 16th birthday.

Mr Golfin's legal team is due to visit the airport today to establish the club's financial state.

He said: "I'm sending my team over, as well as my business partner from Ireland, and they will be trying to find out how bad the debt really is.

"Before I was interested in the club, I had several people from the North-East of England who came out here. One of them, Mark Wright, emailed me to tell me how bad the situation is and I thought `if a 15-year-old kid is passionate enough to do this, I'll have to do something.'

"I want to keep the club for the members and give them the opportunity to fly again.

"We will revamp it and give it a paint job, but otherwise it will be the same."

The news of Mr Golfin's interest was greeted with approval by members who are fed up of being kept in the dark about what has been happening.

The club's oldest member, 81-year-old Ken Doyle, said he hoped the sale would come off.

RAF veteran Mr Doyle, of Davenport Drive, Brunton Park, Gosforth, Newcastle, said: "He apparently has quite a lot of money in his pocket and if he wants to invest it in the club, we would all be delighted.

"I would welcome it and I think everyone would - all we are interested in is keeping this grand old club flying from Newcastle.

"I have flown in Florida and they are the most knowledgeable flyers in the world - I hope he comes."

But flying instructor Keith Lister said: "I just don't see how he can buy it - I really have my doubts.

"We have heard so many rumours and the amount of debt is so high.

"If he wants to inject £100,000, then we would all be delighted, but I really can't see it happening."

Aero Club secretary Barry Lawson refused to comment on any of the takeover rumours last night.

It's the height of happiness

Most 16-year-olds celebrate their birthdays with a party.

But Mark Wright found himself 1,000ft in the air on his birthday on Saturday - on his first solo flight.

The Whickham Comprehensive pupil, of Treefoil Road, Tanfield Lea, Stanley, County Durham, is juggling his GCSE studies with learning to fly.

Parents Alison, 38, and Barry, 42, took him to Florida to learn to fly, where he was taught by Elia Golfin.

Elia, 31, is trying to take over Newcastle Aero Club after meeting Mark - a member of the club.

Mark's father Barry, who works for a tyre company, said: "Mark's interest in flying came from when he went into a cockpit when he was 13.

"Since then, he has been travelling to Florida to learn and rake up his hours. He asked Elia to save the club, so hopefully that will come off.

"We are all very disappointed about the club's demise - Mark wants to fly from his local club."

Mark is the youngest pilot at the club. The eldest, Ken Doyle, 81, said: "I think it is great that a 16-year-old is so interested in flying, and also to try and get the gentleman from Florida to help."


A hope all goes well and this fella saves the club, it will be a great shame if the whole thing goes.:(

[noiseabatement]

Members:

Quite simply, what ARE the chances of the club surviving if the bid from the USA is successful?


Good luck.

[HiSpeedTape]

Helloooo... Earth calling. Wake up please, draw a deep breath and smell the coffee! My Master Warning is going off here, big time! Even more so in view of the Evening Chronicle article.

[daw]

Noise,

It won't. A not for profit club doesn't fit with a commercial entity incorporated with the intention of making a profit and it never will.

If a club is what the members are after then I suggest pursuing the various sale and leaseback options that were around a while ago and getting in some decent advisors to renegotiate the debt and have a face to face with Mr Parkin. As an aside has anyone ever taken him out to lunch? Taken him up flying, brought him a beer and generally treated him as you would any client in business? Or is it all done by sending impersonal letters? Anyway.....then start afresh with a proper business plan (including detailed cashflows), a new constitution, cut down staff, get the members doing their fair share to help out where appropriate (clearly not the finances) and start getting things like the maintenance operation to be a profit rather than cost centre. Sort out the catering and bar pricing while you are at it and do away with the concessions. Harness the market that is around during the day doing sandwiches and hot meals at a reasonable price. Get a courtesy van and pick up crews that have 1-2 hour turn arounds and feed and water them. Sign them up as members at a discounted rate like it was proposed with Easyjet. Print some flyers and drop them everywhere around the airport. Sign up everyone that moves as members at a decent price. Then sell them trial lessons whilst you are at it. Anyone know how many people work around the airport and are at the new nearby engineering school during the day? Must be hundreds surely.

Hopefully the above measures will cross subsidise the flying training and give members a better deal just like how most clubs around the country work.

Of course there could be a bit of competition with Elia sniffing around so you will need a decent team to put the offer on the table to the administrators but if you want a club rather than a FTO then thems the breaks.

[h999]

TOPJET

How are you? Did Mr Golfin ever take over the Gill premises as he promised he would? I think not!

[Shropshire Lad]

Daw - some interesting ideas.

At the risk of being flamed I don't know how wise it is to put all eggs in one basket here with the American option (and yes I would like to see the club survive - possibly as a club too)

As I recall a letter came round (being the one and only communication club members seem to have got ) regarding paying a small amount of money each to clear the debt. Now as a lot of people probably wouldn't want to send good money after bad this doesn't seem to have come off. However what are the prospects of the members buying shares in the company in a similar way to clear the debt and become shareholders? This may have the added benefit of giving the members more of a say in the running of the organisation and a stake in any profits returned from the club.

There is probably an extremely obvious reason why this wouldn't work but surely worth considering ?? :confused:

[mike halls]

hello all,

just a quick question to h999 when did mr golfin say that
or are you just making it up, could be as your hiding under
a makeup name, as usual.

all we want is the club to survive,isn't h999.
now we are hearing that EASY JET wants in,so who
really who's what is going to happen.

Parkin has always said that if the club goes no one can come
in so it really looks bad.

Also what are the administrators going to say on thursday,
"sorry people where selling everything off and the club's gone"
who wants to hear that.
questions should be asked where did the members money go
and who did it benefit.THAT IS THE QUESTION!!!!!!!

ALSO GOOD IDEA shropshire Lad but I don't think that time is
on our hands.

mike

[h999]

Mike

Last year Mr Golfin said he would lease the Gill premises for the purpose of aircraft handling and interior/exterior refurbishment. This never got an inch of the ground!

[mike halls]

h999,

did we ever hear why not, there were probably
reason's why he did'nt do it.
You can't just rubbish the guy, nobody
knows why so why say it.
dead issue and has no relevence here.
we are talking about the club h999.

do you want it to survive.
mike

[TOPJET973K]

Hello everybody

H999 - I wasn't aware Elia was going to take over the old Gill hanger last year! I was happy drinking & flying... :)

The EZY rumour seems to have been around for a while and is no secret but again that is way out of my sphere of knowledge. :O

Shropshire Lad - good idea, Geoff Orde muted the idea a couple of weeks ago but there has been that much going on it seemed to get pushed to one side.

I love the earlier posting that if JC says the meeting is on then thats good enough - I guess 7.30pm with our usernames on badges!!!

I don't know too much about admimistration but do they actually delve into the past and try to establish what went wrong with our finances? :hmm:

OK guys, hopefully see you all tomorrow with a 6 pack of Fosters.

M

[cagivawally]

I have been watching this thread with interest and it has to said some sad amusement but I think its time for a reality check:

A businessman with a benevolent heart ?

A 31 year old retired comercial pilot!!!

A decent credit rating ?

A landlord who doesnt appear to want a solution ?

An Administrator on board (Partner fee approx £250.00ph/Office boy £50.00ph )

Unless you guys have a lot of uninvoiced works liquidation seems the only solution to me and by that time the Aministrators will have spent all the cash you may have due.

[h999]

Mike

Yes i want the club to survive and return to the days when the apron was busy with club aircraft and the bar was a place to enjoy!

I know of several false promises Mr Golfin has made - I just hope history is not repeating itself. If it seems realistic from the outset I will fully support it.

[mike halls]

well h999,

you must know him better than any other person,
this is the first interest in England he has ever had.
I just spoke with him and he said that the gill air
hangar was only a idea at the time and that he did
put some work into the idea but there were other parties
interested in gill air old building that he never went further
into it.

I very hard statement when nodoby knows the truth and
remember h999 their is always 2 sides of a story.
mike

also what is your real name??????

please do tell or are you afraid.

[TOPJET973K]

I will echo the sentiments of H999

I remember the days when that apron was busy, you couldn't get an aircraft until 10pm on a summers evening and by then you were too drunk to fly anyway.

This summer, even on the rare hot day all servicable aircraft were in the hanger by 7pm and JC was on the beer.

Night flying was picking up with Andreas doing many hours after time to help the students but I'm just heart broken at this whole thing - please don't call me a drama queen, I just love the place. :{

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Gentlemen.

I read all the postings with interest, the main interest of all of us should be sorting out the club and not bickering with each other.!
If Mr Golphin is to save us all well and good if not there may be other alternatives.

Lets face it the members have been well and truly shafted by the minority of greedy people it may not be such a bitter pill to swallow if it all goes breast's skywards

Regards & Good Night All

[h999]

Mike

pprune only succeeds on having the potential to be an anonymous forum hence I will not reveal my name!

[TOPJET973K]

Hold Foxtrot (Again)

HERE HERE!!!!! :)

Good Night All.

M

[HiSpeedTape]

I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say (write) this but, IF (WHEN) THE CLUB IS PUT TO REST BY THE ADMINISTRATORS, THERE WILL NOT BE ANY KIND OF ENTERPRISE PERMITTED TO REPLACE IT!
There I've gone and said it again.
Not withstanding all the uncertainty regarding the honesty or otherwise of Mr Golfin, unless he's got a real will to not only clear the debt but also to fight against Parkin's policies for which he'll require a whole bunch of sharp lawyers there is no way this is going to amount to anything more than diddly squat.
Perhaps the Media should be involved and pressure brought to bear on Parkin but I think he'll be fireproof.
Oh and forgot to add that the days of Gill's demise were well before Parkin came on the scene. If things were difficult to organise then and Mr Golfin couldn't stomach the competition then, what stomach does he have now?
Cagivawally is right to draw attention to those known facts by way of a reality check.

[CSerpent]

HiSpeed Tape

Perhaps the Media should be involved and pressure brought to bear on Parkin but I think he'll be fireproof.


It's not just the media, we unfortunately have the typical British attitude I'm sorry to say. Expect others to do the work and we end up doing little to assist.

What does have to be born in mind is that under EU law Parkin's actions are illegal (Strasbourg Ryanair Situation - a publically owned airport (NIA is 51% public authority owned) cannot provide favourable options to transport providers at the expense of other traffic - including GA).

Has anyone actually taken the time to point this out to the airport's owners? (Namely Northumberland CC, Newcastle CC, Gateshead MBC, N Tyneside MBC, S Tyneside MBC, Sunderland CC).

Or hopefully the chap doing the reporting at the Chronicle/Journal can spot this matter.. or even the people reading this can take it to their MPs and MEPs.

One thing is for sure, John Parkin is nothing but an utter menace to General Aviation - the birthplace of Commercial Pilots... and indeed seems to be that to everyone involved in EGNT except EZY and RYR!

But the fact here is, nothing is going to happen simply talking, action has to be taken directly, somehow!

[Shropshire Lad]

Incidentally - I know the local auhorities are only 51?% share holders in the airport but has anyone contacted them about increases in the landing fees? I'm sure as the elected representatives of all of us who fly from the club they have a responsibility to enusre fair use of the airport?? Or am I being naive?????

Unfortuanately I am unable to get to tonights meeting - I presume the adminstrators willbe outlining there details to all club members??

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

Likewise I can't attend due to an imminent house move! I'm sure somone will kindly let us know on here what is said?

G-WK

[HiSpeedTape]

I would have thought that as we are all council tax payers and 51% of the Airport is local authority owned, the local authoities would have to listen and take stock of the situation with regards to Parkin, Either they are backing him and his policies or, no one has brought this to the attention of anyone who can do something about it. I've never written to my MP about anything so I'm as guilty as anyone of having the attitude that things will sort themselves out and, I suppose, apathetic about politics anyhow.
Is there nobody within the club membership with contact within local goverment?

[HiSpeedTape]

Dont think Martinidoc is TW

[martinidoc]

Newcastle Pilot

Nice post, but important error of identification. Poor Trevor White is not martinidoc, try I Martin (doc).

Why defend KL and the other greedy instructors?
Simple, speak as you find. I have found them all to be hard working and I have no reason to believe that any of them have been dishonest.

Not sure that I have expressed the same degree of support for all the ex-committee members.

[mike halls]

Well great statement Newcastle pilot,

what everyone wanted to hear about
"the real reason for the demise"

Lets hope that miss kestevan,kl,al and the rest of them
read this that now everyone will really find out what
went on behind closed doors.

great statement,

how are you topjet937k

mike

[carbheat]

After a post like Newcastlepilot's, I can't see the meeting tonight being over before midnight.
It must depend on how much open debate is allowed by the administrators, who I suspect may just want to give us the bad news then get on with the dismantling job.Please don't take this as an "anti" post: just a realistic approach.

[TOPJET973K]

Mike

Yeh - I'm good mate. feel very down about the whole thing.

I'm still digesting the post from newcastlepilot - absolutely superb.

I'm getting in touch with a mate from Civic Centre, a local government bod, reading HST's post I though we have nothing to lose if there IS no way forward - am waiting for his call.

Regards everybody

M

[Joe'le'Toff]

Everyone,

Bring your membership cards with you tonight. I have heard that there will be two bruisers on the door tonight and they will be checking to see who is members as well as recording who attends.

[mike halls]

hi guys,

just a quick question is it true that mr butcher gave
mr lister this HUGH salary.
I heard that it was extremely high for his position
and that he was given a pound for every other flight
at the club.

Just another backdoor deal that probably the members did'nt know about.

mike

[HiSpeedTape]

What time's kick off?

[mike halls]

I thinks it 7.30pm

will you be there high speed

[noiseabatement]

To all members:

Hello again

I have it on good authority that the contract given to Mr Keith Lister by Mr William (Bill) Butcher was for £38,000 + £1.00 for every hour flown by club aircraft.

That came to light because Capt. Joeseph Forster "bragged" to all and sundry about it.

Good luck members.

BB

[mike halls]

well,

I don't know about you lot but isn't that a good
buddy deal or what.
thankyou for the post Noiseabatement!!!!!

lets see what tonight brings us.

mike

[HiSpeedTape]

Doesn't look likely at the moment unless I can get off Standby early

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

We are knee deep in the brown stuff, why on earth has a high profile company with its unreal cost been appointed without the members being consulted or informed.
More sculgdugery from our self elected mis/management

Regards All


BE THERE AND SPEAK UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HiSpeedTape]

How come none of us were privvy to these little deals? Surely this sort of stuff has to be published in the annual accounts? Or was it a case of a little creative accounting going on?

[gt500]

is it about time that everyone----- i mean everyone pulled in the same direction to get the club flying again, you cant blame Mr Parkin for what he did with the landing fees as there were the same amount of people flying the club aircraft after the rates went up.

If he had`t of put the landing fees, on the same thing would of happend 6-12 mouth down the line, Mr Parking has done us a good turn in a way by stopping the aero club from running for the money it ows for langing fees thus bringing the mismanagment of the club funds and dodgy deals to the forfront of the membership they should be proud of what they have done.

if we are now to be owned by a aussie who appers to have three flying schools and a very big stock of aircraft so be it, he will have a aussie sence of humor, humor has been missing from the club for along time. If the Mr Golfin is willing to put the money in and supply new aircraft to move the club foward so be it. It is a small price to pay to put newcastle aero club back on the map, in my view to run it as a buissnes and not as a retierment fund can only be good.

SO GOOD LUCK TO THE CLUB AND TO MR GOLFIN as this is safest way to go for the club it will get rid of all hangers on and make the club sound onec again.

thank you :D

[mike halls]

HELLO ALL,

WELL WHAT A EVENING,

DID ANYONE NOTICE HOW KEITH LISTER ALAN COULSON
LOOKED BEFORE THE MEETING STARTED AND THEN HOW THEY
LOOKED DURING THE MEETING,I MUST SAY VERY WORRIED
INDEED NOW THAT CRIMINAL ACTION WILL TAKE PLACE.
ALSO MAY I ADD THAT ALL THE DIRECTORS AND CHAIRMEN
OF THE SO CALLED LITTLE WINGS WHICH THEY CREATED
ALL RESIGN THIS WEEK, WELL I MUST SAY GETTING VERY
INTRESTING ALSO THAT MR KEITH LISTER HAS APPLIED
FOR A NEW PASSPORT,WONDER WHERE WE ARE GOING KEITH
"ON A ONE WAY TICKET".
THE BIGGEST AND SUPPOSE THE MOST WORRYING THING
FOR THE OLD ADMINISTRATION IS THAT RMT WILL STILL BE
INVESTIGATING THE CLUB DEBT AFTER IT IS SOLD OFF FOR AT
LEAST 6 MONTHS AFTERWARDS.
I DON'T HOPE THEY GET THEM DUE TO THE FACT THAT I KNOW
THAT THEY WILL, A LOT OF MEMBERS ARE NOT GOING TO LET
THEM GET AWAY WITH IT.
HAS ANYONE ESLE GOT ANY NEWS TO TELL
PLEASE DO.

MIKE

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

Tell me more! Been packing for a house move all night :'(

G-WK

[TOPJET973K]

Gentleman

Well, not a lot to report - basically just the admin people outlining what has happened and the fact there was a "fare bit of interest" from other parties.

Very subdued, I just couldn't ask anything - everything I wanted to ask just would not have been prudent.

Cheers

M

[TOPJET973K]

newcastlepilot

Coulson came into the meeting about half way through, just stood by the main door.

Good posting mate - did you have a note pad with you?? :eek:

Not sure what category Elia's proposal may come under,but he is a "members" guy and feels strongly about how we have been treated in the past.

Good night guys

M

[mike halls]

good post newcastle pilot,

I really think that option 2 will happen and I think
that is what we all want.
lets hope this helps us nail the people involved in
robbing the poor members.
this story will be around for some time.
good night ALL
MIKE

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Salutations one and all (and Topjet )

Newcastlepilot :
My concerns were that the administrators would add a huge cost to the already mounting costs as they were a london based outfit
and obviously expensive but this would appear not to be.

Ref Option 1
Who in their right mind would bail out the club as it is with it's tag along band of gypsy,s (well known for removing property not there own) Exceptions: JC IC AB JO M A Forget It !!!

Option 2
Ace if it all comes together.
What we don not need is a BOF toe tag ready committee, Sorry gents but lets move into the 21st century !!

Option 3
Dont go there !

Finally a qoute from the bible.

God helps those who help themselves
God help you when you get caught!

If you cant do the time don't do the crime !

Fly straight..........

[mike halls]

hello newcastle pilot,

just goes to show us all the way
these individuals used the club's funds for their
own pleasure.
I believe that all of them are a little worried now
I just hope that crown are called soon to put
them away.

mike

great post's newcastle pilot

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

I am led to believe that a condition of employment with Gateshead MBC and indeed any council is that outside interest's are disclosed to the employer.

Have they been informed of her interest in The Newcastle Flying School and sundry other involvements ???

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Well Said John !!!

I think gents that we are again sniping in the dark, JO/MA have as John said given more than they have taken.
Would any of us do 12 hours for nothing.

At the end of the day the administrators will decide the fate of the guilty and it will all be out in the open they may resign but they can't hide.

[TOPJET973K]

Gentleman:

Ovey: We all know the invaluable work you and Malcolm do for very little reward, however I doubt the administrators will be chasing you and "Armageddan" round the airfield!

Hold Foxtrot: Here here! - we need to concentrate on the job in hand, a little too much sniping of late - Members, let's stick together on this and be strong.

The necessary authorities will deal with any individuals if/when any wrong doing is uncovered.
:E

Heads up..

M

[mike halls]

hi all,

lets help and get the club back up and support the
new owner, whoever that maybe!!!!!

I am for helping the admin people in getting the:mad:
involved in taking our money.

I don't think it will be long before charges are made.

mike

have a good weekend ALL

[Happyeater]

Strange atmosphere in the Club last night, I thought. Was wondering when people were going to 'kick off' but there wasn't anyone there to go for! An earlier thread said it was like a funeral, I'd like to think it was more of 'the end before a new beginning'.

Newcastle needs a flying club and the passion shown on these boards and talking to members generally can only be a good thing for whatever the future brings.

Although there may have been wrong doings in the past, its best left to the professionals to decide their fate, if proven. I say you have to move on.

[FinalsToLand]

In response to John Overtons posting may i just say that in the 10+ years i have been a member John and Malcolm have certainly been the most loyal, hardworking and honest staff i have dealt with in that flying school office and nothing was a problem for them to deal with,
Many Thanks for all your hard work.

F.T.L

[carbheat]

Despite being asked not to, at least one member spilled their guts to the Journal last night.Not a pretty sight!

[FinalsToLand]

newcastlepilot If it wasnt for JO and Malcolm there would have certainly been less night/evening flying as there would have been no-body to fuel and dont forget the groundschool courses that have been run during the evenings helping many pilots to earn their wings.

F.T.L

[carbheat]

I've read newcastlepilots's posts with interest and some admiration but the last post about JO/MA was overstepping the mark.
I would be amazed if regular flyers would despise the amount of pay given to these stalwarts of the club.

[Paris Dakar]

newcastlepilot,

I admire your determination in trying to get to the bottom of this awful mess - but you are bang out of order replying to JO's post in that manner. Why on earth should MA make a post given the response he is likely to receive?

If your intention was to nurture these Gents into 'dishing the dirt' then I believe you may have just dumped in your own nest.

[noiseabatement]

Dear Members:

Pleas please please can we STOP these personal attacks on each other.

We do not want this thread to be the laughing stock of PPRUNE, but carry on like this and it will. I have already had to privately email one PPRUNER because I felt his postings were nothing more than personal attackss, so come on guys - lets fight for each other - not against.

Good luck

BB

[luvly jubbly]

Sorry to see it all collapsing in on itself, but the writing has been on the wall for at least 3 years now.

We may have all moaned about how badly things were going but did anyone really do anything to stop this??

Rather suspect it's too late now, and I guess Samson can at last have the whole southside for it's bizjets.

Hope something keeps the good name going tho.


LJ


PS. JO/JC/MA Absolute pleasure knowing you guys. Long hours.... No pay..... Thanks for your efforts over the years!!


PPS................Schumacher??????????

[HiSpeedTape]

Maybe I'm missing something here but exactly how much of the (recently) £75.00 per year membership that we each pay (hopefully) do you think is left over after expenditure on premises,wages, insurance and myriad other sundries? Not a bloody lot I would imagine. Exactly how much of the hourly flying rate do you think is left over after the fuel, maintenance, landing fees and other associated costs have been accounted for? Not a bloody lot I should imagine.
So why the hell don't you all desist with the witchhunt, besmirching the good names of a good many people who have been loyal servants of the club probably from before half of you were an itch in daddies pants.
Accept it - the club went down because outgoings exceeded income. It happens every day I'm afraid and it' a hard fact of life.
How many of you reached into your wallets and stumped up the cash as requested to keep this situation from developing in the first place? NOT BLOODY MANY I warrant.

And I do not appreciate being PM'd in a vain attempt at finding out who I am (noiseabatement). Not many of you know me (thats obvious) and judging by the tripe I'm seeing here, I think thats a good thing. :mad:

[Charlie32]

Couldn't face the Wheatsheaf with GO tonight after last nights depressing affair.
I don't suppose there was a mass attendance and share buy out of the club.
Any news??

[noiseabatement]

Dear Mermbers:

Well well well - Mr HighSpeedTape, I sent you a private PM to avoid asking you a question that everybody could see.

Your response to my question was to quote me in open forum for something that I asked you privately. I don't particularly care whether you are in the flight deck (although I'm so pleased you are not) or do something else in aviation. If you care to consult my profile then you will find out exactly who and what I do.

Further to that my private posting was not a vain attempt to find out who you are, again - you identity matters not.

And without doing what I requested members not to do I will finally say this - I sincerely hope that somebody saves our club, even if it's just to see a large amount of egg on your face.



newcastlepilot:

Hi, yes - an interesting chat with Mike Pott today, mainly regarding Coulson & Kestevan's links with Little Wings.
Pretty positive but I really think time will tell.= on this one.

Good luck

BB

[Charlie32]

HST
True, margins must have been tight, but surely thats the nature of a not for profit members club.
The demise is down to a combination of incompetence and possibly dishonesty, and you can hardly blame the members for wanting to expose dishonesty. The speculation could all have been avoided if the committee(s) had been open and allowed the membership to know what was going on, but they did not. Lack of information inevitably arouses suspicion.
Finally I was one of the few who answered the call and put hope above expectation. Were you??

[HiSpeedTape]

noiseabatement.
YOU instigated a PM to me in, what I'll repeat, was a vain attempt to find to seek information about me in relation to previous posts I have made. Quite how that translates into your version I don't know. Now the beauty of pprune and many other forums like it is, we can be what we want to be. My profile gives my true occupation. Anyone with a knowledge of the aviation industry will know what that is and from then on my identity will be open for you to sleuth out if you have half a clue how to go about it. The same goes for yours although we could debate whether or not you are truely what you say you are (by the way I've not seen your licence type described that way before. A lesser rating yes) although it's obvious that you purport to fly the flag and have probably worked on their regional turboprop fleet before your current position. Given that information, it should be relatively easy to identify you by asking questions in the right places. I'll probably see you on the flight deck sometime eh? Lucky you can always hide behind the flight deck door but then I could just use the emergency access code.;)
Quite why you think I shall end up with egg on my face I do not know. I have never once said I would like to see the club go under. I was one of the few who made a small donation in order to try and prevent such a thing happening (theres your answer C32). Now that it has happened, I am dismayed although, as is probably obvious, not entirely surprised. This is because the demise was partially engineered to happen and in a way was inevitable. I do not frequent the club very often as I have no real need to do so any more apart from getting revalidated and catching up with JC and KL, having my own aircraft. However I do still maintain my full membership. Truth is for the last couple of years it has become too expensive to fly the club aircraft from NCL. Allied to that, some of the pretentious knobs that I seem to come across when I do visit and I thinks it's obvious why.

See you on the F/D eh?:ok:

[noiseabatement]

Members:

HST: You no doubt will meet me one day, may already have in passing but who knows...or cares really. You seem to question everything about everybody - is that your own insercurity?
You can ask around all you want to find out who I am, it is no secret to other members.

At the end of the day we all have wide and varied opinions on how & why things happened at Newcastle Aero Club but bitching amoungst ourselves certainly isn't going to sort the situation.

I'm an adult who really doesn't tell lies or makes things up so please do not question my profile, and me not yours.

I think we should get on with the job in hand and put any other matters to sleep - you agree?

I think in some ways the anonimity of users CAN cause the inevitable problems but on the other hand it is fun.

I did think I had sent you a private email but it certainly wasn't to find out who you were, it was maybe to ask a question privately which isn't a bad thing. The egg on the face thing was purely in response to your wake up and smell the coffee posting which strongly indicated you had information that would suggest no other operator would ever be allowed on the airfield which we now know not to be the case as I believe a long term lease is curently being discussed with a proposed lifeline, said to be Elia Golfin.

Anyway HST, lets put things aside and plod on regardless.

Good luck

BB

[HiSpeedTape]

noiseabatement

Roger that. It's forgotten about.
I apologise if my sometimes brusque or abrasive manner winds people up but then I find I'm becoming increasingly frustrated about the way Newcastle Airport in general is in an accelerated dive away from the friendly little place it once used to be.
If you have concrete evidence that the lifeline will be accepted by the Airport, then who am I to argue otherwise. It is just contrary to what I have been told is going to happen. There have been many things here that have been rumoured would be about to happen and despite many believing the rumours to be false, those things have actually happened. None of them good if you happen to earn a living or pursue an interest at Newcastle. You may well find yourself effected professionally sometime in the foreseeable future. Your company and mine are already paying a far greater price per passenger than easyjet in airport charges but thats a different story for a different day.

Hope to see you around.:ok:

[martinidoc]

If Noise is the BB that I think he is then he does have the ratings in his profile, because I enjoyed (as SLF) a late go around from LHR a few years ago with him in the LHS of a 320, at that time.

With regard to comments about AC and his haste to get a rescue plan approved at the pevious AGM, perhaps I may shed some (although certainly not all ) light on this.

AC approached myself and several other members of the club to try and help formulate a recovery plan. In fact AC wanted us to be co-opted onto the committee, but we refused to do so, unless a sensible recovery plan could be formulated with financial evidence that it at least had a chance of succeeding.

Through TW, an initial approach was made to MB to see if as a member he would be prepared to lend financial support to the club, and even take over the management of the club. This was because one thing that had become abundantly clear from the outset was that the club could not be effectively managed by a committee of amateurs, no matter how well meaning. Both AC and BL had accetpted that this was the case.

The results of our negotiations with MB were presented to the AGM, in the form of AC reading out MBs letter of proposal. Neither the existing committee members or the advisors, felt that MBs proposal retained sufficient of the essential elements of the club to be a preferred option. In essence there would be no or very little ab initio training and there would be no bar/club house. He would purchase the aircraft and make them and the hangar available for hire, with a limited amount of on site engineering.

I visitied Baker Tilly, with AC on one occassion, mainly because I wanted to try and establish as nearly as i could the true financial picture. The meeting was not as pessimistic as I had anticipated, and Baker Tilly seemed to be confident that providing adequate cash flow and profit loss forecasts were made available, they would be able to secure a £30K overdraft facility, to enable the club to satisfy immediate and threatening creditors, and thereafter trade out. Obtaining the accurate data required proved difficult. LH a qualified accountant volunteered to produce the necessary documentation, but was thwarted by difficulties in actually finding all the necessary financial information. However she managed to produce some cash flow analyses which seemed to support the view that NAC could with some fairly draconian fiscal stringencies trade out.

The committee and advisors felt that all club members should have the opportunity of putting forward any alternative plans, and that was why a letter was sent out to that effect. There was division amongst the committee and advisors about circulation of accounts and further information. The advisors wished to send out the non-audited accounts, with the proposed action plan, but the existing committee members did not. The reaoning given was that allowing too much information to get out might scare creditors into taking precipitive action. It was my view that this was less likely than there being serious consequences from not circulating full information, however the advice of myself and other advisors was overuled on this.

Meanwhile in parrallel, and with the full knowledge of AC/BL, I called together a group of members known to me, with a view to seeking an injection of cash, £100K, to rescue the club, but subject to modification of the Mem and Arts, along the lines suggested by me at the previous AGM, namely to have the club run by a manager who would be answerable to the board, who would in effect be non execs, providing scrutiny and overall direction, but not being involved in the day to day management of the club. Several of you may have attended this meeting. Sadly I was unable to pursuade enough people that this would succeed.

The final recovery plan presented at the AGM was therefore similar to the plan above, but relying on the overdraft facility rather than a cash injection. The big difference was that Aero engineering needed to be liquidated. This was recommended by Baker Tilly (at a meeting attended by AC/LH but not me) despite the fact they acknowledged they would lose £5K owed by Engineering.

With all this delay, time was pressing, and court action being threatened by the IR. TW was liaising with the airport, so it was not true to say that there was no dialogue, however, for some reason, ongoing landing fees were not being paid (NIA had agreed to wait until an action plan was agreed before chasing the then £30K provided the ongoing fees were paid). Why they were not only AC can tell.

Sorry about the length of this post, and even this is to some extent a summary, but hopefull it at least gives you a flavour of why AC was so keen to get the plan approved quickly.

Sadly GOs prophecy came true.

If there are any other questions that I can answer I am happy to try and do so.

[martinidoc]

Sorry not sure about engineering. Never saw any accounts for them for this year.
However the previous years accounts appeared to show losses of 40-50K per year. This in addition to the fact that most of the major outgoings of aer engineering were paid directly by aero club, namely, rent, electrics, engineers salary, BP bill, and bills for aero parts. Difficult to understand how it was still losing this amount of money. The accumulated debt from engineering to aero club was about 250K, which showed in the club reserves. Steve Askey queried this on several occassions at AGMs, but not being an accountant I have to confess I never really understood the anwers, but on the face of it, and according to Steve Askey (an accountant member) engineering may have been trading illegally for some time. I wonder if it had not been liquidated sooner, because that would have wiped out the reserves on the clubc accounts, and brought thyem to insolvency too. No doubt the administrators will sought that one out. Perhaps one of our accountant members can comment?

[noiseabatement]

Hello Members:

Just a short post, correct me if I am wrong - Martin Ballinger would simply turn the Aero Club into an extension of his Samson Jet Centre?

Every posting seems to refer to Coulson in some way or another, I actually found the man extremely nauseating and very dull, and his skill (or not) as a company director appears to have been questioned many times. But at the end of the day he was elected by US and for the time being we will have to live with that.

A very worrying thought, another ex chairman is rumoured to be part of a possible proposal. I state clearly that I will venomously oppose ANY plan that that man is involved in.
Professional etiquette prevents me from posting my true feelings about this man but reading earlier postings re: a new engine fitted to his friends aircraft etc and the bare faced ignorance of this man to stand up in an AGM and say he hadn't been invoiced is way beyond comprehension AND with the now reduntant enineer sitting next to him at the time.

I sincerely hope from the bottom of my heart that RMT admimistrators find something irregular with the purchase of that fuel bowser.

My words may appear strong, but in the past to hear these people laughing, plotting, scheming with our, the members money just makes me physically sick.

Good luck

B

[johnoverton]

noiseabatement

Very well said!

[noiseabatement]

Martinidoc:

Just to advise you that I am not the legendry BB you are probably thinking of and although we are similarly type rated AND similarly named I could never be good enough to fill his shoes, also - his "go around ratio" is probably a lot lower than mine! Our initials are similar but we are very named differently.

Thank you

BB (The other one!)

[neutron]

johnoverton

You asked me my login name at the meeting the other night. If you would like to communicate perhaps you could pm me your email address

[Workmaster]

In view of the fact no Invoices have been issued by the Engineering side of the Aero Club - were forceful enquiries ever made by those that owed money for services received and any offers made of payment in advance of a final Invoice?

Were the Jet Provost Group ever invoiced for hangarage or was this paid direct to the Airport Authority?

Daily fuel samples were taken from the Fuel Bowser, were these ever re-cycled and filtered back into the Bowser to save money, I dont think so. So where did this Avgas go and not down the drain!

These are just some of the questions which need to be addressed.

:cool:

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Good Afternoon Gents


Just read the postings above this one, it shows why a "council of management" will not work.

Thank God we are all different and have different ideas.

The way forward is option 2 new broom,clean sweep, none of the previous hangers on and as martinidoc said a possible group of people to advise and make sure history does not repeat itself with sticky fingers in the till (allegedly)

Stick together guys !!!!!

Correct me if wrong is AC not a director Ncl aero engineering
and woul love to see it gone!

[carbheat]

HF(a), I agree with the wish for a new broom, but RMT have stated that they MUST accept the offer most beneficial to any creditors.So, if a group is formed by, say, former committee members(retired) and their offer is the highest tender, we could find the club under the control of the same people taking the flak on this forum, with the membership unable to do a thing about it.
A sobering thought.

[martinidoc]

AC was a director of Aero engineering, but suspect he would have preferred no liquidations at all.

One other thing I forgot to mention in the analysis; we did manage to obtain as part of the financial recovery plan a quote from an alternative engineering outfit to provide all 50 hour and remedial work on site, plus 150 and annuals at a nearby facility, at a total cost for the fleet of approx 30K/ann, much cheaper than even the losses of Aero Engineering, and giving us clarity about the true engineering costs, to allow us to build that into the hourly rates.

On this basis and as I stated previously, Aero engineering was simply non-viable. Liquidation had the additional benefit of wrighting off some of the total debt namely BP and some of the IR debts. Whilst you might argue this was immoral, BP a very large company with very big profits, and an assurance that Aero club would continue to have fuel subject to pay as you go, frankly in the dire strates we were in, liquidation was the only sensible option for engineering. No criticism of the existing engineer was implied in this decision, indeed as an engineer I and others had the greatest confidence in him, however the engineering business was for a variety of reasons not financially viable.

With regard to financial irregularities, we only identified one area where, prima facie there appeared to be evidence of wrong doing (that is not to say there were not other areas, it is only to say that this was the only area that was apparent to us in the documentation made available to us), in relation to a former chaiman's expenses. Apparently BL signed over a mandate for the club account without reading the small print. This permitted the chairman to have sole signatory authority over the club accounts. An internet facility was established, and a debit card issued. The statements showed several money transfers to the chairman's account for several thousands of pounds and the debit card indicated expenditutre, which included payment of vetinary bills. According to AC the Police were informed and solicitors wrote to the said chairman who replied to the effect that the expenses were all justifiable. According to AC/BL no expenses were authorised by them as the other directors. Now it may be that the expenses were justified, but at the very least there was a lack of probity in the way in which these expenses were transfered, and without sufficient explanation, I have asked the administrators to pay particular attention to investigation in this area. The said former chairman might if he reads this like to comment, or indeed contact the administrators to put his side of the argument?

With regard to the JP. As previously stated I am not clear about the precise agreement between the officers of the JP Company and Aero club, but I do know that fees are paid either to the aero club or NIA (because these are reflected in the fixed charges that we pay for the JP), and that the JP is certainly not on the field at the expense of NAC.

Finally may I join in the praise of JO who has been one of the un-sung gentleman heroes of NAC.

IanM

[noiseabatement]

Dear Members:

I really think the Samsom Jet Centre/Ballinger option would see the club change into a corperate doss house for Newcastle United fotballers waiting for their SCOT AIRWAYS flights to away fixtures.

As I posted yesterday I believe that the Elia Golfin option has a good chance of taking the club forward. If he is in contact with EGNT authorities/RMT then surely that is a good sign, I haven't heard of the chap but lets see what developes. Had a private PM with TOPJET (he seems OK, gets some flack though but the club is at his heart!) and information provided re: Elia Golfin sounds good. I know from reading past postings people are very sceptical of his rumoured offer and I am myself but at least that option would keep our club and it to be run by the members for the members.

A new owner is not always a bad thig but we do need to move forward from this elected committee mindset. Committees always look out for themselves and that has been well documented in the past.

Martinidoc providing some excellent information in postings.

This thread WILL go on for years now small stones are being turned over and more and more information about how the club was run is coming to light. Before heading south I was a regular member but I have found out MORE via PPRUNE/Martinidoc etc about the club was/is run in the last 5 days than I did in 15 years!

Good luck

BB

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

I hear what you are saying but with mutterings going around the same people would be back in the frame KL AC and company.

We do not need this...

Elia probably has web access and a few seem to be in contact with him on a regular basis, perhaps a posting from the man himself would settle this once and for all, It's only a suggestion

I think everybody would welcome it..

Regards all

[carbheat]

Agreement yet again with Hold Fox:
If Mr. Golfin can let the members on Pprune have a bit of info about himself and his ideas without jeopardising his proposals, we would be very grateful and it may reduce a deal of the speculation and some of the uncertainty felt by many.
Thanks should go to TopJet for the info concerning Mr. Golfin already in the public domain.
I'm with noiseabatement in regard to the opening of our eyes to the secretive world of NAC....cheers to all who have told what they know.

[TOPJET973K]

Hi everybody

Noiseabatement: Cheers!
Martinidoc: A mine of information, stand for Mayor!

OK, I'm going to be phoning Elia very shortly and I will reiterate the need for a posting from him.

I spoke with him yesterday and his mission statement/business plan/financial statement are virtually in place to put to RMT on Monday at soonest.

Lease issues have been discussed with airport authorities/RMT and there doesn't appear to be any problem there.

Hope he can get a good posting very soon.

Cheers gents

M

[Elia Golfin]

Hello,

I have just completed reading the entire post on the
"NEWCASTLE AEROCLUB". I must admit that everyone
has written some very interesting posts.

I feel very sorry for all the members of the club, which
has a very proud history.

I would like to let all of you know where I stand at the moment.
Late october early november I recieved phone calls from
a few people commenting on the aero club's position.

I really did'nt know what to think and just merely listened
until the last few weeks where I started to get invovled.
I don't want to go into detail I will merely let you all know
what my idea's are and plan of attack.

I contacted the administrator's lastweek and had a brief discussion with Mr Potts. He had given me an outline of
what he had to do before he could entertain a proposal
from myself. On friday I spoke with Linda farnish who now
seems the person in charge of proceedings.
I will send linda on monday a
1. Business plan
2. financial statement

I feel very strongly about the takeover bid for the "aero club"
as I would like the idea of having a school in the UK.
It ALSO gives me the excuse to go there so I can watch my
favorite team MANCHESTER UNITED.

Basically I would like to take over the club and run it as a club
and my objective is to take care of my members. I will also
like to take the club to a full FTO status,ie commercial etccccc.
I also will export depending on demand aircraft to the UK,
increasing the fleet to at least 10 aircraft.
This has been a difficult situation for me as well as all the
members of the club,although their are certain legal mountains
to jump. With the club going into administration it has removed
all liability, which is great.
I have asked for several documents to be sent to my office
on monday upon that I will make an offer on 3 to 4 of the clubs
existing aircraft.Once I have agreed the price's on the aircraft I then need to discuss the biggest hurdle "THE LEASE". I HOPE that everyone understands this as it would be not good business
sense to takeover the club if I can't have a fair lease.
Linda farnish said on friday that "she has spoken to the airport"
regarding this issue.
So really gents, I am waiting to dicuss these two area's before
I arrive into the UK at the end of the week.
I have planned to arrive at the club late thursday or early
friday to meet with the administrators.
I will keep you all up to date of proceddings BUT until then
lets just see what they hit me with.
All I want is somethink fair for everyone, and those of you that do know me can understand that.
Regards

Elia Golfin

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Morning All

I hope this last post is not somebody's idea of a joke !

This is after all a rumour network...

Elia, I think that all here and members of NAC not using these threads wil owe you more than thanks when this is all sorted.

One last little thought regarding N A E if the invoices that are owed were invoiced the club would be due a large amount of money as indicated in Martinidoc's previous posts, The only people to gain from this will be those who at the last AGM said they owed money to N A E and had not recieved an invoice. Nice work if you get away with it. (pay up you greedy Ba--ards)

Best Regards.........

[Elia Golfin]

HELLO,

THIS IS NOT A JOKE,HOLD FOXTROT,
I DO UNDERSTAND YOUR POSITION.
THE MEMBERS OF THE NEWCASTLE AERO CLUB
AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED HAVE BEEN :mad:

I HOPE TO BE IN NEWCASTLE THIS WEEK TO
SAVE THE CLUB.A LOT OF QUESTIONS HAVE TO BE ASKED????

THIS IS NOT OVER, ONCE THE CLUB HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER THE
ADMINISTRATOR'S WILL CONTINUE TO INVESTIGATE WHERE IT
WENT, SO THESE PEOPLE INVOVLED WON'T GET AWAY WITH IT.

REGARDS

ELIA GOLFIN

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

No offence meant or intended

I think it is very evident how we all feel and sometimes people extract the water so to speak.

I personally cannot wait to meet you and God willing (although I am not a religous person but we need all the help possible) this will sort itself out and we all will be able to fly once again with someone who as you have previously stated is "a club person"
albeit with a buissness interest.

Thank you Sir..

[gt500]

if you think that the posting from elia on page 16 is a joke, look at the status at the bottom of the page and you will find that it says it is from FLORIDA.

I know elia personaly there is a bit of information in his posting which is personal and only a select few no the team he serports, his beloved MANCHESTER UNITED.

so please hold your hourese elia has got 2 sucsesful buiseness to run as well as shorting the aero club out. 6.500 miles and five hours time difference dose not help so cut the man some slack.

message to elia see you at the weekend just polished the corvette the little man :D

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

I hear what you are saying B, you know the situation and somebody taking the mick would not help.

As I said no offence meant or intended

Another coat of wax on the "vette " ........


Cheers all

[Happyeater]

A bloody Man U fan!!!!!!!

Anyone else interested then????????

;)

[TOPJET973K]

Gentleman:

Happy Eater - you told me you had a season ticket for Old Trafford!!!!! :ok:

Great news from Florida, hope that posting from Elia reassures a lot of people.

Who runs the second hand car lot?? (BW) :uhoh:

Cheers guys

M

[Happyeater]

Hey TJ....stop giving my secrets away. Just cos you've a box at the Stadium of Light!!

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

TJ is Nadia's stunt double !

Happyeater you spelt "LIGHT " wrong !!!!!

Work it out ..

[mike halls]

hI GUYS,

WHAT ABOUT THIS GUYS.

WE ALL KNOW THAT WE HAD 22 MONTHS AGO OVER
415 QUID IN THE BANK AT THE CLUB, NOW WE ARE
IN THE HOLE FOR OVER 200 QUID,BIG TURN AROUND.

I JUST CHECKED OUT ON THE COMPANY'S HOUSE A VERY
INTERESTING DETAIL,THE "NEWCASTLE FLYING SCHOOL"
WAS FORMED EXACTLY 22 MONTHS AGO, WITH MRS KESETVAN
THE DIRECTOR,ALSO ALL OF THE DIRECTORS AND MEMBERS
HAVE RESIGNED,HINT HINT........

IT ALSO HAS THE SAME ADDRESS AS THE AERO CLUB, I WONDER
WHY CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN THIS IN DETAIL FOR ME AND ALL THE
MEMBERS.
QUESTION, WHY WAS THIS FORMED.????
DID ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THIS.?????
HOW WAS IT FUNDED AND WHO PAID FOR IT.????????

WHY WAS LITTLE WINGS AND NEWCASTLE FLYING SCHOOL FORMED CAN ANYONE TELL ME.
THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION TO ASK THE ADMINISTRATORS
WELL WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK.
PLEASE COMMENT GUYS.

ALSO GOOD LUCK Aussie, GOOD TO SEE YOU JUMPING THE MOUNTAINS,JUST SAVE THE CLUB, MATE.

HOPE TO CATCH UP FOR A BEER MATE.

REGARDS TO ALL

MIKE::cool: :ok:

[Happyeater]

Hold Foxtrot, I know, I know. I was sooooo tempted to put a 's' up front but, this is after all a public forum!

[gt500]

message for elia who the hell surpports man u and is buying a club in newcastle

ITS SHOCKING!!!!!!!!!:ok:

THANKS HOPE TO SEE YOU ON WEEKEND
FROM THE LITTLE MAN

[TOPJET973K]

Gentleman

I have already made the administrators aware of Miks's concerns as I had them myself months ago - they were VERY interested.

If there is a good reason behind it then nobody should have anything to worry about.

Nadia's double!!!!!! :ugh:

Cheers

M

[noiseabatement]

Hello Members:

Elia: I sincerely hope all goes well this week for you, good luck mate, you are exactly what our club needs although I doubt Lister, Coulson, Butcher et al will agree, do any of those characters read PPRUNE?

Mike: Somethig stinks to high heaven regarding Little Wings... and The Newcastle Flying School Ltd registered at the same address as The Aero Club, and as Topjet has done I have already spoken to Mike Pott at RMT regarding my concerns, as well as numerous other "sensitive items".

Well , I heard the admimistrators wanted ALL the information so lets give it to them.

Good luck

BB

[Paris Dakar]

TOPJET973K

Many thanks for that :ok:

Once this whole affair is over I think that the ppruners should all get together and partake in some liquid refreshment. We may owe Elia one or two drinks - I really hope so PD;)

PD

noiseabatement,

Thanks to you to (our messages crossed in the post) :)

I was re-reading your last post and I totally agree with your final paragraph, I too have learned more about NAC in the last 2 weeks than I ever picked up in almost 10 years of being a member! My old teacher was right...........I must pay more attention.

PD

[TOPJET973K]

Hi Gents.

Paris Dakar - Bang on mate, wear our PPRUNE username badges, I'll dress up as Nadia (Not!) then I will proceed to drink more pints of Northumbrian Smooth than Steve Marples drinks in a week and a good half a bottle of Jack Daniels then forward bill to a Mr E. Golfin!!! (Sorry Elia :ok: )

Lets hope we can or have something to celebrate soon and I think I echo the sentiments of ALL members who have posted to this thread.

Happy Eater - it's Blyth Spartans mate! :{

Good night folks.

M

[dde0apb]

dde0apb, as an ex-committee member, I hope you will be contacting Mike Pott at RMT to furnish them with your inside information.

I am not sure there is much, if anything, to say. I have opinions about how the club could have been run differently, but I know of of absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any of the people on the committee before me, with me or after me have committed any kind of offence or impropriety.

WHY WAS LITTLE WINGS AND NEWCASTLE FLYING SCHOOL FORMED CAN ANYONE TELL ME.

let me cast a little light on Littlewings. This is my understanding of the story.

Littlewings was originally called Crossco 167 Ltd; a standard form of company name issued to Dickinson Dees solicitors, who used to be at Cross House in the Westgate Road.

The company was incorporated on 4th Jan 1996, and immediately its name was changed to Littlewings (NAC) Ltd. IIRC the (NAC) bit was to differentiate it from the earlier failing Little Wings Engineering which had been an independent engineering firm based in the hangar. The new firm bought out the assets of the old Little Wings, at what many members thought was a seriously inflated valuation of its assets. There was a stormy AGM at the airport hotel about this. The Aero Club took the one issued share in the new company.

On the 2nd of August that year, feeling that the association with the name Little Wings was unhelpful, since some former customers had bad memories of that firm, the committee changed the name of the business once again to Newcastle Aero Engineering Ltd, the name it still holds. Some people continue to refer to the firm as Littlewings; a legitimate, if outdated misconception.

So there is really no mystery there.

AC became a director on 20 December 1995, and according to companies house has been one ever since.

When I was on the committee the business traded at a loss, but this loss was decreasing, and IIRC, it was felt that since it meant the club had control over its own engineering, and the promise of being able to control the fuel supply for the club planes, then this diminishing loss was a price worth paying.

Here\'s the statement of shareholders funds for the period ending on February 28 (or 29) for the following years:

2003 -106,398
2002 -66,886
2001 1,886
2000 -1,942
1999 -27,218
1998 -20,469
1997 -16,727

So, on 28 Feb 1997, the club was effectively giving the engineering firm a "credit facility" of 16.7k. By 2001, the business was actually worth £1,886 to the club; and heading in the right direction. But then it seemed to go horribly wrong.

On another measure, in 2001 the business had a retained profit of £3,828. the next year it was a loss of nearly £69,000 and in the year to 28/2/03 the loss was £39,500. No figures are available on my source for the year to 28/2/04, nor would I expect them necesarily to be available yet.

As I have said before, I think this turnaround is at least as likely to be due to errors of omission, rather than those of commission.

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Mike if you look a little deeper you will find that :
Newcatle Flying School Ltd is registered to an address in Ryton
I cannot remember where I found but will seek it out and post web
address..

TJ we love you really !! ( you did not think that one out)

New info :
Newcastle Flying School Ltd (04894515)
2 Ferdene
Holburn lane Court
Ryton

Inc 10/9/03
Last members list 10/9/04
Listed as non trading


Hope this helps HF (a )
ps I read the above post and if all the bills had been payed by
NAE to NAC would we be in the current situation
Do a director search on KL, interesting !!!




Regards All........

[dde0apb]

The following was addressed, in all innocence I am sure, to JO and MA
Assuming you are now reading, I reiterate that I am not faulting your work or suggesting any wrongdoing on your part. However, I wonder if would you care to make a public statement as to whether in 10 years you believe there have been some dodgy goings on with the bookkeeping (eg two books, strange expenses, occasions you were asked to turn a blind eye etc). In reality you are of course hardly likely to say yes if you believe it to be the case for your own protection - however if you come out and catagorically say No, then maybe it might help us to determine if all we are doing is infact chasing non-existant ghosts. Help us out guys - we all want to get to the bottom of this.
I think given the abuse they have been subjected to on this forum, even if they had something to say, they would do so to the administrators and not to PPRUNE. I know I would keep completely silent in their shoes.

Littlewings
Being unable to see any fundamental reason for the increasing losses you detail in recent years (other than possibly a smaller fleet and two bad summers reducing work), I can only attribute the losses to a failure to invoice work on a massive scale.
During the period where losses mounted the cost of sales actually exceeded the turnover, which seems quote an acheivement. If there was heaps of uninvoiced work then, assuming there was any record of the work, the value of this work ought to have been included as an asset in the accounts. There is some work in progress and other trade debtors but not enough. I wonder if anyone actually knows who needs invoicing and for what?

What is probably the most difficult figure in the whole accounts is the £182,084 which the Aero Engineering Business owed to its parent company, the Aero Club at 28/02/2003.

I am not an accountant, but these are not the accounts of a healthy company. A question I would pose to anyone who was a board member of the parent company, and in particular to the directors of the engineering business itself, is why was this situation allowed to develop, and to continue to develop?

Going back to the £182,084 owed by Engineering to the Club, of course this figure is shown in the Club as an asset. So with the balance sheet showing a value on the club of around £415k, we should understand that £182k of this was pretty illusory.

In greater detail:

Tangible Assets were

Planes and equipment £197,726
Land and Buildings £ 62,826
Fixtures and Fittings £ 24,204

Total Fixed Assets £ 284,757

Current Assets were

Stock and W.I.P £ 2,072
Cash £15,828
Other debtors £15,058
Owed by Engineering £182,084

Total Current Assets £215,042

Total Assets £499,799

less working capital and all liabilities of £84,571

gives a balance of £415,228 as the value of the club.

So.. around 44% of the value of our club was bound up in an engineering business which had little hope if any of ever paying back its parent company.

Now, assume that the engineering business can't pay the bills, the net assets of the club reduce to more like £233,000. And with the various debts that exist, it's easy to see why the club is verging on insolvency.

One final point; I understand there's a mortgage of £60k on RH. I can't see this in the accounts. Again, I am not an expert on reading accounts, but either this is debt incurred since 28 Feb 2003, or I am not reading the accounts right.

[TOPJET973K]

newcastlepilot:

Great posting, I refer to your paragraph regarding old committee of Danielson/McLeod/Prentice & Gilmour.

I am one of those and anybody who knows me will verify that I have never tried to hide the fact that I was proud to have served on the Aero Club committee.

I was elected chairman of house-sub committee. A duty which I enjoyed immensely.

I was involved in the self financing decoration of the bar/rest area when it was done and was pleased with the results.

To say we "hit upon something" is probably an understatement.
Each monthly meeting would be the same scenario - the deposed treasurer reading his financial statement which made no sense at all. I always tried to make it my business to find out exactly what was going on but I was always shown a "closed door".

The final straw was at a meeting when treasurer K. Todd read out a statement claiming innocence in any wrong doing financially, this was followed up by Chairman Danielson informing him that he was under investigation by Special Branch. As I have always presented myself as honest I resigned with immediate effect as I felt extremely uneasy about what was going on.

As I stated earlier, I always conducted myself in a honest manner and anybody that knows me would surely voutch for that.

I have also had lengthy dialogue with RMT administrators about the present situatuation.

But certainly like Barry Lawson, myself and and others felt like we might aswell not be around.

I am open to crtitisism like anybody should be and I do feel a certain amount of "collective responsibility" because of what has happened but this would never make me run away from any responsibility I have.

Cheers

M

Guys

As a folow up to the pathetic annonymous phone call I have just recieved since my last posting.

I have never played my cards "close to my chest" or tried to hide the fact I was a committee member albiet for a short time, also - it certainly wasn't newcastlepilot's last posting that caused me to "show my hand".

I have worked harder than most with Elia to keep all members informed as well as providing him with information that other people quite simply could not have provided.

To that idiot who just phoned me - I wonder how we stack up against each other morally?

Cheers

M

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Gent's.

Sorry but the knives seem to drawn against certain individuals, if they have something of use to RMT it certainly should not be discussed in open forum and we cannot expect them to do so.

Stick together people !!!

One thing of interest to Ncl Pilot, look through the financial statement from the AGM and look at the wage bill for NAE. I think he made as much in overtime as his wage "obtaining money by deception " comes to mind given the same old defects on the same aircraft .
G-NELI is a classic example I defected it for its current fault on a number of ocassions, he signed it of as ok. Then when he finds out he is out of a job he informs the CAA. Another reprobate from Gill courtesey of BB no doubt..

Regards all.......

[CentreFix25]

On another forum someone asked where did the aircraft dissapear to over the weekend? I hadn't noticed them gone, but if so, where to?

[Happyeater]

The planes should be in the old Gill Air hangar. The airport authority didn't want to 'lose control' over where the planes were being held.

[Mu Beta]

I understand the feelings behind all the criticism that has been posted on this forum.
I have also discovered, with some dismay, that anonymous letters have been sent, some making scurrulous accousations of a very personal nature...whoever has doen this should be highly ashamed of such purile behaviour...I would have though better of all those I know who attend the Aero Club.
But for the sake of a Club we all love and want to save, couldn't we all try to pull together to get the Club out of the mess it is in and leave all the criticism till after the Administrators have investigated what's gone on?

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Understood !

We are all getting a little bent out of shape (just being human )

I will rumour that his overtime was more than his salary,as this was what was mentioned to me by a well informed individual and the conversation went something like " all that money for sitting on his laurels ". I can only echo this statement as everytime I had the dubious pleasure of speaking to him he was playing on the internet . No doubt contributing to the excessive phone bill.

Maybe LH could shed light on the figures as that person did the accounts but may not wish to join in so to say !!!!

Cheers all

[Paris Dakar]

Mu Beta,

I agree with your comments, and I don't.

As you can see this whole business is a very emotive subject and something has gone very wrong at our club. I might lose the chance to rent an aircraft and go flying...............some people stand to lose a great deal more than that. Why should that be?

I note that this is your first post and I thank you, but lets be very clear, if a proposal is not forthcoming/accepted then the administrators can do what they like..............it will all be too late and everyone has been shafted.

PD

[Mu Beta]

Paris Dakar
I do agree with you...lots of us will not be able to fly,several innocent people will also lose their jobs...that's why I think we need to try to make some suggestions instead of going for recriminations.
But I do think we should all condem the anonymous stuff that's going about...it does no good at all.

[Paris Dakar]

Mu Beta,

I will PM you - this will help to keep the forum free from slanging matches.

PD

[HiSpeedTape]

If any of you "People" had money (not your £75 membership) tied up in either the Club or the Engineering business then I can sympathise with you. If it is as I suspect however, and none of you did then please stop blowing hot air through your ring pieces.
And for those of you who have belatedly admitted to having held seats on the board and have decided to turn queens council well once again I'm sorry but to me this appears to be a smoke and mirrors trick. What do they say about criminals? Oh yeah, they always revisit the scene of the crime.
The Engineer you are refering to is a good friend of mine, a top class engineer, a professional who was just trying to earn a crust and now finds himself out of a living through no fault of his own. To hear you lot going on about something you most patently know sod all about just makes my blood boil. The anonymity that you believe a PPRUNE username gives you is a falsehood so don't be feeling too smug and secure by hiding behind it posting your poisonous allegations on here. Just a bit of friendly advice from one member to some others.

Lets be careful out there folks.

[Mu Beta]

I should point out that LH didn't do the accounts.
LH's involvement was just to try to sort things out and give a clearer picture of the financial situation, given very little information was forthcoming to help in htis task.

On the matter of clearing things up too...it's my recollection that KL continued to fly on a part-time basis for the club while working for Gill...I'm sure I flew with him when he was in uniform...so when Gill went under, he wasn't actually re-employed, he just re-assumed the CFI responsibilities (though I don't know anything about salaries)

[TOPJET973K]

Members

Just read the remainder of todays postings.

We badly need to keep level heads in all this, things ARE starting to get a bit nasty. While emotions are running high and tempers are at boiling point we need to stick together and remain strong for the good of our club.

Please ladies and gents - lets get the thread back on track and work together.

HST. To add to your post - SK is an extremely good engineer and sorted our fleet when it was "falling to bits". I'm not in a position to comment on his salary package simply because I don't know.
Any good tradesman offered a good package will not turn it down so SK is really hardly to blame if thats the right word.

MB. Here here - I've just echoed your words.

Once again folks - lets "drop the gloves" and think ahead to better things - PLEASE.

Thanks

M

[Mu Beta]

Topjet,
Couldn't agree more...at this stage we should leave the recriminations to one side and try to save our club, and support anyone else who has the same aim.
Let us think about the other stuff once we're up and running again (fingers crossed).

[noiseabatement]

Dear Members:

I can only echo the sentiments of members desires to keep things clean - too many personal attacks recently (of which I have made myself).

For the good of our club and everything else lets stick together and hopefully in the near future we can all enjoy a beer in the club while the designated authorities deal with anybody found guilty of wrong doing.

Good luck

BB

[dde0apb]

Newcastle pilot said
Sorry, I might have missed something obvious - but I can see from your first post the value of Aero Engineering from the Aero Club's point of view had declined to -106K (ie Eng owes Club 106K) at the end of 2003 - so how does this become 182k in your second post. Are we saying the figures in the two company's accounts don't tally.
"Shareholders funds" in the company - ie total assets less total liabilities - show as -£106k. But the total debt to the parent company - the club - is £182k. The difference is a small amount of other debt, and the company's assets. The question is whether these assets could be turned into cash if necessary. If they could, then the number (at 28/02/03) would be £106k; if any of them could not be turned into cash then the number will be somewhere between £106k and £182k.

Assets were given as

Stock and w-i-p &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16,734
Trade debtors &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 27,963
Bank account &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1,578
Other debtors &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13,258
Plant and vehicles &nbsp; &nbsp;35,180
Fixtures and fittings &nbsp;&nbsp; 760
Intangible assets &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;1,501

Total &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 96,974

If any of this - or rather the current figures - could not be turned into cash then more of the debt will be unrecoverable - or the the club will have to wait until the engineering company is in healthy profit.

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Hi All

HST
I hear what you are saying and can only speak as I find.
Brake fluid dripping on my feet in flight on one ocassion and to find the same fault 2 days later urepaired and signed off as fit to fly says it all (I declined to fly it on that ocassion) G-KART:

Take JV flown by many with faulty ammeter/non charge. I will say no more.

We are all entitled to our own opinion's and yes we are all getting peeved but certain individuals have milked NAC.

Please correct me if wrong was SK not handed a KL like contract by Mr Butcher at above normal rate ?

Regards.......

[GolfWhiskeyKilo]

I must admit talk of aircraft problems may not have much to do with the grand scheme of things, but you mention JV and the ammeter problem. I flew JV once. This problem WAS NOT in the tech log but once airborne showed it's head. After landing back I put it in the tech log to be asked why had I done it?!

On other occasions as a new ppl still being heavily influcenced by certain people I was advised not to enter certain problems into the tech log as they needed the plane later. Of course i've learned not to listen...

G-WK - With everything crossed for a happy outcome to all of this - I need to get flying soon!

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

Well said,your last statement

All things aside it is flying at an affordable cost and a decent social outlet ( minus any committee) is what we all want and without the hangers on this may be acheivable.

c152/ pa28/ c172/ does it matter so long as it is safe clean and tidy it's got wings it will fly !

Regards All

[HiSpeedTape]

HF(A)
Now then, not wanting to stray off track again but your previous post begs a few answers. With a mighty 100 hours under your belt :eek:, I'm sure I dont have to tell you that there are many kinds of defects. Some of them may immediately effect the airworthiness of the aircraft and therefore the aircraft is grounded until they are rectified. Others may be assessed as allowable but with restrictions placed on the operation of the aircraft eg VFR flight only or No night flying (faulty electrical system indication) until the defect can be rectified. Others have no impact at all on the operation of the aircraft and therefore the aircraft can be flown as normal pending rectification of the defect. The means to judge the airworthiness implications of the particular defect lie within the MEL and AMM. If, using these criteria to judge whether or not a minor leak from a brake cylinder was serious enough to ground the aircraft, the engineer deemed it to be an immediate airworthiness item, then the aircraft would have been grounded with all the implications that would have had to the club's income ie grounded aircraft = no income. If the engineer had, using the same criteria judged it to be allowable, then it would have made sense for the defect to be deferred until such time as spares and/or ground time were available to rectify it. By all means it is your duty to report any defects but it is the engineers judgement in interprepting the defect using the relevant publications, to either rectify or defer as appropriate. Of course you are also free to either accept or reject the aircraft but, the engineer has fulfilled his obligations in declaring the aircraft airworthy.
To answer your other question, I'm sure that he was offered the going rate for a Licensed (Chief) Engineer in a GA environment.

[dde0apb]

OK guys; lots of post mortem, lots of acrimony or attempts not to be too acrimonious... let's look to the future. Here are a few questions.
If the club gets revived, should any revived club be

Primarily a flight training establishment
Primarily for PPLs to rent planes
A mixture - note this has serious planning and equipment implications
[/list=1]
How important is the presence of a significant bar and social area?
[list=1]
Very
Kind of nice to have
Not important
[/list=1]
What do people want from the aircraft? How important is it that there is commonality
[list=1]
Very important - eg Cherokee through to Arrow
Not important - variety is the spice of life
Don't care
[/list=1]
Now the all important cost questions:
Landing fees; will the landing fees put you off flying at Newcastle and tempt you to Eshott, Fishburn, Durham Tees-Valley, Peterlee etc
[list=1]
Yes, GA is basically over at Newcastle
No, I'll live with the landing fees
Don't know

Now go back to your training, would you pay £6.25 + VAT for each touch and go? So, say £37 quid for an hour of circuits?

Yes
It would make me think again

Then staffing; are you happy for the club to be run on a voluntary basis, or do you require a paid "professional" service from ground staff in the club? What I am getting at is "are you prepared to forgive a little disorganisation and work you have to do yourself for the benefit of cheaper flying" or do you want a customer focussed organisation that exists to persuade you to part with more money than you intended persuing a hobby you love? I think this is a really serious question, because many people are time-poor and want service on the nail if they are going to go flying. Will it matter if the club doesn't open till 10am on a day when you booked a plane at 8.30?

I need rigorous attention to quality service
I'd rather have cheaper flying and won't mind if things don't always run like clockwork

And now the training question; if you were going to train for a CPL/IR and on to an ATPL, would you do it at a revamped Newcastle Aero Club with, say, one Beech Duchess or a Seneca, or would you go to Oxford / Multiflight / Florida etc?

I think these are at least some of the questions that anyone taking over the club will want to have a look at. They might be interested in answers on this forum!

have fun

[HiSpeedTape]

Ok
I'll go first (if thats OK with everyone else;) )

1) B
2) C
3) B
4) A
5) B
6) A
7) B

HST

edited because I didn't read Q1 properly

[Mu Beta]

My answers would be,
1 1 (re the last posting can an instructor train someone outside a fta?)
2 3
3 2
4 2
5 2
6 2
7 Having been to two professional schools, I would actually go for Newcastle...a) because the teaching better in one case and
b) because the costs are astonishing at some of
these places and, if you haven't got
bottomless pockets this is a factor, regretably.

[Paris Dakar]

First off, can I just say that there is a much more positive tone to this thread - and that has to be a good thing for the future - IMHO.

My response is:

1) B

2) B

3) C

4) B - It would be super if Mr Parkin could be persuaded to offer some discounts but I guess this won't happen.

5) A - Reluctantly

6) B

7) As much as I would want to support our club, my guess would be that I would have to head Stateside in order to keep the costs to a minimum. Unless Elia could offer us the course at EGNT for the same price as we'd pay in Florida :) :)

[Charlie32]

Q1 A mixture, the essence of a viable club, bringing in new blood through ab inition training.
Q2 Bar Important focal point for socialising
Q3 For economy one type not necessarily PA28, ideally more modern, with more multi-function (e.g.training, cruising, aeros, instruments)
Q4 Live with landing fees for now but try and negotiate with new CEO
Q5 Yes
Q6 Cheaper flying with volunteers undertaking more duties, both flying and bar/social
Q7 Forget professional training, leave to established centres, a declining niche market.

In addition wouldn't try to run complex engineering business, but set up contact agreement for maintenece with established facility, with some minor work being provided on site at NCL.

[EGNTpilot]

My thoughts on this:


q1) 2

q2) 3, somewhere to sit and have a coffee maybe but not fussed as long as I can fly.

q3) 2

q4) 2, Newcastle is more convenient for me, extra travelling costs and time would probably be more than the current landing fees anyway, plus I accept (although would rather not have to) we have to pay for the facilities a big airport offers.

q5) 1,as above really, however always have the option to fly to carlisle for instance to practice circuits there.

q6) 1, Don't mind paying a little extra for a professionally run outfit, we might not be in this position now if the club had been run as a commercial concern.

q7) I am going for my atpl's in the new year and would consider training at newcastle if the option was available.

[TOPJET973K]

Morning

It's great to see people not wanting to kill each other now :)

Good list of questions:

1) C
2) A
3) B
4) B
5) A
6) A

All personal opinion of course. :ugh:

Just an update on Elia's proposal, progressing nicely - maybe news end of the week/very early next week.

Thanks folks

M

[Hold Foxtrot (again)]

1 hr 100hrs 1,000 hrs what does it matter safety is No 1.

You basically have answered your own post in the last few lines of your post.

An aircraft out of service meant lost revenue,need I say more.

I understand what you are saying and you obviously know who I am.

Subject closed ?

Anybody got any good news ?

[TOPJET973K]

Ladies/Gentleman

Intimidated - about what?

I've provided a great deal of information to this thread, information I was privy too during my unpleasent days and information about the Elia Golfin proposal as I have been working closely with Elia providing him with the necessary information that nobody else could provide. I was one of those committee bods that when I asked any question of a "sensetive" nature I was told that it was either "being dealt with" or "leave well alone and concentrate on the social side."

Everything I know, heard and dealt with has been passed to the administrators.

If you knew me personally then you would realise that I am a man who conducts himself properly, legally and treats people the way that I would like to be treated myself.

Possibly standing for the council of management was the WORST mistake I have made, however you cannot turn back the clock and I served the club honsetly, fairly and gave the members something they hadn't had for years - the minutes of the meeting pinned on the notice board! This was my decision as I felt members had every right to know what was going on, other senior committee members didn't agree. As soon as I had resigned the minutes stopped being posted.

If there is something on your mind that you would like to discuss further then please do not hesitate contact me on the number I sent you via PM the other day.

That fact that poor Barry Lawson claimed he never knew what was going on is very simple - he never asked, for the benefit of the members I made it my business to find out exactly what was going on and I hit somthing called a brick wall & deaf ears.

Cheers

M

[wise737]

WOW - my first time on the forum and what a disappointment.

A friend, as passionate as we all are about the club suggested I look at the forum. What a disaster.

What are you guys doing - you all care about your club - but you seem intent on airing your feelings in public. Factual or not is immaterial. The whole world can see what a fragmented organisation it is. No wonder its going or gone down the pan, with members such as the majority of you. If you had acted with this passion and had the bottle to take an active part months or years ago you wouldnt have the problems you have now - but what have you done - it looks to me reading this forum as though you are typical bar room lawyers. WHY DIDNT YOU STAND FOR COMMITTEE AND DO SOMETHING.

You should all be pulling together, you should not be washing your dirty linen in public. It is hardly surpirising you have problems - some of your comments are incorrect, some are spot on, but some are simply ill feeling and are defamitory.

The whole world can now see Newcastle Aero Club for what it was not - A CLUB - a group of like minded people.

Start working together and stop slagging off almost everyone.