FAA instrument rating or JAR?

[nole9126]

Hi,

I really want to do an instrument rating to make full use of my aircraft. I understand with an FAA instrument rating that my aircraft will have to be on an FAA (n) registration, this however is an advantage when it comes to servicing so I have found out.

Would anyone be able to lend thier opinion on which instrument course to do. I do appreciate that the JAR instrument rating is a lot more time consuming.

Thanks:confused:

[PhilD]

You could make a start by reading some of the many threads that already exist on this subject.

[nole9126]

thanks, i'll have a look. I didn't actually see any that specifically had this kind of question in them but i'll look again. You may want to make a start by learning some manners.

[IO540]

I have PM'd Nole but I would like to add that while there are countless threads (here and at flyer.co.uk and other places) on the FAA PPL/IR route, a lot of the info in them is very wrong.

I am doing this route myself now and while there are certain very specific people posting here and elsewhere who I just happen to know are up to date, a lot of the rest of the info isn't of much value.

And that's before one gets to the (few) people posting here who make what appear to be deliberately misleading statements e.g. claiming that the CAA is about to clamp down on FAA licenses or aircraft, etc, etc.

If one wants to do the lot in the USA, then you (supposedly) get a VISA and s0d off to Florida for a couple of months and do the lot there. That is the simplest way to do it - if you can find the time away.

It is the UK route which is more complicated, and doubly so if one wants to do it in a G-reg plane, or in a G-reg plane initially which will go N-reg later...

[Aim Far]

Might be worth checking that your aircraft is n-registrable and, if so, what is the price of the re-registration and factoring that into your calculations (or factoring the price of changing plane).

For various reasons, having obtained my FAA IR with the intention of going N-reg, I am now looking at JAA IR as the only realistic option if I want to stick with my current aircraft :(

[nole9126]

Thanks for the replys.

Our aircraft actually came to England on an 'N' reg. I never thought about the cost involved with changing the reg over again, well I at least didn't think it would be that large. I'll look in to that.

thanks

[Chilli Monster]

nole

If the aircraft has been on the 'N' reg then getting it back on is fairly straight forward. You'll have to get a U.S trust set up but there are people who specialise in doing it all for you - have a look at http://www.southernaircraft.co.uk for more details.

As for the IR. Yes, a lot easier than the JAR route in terms of ground exam preparation - it's a lot more practical based (which is how it should be - let's be honest). Best way to do it is pick a school that can provide you with the I-20 paperwork that will enable an M-1 visa to be issued.

Naples Air Centre in Florida seems to be a firm favourote with a lot of people with a high succes rate. I went to California and used Rainbow Air/Angel City Flyers. You'll probably find recommendations for both on these forums.

What I would advise if you go down this road however is to 'team up' with somebody who has experience of the European IFR environment after you qualify for a few hours at least. There are a lot of procedural differences in terms of airspace, clearances, services available etc between the two environments which you wil probably need explaining, the only way of really learning of which is by experience.

[rustle]

As for the IR. Yes, a lot easier than the JAR route in terms of ground exam preparation - it's a lot more practical based (which is how it should be - let's be honest).

As a matter of interest, is your comment written as an ATCO, an FAA IR holder, or an impartial observer?

[Chilli Monster]

Umm..................interesting question.

First the ground exams. The FAA exams covered everything that I'm likely to use in the type of flying that I do. In addition they were relatively easy to study for, and the examinations themselves could be done when I wanted to do them.

On the other hand I've seen the JAR syllabus (we've got a guy in work doing his ATPL's at the moment) and there is so much crap in there you'd never use flying around Europe to make it ridiculous.

Coupled with this I have a proper day job, with only a limited amount of leave I can take - I'm not wasting that doing residential courses followed by traditional grammar school type exams at a time and place dictated by somebody sat in an office at the Belgrano. It's just not possible in my position. I work with other people who also have a leave entitlement. We're not that flush with staff (What do you think this is - NATS ;) )

As for the Flying:

In the day job I see a lot of CAAFU initial IR tests, which all follow the same set piece 'script' as it were. It's the same - day in, day out - I know what's going to happen from the minute the aircraft gets pre-noted. No doubt the candidate does too.

As an FAA IR holder I can only relate my own experience, which was the examiner testing me and then pushing that little bit further - a learning experience in itself. When he found I was competent in something he moved on to something else. I never knew what was coming next. Coupled with the Oral (2 hours) the flight test (2.5 hours) was probably amongst the most demanding but enjoyable flying I've ever done.

Hopefully the above cover the 'impartial observer' bit too ;)

[rustle]

Good answer, Chilli :)

It is MHO though, since your profile states "CPL/IR" and your occupation "ATCO", that it is relevant to this thread that you've never flown with a CAAFU examiner, never done the JAA IR groundschool, and never (let's be honest ;) ) been briefed by a CAAFU examiner as to standards to be maintained, that comments like: No doubt the candidate does too. shouldn't be there...

I, for one, wouldn't comment about an FAA-IR checkride if I had never done one.

It seems to me that here and at Flyer Forums those with FAA IRs seem to have a bit of a chip on their shoulders -- a chip they seem determined to share with CAA/JAA IR holders...

FTR, I ain't hungry :)

[Chilli Monster]

Rustle - you asked an honest question, which was answered honestly. If you don't like the answer then I'm sorry but - tough.

No chip at all in my case. If I had the time to do it then I'd love to, but unfortuanatly I don't. That coupled with the fact that the aircraft I'm required to fly don't have a 'G' on the side. Coming out with such statements however I could say conversely that the CAA PPL/IR tries to come across with an unwarranted superiority complex. I could - but I won't.

(I've flown with and worked with both varieties. There's a few JAR IR holders who haven't impressed me).

Whether I've been briefed by a CAAFU examiner or not I don't think is relevant, and don't see how you think it is. I do however know the standards required from such examiners (when you get to a certain point in professional aviation you discover it's a very small world).

And for your interest, I have done the UK PPL/IR groundschool (pre-cursor to JAR) - just never took the exams for the reasons stated (that plus working in a not particularly convenient part of the country).

Not even hungry for a small slice of pie? ;)

[rustle]

Whether I've been briefed by a CAAFU examiner or not I don't think is relevant, and don't see how you think it is.

It is entirely relevant.

During the preflight brief the CAAFU examiner needs to ascertain that there is nothing unclear about his/her expectations of the flight -- he/she is self-loading freight, will comment little and direct even less.

This understanding is critical, lest we in CAA/JAA land endup with a situation where the candidate blames an inflight bad decision on, say, an interruption from the RHS, or an unclear instruction...

Given the US' preoccupation with litigation I am surprised they don't prebrief to the same extent. :hmm:

(that plus working in a not particularly convenient part of the country).
Yes, checking my atlas I can see that Filton is considerably closer to West Coast USA than it is to Gatwick, Bournemouth, Bristol, Oxford or Cranfield :)

[drauk]

It is interesting to me that the pilots with whom I did my FAA IR in the US complained that the FAA written exam was full of irrelevant details.

Can anyone who has done both tell me what information in the CAA IR ground school would be important/useful for an FAA IR pilot over and above what they would have covered in the FAA exam and oral, assuming a private pilot flying a SEP in Europe? I'm not suggesting there isn't anything; I'm genuinely interested.

[Chilli Monster]

Rustle

Smart arse comments like that do you no credit. I was, as I said, in an inconvenient place at the time. You don't know everything, about me, my past, or my work history. Debate is good - but don't get personal.

[rustle]

Lighten up, 'twas a joke :)

What about the other, even-less-humorous, part of my last? Does that clarify why IRT candidates will typically follow the same profile as each other?

[slim_slag]

I can see that people who have FAA certifications might be a bit evangelistic when spreading the good news to some less civilised parts of the world :), but chip on our shoulders? No doubt I've picked up a few notches over the years, but being able to easily get and use an FAA IR is one of the truly uplifting things around. Don't waste your time and money with the JAA; N-reg planes and FAA certificates for all :ok:

No chip here!

There is a lot of nonsense on this web site (probably some from me) but Chilli\'s post was one of the best for some time. Well presented and I learned something from it.

[rustle]

"A bit evangelistic"!

That's the understatement of the millennium :)

On some internet fora discussing instrument flight it's like being at a Billy Graham convention once the FAA is mentioned (usually by reply 2) ;)

[slim_slag]

Don't fight us rustle, join us, dedicate your life to the teachings of The Book (FAR/AIM) and the almighty Administrator (sorry, forgotten his/her name). You know it makes sense, resistance is futile blah blah blah.

How about you send me all the money you would have saved by doing an FAA IR instead of that CAA one and I'll spend it on some Mission to the UK? First class all the way of course as all evangelists do.. :ok:

[rustle]

Hit "dialectize" (http://rinkworks.com/dialect/dialectp.cgi?dialect=redneck&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3F s%3D%26postid%3D1612179%23post1612179)

Now I understand the attraction ;)

[slim_slag]

lol, hear them on frequency all the time in the Deep South, one wonders how those folk pass the 'must speak and understand English' test. You might have something there rustle, FAA standards are lower - but it's obviously infectious as you also hear speedbird/virgin pilots getting just as sloppy when talking to ATC in US airspace.

[englishal]

The only reason I don't have a JAA IR (and fine qualification it is)is costs.

£280 / hr ME IR training x 7
£190 / hr Sim x 10
£250 landing fees
£500 accomodation
£3000 ground exams
£1000 exam fees

And this would be to convert an existing IR in the minimum time.

For the aircraft owner / PPL who wants to improve their skills, the FAA IR is the only real option. The IMC is a good qualification in the UK but it limits you to the UK (pretty much).

An FAA IR from scratch in the US will cost $6,555 (£3800) plus flights but including accomodation, ground exams and everything, and can be completed in 14 days......

;)

[rustle]

Since CAA/JAA-IR bashing is such a favorite pastime here, I'll save my time defending them yet again and just link back to threads where these same issues have been thrashed out time and time before...

Costs: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1518019#post1518019

I know facts really get in the way of ranting about UK flying costs, but I'll risk posting that link anyway ;)

It is refreshing to see that irony is not only lost on Americans, but on individuals of any nationality who hold American qualifications as well ;) :cool: :8

[slim_slag]

Now come on rustle, you did a fine job (and still are) of bashing all FAA certificate holders, it really doesn't become you. I don't see any irony in your original posts and am wondering where the chip really lies.

You can still come over to the dark side any time you want :) just like a lot of your fellow CAA certificate holders do all the time. I'm not sure how many go the other way, how many fingers do you have?

[englishal]

I don't undertand that table, but then again I don't have the JAA ground exams :p

The costs I qouted were a direct quote from a certain establishment at EGHH, one of the cheaper ones, who have a very good reputation.

So for me to convert, would cost £8,610 in pounds sterling. Of course the £280 per hour is for a BE76 and not an arrow.

Doh, I just forgot, there is the license issue fee as well

:oh: ;) :}

We only give as good as we get ;) and you know we're only jealous:}

[slim_slag]

Those figures given maybe lifted from another web site but they are not realistic for cost of FAA ratings. A private for $4k is no longer really doable in the real world of flying schools, I suspect there is a nice disclaimer on there saying 'minimum hours only'.

It's also quite easy in FAA land to get your IR for less cost than it does to get your private. Think along the lines of only 15 hours dual instruction required, the rest can be flown under the hood with a safety pilot sharing the costs. You don't need an instructor sitting next to you all the time when just going round and round in the hold and when shooting approaches. You might not like it, but thems are the regs. Heck, an IMC rating can be obtained for 15 hours total, and that lets you do a lot of scary stuff. So perhaps one should find out about reality on the US side of the Atlantic before spouting forth?

So, in the same spirit (how about that for irony) :) ----- from what I can tell, people b!tch and moan far more about the ground requirements of CAA/JAA IRs, not the flight requirements. Having to take time off work to do groundschool is of significant cost to many, and for some more than the cost of the flying. This should be factored into total cost.

Of course I don't really care, I have my religeon and am happy with it. :ok: But more important, why is the weather so miserable where I am now in England?

[rustle]

slim, the real irony comes of the fact that someone inevitably goes off on one about how CAA/JAA-IR holders put down the FAA-IR, then spends the next 8 pages on PPRuNe or Flyer forums telling the world about all the problems with the CAA/JAA method -- whether it is too much groundschool, too expensive, not enough carryover hours from IMC training -- that's ironic, don't you think (apologies to Alanis ;) )

[IO540]

A lot of people like to knock the FAA IR because it is supposedly easy to get. However, looking at the typical UK scenario of an IMCR pilot going to the FAA IR:

It would be very rare to get an IMCR in just 15hrs dual training, such that one can fly to the privileges. 20-25 is more like it. And I bet most will be owner pilots who do plenty of hours. (Every PPL/IR I know is an owner or in a small group of IR/ATPL pilots)

Most IMCR holders let it lapse without using it "for real". (Most new PPLs lapse too, as it happens...)

So I would suggest that of the relatively small % of IMCR pilots who go on to do the FAA IR, most of them will have plenty of IMC hours to easily satisfy the 40hrs FAA experience requirement, they will have the 15hrs dual instruction in their logbook already (from the IMCR training) and with additional IR training of say 10-20 hours they will have a perfectly solid load of training. And this is without going anywhere near a simulator.

Very few people go to USA to get an PPL/IR from scratch, and I don't think one could anyway without clocking up some 200-300 hours cross country. Again, every PPL/IR I know flies a load of hours - they are very experienced pilots who are rarely found stuck under the LTMA at 2400ft. I do 150hrs/year which is plenty but all of them do a lot more than that.

The people that DO get an IR in the fewest possible hours, with the minimum relevant (to IFR flight) experience, are people doing an ATPL. Perhaps it is in recognition of this that the JAA IR makes people work a lot harder on the ground, knowing they will do the least flying they possibly can. And at the cost of flying a twin on one of the ATPL courses one can hardly blame them for not doing unnecessary flying. Of the people I know who want to be airline pilots, very few can afford to fly frequently themselves, so their IR training is likely to be the only time they get to be P1, alone, in IMC.

In the end, the proof is in the lack of accidents. There isn't a problem. If there was, I bet the CAA would clamp down. Presently, they have no "safety" case for doing anything whatsoever. And we all know that "safety" is like child pornography - one can get anything passed just by mentioning it.

[chrisbl]

Rustle,
During the preflight brief the CAAFU examiner needs to ascertain that there is nothing unclear about his/her expectations of the flight -- he/she is self-loading freight, will comment little and direct even less. This understanding is critical, lest we in CAA/JAA land endup with a situation where the candidate blames an inflight bad decision on, say, an interruption from the RHS, or an unclear instruction...

Given the US' preoccupation with litigation I am surprised they don't prebrief to the same extent.

In fact the prebrief I experienced was extensive, and covered everything from the route, to emergencies real or simulated with the reminder that I was PIC not the examiner.

If I wanted any assistance, I was to explain what I wanted (in my case when doing turns under partial panel, I asked the examiner to give me magnetic compass headings to ensure I was not peaking out from under the hood). There was no problem asking up front as we both knew that partial panel was on the test.

The other area we discussed was the use of the autopilot. His view was its there use it if it helps, but he would ask me to disengage it if he thought the A/P was doing the flying not me. Fortunately I decided when to put it on and take it off.


The reason why the give a thorough briefing is to ensure that the pilot is clear of whats expected of him with a view to helping him pass the test.

I doubt whether litigous US lawyers are whats in the head of the examiners at the time.

[Capt. Manuvar]

I cannot comment much on the FAA and JAA IRs. I have a Canadian Multi IFR rating but have done the JAA and FAA ground schools (or at least some of...). 90% of the content in the JAA sylabus is only useful for wiping your a***. The FAA and the Canadian IRs are more practical and to the point. I can't comment on the flying syllabus of the JAA and FAA IRs.
Chrisbl,
It's nice to know that the CAAFU allow the use of A/P. In Canada, you can get marked down on the IR test for not using the A/P at all, if available (Bad cockpi management). Autopilot is mandatory for (Commercial) single-pilot IFR over there.
Capt. Manuvar

[Flyin'Dutch']

Rustle,

I am seriously starting to get worried about you.

This is the second time in 2 days that you are moaning about FAA types having a chip on their shoulder.

What is your problem?

I hope to get my JAR IR in the near future.

I suspect it will depend on my willingness to spend money time and effort on the subject rather than flying prowess whether I succeed or not.

The same would probably apply to you if you wanted to get an FAA IR, if it was not for the fact that the FAA is happy for you to be issued with an IR on the basis of your JAR one, providing you have given a demonstration in a written test of your knowledge on the subject and their regulations.

Would I bother to get a JAR IR if I could exercise all the IR privileges in a G reg? Don't think so.

[rustle]

Well chaps, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say.

Anyone reading this thread will draw their own conclusions, but I haven't read here anyone criticise the FAA regime at all nor any US certificated flyers (except my obviously tongue-in-cheek reference to irony :rolleyes: ), but a barrage of criticisms aimed at JAA...

Still. All good fun :hmm:

Frank - healthy debate is good for you, so fear not :)

BTW, I ain't "moaning" - it is an observation, not a criticism ;)

[englishal]

but I haven't read here anyone criticise the FAA regime at all nor any US certificated flyers (except my obviously tongue-in-cheek reference to irony ), but a barrage of criticisms aimed at JAA...
You are deluded Rustle. Go back and review every post here, and look for the JAA IR bashing ones. Interesting that you will find none.

Peoples arguements of why they don't / do the JAA IR are all reasoned. For me its cost, for others its time. This is not bashing, just statements but for some reason you interpret this as "Bashing". Tell me about your childhood.......:D

All good fun though, maybe FAA boys and girls do it with a sense of humour?:}

[rustle]

englishal -- posted 19th November 2004 08:39
You are deluded Rustle. Go back and review every post here, and look for the JAA IR bashing ones. Interesting that you will find none.

All jokes aside, surely numeracy is a requirement for issuing an IR of any flavour?

I count 4. Maybe they've become so insidious people don't even realise they're doing it anymore...

None of them even attempt to dress themselves up as "humour"...

Here's a reminder:


Chilli Monster -- posted 17th November 2004 22:21
On the other hand I've seen the JAR syllabus (we've got a guy in work doing his ATPL's at the moment) and there is so much crap in there you'd never use flying around Europe to make it ridiculous.

slim_slag -- posted 18th November 2004 09:29
Don't waste your time and money with the JAA

englishal -- posted 18th November 2004 11:44
For the aircraft owner / PPL who wants to improve their skills, the FAA IR is the only real option.

Capt. Manuvar -- posted 19th November 2004 00:43
90% of the content in the JAA sylabus is only useful for wiping your a***.


Not sure who's deluded.

I'm certain it ain't me though :)


BTW, slim, missed this earlier:
So perhaps one should find out about reality on the US side of the Atlantic before spouting forth?My numbers in that table come from NAC's website -- I followed the link from their advert on PPRuNe -- they often get talked about on here so I assumed they knew how much it cost to train Stateside :rolleyes:

[englishal]

Hmm....a bit of paranoia me thinks. You've quoted everyone out of context.

For the aircraft owner / PPL who wants to improve their skills, the FAA IR is the only real option.

When taken in context becomes:

The only reason I don't have a JAA IR (and fine qualification it is)is costs......blah........For the aircraft owner / PPL who wants to improve their skills, the FAA IR is the only real option.

I don't think people were putting down the holy JAA IR, the point was being made that for a PRIVATE pilot who isn't an airline Wannabe, then the FAA IR is a suitable alternative, better than the IMC rating.

Still, you carry on tracking your single needles, and I'll keep flying my GPS approaches, then we'll both be happy;)

[rustle]

Paranoid and deluded -- I'd better apply for my visa immediately ;)

Hopefully not out of context: Still, you carry on tracking your single needles, and I'll keep flying my GPS approaches, then we'll both be happy you can't resist can you?

Every opportunity imply the UK rating is in some way "backward". :rolleyes:

We'll only both be happy when that stops happening here and elsewhere...

Rest assured the annual renewal (yes, annual renewal ;) ) allows you or even encourages you to use not only steam driven instruments for situational awareness, but any/all IFR approved kit at your disposal.

[englishal]

you can't resist can you?

Doh, where is the brick wall to bang my head on? Paranoia is really getting the better of you!!!!:ooh:

NO, I did not imply that the JAA IR was inferior, thats all in your brain!!! Single needle tracking is far harder than other things (I've just done a load of it in the states), and I never said it wasn't!!! My point was that you do your thing and I'll do mine.

Right, can we let this lie please, I think that the message isn't getting across in the written word.

Time for a beer:cool: :ok:

[rustle]

Time for a beer

Okay. Mine's a Bud, please ;):}

[englishal]

Okay, no problem :ok:

[slim_slag]

Morning rustle, I've been annoying them on other forums, have not had a chance to get back here :)

Think you need to fully quote me.....

I have no idea who you are but you seem to spend a lot of your spare time doing good things for GA in the UK, which is why I said your obvious FAA certificate holder bashing did not become you. I also accept you took the numbers off the NAC site in good faith. I still think they are not realistic, perhaps NAC could publish the median and average/standard deviation times to completion for all their ab-initio private pilot. Actually I don't expect them to do that, it is a very competitive market and most places quote minimum times so people have a good comparison. However there are some that quote reasonable times. Average time to PP-ASEL in FAA land is around 55 hours.

Anyway, next time you bash FAA folk I will let others bash back :) Maybe...

[nole9126]

I started this thread lying actually, I already have an FAA IR which I did this summer after I finished my A-level exams.

I would never knock the JAA IR because I know people who have it.

However....I do think that they (jaa IR pilots) need to start looking forward a bit more, I wouldn't mind betting that 75% of JAA Inst. rated pilots don't know how to load an approach on a GPS. More to the point they wouldn't do it anyway. Even airline pilots that I talk to frown upon the GPS. I don't know any different really because when I started flying I was very used to lots of computer screens on the instrument panel. I fly into a farm strip using a pre-planned approach using my GPS, HSI and local radar people. How many JAR IR rated pilots would do this!??? You say you wouldn't do it because it's dangerous or something but I think it's really because you were not shown how.

ALL SAID....if you want to be a pro-pilot (airline person) in europe then do the JAR ATPL

[dublinpilot]

So what exactly was the point of starting this thread?

Were you hoping to start an argument?

Were you simply wondering if you'd made a mistake in chosing the FAA IR, and wanted to get other's advise, without admitting you'd gone the FAA route?

Or were you simply making Russells point for him, and looking for an opportunity to bash the JAA/IR pilots?

Really....I can't see your point in starting this thread if you already have an IR.

Dublin(non-IR)Pilot

:hmm: :hmm:

[S-Works]

yeah but it did give plenty of room for the inevitable and entertaining cat fights!!

:p

[nole9126]

No I didn't really want to start an argument but I can't say that I didn't think it wouldn't happen, I really just wanted to see what FAA pilots thought about there rating after they had come home from the states. There may be some people who replied that were from the states but predominantly I think they were all from Europe as the JAR IR was compared very well.

Dublin pilot if you were instrument rated then you would understand why i started the forum you muppet! you completely contradicted yourself.

[Aim Far]

I really just wanted to see what FAA pilots thought about there rating after they had come home from the states

Then a question phrased along the lines "What did FAA pilots think about their (and please note the spelling - how many A-levels did you get exactly?) rating after they had come home from the states?" might have (a) produced more relevant answers and (b) saved some people wasting their time.

I started this thread lying actually

I'll bear that in mind next time you post. There's only one muppet on this thread I think.

[englishal]

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent.

Seems so I'm afraid.

Anyway, i wasn't arguing, I call it healthy discussion, and would buy most of the people on here a beer anyway given the chance (so long as I get one back :} )

[rustle]

Ah, bose-x, you've joined the thread...

Are you still studying for your JAA-IR?

When you get it remember all the delightful pisstakes that non-FAA IR holders get here and on Flyer forum. (The implication being that only a dïckhead would waste that much time, effort and money - oh how you'll laugh ;) )


I'm still waiting for the beer EA, but FTR, my reference to Bud was a shot at irony as well :E :cool: ;). (I really must stop doing that cos it doesn't travel well on the internet :{ ) We really must discuss this over that beer sometime, but I'll have a Carlsberg please...

[nole9126]

Fair ponits guy's they are taken in.

[englishal]

I'm still waiting for the beer EA, but FTR, my reference to Bud was a shot at irony as well
I thought as much, but I didn't want to wind you up any further, as I thought you'd crack :}

I'm a Guiness man myself, none of this crappy American beer;)

[slim_slag]

Plenty of little microbreweries around if you look but requires lot of bad beer to find the gems. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale isn't too bad for a big established brand, wouldn't believe it's owned by Coors :yuk: Quite strong, but can provide morning pain and suffering. Relevance to aviation? Don't fly on Sierra Nevada hangover even when legally sober, put that on a NASA form once :uhoh: :(

[dublinpilot]

Nole,

I fail to see how I have contradicted myself. In my earlier post, I asked 4 questions, but only made one statement. Even I can't contradict myself with just one statement! ;)

As for the name calling.......lets leave that out. :rolleyes:

For what it's worth, I agree with Aimfar. If you had asked the question that you really wanted to know the answer to, you might have got more relevant answers. :ok:


dp