BA pilots told not to trust BA engineers

[Justbelowcap]

Latest message to Big Airways flight crew is:

At the Captain's discretion, technical advice may be requested. Before taking any action based on this advice the Captain should verify that the advice is authorised by an appropriate Flight Operations Department manager. Captains must then assess such information in relation to the situation concerned, prior to applying it.

Great so we can't trust Maintrol (engineering) unless a flight ops manager has authorised the action. Do these people ever fly in the real world? How long is it going to take to get this authorisation? How do we get this authorisation at 39 000ft? Another backwards step for flight safety and another giant leap forward for the red tape brigade.

[maxy101]

Look on the bright side...we'll have such technical brains as SW and co making sure Maintrol know what they are talking about....

[BOAC]

JBC - there's always ACARS and HF at 39,000ft and you would not have to accept the advice EVEN if SW says it is ok!!:D

The good news is that at 39,000ft if time is of the essence, theappropriate Flight Operations Department manager. if not you, sits on your left:D

[spannerless]

Hurrah!

time for the old flight engineers to dust down their uniforms and come back out of retirement!

[208]

as an engineer that works in maintrol( not BA but close) pilots are free to reject our advice.....but if a pilot did reject any advice with a safety implication we to can write MORs and even file direct to the CAA without going via the company.

We occasionally have 3 way talks with the pilot/fleetmanager and Maintrol on interpretation of the MEL as in some cases the meanings to engineering differ from that of our pilot freinds.
As these occur with the aircraft on the ground at an outstation I have no difficulty though the real enemy OPS sometimes does.

Just a different veiw on the topic:O

[Diesel]

208

I think the concern is that once given advice, it should not be followed unless it has specifically been approved by a flight ops manager. You may have the best advice to give me available. But now it appears that I must run your advice past a manager BEFORE I can act upon it.

Makes me think someone followed some advice they should not have.

[lomapaseo]

What the hell!!

advice is advice no matter who gives it to the captain.

I've given advice lots of times and nobody's crashed yet :E

[IceViper]

I like it !!!

1) Call engineering at my discretion ask for some advice....

2) Check & obtain name of manager that authorised it....

3) Apply the advice...

When the proverbial hits the fan refer to item 2 !!!

[Suggs]

Let me think about this

Do I trust an Eng or a Manager?

That was difficult.

Personally speaking I have never been disappointed by the professionalism or knowledge in the hanger. Waterworld is a differernt metter. I wish that I was as good at my job as the Eng's are at their's. (Even with EWS!!)

[Jet II]

At the Captain's discretion, technical advice may be requested. Before taking any action based on this advice the Captain should verify that the advice is authorised by an appropriate Flight Operations Department manager.

If the Captain were asking for advice from an Engineer, I would assume that it would be of a technical nature. So I don't quite see how the Flight Ops Manager is qualified to overrule engineering advice - do these managers have any Engineering qualifications.:confused:

[trytofly]

Suggs

Hear Hear

[ratarsedagain]

Personally, I'd take the advice of any one of our excellent engineers over our impotent managers anytime.

[fiftyfour]

If I worked for BA, I would ignore a stupid statement like this from management.

When a captain asks for technical advice - that's what he wants - technical advice - not extra management input. The captain is already a senior manager in his company anyway- and if he isn't, or isn't regarded as one it is a very sad state of affairs.

Once the captain has the advice, he chooses to accept or not - and then takes the can for everything that results from it - that's what he's paid for and that's what the passengers and crew are relying on him doing.

[FunctionedSatis]

This seems a very odd thing to do. im trying to read this in a different way but it all seems to be pointing to the strange need to verify maintrol advice.

BA's maintrol is located in the compass ctr along with OPS where they surley talk to one another anyway. Is this just to ensure that any engineering advice that has an operational impact is also agreed with ops? im trying to read between the lines. For an ops manager to disregard engineering advice would be lunacy! obviously the final decision rests with the commander.

I know a couple of maintrol Eng's and what they dont know about there a/c could be writen on the back of a postage stamp!

Being a BA eng myself i find this very worrying but not surprising.

[peeteechase]

Come on guys,
Is this the place to discuss this?
Suggest www.balpa.org or the BA section
ATB,
ptc

[H721]

your airline must be adequately staffed. how many flt ops big boys you have. it sounds you'll have 'an appropiate flt ops manager' on duty 24 hours of the day otherwise how can people make swift decision for a difficult situation at FL 390 at 2:00 am

[maxy101]

H721 Our airline is more than adequately staffed. That is part of the problem. Layers of unneeded mgmt sticking their oar in to the operation.

[Golden Rivet]

As an Engineer I can see where this is coming from.

Advice from Maintrol is just that, there is no legally binding signature in the tech log.

If it all goes horribly wrong after the crew has been advised to percuss valve X, cycle switch Y or reset circuit breaker Z, can Maintrol be held legally responsible ? I doubt it.

:rolleyes:

[cirrus01]

Always thought that the Captain had to consult the "In Charge" with decisions about the aircraft.!!! remember the previous thread a few months ago after a Chirp report from a CSD...?

:= := :=

[Le Pen]

Suggs and ratarsedagain.....................

Thank you very much for the vote of confidence. I will go off to work this afternoon with a smile on my face and a spring in my step!

:ok: :ok: :ok:

Love

LP

[SLF3]

Two scenarios:

'Engineering say it's OK and you can go.'

Will this advice always be endorsed by 'management'?

'Engineering say it's marginal but recommend you............'

Will this advice always be endorsed by 'management'?

The only reason I can see for management endorsing engineering advice is if they want the opportunity to change it.

Or am I missing something?

[5415N]

Rumour has it that this is to do with an IFSD on a 400, which , after maintrol where consulted , resulted in a return to lhr with the required dumping etc . Flt ops where of the view that given that there was sufficient fuel onboard then the flt should have continued to it`s destination .
The main reason that the engs suggested a return was purely based on an engineering input ( which is quite correct ) and not in relation to all the other factors such as trip disruption , pax handling etc

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

'Always remember the big picture'. Seems to make sense to me. Overreaction to a sensible directive?!

[fatmantoo]

I THINK THAT JOB SECURITY MAY HAVE A CONTRIBUTING
FACTOR. I MEAN WITH TODAYS MODERN AIRCRAFT THE
SOFTWARE INSTALLED MEANS THE PILOT(S) HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH INFO AT THEIR FINGERTIPS TO MAKE MAINTROL ALMOST REDUNDANT, ESPECIALLY AS ALREADY POINTED OUT FRIDAY 3 PM TO MONDAY 9AM NO MANAGERS ARE AVAILIABLE ANYWAY.

[Just an Engineer]

I THINK THAT JOB SECURITY MAY HAVE A CONTRIBUTING FACTOR. I MEAN WITH TODAYS MODERN AIRCRAFT THE SOFTWARE INSTALLED MEANS THE PILOT(S) HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH INFO AT THEIR FINGERTIPS TO MAKE MAINTROL ALMOST REDUNDANT

Coming from an engineer (as your profile states) that was the biggest load of bunkum I have read in a while

Firstly Maintrol have more that enough work without resorting to advising crews on aircraft status in the air. In fact I would hazard a guess that you have never worked in Maintrol or indeed as a Line Engineer at all....

Secondly modern aircraft are no less susceptable to electrical glitches/sporadic defects etc...and often this means a radio call to Maintrol (or back to the outgoing line station) for maybe simply some re-assurance/advice on a particular indication.

[ukeng]

SOFTWARE INSTALLED MEANS THE PILOT(S) HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH INFO AT THEIR FINGERTIPS TO MAKE MAINTROL ALMOST REDUNDANT

Eh? That has to be the most ridiculous statement i've seen on a forum this year.

[rightstuff]

Maintrol is an important function that should cordinate Engineering and Operations. The working relationship between the two in the airline that I work for is excellant, however there would be a lot to say if a technical decision had to be first approved by a non technical manager, no matter what his seniority within the company.
Fatmantoo, your profile states that you are an engineer, is that a licenced aircraft engineer or is it something that you like to think youself as. It seems these days in and outside of the industry, that if you can tell the differance between a screwdriver and a wrench you are automatically an engineer, with or without the necessary qualifications.
What do the senior engineering managers within BA have to say about this, and the pilot management, and more to the point, the CAA.
An IFSD to my way of thinking and to anyone with a grain of common sense would require an immediate diversion to the nearest convenient airport. Passenger safety and welfare is paramount and trip disruption is a small price to pay in comparission.

[Tempsford]

In the case of modern Hi-tech aircraft, all is well when all is working well. It is when things go wrong that the value of well trained Flight Deck Crews and Engineers becomes even more apparent.
Indeed, a factor that cannot be under estimated is the level of trust and understanding between Flight Deck Crews and Engineers. The true strength and value of this relationship is only aparent to those who fully understand the importance of this bond. I have seen examples where such a bond has helped a situation be resolved in a very timely manner time and time again. I have also seen examples where bad decisions were made by people who thought they knew better purely because they were in senior positions within a company.
I recognise the need to be operationally, commercailly and financially aware, but there are areas that we touch at our peril. There are also areas where people who are not qualified, experienced or operationally aware should leave decisions to those that know what they are talking about.

This mail is not meant to offend anyone, and I am only expressing my opinion.

Temps

[mrsmaryhinge]

WITH TODAYS MODERN AIRCRAFT THE SOFTWARE INSTALLED MEANS THE PILOT(S) HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH INFO AT THEIR FINGERTIPS

You obviously do not fly the classic 737's!!

[PondLifeMan]

737 classic???????????????????

Not exactly a modern aircraft.

However, today, within BA we think of maintrol more like the samaritans than the highly knowledgeable team they once were.

All you get these days is sympathy. Typical scenario below..........

Eng: Hi, I've got an aircraft here with a complete radio system failure.

Maintrol: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, how does that make you feel?

Eng: Ummm, it makes me feel bad.... Is that the 747 desk? I really could do with a few pointers.

Maintrol: Oh, yes this is the 747 desk. What are you planning to do? How does the captain feel about returning to base with it?

Eng: The captains not happy about it either. Its a no go item. Have you seen this problem before?

Maintrol: Oh no I'm not fully covered on this aircraft, I'm just here because the person who knows about radio/radar on the 747 retired 3 years ago and I was in the job link and it seemed like a good place to work.

Eng: Thank you and goodbye!

Bit over the top, I know. But something like this has happened to me.

Takes cover!

PLM

[asheng]

Tempsford, I think you have hit the nail right on the head.

Within engineering it matters not whether your in maintrol or out in all weathers on the line when the crew have a problem they want an honest and trustworthy answer that is correct and safe.

The relationship between the crew and the engineering staff is one of the most important issues when these occurances arise...................and they will.

At the company I work for we as engineers have taken a long while to build this trust and respect and it works dividends for us. We are a company that operates on very low turnround times and an awful lot of aircraft per day/night. If our relationship wasn't any good then the operation would soon grind to a halt. If the crew have a problem then sort it out and agree on the plan of action together, that way everyone knows the score and there is no comeback later. If you can fix it,fix it. If you defer it then do so and if its a stopper then thats it, but make everyone aware of the actions and reasons why.............................its called being responsible.

I have also worked for companies where this relationship is crap and there is immediate friction between the two parties, all that happens is the crew snag it to hell and you get given a pile of s**t to deal with when they get off and go home or down the pub.....................laughing! This just becomes hard work and miserable.

To bring in another outside influence to this arrangement will only build in a dilution of any good relationship and therefore have a detrimental effect on any operation. But then again at "Big Airways"who really cares..........................its jobs for the boys, I can say this because I've been there and passed through already.

The end result is we are employed as engineers albeit on the line or in maintrol and have a responsibility to safety and the well being of our aircraft. We are not employed as social workers willing to give out soothing advice to any lost soul who may find life a bit tough on his aeroplane that day and not there to help some poor manager to get over his bad hair day because his missus didn't make his toast that morning.

Be an engineer, work with these guys and if they need advice use your knowledge and experiance and give em an honest answer...................................................if you cant do that then go and waste someone elses time not the poor bloke that needs help!

[mymymy]

Excellent reply asheng,

it seems that only from a position of respect (in both directions) can a proper rapport be established thus allowing problems to be resolved accordingly.

3my