British pilot with FAA licence/license flying G reg outside UK airspace

[tunalic2]

British pilot with FAA licence/license flying G reg outside UK airspace

Just contacted the CAA by phone to be told I must contact each individual country I want to fly to!

So the ones that i could find an email for I have(NL Germany Ireland France) and will post their replies here.

Does anyone else have any more info with ref, I would greatly appreciate it.

I Know
What we need is a european agency or two to save all this different country thing, oh yes JAA EASA, we already have them! it easy to be cynical isn't it?

Also on another thread there is talk of needing a radio cert to operate N reg with an FAA ppl outside USA airspace , is this true? and how long has it been so?

T2

[Flyboy-F33]

Wasn't this good enough for you?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149075

I thought we had put this one to bed several times already...!

Fly...

[DFC]

Yes but it will be interesting to hear what the other aviation authorities think!

:ok:

Regards,

DFC

[UV]

Tunalic 2.

I was sure that this was the case but was told told firmly that I was wrong, in another thread. Be careful of some of the advice you read here.

I am still sure that the CAA is correct in saying that they cannot approve a pilot to fly a G Reg aircraft, without a UK licence, in another countrys airspace.

Was always thus when I was there in a previous life!

I strongly suggest that you get it in writing, direct from the CAA, and do what THEY advise!

UV

[tunalic2]

thanks for the replies

looked at the links and no can't say that they do answer the question,
maybe i missed the important bit but the files don't make for easy reading do they and all seem to relate to FAA PPL in UK airspace daytime vfr only, which wasn't my question

the CAA weren't really interested, "ask the relevent authorities" which seems strange to me as it must be a really common question, guess it doesn't earn them money.

I read in flight that 3000 PPL 's were issued to UK residents last year, I would guess that a lot would be CAA/JAA PPL'S on holiday but it is only my guess surely they couldn't be all new PPL's, could they?

No replies from other CAA's yet
T2

[bookworm]

The other CAAs will say, as they are bound to do under the Chicago Convention, that the UK CAA is the authority that determines who is and who is not permitted to fly a G-reg in their airspace on a private flight.

[2Donkeys]

Indeed bookworm. The legislation (in the shape of the ANO) is very clear on the subject. Random calls to the CAA tend to yeald rather variable results.

The only grey area in this matter is that whilst the ANO "renders valid" foreign licences for use in G-reg aircraft, the CAA does not issue individual certificates of validity as ICAO suggests that it should. This means that any foreign authority attempting to ascertain the position of a pilot "caught" flying a G-reg aircraft has no basis for proving their claim without reference to the ANO itself.

This doesn't change the underlying legal position, but can make for prolonged conversations with foreign functionaries.

2D

[BEagle]

Why don't you just get a JAA licence?

[MLS-12D]

What we need is a european agency or two to save all this different country thing, oh yes JAA EASA, we already have them! it easy to be cynical isn't it?I am probably putting my big feet in it, but ... what are you complaining about? Frankly, you should be happy that the CAA recognizes your FAA license (sorry, "certificate" ;)) for flights inside the UK, since it is perfectly entitled to reject that document:
Art.32(b) Each contracting State reserves the right to refuse to recognize, for the purposes of flight above its own territory, certificates of competency and licenses granted to any of its nationals by another contracting State. As BEagle asks, if you live in the EC, why not simply get a JAA license? :confused:

[tunalic2]

Just to restate the original question,

'British pilot with FAA licence/license flying G reg outside UK airspace' (what is allowed and what paper work is required?)



MLS - 'I am probably putting my big feet in it, but ... what are you complaining about? Frankly, you should be happy that the CAA recognizes your FAA license (sorry, "certificate" ) for flights inside the UK, since it is perfectly entitled to reject that document:

Big feet are welcome but I wasn't complaining I was asking a question please see above

Beagle - 'Why don't you just get a JAA licence?'

why should I if I can do what I want on my FAA license? ( it doesnt cost me £145 every 5 years for starters)

2D - 'Random calls to the CAA tend to yeald rather variable results.

It wasn't random it was a perfectly reasonable question to the relevent authority, perhaps ............you meant that random people answer the phone at the CAA?


Here is the reply from the French CAA(translated by babelfish.com so better than me but not perfect)

Dear Sir,
In response to your mall of October 26, 2004, j'ai l honnor to let you know that: 1 - Being of nationality British and wanting to fly planes in G in l'espace air French, you must contact the CAA and the FAA which will give you the procedure since you are holder d'une American licence.

2 - to fly planes out of F, with your American licence, you must obtain a French validation of your licence aupès of the services of l Aviation French Civile. For that, you will find hereafter the list of the elements necessary to this possible obtaining.

I remain at your disposal for any further information and requests d'agréer, Sir, l'assurance of my best greetings from you. Yvette THOMASSET DAC/N/D2FL ORLY CUS 108 94396 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX


I also as an aside had asked if i could now fly an F reg in French airspace on FAA PPl, which was not possible 7 or so years ago when last asked but would seem it is now.

What a delightfully polite reply! but catch 22 so off to search the FAA website again
T2

Blimey and I thought this would be easy

[DFC]

It seems to me that as far as the authorities are concerned, this is a legal nightmare and none of them are going to put their head above the parapet and say that a licence issued in one country is valid to fly an aircraft registered in a second country through the airspace of a third country.

Part of the problem I beleive is that since the CAA have this "automatic validation", there can and probably are some pilots with FAA licenses who do not meet the appropriate ICAO meducal requirements and thus such a licence could be considdered to be sub-ICAO just like the NPPL.........which other national authorities refuse to recognise.

Personally, I beleive that if the UK complied with the ICAO requirement and inspected each certificate and issued a validation then there would be less problems because the UK CAA would be meeting it's requirements under ICAO.........i.e. ensure that pilots flying G reg aircraft are licensed (and medically fit) to ICAO standards.

The best way to word a letter to the authorities is - "I am a FAA PPL certificate holder and intend to make several flights within your airspace in a G registered aircraft in the future. Do you have any objections?"

---

Bookworm,

It is always the authotiry of the country being overflown that decides who can fly thorugh their airspace and in what aircraft. What you are confusing is international agreements whereby countries agree to comply with ICAO standards and recomended practices or international agreements such as JAR.

If it was the CAA that decided who can fly G reg aircraft through what airspace then the Irish Aviation Authority would not have told many CAA licence holders flying G registered aircraft that they can not fly in Irish Airspace (even if they ask first the answer will be NO).

Regards,

DFC

[2Donkeys]

I don't think that the views being expressed by DFC and by Bookworm are necessarily at odds.

Before you can legally fly an aircraft, with a licence, in a country, there are a number of filters that you must pass through.

The country in which the aircraft is registered must agree that the flight crew licence you hold is good. If it is not one they issued, then in principle, they should issue a piece of paper confirming the fact that they "render it valid". In the UK, we don't, which has the potential to muddy the water, even though we have done the right thing and notified ICAO of our deviation from this practice.

The country in which you propose to fly must accept your aircraft/licence combination. They have the right to refuse, but will normally actively promulgate the fact that they will not accept certain combinations. None of the obvious European countries have gone on record as refusing FAA licences in CAA aircraft, deferring (as we have seen) to the CAA - which is quite right.

Once you have jumped those hurdles, the type of flight you propose to undertake must also be considered. What is acceptable as a private flight may become unacceptable as a charter operation, or as an instructional flight.

Then, the flight must comply both with the rules governing its state of registry whilst the crew adheres to its licence limitations, and the entire flight is conducted in accordance with the rules of the air of the country in which the flight is conducted.



This makes the entire process of judging the legality of any given flight subject to many different angles. For this reason, regulators are loathe to arbitrate in isolation, instead pointing you to the various sources that might constrain a flight - normally other CAAs.


However......


For a private flight, conducted in a G reg aircraft, but an FAA-certificated pilot, there is no prima facae problem. There are interesting discussions you can have about the rights of various European states to query the status of the flight - but ..... it isn't happening. Despite the enormous numbers of Brits flying around on FAA licences, there is not one case that I can recall of a Brit being slammed in jail by a European authority on grounds of licensing irregularities....


... or can somebody come up with an example?


2D

[bookworm]

If it was the CAA that decided who can fly G reg aircraft through what airspace then the Irish Aviation Authority would not have told many CAA licence holders flying G registered aircraft that they can not fly in Irish Airspace (even if they ask first the answer will be NO).

Then, if the intention is to fly privately, their licences are of ICAO standard and the pilots are not Irish nationals, the Irish Aviation Authority puts the Replublic of Ireland in breach of Art 5 of the Chicago Convention, to which it is a signatory.

In particular I don't get the "even if they ask first" part. Would you seriously expect me to request permission from every state that I wish to overfly on a private flight in a G-reg as to whether my UK-CAA licence is acceptable or not?

[dublinpilot]

I think d2 my be refering to the IAA not recognising NPPL's as they are not ICAO compliant............i think.....

[IO540]

DFC

Can you give an example of precisely which FAA medical doesn't comply with ICAO requirements?

[MLS-12D]

I am certainly no expert, but I believe (?) that the vision requirements applied by the FAA do not comply with the standards set out in Annex 1, Chapter 6. Specifically, the FAA doesn't have a minimum requirement for uncorrected visual acuity.

I could be wrong about the above (and hope that I am, as I have very poor uncorrected vision, and it would be nice to think that ICAO has become more flexible).

[dublinpilot]

There was a bit of a hu ha about that over here earlier in the year.

Someone pointed out to the IAA that the FAA class 3 medical didn't meat the ICAO requirements, and the IAA agreed. You need an ICAO licence and medical to fly a EI reg here. Hence a lot of FAA PPL's had to go off and get a Class 1 or class 2 FAA medical.

dp

ps. I can't remember why it didn't meet the ICAO requirements

[BlueLine]

"Just contacted the CAA by phone to be told I must contact each individual country I want to fly to!"

You have probably just spoken to a clerk who knows far less than you do about flying. Read the ANO which is quite clear and abide by it.

You can fly a G reg on a FAA licence in accordance with Art 21 (4) (a) There are no teritorial limits stated so you don't need to ask anyone.

[englishal]

Just write to each authority and get it in writing. I wrote to the DGAC and the German CAA and both responded in writing that if the CAA allows me to fly a G reg on an FAA license in the UK, then they would also allow it in their airspace.

[On the Spot]

July issue of Flyer has a good article and gives the relevant ANO and ICAO references to quote at any jobsworths you might meet along the way.

FAA $75 medical v CAA £160 medical - sure it isn't the same scope. But it doesn't mean you aren't safe to fly - or even that you are.

[IO540]

I have done an FAA Class 2 and a JAA Class 2 within weeks of each other, and the FAA one is more rigorous. The eyesight test is more strict for example and I have to wear glasses for the FAA one but not for the JAA one.

Basically, the FAA has more pilots flying that the rest of the GA world put together, and they know what (if anything) causes pilots to plummet.

The CAA, OTOH, have their job creation scheme to maintain and they want everything gold plated. I know this is a simplification but the CAA are not in the business of reducing regulation.

Suggestions that the FAA route is easier medically or ground school wise, or flying-wise, are a myth. It is just different concentrating on the bits that actually matter.

[tunalic2]

Thankyou for all your comments here's the Irish perspective hot off the press

Thank you very much for you email query dated 26th October 2004 which was forwarded to me from Mr Fergus O'Connor. As the holder of an FAA PPL you may exercise the priviledges of your licence for VFR (Visual Flight Rules) day only flying on both Irish and British registered aircraft (Private Flying Only). Please ensure that you are also the holder of a Class 2 ICAO standard Medical as the FAA issue Class 3 medical is not accepted in Ireland.

Should you have anyother query please do not hesitate to contact me on (01) 603 1407.

Regards

Niamh Stanford
Personnel Licencsing Office

[IO540]

AIUI, an ICAO member is able to require its RESIDENT pilots to meet its medical requirements.

Isn't this refusal by the Irish to accept the FAA Class 3 medical merely an exercise of this privilege?

They don't have to argue whether it meets ICAO or not.

The UK CAA could do the same.

What one cannot do is impose this on VISITING pilots.

I can't remember where I read this...

[tunalic2]

Thankyou 'on the spot'

the article in Flyer magazine July 2004 is very useful and answers my questions beautifully

Daytime VFR with FAA PPL in G Reg is allowed in other countries hoo ray!

even without a piece of paper from the CAA as they (along with Malaysia ) are unique in not issueing one,
brings a possible problem as local official might want to see one so refer them to ICAO annex 1, supplement section, in particular the list of countries that have excluded themselves from section 1.2.2.1

As regards to Irish airspace and them seemingly not recognising FAA class 3 medicals(see previous posts) not a problem for me as I have a JAA one.
If I didn't then I could just renew my FAA med early and keep it class 2 or above.

Got to go and plan my next ( all hours logable) trip to France

:ok: a very happy T2

[dublinpilot]

Tun,

Becareful about your comments regarding the IAA. It is my understanding, that the IAA are not accepting a FAA ppl with a JAR medical.

If you have a FAA ppl, and want to fly in Irish airspace, then you must have a FAA Class 1 or class 2 medical.

I wasn't affected the this whole issue, so wouldn't claim to be an expert on it, but that was my understanding of the issue.


IO

It is my understanding that the IAA's interperation of the law, means that no FAA PPL can fly in Irish airspace with a class 3 medical, not just resident. It comes from the IAA's understanding that a class 3 FAA medical is not ICAO compliant. ie. it is a national medical, not an ICAO medical.

Regards,
dp

[tunalic2]

Dublin Pilot
so you are suggesting that
FAA PPL with class 3 FAA med (not it would seem IAA recognised) and class2 JAA med would not be acceptable?
T2

sorrry DP

just reread your post and realise that\'s exactly what you had inferred and yes i am wrong to assume that they would accept the above combination, I shall email them and see

T2

Ok then

one very quick, efficient call later,
I can happily report according to a very pleasant lady called

Niamh Stanford (pronounced Niv I believe)
Personnel Licencsing Office. (01) 603 1407.

that FAA PPL with CLASS 2 JAA Med would be acceptable for VFR (Visual Flight Rules) day only flying on both Irish and British registered aircraft (Private Flying Only).

So I can follow the French lunch up with a real guinness!

T2

and from the Dutch CAA just arrived

Dear Mr Tunalic2(edited :E)

Hereby the answers on your questions;

Flying a British (G)reg plane in our airspace is to the responsiblity of the CAA who has registered the airplane. In this case the CAA of the UK.
You can fly a Dutch registered aircraft single pilot VFR in Dutch airspace with the privileges held in your ICAO FAA PPL if you have not your habitual or permanent residence in the Netherlands.

Kind regards,
Maureen Dreijer
Senior Licensing

T2

[dublinpilot]

Tun,

Happy to be corrected.

I had tried to look up for you, the AIC that the IAA had issued after the whole FAA class 3 medical thing blew up earlier in the year, however they seem to have taken the AIC's off their website at the moment.

dp

ps. Niamh is a very helpful girl ;)