Fast Jets, eg - provhost.

[WelshFlyer]

A friend of mine at the flying club was asking me about civilian fast jet training - I.E. Jet Provhost.

I seem to remember a few years ago, there was the "Fast Jet Flying Club" and was wondering if it's still going.

WF.

[reynoldsno1]

The Jet Provost - constant thrust, variable noise - calling it a "fast" jet is a real stretch of the imagination.....:eek:

[Final 3 Greens]

Yeah, they get bird strikes from behind ;)

[Kolibear]

They are the only jet I can think of which is noisier when approaching you than when going away from you, but at least you get a hot flush when its gone past :O

[BEagle]

The Mk3 was a thoroughly weedy little thing - constant thrust variable noise - particularly when flow with full tip tanks. Mk 5 was vastly better - a fair bit more oomph, much better canopy and cabin pressurisation.

We did 300 KIAS 250 ft low level navexes in the things which were a complete waste of time. It was almost impossible to regain time without exceeding max continuous thrust and it drank fuel. Plus it was much heavier on the controls and bounced around like a pea on a drum. But at 240 KIAS it was very pleasant indeed...

With decent lightweight avionics, an ex-Finningley Mk 5 with tip tanks and no concrete leading edges, moustache spoilers or other aerodynamic add-ons would be the one to go for if A to B cruising is your thing. But for performance, a Mk 4 would be best (samethrust as a Mk 5, but without the extra weight or pressurisation bleed) - except that they're probably all knackered by now. Although the aerobatic purists always said that the Mk 3 actually handled slightly better.

The -A models with VOR/DME aren't really worth it for civil use - you'd be better off with something like a Garmin 430 where the non-A models had the Eureka 7 control box.

[owenlars]

Someone once said to me that they were the most efficient way of turning paraffin into noise that man had ever devised.

[S-Works]

Come on don't be so cruel, when I was flying them in '88 at Cranwell they were an amazing step up from the Chippy! They may not have been the best jet trainer but they had a good service life and proved reliable.

Perhaps all the bitterness here is from those who wish they could fly/have flown a jet and it is just jelousy!!

[BEagle]

Yep - sturdy and reliable. Everone liked them really - but the Mk3 and 3A were pretty suggish.

But we had a proper military trainer in the Mk5 which would get up to 400 KIAS.......eventually!

[Final 3 Greens]

Someone once said to me that they were the most efficient way of turning paraffin into noise that man had ever devised.

You obviously never heard a Trident, 1-11 or Tu154 then ;)

[MLS-12D]

WelshFlyer, to answer the question you asked: yes, there are various clubs/syndicates/private companies out there offering training on the Jet Provost. See e.g. TurboJet Training (http://www.turbojettraining.co.uk/), Swords Aviation (http://www.swordsaviation.co.uk/training.htm), Where Eagles Share (http://www.swordsaviation.co.uk/training.htm) and Newcastle Jet Provost Co. (http://members.lycos.co.uk/newcastlejetprovost/). To qualify for training, it will be necessary for you to purchase a share in the aircraft (for approximately £4,000), plus you'll be responsible for monthly dues (approximately £250).

For training on the Hawker Hunter, see Delta Jets (http://www.deltajets.com/) (they also have a JP and a Gnat available, at lower cost).

I hope that this helps. If you are thinking of going for it, don't be deterred by all of the negative comments posted above. From the viewpoint of most would-be conversion pilots, the fact that the JP has less performance than, say, an F-104, is a good thing. Developing and increasing your piloting skills slowly and safely is much, much more important than impressing any of the anonymous people on this forum.

[WelshFlyer]

It's for a friend who's getting a bit frustrated since he left the air force. He's discovered that a piper cherokee is a bit slower than the things he flew in the USAF.

As for me - jets are two distant on the horizon - I have enough trouble with a cessna!

WF.

[MLS-12D]

There are plenty of ex-service pilots out there who would like to fly something with a bit more pep and pizzazz than a spam can. Surprisingly, many are quite shocked when they learn how much money it costs to purchase, maintain, hanger and operate even a small private airplane. If your friend does decide to join one of the jet syndicates, at least he will be able to share the costs with the other members.

[englishal]

What I thought was surprising, is that its often possible to get spares really cheap for these jets. An engine for £7000....hmmm....thats loads cheaper than a 152 engine.....

My mate flies a JP, and I'm still waiting for him to take me for a spin in it (hint hint)

When I win the lottery, alongside my G1000 Diesel Twin Star, I think I'll have an all singing, all dancing L39, painted black with red stars on the wings.....:D (about $300,000 should buy a nice one)

[MLS-12D]

englishal, perhaps you might offer to pay for the fuel ... that should get you a flight. ;) Of course, please remember to tell us your impressions afterwards.

Good luck with the lottery. Personally, I would not choose the two aeroplanes that you've mentioned ... but I wouldn't turn down a flight in either, so my aviation snobbery is impure! :D

[Monocock]

Could you operate a Provost from 1000m of grass??:hmm:

[reynoldsno1]

Perhaps all the bitterness here is from those who wish they could fly/have flown a jet
Bitter about the JP??? What ever gave you that idea? Comments given with affection - based on experience.....:=

[Tarnished]

For some real fast jet flying send your mate here:

http://www.thundercity.com/

no need to buy shares, membership or any such nonsense, just pitch up with a suitcase full of $$$

T

[MLS-12D]

I believe his friend was interested in piloting himself, not being a mere passenger (hardly "real flying", is it? No need for skill, judgment or any such nonsense).

[DubTrub]

Monocock wrote: Could you operate a Provost from 1000m of grass?

Well not reliably, have you been to Breighton? A very nice parallel tarmac taxyway has been there for many a year.

[Blue Helmet]

WF,

In defence of the JP. It is a little slow and not really a 'fast jet' but is a very good basic jet trainer that with proper training can be flown SAFELY by an average PPL.

The Mk5 can do the 300 kias low level so is a good jump up from a light single. As other comments say - go one step at a time. A good grounding on the JP will stand you in good order for other jets.

I know the guys at Swords Aviation (see www.swordsaviation.co.uk) and I'm sure they can get your friend up for a trial flight.

PS. In my opinion the best JP is the Mk4!

[WelshFlyer]

My mate was in the USAF flying F15s - a provhost should be no problem:-)

I wish I had te skill/confidence/money to take up a Jet, but I thinhk that's way on the horizon for me!

Thanks for all your help - I've passed it on.

WF.

[Confabulous]

Englishal,

When I win the lottery, alongside my G1000 Diesel Twin Star, I think I'll have an all singing, all dancing L39, painted black with red stars on the wings..... (about $300,000 should buy a nice one)

My sentiments exactly (I'll just go fix the lottery) - but isn't it strange that the TwinStar cost 60% more (inc VAT) than the L39C?

Anyone got any tax advice *cough* we can use? :E

I'm going to paint mine with flying pigs.

[Dan Winterland]

The Mk 4 was the fastest. It had the Viper 202 rated at 2450Lbs, same as the Mk5. However, he Mk5 had the pressurisation which took away some of the oomph, but you could get that back on the MK5 by switching it off. That would give you another 10knts at low level, up to 370 at max chat on a cold day. Great, except that you could see the fuel guages moving! However, the MK5 had the bigger canopy which added a bit of drag. Also, when it was discovered that the larger canopy made it more unstable in the spin, the roughened leading edges and nose strakes were added in an attempt to stabilise it. These added more drag and increased the low level fuel burn by 5lbs a minute.

Only flew the Mk3 once - on the CFS course. I remember lots of noise, no movement and a desire to take it back to the line and put it US due to lack of power as we were still trying to scrabble airborne after 6,000' of Scampton's 10,000' runway had pased us.

Not a bad aircraft, simple, stable, safe and easy to fly. But I will open a new debate by stating the Tucano is better - even if it is slower!

[ShyTorque]

As an ex-RAF pilot trained on the JP and a bit more experience on type in another later role .... I ask a simple question. What is the likely outcome of an engine failure on these aircraft, bearing in mind the threshold speed and inertia of the type?

Are the ejector seats live? If not, I presume parachutes are worn at all times. What is the recommended minimum abandonment height? I wouldn't want personally want to be putting one down in Farmer Giles's ploughed field because there was no other option.

[greeners]

One of our boys helped to make 2 Tucanos u/s forever, and reckoned that he had done the air force a huge favour....:D

[Genghis the Engineer]

Welshflyer, if your chum has flown F-15s, the odds of him finding anything comparable are extremely minimal, and certainly not in a Jet Provost. Clearly he will have a lot of flying ability, and I doubt he's lost the ability to learn.

If they have a lot of money, then a Hunter out of somewhere like Kemble would probably be a lot closer - it was, after-all, a fighter, and a joy in it's light and responsive handling (some might argue a poor fighter, but he's not going to war in it, just wants to enjoy himself). If he hasn't, he'd be far better off looking sideways at something like a Pitts or Yak, backwards at a fun historic aeroplane like a Steerman, replica spitfire, Harvard in which he can enjoy some proper hooliganism as well as the pleasure of learning to fly something new.

Hard to disagree that a cherokee is boring (comfortable and practical as well mind you - I love mine for touring, but rarely fly it for pure fun), but I'm unconvinced that an elderly (and, let's be honest, deeply ugly) jet trainer with about 45 minutes endurance is the right way for your friend to restore his love of flying.

Mind you, Neville Duke still flies a Cherokee.

G

[MLS-12D]

Good advice from Genghis.