Jodel D9 flying tips wanted

[Ludwig]

I have been volunteered to ferry a Jodel D9 from one grass strip to another on the basis that I have tail wheel time! I said “OK” as I thought it would be interesting. Now I discover what a Jodel D9 is; it’s a Rupert the Bear Cornflake packet type a/c with an ancient VW Beetle engine and a propeller about the size of Pixie’s toothpick. Employing the engineering adage, “if it don’t look right it aint” this, I think, is firmly in the “aint” category.

Does anyone have any experience of this type of “flying machine”, what are its good bad and danger points; will it fly, should I risk it, that type of thing. I have discovered from a PFA note that it seems to stall at 28 mph, so I guess landing into any kind of wind is out of the question.

So far virtually all my tail wheel time (circa 500 hours) has been on high-performance types.

Heeeelp!
:( :*

[robin]

You lucky s*d.

The main thing to watch for is carb icing with the VW engine. Use the carb heat long and often.

Landing is a doddle and it'll seem really slow, but if you need to throw away the landing, do it early and don't expect the power to come on quickly.

Although controls are light, and you'll almost certainly overcontrol on take-off and landing, the engine is a different matter. If you've only flown high-performance, it'll be like moving from a sports car to a milk float, so don't expect a rapid climb

Apart from that, it'll be fun. Enjoy it

[Monocock]

You lucky b*****d.

I love those D9's!!!!

[Sir George Cayley]

They loop just fine - about 120 mph entry
Rolls need a bit of care as the engine wants to stop and it's all a bit leisurely. Stall turns, lazy eights & cubans are a doddle
Don't spin it though.

The phrase milk float is right in one sense and thats float. You'll find it difficult to approach at less than 50 just because your brian won't let you - so you'll have proportionatly a lot of speed to get rid off.

A lovely honest a/c - enjoy

Sir George Cayley

[Zlin526]

I have discovered from a PFA note that it seems to stall at 28 mph, so I guess landing into any kind of wind is out of the question.

:confused: I'm not sure you meant to say what you did, but if you did mean what you typed, may I suggest you get somebody else to deliver it! I hate the sight of splintered wood and fabric.

[Skylark4]

I would suggest you swallow your pride and let someone who is qualified on type do the job. There must be plenty around. Alternatively, do a proper conversion to type first. If it were my aircraft, I would rather trust a 200 hour pilot who flies a D9 than a 10,000 hour Spitfire pilot for this particular job.

Mike W

[stiknruda]

Ludwig, you old maestro:

The old D9, huh!

EPLS (easy peasy lemon squeeezy)

Approach at 45, over the fence at 40 decreasing to 35 and gently feel her on to the ground.

Though I would advocate a quick power off, stall break check at a suitable heigt after the climb out (300'?). If it is all very sedate - excelent! You now have some numbers to work with.

If the bitch flicks malignantly, then time to test your piloting skills!

Yeah baby!

See you in the Ozarks


Stik

[Croqueteer]

As a matter of interest, what is the average disposable load of a D9

[18greens]

Ludwig,
The only thing that caught me out was the way it leapt off the ground at 30mph. It was a very easy plane to fly and I reckon if you can fly a cub then the d9 is a doddle. Enjoy it.

Skylark,

How would you suggest you do a type conversion onto a D9?

18

[Ludwig]

Thanks peeps.:ok:

Zlin so how do you land an a/c which stalls at 28mph into a 40 knot headwind then?

[Dan Dare]

I'll do it for you!!!!! Yes really.

I'm more 200 hour D9 pilot than Spitfire ace, but if you do decide to do it for yourself you'll find it one of the most enjoyable types you've ever flow. Crisp, sensitive controlls and very few vices.

Before you fly I should bear in mind the crash report for D9 G-AXOI (delivery of a new aircraft by new pilot/owner). The key factors were, as discussed above, carb icing and stall/spin in on trying to stretch the glide. So watch for carb icing and don't fly too slow and you'll be fine.

I'm a little surprised at the quoted 28 mph stall speed. I would expect something closer to 40 kt, but then I am a little large. A 1600 cc VW provides more than enough performance even at MAUW 320 kg, so I should fly it off erring on the side of speed (you'll still climb well) to a suitable hight, find what the real stall speed is and approach at 50% faster (yeah I know that 30% is usually used, but the kinky wing provides loads of drag when you chop the power and field length is almost never an issue).

I have to work now, but if you want comprehensive tips or to discuss any worries feel free to PM me.

[robin]

Ludwig

Pretty much agree with Dan's comments, but don't add on too much speed - keep it to 55 kts max on short finals, drop the speed to around 50 over the hedge any more and it'll just float - Again, don't rely on the engine pulling you out of trouble when you are low and slow. Anticipate an early go-round and try again.

If you fly into a 40kt headwind, you'll have the deep joy of watching the fuel level go down, as the tractors overtake you on the ground

If you are talking about 40kt on the ground - hmmm, are you sure you want to take a D9? They will land at anything up to 20kts with a really experienced pilot, but if the wind is at that speed - stay in bed.

[Zlin526]

Zlin so how do you land an a/c which stalls at 28mph into a 40 knot headwind then?

Oh dear.......

You leave it in the hangar and wait until it's not quite so windy....especially if it's your first flight on type! As somebody who has flown a D9, and many types like it, I wouldn't even get it out of the hangar in anything like a 28kt wind!

Call me old fashioned, but I'd be getting worried if it was my aeroplane that you were delivering!:{

[QNH 1013]

If you're not winding us all up, then I'm worried too. You have to think wind, wind, wind with these light low-powered taildraggers the whole time from when you get it out of the hangar until its safely back in a hangar, or at least tied down, especially the tail.
If you've not flown the type before please don't get it out of the hangar if the wind looks like going over ten knots, and if it has working brakes, don't use them when the aircraft is moving. As has been pointed out already, carb ice is much more common with the VW engines. You will need carb heat applied downwind, and left "hot" until you are on short final.

[Skylark4]

18G.
How do you convert to a single seat D9? Just the same as you would to any other single seater. You get training on a similar two seater, (I'm not that familiar with Jodels but there must be a small, underpowered two seater somewhere in the line,) then you have a very good briefing from a pilot experienced on type and finally you fly it, for several hours, exploring towards the edges of the envelope, from a big field in good conditions. You do not, ideally, have your first trip from a short field into another short field in someone elses aircraft, no matter how much of a hotshot pilot you are.

Mike W

[Rod1]

Ludwig,

Ok so did you fly it? Did you think it was good and would you do it again?

Rod1

[bingoboy]

If you really do find yourself flying with a 40kt groundspeed might I suggest that you keep plenty of power and speed on for the approach and I would maintain power until I actually landed . Also would stop and wait on the runway into wind until help arrived.

[Ludwig]

Rod1

Having listened to the sage words on pprune (no point in asking the question if you ignore the answers ), read the accident report, spoken to some experienced people including someone wise from the PFA, and most frightening of all, seen a picture, I decided discretion was indeed the better part of valour. I shall let someone else have the “joy”. I am a bit worried about the guy who has bought it now; he is yet to get his ppl (hence asking someone else to fetch it) and this will be his post ppl toy from a shortish grass strip! Brave chap.

Did fly a Harvard at the weekend – now that’s a proper aircraft, and I need one!
:{

[robin]

A pre-ppl buys a D9..................!!!!!! I look forward to the AAIB report.

[FlyingForFun]

Ludwig,

Has your friend spoken to any insurance companies about his purchase?

I can't say for sure, but I would expect that a requirement for insurance (assuming he's planning on getting some, of course) would be for a reasonable amount (50 hours, maybe?) of tailwheel time. If that's the case, and if he's not doing so already, it may be worth him completing his PPL on a tailwheel aircraft - there are plenty of places he can do this if he looks around. Even if it's not an insurance requirement, or he's planning on flying without insurance, I would guess that getting as much tailwheel experience as possible would be a benefit.

FFF
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PS - My old PPL instructor owned a share in a D9, and loved it. He used to race trucks along the M4 in it - he reckoned he could sometimes beat the trucks, too, if he had a good tailwind! Although I haven't had a go myself, I have no doubt he will love his aircraft as long as he is suitably qualified and experienced to fly it.

[Wide-Body]

Ludwig

Tell your mate to get his PPL and enjoy his D9. It really is a simple delightful aircraft to fly. Most insurance company's would be interested in total time. A good TD conversion would suffice in the no of hours in the tailwheel department, with a good school he could do it as part of his PPL.

FFF 50 hours tailwheel!!! Where did you get that one from. Please would people try and dispel the myth about tailwheel flying. With some decent instruction and a bit of common sense it is NOT difficult. It is a simple skill which can be easily taught in a few hours by GOOD instructors. We are not talking about Harvards and Spits.

Robin; what is wrong with a pre PPL buying a D9, as long as he is trained properly then NO problem.

Sorry dismounting high horse. We have enough trouble with the authorities et al putting obstacles in peoples way. Why oh why do we insist on putting imaginary obstacles in peoples way.

Ludwig Cant wait to get back in the Harvard in Nov myself, bit of a bus though. Now how about a YAK52 td?

Love to all

Wide

[robin]

Forgive me if I am making a generalisation, but most pilots are not trained in permit aircraft, but in 152s/PA28s and operate from licenced airfields.

To move straight into a D9 - light, under-powered, tailwheel etc and to fly it off a farm strip as well (who will be keeping an eye on him???) seems quite a leap.

If he is to undergo good tailwheel training, get farm strip experience with others etc etc, then there shouldn't be a problem as it is a forgiving beast

But to buy a plane, such as a D9, before completing a PPL - ie by definition, buying a plane he cannot know he is capable of flying - does not exactly sound sensible.

I just hope, for the Jodel's sake, he learns quickly, as there are a lot of nasty surprises waiting for him

[stiknruda]

Robin,

I also think that you are exagerating the downside. No one in their right mind jumps into an aeroplane that they are not capable of flying. I gues the Tyro- pilot has decided for one of many reasons that the D9 is for him and he will be mature and responsible enough to ensure that he is fully acquainted with flying similar variants before he launches himself into a pre-ordained problem.

FFF - think that you are miles out on insurance. My young chum, aged 17 and about to purchase a light, VW under-powered single seat taildragger was told, all you need is a TD endorsement and we'll take your £700 a year thanks.

It's a D9 not a firebreathing Sukhoi, my bloody dog could fly it - and the cornflake packet it came in! In fact, my dog gave me the speeds for the my first post on this topic!


Stik

[FlyingForFun]

Wide/Stik - I hope you are both right about the insurance! As I said, I don't know for sure, I've never looked into it in that much detail, so if I'm wrong then I apologise.

Wide, I agree that flying a taildragger is not a difficult skill, given the correct instruction. The only thing which concerns me is that it is a single-seater. When transitioning to any new type, a moderately experienced pilot will quickly draw on his previous experiences to adapt his technique to the new aircraft. An inexperienced pilot, however, is not so capable of doing that, and is generally reliant on having an instructor next to him, even if only for an hour or two, to keep him safe until he has developed the correct technique. This applies even for conversions on very similar aircraft.... my own conversion from PA28 to PA28R a few years ago resulted in a few nasty arrivals onto the runway because of my relative inexperience at the time, and new PPLs moving from C152 to C172 or vice versa encounter similar problems. When moving onto a single-seater aircraft, the option of having an instructor next to you is not available, so surely you must have enough experience to be able to work out something close to the correct technique by yourself, on your first flight? And since landing a taildragger is not the same as landing a typical tricycle training aircraft, having sufficient experience must surely include a reasonable amount of taildragger flying???

FFF
------------

[Wide-Body]

FFF

FFF In my experience, it is the natural ability of the pilot that causes the difference. A good pilot with correct training will find little difficulty in transitioning to any type of aircraft after a couple of hours. I would not like to comment on the difficulty you had from PA28 to PA28R. Most people only find the work transitioning to wobbly prop and gear, the landing is essentially the same whatever slight speed differences.

The majority of pilots I have seen have had no trouble flying Jodels, Cubs, Chipmunks etc. Landing a tail wheel is not difficult. My other half had less than a dozen hours tailwheel before flying her unique single seat pre war trainer. She has had no problems in flying a rather twitchy beast. This is due to good training and admittedly a high standard of personal discipline. Insurance by the way is sub £500.

Robin, whilst low experience is undoubtedly a major factor in aircraft accidents, you will probably find there are more caused by stupidity regardless of hours flown. I also hope you are more concerned for the pilots welfare of the D9 than the airframes.

Stick, what wise words as always. (Will pop up to Norfolk with FNG sometime)

All the best and a plea not to continue this myth that taildraggers are difficult. They just require good trainers and a healthy dollop of common sense

Wide

[NinjaBill]

Taildraggers arent hard that hard to fly. Before Tricycle aircraft came about, people used to solo in the same amount of time, but in tail draggers, had the average skill of the person learning to fly deteriorated in 40 years? Every year, the Air Cadet Organisation sends Hundreds of 16-20yr olds solo, in tail wheel aircraft, generally with about 8 - 10 hours total time.

The secret? The same as with every aircraft, just slightly more critical with a tail dragger. Fly the right speeds. Fly the wrong speed, and you will generally make a mess of it, as with most aircraft.

Perhaps flying between 2 strips on the first flight isnt the best of plans, but with a good brief from an experienced tail wheel instructor, a few circuits to get the feel of the aircraft, then off you go. The aircraft isnt clever enough to know its landing at a different airfield to where it took off.

If it was hard, then I couldnt do it.....

[robin]

Wide-body

The pilot is going to make his own mind up. If he screws up on landing or take-off, he is likely only to hurt himself, but it would lead to the loss of a nice aeroplane

When I was a snotty-nosed novice (last week, I think), we were told one of the worst sins was over-confidence in our ability.

I can't know how good a pilot the new owner is likely to be - he could be brilliant, and yes, the D9 is an easy plane to get to know. I'd like to know what he has been trained on and the sort of environment he was trained at - is it somewhere like WW or Enstone, or one of the bigger fields.

I wonder what sort of loading the insurance company would make, if the new owner has no tailwheel time at present.

But flying out of strips when you are a newly qualified pilot, just seems to me to be running before you can walk. I just have this image of someone who hasn't even waited to get the licence before buying an aircraft, and one where there is no chance of sitting beside another pilot - just in case.

Lots of people have converted successfully to types like this, but I'd have thought it easier and safer to go for, say a 112 or 120, than the D9.

[Oscar Duece]

Wide-Body

It's pilots who think a 'wobbly prop and gear' are no real difference that fill AAIB reports. The gear esp.

When I changed from the Pa28 barge to the Arrow you really notice the change of pace / increased work load.
Plus the flying or more landing characteristics are vastly different. Mainly due to the higher approach speed and extra weight the moving gear causes. You really need to fly a Pa28R on the the tarmac, as apposed to a Pa28 Warrior where you aim, glide then just chop the power and its all over.:ok:

[stiknruda]

Robin - as there is no legal requirement for insurance, the insurance company can not effectivelty stipulate any minimums as they are very likely to lose business. You can phone around all the brokers in the back of Pilot magazine and you will find that there are only very few underwriters that will write aviation business. Effectively it is the brokers not the insurers who attempt to stipulate a set of requirements and as the market is very small and they all know each other, they can very effectively be played against each other.

What they may do is increase the excess for the first n hours.

Were this a Pitts or a YAK50 or a C195 then I would be a little more concerned for Tyro and the aircraft but because it's a low powered taildragger that really will only fly when the conditions are perfect, I don't feel the need to worry. If he breaks it, it will be repairable - if he hurts himself it will probably be minor.

A few circuits as previously stated then off he should go.

Stik

[robin]

I hear what you are saying, and stand corrected.

My point is still the same. The D9 is a good early steed, and I am sure that the new owner will have lots of fun with it.

My later points are more general and concern conversion to a new type - any new type.

[Croqueteer]

I would still like to know from any of you familiar with the D9 what the average empty and MTOW is, as I have thought about selling my 117 and getting a D9.:D

[Captain Airclues]

Croqueteer

Empty weight approx 198kgs (individual aircraft might vary slightly)
MTOW 320kgs
Fuel capacity 36 litres

A delightful aircraft to fly. Should be no problem for a low-hour PPL so long as he/she has some good tailwheel instruction.

Airclues

[Wide-Body]

Oscar

Sorry, I thought I had put in my post that, the work in converting PA28-PA28R WAS in the prop and gear, if that was not clear I appologise. I totally agree that is where the workload goes up and capacity buckets overflow. The landing, abeit slightly quicker is less likely to cause so many problems as the systems.

All the best

Wide

[Croqueteer]

Thanks, Airclues. Your handle reminds me of one of the best stories in "Airclues" (The RAF safety mag), of a Canberra just airborne with an emergency that was inevitabley going to end with a crash, but in the meantime with plenty of fuel to hold. The skipper called ATC with a message to the station CO to convene his court martial, tell him what he should have done, and he would do it.:ok:

[stick&rudder]

To expand/ hijack the thread slightly, can any d9 pilots offer a pilot's perspective/briefing on flying said aircraft? I'm buying a share in one and so i guess i'm going to have to fly it at some point...
thanks!

[Dan Dare]

I've sent many people on their first fligth in the Bebe. Its never been a problem (but I can still remember my apprehension for the first flight).

My breifing very simple. Let it fly off the (very long) runway, climb, cruise and approach at 60 kt. What could be easier?

I think that everybody takes to flying it, the trickier point is taxying (with no brakes or stearing on ours), but you soon get used to that, just don't fly when the wind is too strong. I find more than 10 kt gets tricky and 15 kt total wind would be my limit.

S&R - I'm sure you'll love it!