SERCO to meet the Unions

[Fanny Adams]

Apparantly the Unions are meeting SERCO tomorrow morning (wednesday) at SERCOs request. I gather SERCO would like to speak to IPMS to find out why they have publically backed the airline bid if PPP does go ahead.

Its quite obvious to me why the Unions are publically backing the Airline bid but apparantly not to SERCO. I just hope the unions tell SERCO in no uncertain terms what they can do with their bid and where they can stick it.

If anyone gets any wind of this meeting, I hope you will share it with us all.

[slurp]

fanny...if its true that SERCO are to meet the unions ,does that mean PCS are involved...i doubt it ....seems like the divide and rule tactic being used ....most probably going to offer IPMS/BALPA some concrete details on safety not affecting their grades...bye bye ATSA'S

[Kings Arms]

or just say the unions were bloody minded etc. Spin Spin etc

[SercoController]

I have worked for Serco for four years now. It is the best company around. It is also the largest purely private provider of ATC services in the world. Did you know we pushed 4.6 million SAFE aircraft operations here in the states last year alone? How many did the airlines move? None. They know nothing about safety in ATC. You would be lucky to work for Serco.

[slurp]

sercocontroller ...name the units run by SERCO in the US ...maybe we can see how many SERCO run units actually handled.Its a bit like Lydd claiming to handle 1.8 million SAFE aircraft.Think i would rather pass on the privilege of working for SERCO

[SercoController]

Oh I am sorry I was a bit unclear. In the US 300 Serco controllers moved 4.6 million safe operations last year. I can't provide you with all the facilities we run but if you contact the FAA it is public knowledge and they will tell you it is around 56 on this contract. I know it isn't as interesting as the unfounded claims that Serco would not adhere to safety, but on the other hand it is true.

[WebCreator]

Folks please remember that this is one of the guys in the US that has very obviously been SERCO'd to the stage where he's happy to come and post all over this newsgroup but at the first sign of foreign interest in his US newsgroup and SERCO, he shuts his newsgroup down and re-forms it in secret banning all who aren't from the inner sanctum - probably a SERCO shareholder!

[WebCreator]

...and another thing...the last time I was on the sercoatcers website (I'm now banned by the way), there was a lady ATC person (position and grade unknown) complaining that she actually earnt LESS than her bin man! She really is compensated well for the responsibility she takes!

[SercoController]

You are too misinformed to even try to educate. It is not your fault. But I look forward to working with you in our company.

[WebCreator]

Great attitude - condescending, pompous and insulting - your posting speaks volumes and represents your company well!

[Der SimMeister]

SC.......
"working with you in our company"???

We should be so lucky. if Serco get the contract, many of us who provide valuable support to the ATCO's both operationally and non-operationally will be forced to seek new employment, or being forced to take swingeing pay cuts. The already under-pressure ATCO's will have to perform the support tasks themselves, which they need like a hole in the head.
We know what Serco are like when it comes to changing pay and conditions - here's an example:

http://www.lhmu.org.au/union/161.html

Of course the Serco share price has increased fourfold over the last four years, due to fierce costcutting (staff) and low wages. You cannot combine hard profiteering with safety. The two are incompatible. Serco will cut corners to make a profit. We have seen it before.
I know a number of people who have worked for Serco in the UK, and none of them.. and i mean none.. has had a single good word to say about them.
For example:
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum6/HTML/000706.html

You are not on the board of NIMBUS by any chance are you??

[slurp]

think SERCO pays bonuses to staff who say good things about them......i wonder how the FAA employed ATCO's ever got along without SERCO?

[Mr Chips]

So Mr SercoController. You work for this wonderful company, and yet can't name a single unit that they operate. That is rather suspicious. I can name EVERY NATS unit.

SERCO know lots about ATC do they, more than the airlines? And they are experts in every other field that they are in? I doubt it.

Are you really a controller? I doubt it.

[SercoController]

Web,

I was not insulting you. You do not work for our company. You are misinformed. And I do not have time to educate you about Serco. It is a great company.

Der,

We have 500 contracts and over 28,000 emoloyees and I keep seeing the same ONE story about Austrailia. I admit I am not familiar with that contract. I am familiar with the safety programs, pay, and benefits as they relate to my ATC contract. I have been on both sides of the fence. I am a 20 year retiree of the FAA. Serco is a great company that cares for it's employees and puts safety ahead of the bottom line. I hope they privatize the FAA soon and Serco gets the contract. But we are all entitled to our own opinions.

[Data Dad]

having dug around a few websites (not helped by FAA's one appearing to be offline at the moment) I find that Serco bought Barton ATC who are operating as part of the FAA Contract Tower Initiative. Towers in this programme are all "Level 1 VFR Facilities"

In the UK these would probably be staffed with FISO's - hardly comparable to Heathrow/Gatwick/Manchester + the rest.

[WebCreator]

Last I heard from the USA was that there are recommendations that the FAA should be run by a not-for-profit organisation - that CERTAINLY won't interest SERCO!

[SercoController]

Mr Chips,

Yes Serco does know much about ATC the Airlines do not. Yes Serco knows the work it does. Is there a point you were trying to make.

I am not going to type 56 facilities.

I don't really care if you think I am a controller.

[CIDINLINK]

Poor SC. Does he sound like a brainwash candidate or what?
Having been privatised once and by default having to work for the illustrious IAL/SERCO in the UK and having talked to some of those who still do, I can't really see why anyone would sing their praises.
The SATCO at the ATC unit I worked at was a longterm Company man. He became so impressed with SERCO that he left to join NATS where he is now a happy chappy. BUT ~ he has his resignation letter ready should SERCO succeed. Does that tell you anything?

[Der SimMeister]

slurp,

that link doesn't appear to work?

[slurp]

thats weird ...i put it into my faves copied it on to the site and it doesn t work...sorry..i ll try and sort it

[This message has been edited by slurp (edited 28 February 2001).]

[niteflite01]

I think at this point we should all, once again, note the polite warning in red letters at the bottom of the page - don't 'ya think mr sercocontroller? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

------------------
"Go around..I say again...go around"

[WebCreator]

From an unidentified source:-

Today there was a mass resignation at Bailbrook College
6 instructors resigned today from Serco's training establishment
Bailbrook college in Bath
the instructor consisted of 4 UK and 2 ICAO instructors
of the uk instructors 2 of them are the only verifiers of UK aerodrome
Courses of which one is due to start in 2 weeks time.
There were also 4 blip drivers that also resigned these 4 would be the most
experianced
it is belived that they are all going to the new college opening up in
cwmbran sth wales

serco also has major stafing problems at Scatsta with the last satco being
removed from his position for a missident on radar and a subsequent airprox.
it is also belived that there are staffing problems at Oxford.

it should be noted that theonly major airport contract that serco (in the Uk
) has held was Liverpool this was always understafed and as such they lost
the contract.

[Der SimMeister]

SC,

The Australian example isn't the only one.. here are a few more...

http://jinx.sistm.unsw.edu.au/~greenlft/1996/255/255p6.htm
(see last but one paragraph)

http://www.edwarddavey.co.uk/news78.htm

http://www.nlfl.nf.ca/psacgoose.htm

http://www.psac.com/COMM/NEWS/1999/63-0699-e.htm


last two relate to the same story.

If this is the way that Serco treats their employees and customers, is it any wonder we don't want them as our Strategic Partners?

[form49]

A brief searchof the FAA website revealed Serco has the contracts to run:

Hawaii, Guam, Sai Pan,
There will be more just didn't have the time to trawl through the database, it doesn't look like they run any of the major places, so I can't see where SC gets his many millions of movements figures!!!

Sounds like typical a typical Septic full of his own self importance

Edited for spelling!!
------------------
Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established

[This message has been edited by form49 (edited 28 February 2001).]

[slurp]

der.sim...good links...pretty frightening really

[WebCreator]

See if this works this time...

http://www.unde-uedn.com/english/asd/news-globe-7-8-00.html

[Spoonbill]

Bit of a side issue to the original post, but with reference to Webcreators post regarding the wholesale desertion of SERCOs college, (where - ever it may be now), I understand that one of the former senior instructors, (Andy Cook?) is in the process of setting up his own ATC College, and has applied for CAA approvals to start this summer. Good luck to them.
Could the two be linked??????? ;)

Note that Serco Controller is a retired FAA ATCO, probably quite happy to earn a minimal wage leading up to retirement. What he seems to be ignorant of, is the fact that SERCO love people like him because they can fulfill contracts, and pay the younger staff who have major commitments, sod all.
Just as well you don't work in the UK S/c, we younger brown noses wouldn't get a look in! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

[Mahaba]

There seems to be a lot of worry from atc workers about Serco. I believe deservedly so. There seems to be a lot of reassurance being given to those workers by either non or retired atc workers,( the FAA worker, ret'd). I may be not as well informed as I should be but doesn't a lot of this worry stem from the uncertainty about the future for the current atc worker, his terms, provision of safety, etc? I believe it is therefore inappropriate for people who are either outside of the industry or retired from it to try to placate the genuine anger felt or to suppress the worry felt by current atc workers. If Serco are successful in their bid for Nats, I am sure that we all in for a devastating change to our working and subsequent home/family life. There seems to exist a 'grey area' where people speculate about the change and rumours fly uncontrolled. The truth I suspect is that we are all in the dark a wee bit about how these coming changes will affect us all and it is this which creates a lot of the worries.We all seem to have the feeling that wheels are moving within wheels which we know nothing about. The days of feeling untouchable are well and truly over. We are up for grabs.wether we like it or not.This fact coupled with the debacle which has been NERC, the staff re-locations, sometimes onto and then back from new locations in the hope of Nerc coming online does not instill faith in our managers at present. Is it any wonder that we treat any new management organisation with suspicion.We are understaffed, I believe underpaid, occassionally overworked due staffing, re-located needlessly, expected to take on more movements with often substandard equipment or malfunctioning equipment, ie RWY2 at EGCC, and then kept in the dark about our futures.
So to all of the placaters, Ex FAA controllers who are trying to assure us the SERCO are marvellous, hidden SERCO players in this game, etc.Please listen
We are responsible, intelligent individuals who value what we do and the lifestyle that it provides for us. We are not lazy, greedy,scaremongeres who are afraid of change.
We would just like to know what that change may be, how it will actually effect us and those around us, and how we can ensure that although change is surely coming; that is it the best, safest and most agreeable to all the workers who will be most directly effected by it.

[slurp]

well the PCS ballot result was pretty unanimous...only 3 against.....IPMS result yet?

[WebCreator]

I heard (and wouldn't put it any stronger than that) that the IPMS ballot results were very very similar to PCS...something about a few spoiled papers, otherwise full on in support.

[Fanny Adams]

I gather that yesterdays meeting between SERCO and the unions was in stark contrast to the first one in the new year. They (SERCO) were apparantly quite alarmed of the public backing of the Airline bid by the unions that they did some backtracking to allay union fears for the future. I know little more than that.

In my opinion, SERCO showed their true colours first time round and as we have all seen here for the last two months, very little that anyone has said gives any NATS employees any confidence for their own futures if SERCO get their hands on us. Its a bit late SERCO coming to the unions to move the goalposts just because they see the writing on the wall for their bid. I just hope none of us are fooled with any fancy talk from them now, because it certainly won't last for very long in the future.

[slurp]

something of a coincidence that a few pro serco people have started putting their bit in now...wonder if it is just a coincidence

[BEXIL160]

Had a brief chat last night with a friend who is an FAA controller at a large facility in SW USA. He says that SERCo are bidding for just about every non FAA tower going and he has heard "Nothing good about them".

The guy is a NATCA safety rep so his words carry some weight.

[west country fatbloke]

Having just read all of the above i wanted to contribute my own views on SERCO (otherwise known as Sack Everyone Re-employ Cheaper Or-else).However not being particularly gifted with the urge to type for hours i thought i would try to distill my views into one word.....ARSE! (my apologies to the easily offended and SERCO lackys)

[terrain safe]

Fatbloke

Quite possibly the most reasoned, succinct and more probably accurate posting that this forum could recieve.

Perhaps our American bretheren could heed your views.

Good one :)

[fart]

I just happen to be a Serco controller on their biggest contract in the Middle East. Let me start by saying that the movement figure quoted by my US serco colleague is quite correct as it is published in our company mag and is also public knowledge. However, this is where I have to stop praising Serco. Fact is, at least here in the Midlle East, Serco management is a bunch of clowns and the only reason they do so well outside the Uk is that they employ well qualified controllers from around the world (US, UK, South africa, Aus, NZ, Sweden , Denmark etc.) and these are the guys that keep the money comming in. In order for them to bid for the Nats contract in the Uk, all of us earning the beans were salary capped - about the equivalent of 32 000 UK Sterling.

Serco does not like to employ "families", they prefer bachelors or single ladies. That way they can save more money by paying less on medical, accomodation and various other benefits. If you are loyal to them and begin to earn a reasonable pay, they "(1) cap your pay (2) fire you (3) or make it unbearable for you so that you leave out of your own free will (4) give you early retirement. This is just what they want - they can get somebody cheaper to fill the seat as they are paid per controller. It makes more sense to employ somebody for a max period of 5 years than say 25 years - salary is getting to much, pension payouts to much, gratuity to much etc etc. I see this everyday of my life , so be warned! They have cut cost around every corner to bid for NATS and we feel it downstream in many many ways! They have just send our manager on early retirement because he had a different management style than those who "think they know it all". Serco are there own watchdogs, so nothing can go wrong for them. I can go on and on, but fact is, if you are desperate enough as I am, only then will you put up with Serco "management" or total lack thereof!

Cheers

[Karamba]

So why does anyone work for them?

[Late Landing]

Good on you 'fart', at last someone at the sharp end who is prepared to use this forum to tell it like it is. Like you said the management 'make it unbearable for you so that you leave out of your own free will', that's why I left; total lack of commitment to the profession, both in safety and standards - just after the money and keeping the client happy (never advise against their decisions, no matter how unsafe, or you may lose the contract). As you so rightly say, they were able to employ someone at a far cheaper cost than myself, so there was no request to reconsider my descision to leave. The now 'retired' manager was the only one in management who was prepared to stand up for us as workers, in the company's relentless persuit of greater profits. DXB will be a poorer place without him. Keep faith, nothing stays the same for long!

------------------
My views are personal and DEFINITELY don't reflect those of my employer!

[slurp]

karimba ...you don't seem to understand ATC ...there are only a certain amount of places ATC people can work...and there are only a certain amount of people to be in the right place with the right validations.SERCO have come in to the airport/aerodrome end of the market and have gained many contracts in the US,many of the airports do not control major airlines etc .The guys who work in the Middle East do work major airlines etc,and work for SERCO are now opening up...its great to see ...we in the UK have a good idea what life would be like and now you are seeing the real life experiences and these guys deserve a pat on the back for probably putting themselves in the firing line.

[slurp]

i see the SERCO guys are back on the pro-line again

[Warped Factor]

I've been chatting with friends across the pond who are NATCA safety reps. It has been very interesting re SERCO contract towers and their safety statistics, especially the following quote....

"As far as the statement about ZERO operational errors, I think that you have
to read in reported operational errors. One of the controllers on the "stop
contracting" work group worked for a time at a contract tower. He
attributes this "excellence" to lack of reports of incidents being filed.
The reason is simply that any controller in a contract tower who reports one
is subject to dismissal. While we do not believe the operational error
statistics we do not blame the controllers because they have no choice. It
is indeed regrettable however that someone is throwing out these statistics
as though they were true."

SERCO also appear to have lost some contract towers in the USA, though for what reasons I'm not sure. They used to have a bunch on the West Coast, but apparently now only have smaller Alaskan and Hawaiian towers.

NATCA are actively trying to stop the contracting out, whether it be to SERCO or anyone else, of their ATC services.

WF.


[This message has been edited by Warped Factor (edited 16 March 2001).]