No pay for December?

[Expeditedescent]

Latest rumours at LATCC are that us NATS ATCO's are going to be having a very lean Christmas......
It seems likely that we will not get the December pay before Christmas as we have before and possibly not at all in December.
Seems like the bean counters have found that NATS won't have the capital to pay us until it recieves fees from eurocontrol, which are paid on the 27th of the month.
Therefore we will not be paid before Dec 27th, and unless the money is paid to us that day we may not get it until after the new year holiday.
Now, if we do not get paid during December are NATS in breach of contract?
How will this affect those of us with Mortgages, loans other borrowing etc?
If we are not paid before close of play on New Years eve, would you be preapred to come to work on New Years day?

Also have it on very good authority that the Finance Director at a high level management meeting was seeking to withold pay for this month....Until he was forcibly told that if NATS was in touble now, just see what shape it would be in if they didn't pay the ATCO's.

Looks like bread and water for Chrismans dinner then?

[Heading 365]

If NATS hold back paying, I wonder what the affect will be on TAG if we stop work or work to rule? Could force their hand.

Being that the airlines keep saying they are in trouble already I can see some going to the wall in a day or two especially if they can't afford the insurance hikes they are expecting.

I suppose NATS will suspend us and the goverment will bring in the boys in blue!

[160to4DME]

If only half the sentiments expressed on PPRUNE were reflected by appropriate action (nice NATS buzz phrase, eh !)out in the real world, we might not find ourselves in such deep cack.
I hate to say it, but we've brought so much on ourselves by being appathetic and ineffective over the last few years.
It seems that whilst ATCOs will defend their profession to the end, they just don't have the stomach to fight for the conditions and rights which they deserve.
Until that changes, any management will think they can walk over us and get away with it. :(

[5milesbaby]

I have regularly seen posted that we should 'work to rule', my question is, 'don't we anyway, and a little the other way???'. Working to rule sounds like doing 1 1/2 hours on, and 1/2 hour off??? I'll stick to my 45 min turnabouts thanks, or have I got it terribly wrong??????? :confused: :confused:

[Co ordination unaffected]

I've got the oil drum ready, who's bringing the firewood?
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

you may have guessed, I'm less than happy.

[JuicyLucy]

If we are paid on the "normal" day of the month for December I for one will not be too unhappy - the nearly 6 weeks wait until the Jan pay packet is always a strain!

However if the pay is not in the bank at the end of each month, and I now check that its cleared - something I would never even thought of in 27 years until a few months ago - then I just hope that UK ATC stops the very next day.....

[AyrTC]

5 Miles
Yes I think you may have it slightly wrong.If we have to work to rule yes we do need to work 1 1/2 hours on and then take a 1/2 hour break.I think you will find that the majority of NATS units do that any way (We certainly do not have the luxury if 45 mins on 45 mins off up here. :eek: )It would also mean giving up eg's working full night shifts and manning sectors correctly even if there was no traffic on them no bandboxingbut still insist the sector was double manned then when a break is needed
management will have to close sectors to provide relief.Please look at the long term,working to rule can be a double edged sword but it is about time operational staff picked up some kind of weapon for their defence. :mad:

AyrTC

[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: AyrTC ]

[5milesbaby]

AyrTC, thanks for that, only looked at the surrounds, not the overall picture ;) As for full nights and eg's, sounds like we do that at Latcc on many sectors already at the moment, although we do get the odd 'perk', but no where near as often as a couple of years ago. However I still can't see the advantage of it, we already close sectors or flow for bandboxed positions because of short staffing, just seems like we work even harder but shift no more traffic. :confused:

[Edited for drunken English]

[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: 5milesbaby ]

[Justin A Beaver]

Is this fact then?

We will not be paid until close to the new year?

Obviously this can happen, but over the years that I have worked for nats, custom and practice was always to pay pre-Xmas.

Is there a memo out from management or the unions (Hohoho)stating this?

[ZIP250]

I reckon that the "correct" day for December salaries to be in accounts is 27th. ie leaving 28th and 31st as the two clear days. As the company appears to be almost bankrupt, then I for one will not be working in January if I am not paid for December. Remember we are paid in arrears. This is not strike action. If NATS breaks the contract by not paying its debts then it is hardly strike action not to go to work.

I would also suggest that if salaries are not paid then NI contributions would not have been paid which begs the question "Are you insured at work?"

Z

[Nogbad the Bad]

The NATS Employees' Handbook states quite clearly that salaries will be paid into the staff's bank account by the third last working day of the month.

That date is the 27th December 2001.

If it is any later than that, then NATS are in breach of contract. I, for one, will not be working on 1 January 2002 if the salary is not in my bank account on the due date.

Moreover, if the money is not paid on time, then I suggest that people who are due to work on or after the 28th December 2001 seriously question whether or not they should work, being as we are, after all, paid in arrears.

I also believe that one of TAG's edicts was to "quash rumours" - so come on NATS - tell us the truth - for once ????

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Goldfish Watcher]

what a load of pish and speculation!

Where DO these stupid rumours start?

Of course we will be paid. This isn't the USSR you know. And we all know that those threats not to turn up to work are empty whinges anyway. It's all been said before, and with no action.

ITHINK - poor TC. aaaawwwww! try working for 45mins side on to a radar screen and sharing a strip bay! AC should get longer and more breaks than TC on account that we don't have any cushy ergonomic workstations and easy on the eye colour displays.

Of course I don't really believe this, I'm just ranting at such an idiotic post. ;)

[NextLeftAndCallGround]

Delighted to see some plain and simple sense spoken by Goldfish Watcher. I hate to think what anyone outside the business seeing this thread will think! You may be *issed off at the way NATS management continue to act - perhaps with good reason - but, for heaven's sake, don't spout this sort of garbage!

And as for AyrTC's
It would also mean giving up eg's working full night shifts and manning sectors correctly even if there was no traffic on them
What are egs? What do you mean working full night shifts - what's the alternative? And manning sectors correctly - what else do you do?

No wonder you're frightened of the real world!

[OrsonCart]

Nice one NextLeft.

From my understanding, if a company fails to pay its staff, it must be insolvent?

[5milesbaby]

IThink, Im not going to get into a slanging AC/TC match (hopefully), but yes, I have been into TC MANY times. During my training I visited about 5 times, and before that did my OJT there. Since then I have been through about 3 times to ASK what happens to **** so that I know in future, after some phone call full of blue rage. I have never had an arguement with TC over poor presentation on either their or my behalf. When was the last time you sat in AC???? Only today I heard an AC watch training manager quote 'I cannot remember the last time a TC student sat in here'. My post was slightly tongue-in-cheek too, as 45 min turnabouts aren't the norm, but they happen. We have to man for the usual 'rushes' when we split all ways, then it becomes 1 1/2 on, 1/2 off. Its just nice outside these when we can relax a little more before the next wave.
Back to working to rule, I'll generalise by saying isn't it working to CRATCO (or whatever it is) which frankly we do anyway? I'm sorry for my thickness on this, but can someone actually explain how it screws up the rosta's/working practices, without just totally screwing ourselves in the process.

---Learn by mistakes, just hope they aren't big ;) ---

[OrsonCart]

5Miles, what are you on?

The topic is pay, or maybe a lack of.

If the problems associated with PPP and Sept 11th have had such a massive down turn in revenue, both you and I should be worried.

Would the fact that PPP was so delayed result in a planned shortfall of cash whilst TAG re-negotiated a financial package post award by HMG? Add into this the very much un-planned downturn in revenue from en-route charges post Sept 11th, it all equates to some pretty rapid dynamic thinking and maths from TAG in order for our company to survive in the short term?

May I suggest that talk of walk outs, strikes, work to rule, be off set against massive unforseen circumstances inflicted on our new mangement?

TAG could decide to cull operational staff due to a downturn in flying. They have not done so yet. Let us be thankful!

No I am not management, just a realist! Too many folk within the airline industry are out of work now.

[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: OrsonCart ]

[WonkyVectors]

Rant on, Go

Heard from manager today, via colleagues, that lack of payment in Dec "may be a bit more than a rumour" (management speak for "I'm just a much in the dark as you are" or "You'll be paid when you get paid, now get back to work!")

Any union reps/bec members out there like to clarify to the rest of us where we stand if we are not paid on the contractual date? Are, even as we speak, union persons banging on the door of senior management and asking for a definative answer? Will said union inform said management that they have two months to sort this out, and if it is not sorted then the members will not turn up for work untill salary has been recieved in all members bank accounts?Have the union contacted the other major shareholder, ie HM Gov and advised them of the situation and also the press as regards the possible lack of flights after the 27 Dec?

The answer to these, and far more, questions is awaited with bated - but, frankly, going on past performance - unhopeful breath.

Rant off, Go

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[OrsonCart]

Looks like a worst nighmare!

How can folk work when they are clearly not going to be paid according to the alleged rumour.

NATS closes down, so do the airlines.

Must send an Xmas card to Fatty 2 Jags thanking him for his sound foresight!

No use sending one to smiler, no idea where he will be over Xmas.

Gwyneth where are you?

[Captain Windsock]

I am gobsmacked at the complaceny of most NATS operational staff. We have seen some airlines going down the drain, others on half time and half pay yet within NATS many believe because they are operational they are somehow protected. 20% of support jobs are to go but at the moment operational staff are unaffected. Come on boys wake up your job is no longer for life. I am an operational controller in TC and am worried. I am also a mortgage tart and having just come out of a lock in period with one lender I am changing to a much better deal with another. However this time, for the very first time, I am taking out a mortgage protection insurance policy.
I hope I am wasting my money on this but would you gamble against it?? :confused:

[BuzzLightyear]

For sale:

500 shares in a newly privatised dynamic company. Will accept a large turkey with all the trimmings (Got to feed the wife and kids)

Wait a minute, I've already been sold a turkey.......

[MACC 29 all the time!!!!]

And on that note 5milesbaby!!! I can't recall the last time I saw anyone from LATCC plugged in alongside me at MACC either yet a good number of you down there treat us as public enemy number one on the phones!!!

[250 kts]

M29ATT, Christ ,here we are in the middle of a financial crisis and all you can do is moan about the lack of LATCC staff doing liaison visits!!

You may not be aware but there's a thing called OCT going on which tends to take up most peoples' time off. eg. only 1 full weekend off since March and have just done 12 days with only 1 off in the middle.

In return, I can't remember seeing anyone coming down here despite 4 days off at the end of a cycle and less traffic to recover from.

Let's not turn this into fighting amongst us when there are major problems facing us all!!

[TC_LTN]

Barrack Room Chat in the TC Ready Room the other day suggested the Unions had been informed that it was not going to be possible to pay staff before Xmas but payment would be made under the normal criteria on 27 December. Rumours continue to circulate about 3 January pay date but nothing substantiated. What a shame that TAG cannot 'manage' these rumours and give the troops some facts. Even if it was not good news, I would suggest that an 'informed' workforce would be less volatile than some of the 'extreme' contributors to this thread.

[AyrTC]

Next left etc
I do not know what unit you work at however at ScACC "for example" Antrim sector should be manned by a S and a T controller most of the time it is bandboxed thus freeing up a spare controller to "do" a high level sector.If we worked to rule we would demand the Antrim Sector be fully manned and a high level sector would be one down therefore flow measures would have to be introduced therefore Airlines would winge.We as ATCO's would possibly get a better "spin" if we informed the press that we were manning sectors as agreed by management in WPP,at the moment we are making things work by our flexibillity.However our future does not look bright if some of the (new?)ATCO's need an explanation of how a work to rule could work.

Are we just going to roll over on our backs like my dog does when he is being totally submissive.I bet we could be very good at that (however I should imagine not many of us could lick our own b*ll*cks. :p )

edited because I was concentrating on the last image instead of my spelling!!!


AyrTC :(

[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: AyrTC ]

[NextLeftAndCallGround]

A better spin if we informed the press that we were manning sectors as agreed by management in WPP,at the moment we are making things work by our flexibillity
I think if you start saying things like that you'll have the public wondering why things aren't done as agreed already. It's not going to do a lot for public confidence if you let out sound bites like that out of context.

However our future does not look bright if some of the (new?)ATCO's need an explanation of how a work to rule could work.
Hate to repeat myself a bit but perhaps 'our' future appears bleak because we're going to have to join the real world.

Get real!

[250 kts]

AyrTC, I assume that when you say Antrim is bandboxed, you mean that 1 person does S&T?.
If that is correct, then I would suggest that you are your own worst enemies in letting management get away with that type of staffing. If there are not enough staff then you should all insist on flow being imposed and sectors staffed correctly.

At LATCC this year sectors have been regularly closed due to staff shortages. I'm sure the airlines aren't too happy about this, but when was the last time they got a B757 airborne with only 1 flight deck????.

No we shouldn't roll over & die ,but we must get our own house in order first.

Off to do my double nights now-no calls until Monday lunchtime!!

[AyrTC]

It isn't that management are putting pressure on us .It is just that the original P/E system with the Marconi Locus 16 system was years ahead of its time hence the flexibillity dogma that most Controllers have at ScACC.I was just trying to get across the point that in the past the flexibility of the P/E system was second to none.No Sector was overloaded due to one person
doing the sector ,however the other "person" was still in the ops room helping out another busy sector.
Unless you have worked the system it is hard to describe.However if we did work to rule management would have a staffing nightmare.I would also point out that a/c have never been in danger by one person doing P/E.The onus is on the sector controller to ask for a "P" man when it gets busy.

AyrTC.

ps It is lucky that the Locus 16 was so ahead of its time or we would be really knackered at the moment.

[Justin A Beaver]

TC_LTN, if the unions have been told, then why do they not tell the members who pay their dues. Disgusting, absolutely disgusting and shameful on them if it is true! Who is trying to hide just what? This comment is made on the assumption that the unions have not issued an update on affairs for a good while!

Kenny and his hotline (As listened to this week) does not mention this post Xmas pay date?

As I have not been told to the contrary, I will expect to be paid as normal. If the union knows something and does not tell, it opens the doors for individuals to take their own action against their own union and this action could cost....? So on the basis that the rumour is correct and that we will not be paid until post Christmas, (NATS can quite legitimately do this, but custom and practice dictates otherwise). Can the union withhold this kind crucial info from its members?

As my annual pay award is due on Jan 1st 2002 courtesy of NATS previous/current management wisdom, events in the world will not distract me from seeking this. Are we all to seem happy getting paid for Jan 2002, be thankful for a job, be sorry for all the aviation related job losses, and then ditch the award to help PPP work?

Fireworks next weekend at a certain conference I hope!!

Seriously though, if this is soundly accurate, just what shape is our business in post Sept 11th. Very worrying. PPP has much to answer for!

[160to4DME]

<< Sadly nodding head in full agreement with Justin A Beaver.

:confused: :( :confused: :( :confused: :( :confused: :(

[MACC 29 all the time!!!!]

250 I wasn't refering to just now I mean ever!! We at Manchester did liason visits on a regular basis to other units before OCT and the financial situation. I have it from reliable source that when a watch manager from up here who moved down there, tried to arrange a visit to Manchester for his watch, he got no takers at all!! Even with all expenses paid! And your attitude to my post just confirms what I was saying!! I don't want to get in a fight or slanging match and agree we should all be pulling together, it is a team game, but what i was saying is the team you in AC seem to work with is one of your own,damn the consequences for everyone else!!! and unable to accept criticsm from other units while handing plenty out itself.

PS I am fully aware of OCT have wasted many days down there talking to 3 a/c per hour!!! whilst some student fresh from the college is sat next to me overloaded on the daventry feed!

I'll expect a rant back around Monday lunch time then!!! (Joke) Rant over

[MACC 29 all the time!!!!]

Anyhow back to the original title of the thread if this rumour of 3rd of Jan is true that is surely a major breach of contract and the union should be acting on it now!!!! Will TAG/NATS be liable for any bank charges that are incurred due to there not being enough money in account's to pay mortgage payments etc?

[Loki]

MACC29ATT:

Yes, it`s perfectly true, the WM in question got no takers at all. However, that was in no way due to any attitude to Manchester, but was, I am reliably informed, due almost entirely to the lack of regard towards the aforesaid WM. I believe the visit was to have taken place on days off which didn`t exactly help as most people have a life outside ATC.

[ 28 October 2001: Message edited by: Loki ]

[250 kts]

Thanks Loki for beating me to it. Would you seriously want to spend your days off doing this?. Imagine driving 80 miles up the M3 to get in a coach at LATCC to travel up the motorways for 4 hours and do the return a day later and no TOIL.

3 or 4 years ago we did try to get a LATCC/MACC liason group going but it fell beside the wayside very quickly. Anyway give it a couple of years and we'll all be in sunny Hampshire together and any crap presentation can be dealt with face to face. :D :D

On the subject of the salaries-where did all this come from. If you have the slightest doubt as to NATS ability to pay, I suggest you mob the GM's office until you get a satisfactory answer(or at MACC, maybe hijack his parking spot). ;) ;).

TAG got this PPP on the back of communication-let's start holding them to it.

[j17]

who or what is behind this scaremongering about getting paid.there were posts in september about banks pulling out of tag and no money avialable, we got paid,I got approx an extra £2oo this month for training, no mention of deferring this payment due lack of money,if I get paid on the 26 27 28 29 of december I do not care because it makes January a lot more easier to get through.Seriously where we are talking about people,s mortages loans etc, cut the rumours lets just deal with the facts

[Loki]

250kts:

Apropos your final remark

Really? I thought TAG got PPP on the back of a fag packet!

[Scott Voigt]

Hmmmmmm, I guess I must be sick then <G>. I go and visit facilities on vacation <G>...

regards

[TrafficTraffic]

No Scott....your not sick, well if you are, then I am too.

;)

I think its called being Interested and Proud (but dont mention that 5 letter word around these blokes)

[VectorLine]

TT

The word you're looking for is sad. Just like those who pay good money for a comfy seat on a plane then asked to be squashed into a jump seat for the duration.

Any, what's all this crap about us NATS staff not getting paid? Have you all got your heads up your arses or what?

I wish I had started this rumour, it's a corker.

How can you all be so gullible?

[ 29 October 2001: Message edited by: VectorLine ]

[1261]

Sorry to sound like a spotter, but I agree with Scott and TT....

I enjoy my job a great deal, and if that means investing a little of my own time and money from time to time, then so be it. I enjoy coming into work each (most) day (s); there's very little that management can do to change that!

Maybe Vectorline should suggest that his employers (whomever they may be) begin offering anger mangement courses - during work hours, of course - it sounds as if he could use one!!

[Arkady]

Please see all the above as good reason for a NATS only forum. I can't imagine any non-NATS atco will be the worse off for missing all this. :rolleyes:

[ProceduralVector]

Vector Line,

I wouldn't call it sad. I would call it pride in giving the best possible service. Knowing the next or previous persons job and knowing the workload on the Flight Deck in different situations is an intricate skill to better quality. It improves ATC service and improves an ATC's skills.
Additionally visiting other centres can also mean a tax deduction when on holiday for some countries eg Australian ATC's can claim a tax deduction for visiting other centres.

So please don't criticise others for volutarily trying to improve their skills.One day it may come that you will thank them for putting in that extra bit of effort when they pull you out of the fire. Remember what goes around comes around mate!!!!

[TrafficTraffic]

You tell em PV

But it is the sort of WORLD-ROTATES-MY-SUN attitude that you get from these guys. Why would they possibly want to visit another centre, or more, are there other centres?

Apart from the taking pride in your work thingy, I know I know that by the time NERC opens you hope to have totally eliminated any pride, skill or ability that you may have once had as ATC's there also comes the part of actually being interested in your work.


Just like those who pay good money for a comfy seat on a plane then asked to be squashed into a jump seat for the duration.


Never even been in the front of an aeroplane have you Vectorline.... on most United 747-400's for instance the "jump seat" is one of their old First class seats, or even better a nice cosy spare bunk...and then many times upon visiting the drivers have I been invited to sample the luxuries of Business class for the rest of the flight. 99 times out of 100 the crews are amazed to see ATC's visit the front, not only does it break the boredom (for both parties), it shows the flag and ....well far be it for me to suggest such a thing....you might actually learn something

oh thats right .. you know it all already, sorry

[Bewli-Begto]

I`ve noted a lot of people whinging here about other units` presentation of traffic - how about I start a new thread for people to `discuss` these issues? WARNING - this will not turn into a slanging match between LATCC AC and TC! If that`s what you want, try somewhere else. If you`re interested in a sensible discussion, have a look at the new thread. Cheers, BB!

[chiglet]

So, Totally Trafficless,
[Apologies to all, He's got me going.....yet again!!]
Q.Have you ACTUALLY been on a "Liason Visit?"
Q.Have you REALLY been on a Fam Flight?
Q. Have you ANY idea just what is going on in the REAL world? :eek: :confused:
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[160to4DME]

TT and PV

I've begun to notice that as you follow each other from thread to thread, you're so far up each other's arses, I'm beginning to wonder.....

Are you lovers ???


:D . :D . :D . :D . :D . :D . :D . :D

[gul dukat]

Guys if there was ever a need for a PRIVATE nats forum then that to$$er Traffic Traffic should be all the justification needed .He arrives on this site with a demeanour designed to wind people up ....lets get the private forum off the ground .

[VectorLine]

Hello...?

I'm not angry at all... I'm quite happy actually. I also enjoy my job a lot. I never had much aviaition interest when I started out. However, now I very much enjoy liason visits and fam flights. But I wouldn't pay for a fam flight on the odd chance I might get to sit in business. I wouldn't collect train numbers either. but some people love it. Just my opinion you see.

oh and traffic - I don't see anything in my previous post to suggest I am a "know it all". Mind you, there is plenty to suggest that you are an uppity, opinionated t**t!

Now then, back to what this post was originally about - who started this rumour about us not getting paid in December?

[Father Dougal]

Well said vectorline,

And as for you union bashers out there - if you're not being given information about when you're being paid then harass your managers not your reps. They're supposed to be the ones with the information!!! It's not unreasonable to ask your employers if there's any truth in the rumour. :rolleyes:

[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Father Dougal ]

[250 kts]

Ok , let's try and put the visit issue to bed.

TT& Scott, many people are keen to make visits to other units and also fam flights provided that it doesn't impinge on their home life. Many ATCOs at LATCC are involved in a 160 mile a day commute just to do a normal days' work as lots have moved in preparation for NERC.

It used to be that time in lieu was given for these activities,but since this is no longer the case, many are reluctant to do them. eg. We get transatlantic fam flights, but they involve the return trip plus only 1 night in the US. Nice to do provided you're not at work the day after you get back,especially as socialising with the crew is expected whilst out there!

We do still get some liasion visits but this has been an extremely tough few months for most people in AC due to the NERC training-again no time in lieu is allowed.

Whenever I fly I ALWAYS try to get "up front" for a chat and indeed earlier this year was refused access to the flight deck for the first time ever( except on some US carriers). I've also visited numerous centres particularly in the US when over there.

But this type of thing is not for everyone!!

I believe that Maastricht do still get visits paid for and do them in company time-correct me if I'm wrong TT. We recently had Canadian controllers over on a visit and they had around 6 days to make the trip!!

Manchester is not the most salubrious place to spend your days off (sorry chiglet), and I'm sure the WM would have got a greater uptake if a) he'd chosen Maastricht or Paris/Rheims, and b) hadn't been going himself.

NATS is in a mess at present, with the training at NERC being inadequate, commuting, no improvement in management communication even when there are rumours that we may not get paid soon, and also the potential for large job cuts in support grades.

[ProceduralVector]

160 to 4 DME,

This is exactly the response I would expect from someone with the intellect and brain capacity of a gnat.
You sound like the exact type of person on the other end that continually delivers crap to the accepting unit due to his ignorance and lack of knowledge.
I don't necessarily agree with TT's comments on all accounts but find it amusing in his baiting and the constant bleeting from LATCC controllers taking the bait. If you had any brains you would ignore him and eventually he would go away. Your response to a serious discussion of famil visits to find out the other persons job highlights the infantile attitude that you have. Or maybe your colleagues only let you out of your padded cell during the quiet times, but then again it only takes 2 aircraft to make a conflict or maybe you haven't realised that yet.
160 to 4 DME "You are the weakest link, Goodbye".

[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: ProceduralVector ]

[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: ProceduralVector ]

[Scott Voigt]

Howdy;

Y'all's version of FAM trips are a bit different than ours. For going to facilities you go on duty time and only duty time now. On flights it is the same thing and we can combine vacation time at the destination if we would like.

Right now ALL FAMS are ended with the security that is in place. As for US air carriers, they have had a closed cockpit policy (Federal Air Regs) for close to two decades.

Also, just what is a traffic presentation that you are all talking about. I am confused.

regards

[160to4DME]

PV

And talking about taking the bait, your response suggests you swallowed it hook, line and sinker :rolleyes:

If you can't take as much as you give, then button it :eek:

Roll on the NATS forum (that's probably enough to generate a response) :p

[TrafficTraffic]

Come on guys....calm down.

Hey this suggestion about a NATS only forum just seems a little silly. I mean have you blokes at NATS wondered why there are not a whole lot of posts from others bitching about their entres/units/towers...whatever? Its because we have all our internal discussions internally. It seems that you huys are more intent on destroying you own morale than your new bosses.

B]I can see it now in TAG HQ[/B]
Two blokes resembling Mr Burns and Smithers Logged on to NOBS (NATS Online Bullsh!t Service) whilst downloading the latest Kylie and Brittany Spears MP3's from NOBSter they are killing themselves laughing reading the latest PPRUNE posts from their loyal worker ants.

Come on you blokes show some team spirit, I mean your own team and then I can get back to Baiting you guys properly. Because at the moment I feel genuinely sorry for you, becasue as an outsider it appears you are receiving little information form management, no information from your unions and people are just making up their own reasons....just the facts , usually works.

I am happy to be corrected on any point.

P.S. 160-4 I dont bat for the other side...and I know PV doesnt ....any more....well not often any way.

;)

Come on Chin-Up you NATS boys and girls, better than a transfer to Kabul TWR.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Procedural Vector, please let me know where you got the chip that's on your shoulder.......it's a doozie !!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

[160to4DME]

Oh dear, I hate to admit it, but I have to agree with TT's post. :eek:

Let's all kiss and make up, but please, no tongues :D .. :D .. :D

[divingduck]

hmmm, now that you've all kissed and made up...a question if I may?

Scott asked it earlier, just what is an AC, TC, presentation etc etc...an "acronyms for dummies" please :o
Otherwise, us non European types haven't a clue what you guys are on about!

Interesting discussion though...

[5milesbaby]

TT - thanks, without being a git, it means something for you to say that.

Scott and dd, traffic presentation is the way we transfer aircraft to another controller without a phonecall saying whats happenning, basically their 'presentation' on the radar. Between many Latcc sectors, and also Maastricht/Latcc, this is permitted on headings with a few provisos, the main ones being radar working, phones working, and for Maastricht, climbing to different levels (oh, nearly forgot, SEPARATED!!). Its all to easy to sling an a/c on a heading though that is really unhelpful to the next controller, ie its fast exitting his airspace before it even calls!!!!! Inbounds to TC, ideal presentation is on speeds, 10-15 miles in trail, and the first doing no more than 300kts, even slower if holding is occurring (as far as I'm aware anyway).

[Scott Voigt]

Ahhhhhh I see...

Well we either have them on arrivals at the busy places or via the letter of agreement of how and where they will be...

regards

[divingduck]

I see too...now it all becomes clear.
We have that kind of thing here, letters of agreement etc...

thanks for that

[Undercover]

I know this is a discussion board and so is bound to include endless posts droning on about completely dull topics or off-the-mark rumour-mongering... but can we please stop this nonsense about not getting paid in December?!
The fact is that no decision has been made whether to make payday the usual week before Christmas, or (for obvious financial reasons) keep to the official payday of the 27th. Rumours that salaries wont be paid at all is complete nonsense.
As an aside on the subject... maybe if there is a worry about salaries being paid then the wealthy ATCOs could spare a thought for those in the industry who receive more modest pay packets.

[TrafficTraffic]

What exactly do you ADMINISTRATE?

[Undercover]

Job done !!

3 posts in a row without a silly rumour and all it took was an indiscriminate attack on professional pride.

I thank you... I'll go back to my hole-punching and envelope stuffing now. :D

[Mr Chips]

Undercover - "late" pay rumour being confirmed bt senior union officials. Means NATS is strapped for cash.

That's my source and opinion...whats your source?

[Great Unmanaged]

A good guess might be that a 'prudent' beancounter, of which there are FAR too many, has decided that you don't spend it until you got it. Hence pay due on normal date. Nothing wrong with it. NATS are not strapped for cash, they/we are not swimming in it either.

You ATCO's really need to develop some professional confidence and not jump down the throat of the first non-ATCO that dares to state that you are well paid. You are all far too touchy.

Just because someone is not an ATCO, excluding Tragic Tragic, does not mean that they are pen pushers. Are ATCO's pen pushers? The definition probably fits. :D

[TrafficTraffic]

Now Great Unwashed is that an Insult or a compliment?

[Undercover]

"Late" pay-day has not been confirmed - fact. :p

Pen pushers? Very antiquated terminology... must be an ATCO... Jesting of course. ;)

[Great Unmanaged]

Well Tragic Tragic - I did not expect you to be capable of working that out for yourself - up to spec then. :D

[Mr Chips]

OK - "late" pay date not confirmed - but senior union officials seem to believe it.....

Not starpped for cash - tried to order anything recently?

Remember our printing service - became Westward Digital? Rumour care of NERc is that they are in receivership. Thats right, they are the ones that print MATS 1, NREC part 2 etc.....

[TrafficTraffic]

Damn, how embarassing, cant even figure out if some failed ATC wanabee is insulting me.

Well Tragic Tragic - I did not expect you to be capable of working that out for yourself - up to spec then.

I guess what I lack in brains is made up for in wealth - according to you. And if I could just arrange the time after my 2 hour shift here in the ER (Thats East REDFA, not the show - although it could be!)I'd hop on my Gulfstream (Thats an aircraft Great Unwashed) and hop over to Heathrow (Thats an airport) I'd come over an see how PPRUNE's fav Backdoor Boyette is going, if you weren't on a coffee break or a flex day off or on a course to better improve your hole punching.........

WOW you are right Unwashed....its not that hard to make a Rash Generalistion now is it?

Now where did I leave my Ferrari....god dammit I had a reserved parking place last week until ......oh never mind :(


coz I kant spel

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: TrafficTraffic ]

[Great Unmanaged]

What a prat. Didn't know that Ferrari made Pandas. You really are your own worst enema! :D