No pay for December?
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No pay for December?
Latest rumours at LATCC are that us NATS ATCO's are going to be having a very lean Christmas......
It seems likely that we will not get the December pay before Christmas as we have before and possibly not at all in December.
Seems like the bean counters have found that NATS won't have the capital to pay us until it recieves fees from eurocontrol, which are paid on the 27th of the month.
Therefore we will not be paid before Dec 27th, and unless the money is paid to us that day we may not get it until after the new year holiday.
Now, if we do not get paid during December are NATS in breach of contract?
How will this affect those of us with Mortgages, loans other borrowing etc?
If we are not paid before close of play on New Years eve, would you be preapred to come to work on New Years day?
Also have it on very good authority that the Finance Director at a high level management meeting was seeking to withold pay for this month....Until he was forcibly told that if NATS was in touble now, just see what shape it would be in if they didn't pay the ATCO's.
Looks like bread and water for Chrismans dinner then?
It seems likely that we will not get the December pay before Christmas as we have before and possibly not at all in December.
Seems like the bean counters have found that NATS won't have the capital to pay us until it recieves fees from eurocontrol, which are paid on the 27th of the month.
Therefore we will not be paid before Dec 27th, and unless the money is paid to us that day we may not get it until after the new year holiday.
Now, if we do not get paid during December are NATS in breach of contract?
How will this affect those of us with Mortgages, loans other borrowing etc?
If we are not paid before close of play on New Years eve, would you be preapred to come to work on New Years day?
Also have it on very good authority that the Finance Director at a high level management meeting was seeking to withold pay for this month....Until he was forcibly told that if NATS was in touble now, just see what shape it would be in if they didn't pay the ATCO's.
Looks like bread and water for Chrismans dinner then?
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If NATS hold back paying, I wonder what the affect will be on TAG if we stop work or work to rule? Could force their hand.
Being that the airlines keep saying they are in trouble already I can see some going to the wall in a day or two especially if they can't afford the insurance hikes they are expecting.
I suppose NATS will suspend us and the goverment will bring in the boys in blue!
Being that the airlines keep saying they are in trouble already I can see some going to the wall in a day or two especially if they can't afford the insurance hikes they are expecting.
I suppose NATS will suspend us and the goverment will bring in the boys in blue!
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If only half the sentiments expressed on PPRUNE were reflected by appropriate action (nice NATS buzz phrase, eh !)out in the real world, we might not find ourselves in such deep cack.
I hate to say it, but we've brought so much on ourselves by being appathetic and ineffective over the last few years.
It seems that whilst ATCOs will defend their profession to the end, they just don't have the stomach to fight for the conditions and rights which they deserve.
Until that changes, any management will think they can walk over us and get away with it.
I hate to say it, but we've brought so much on ourselves by being appathetic and ineffective over the last few years.
It seems that whilst ATCOs will defend their profession to the end, they just don't have the stomach to fight for the conditions and rights which they deserve.
Until that changes, any management will think they can walk over us and get away with it.
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I have regularly seen posted that we should 'work to rule', my question is, 'don't we anyway, and a little the other way???'. Working to rule sounds like doing 1 1/2 hours on, and 1/2 hour off??? I'll stick to my 45 min turnabouts thanks, or have I got it terribly wrong??????? 
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If we are paid on the "normal" day of the month for December I for one will not be too unhappy - the nearly 6 weeks wait until the Jan pay packet is always a strain!
However if the pay is not in the bank at the end of each month, and I now check that its cleared - something I would never even thought of in 27 years until a few months ago - then I just hope that UK ATC stops the very next day.....
However if the pay is not in the bank at the end of each month, and I now check that its cleared - something I would never even thought of in 27 years until a few months ago - then I just hope that UK ATC stops the very next day.....
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5 Miles
Yes I think you may have it slightly wrong.If we have to work to rule yes we do need to work 1 1/2 hours on and then take a 1/2 hour break.I think you will find that the majority of NATS units do that any way (We certainly do not have the luxury if 45 mins on 45 mins off up here.
)It would also mean giving up eg's working full night shifts and manning sectors correctly even if there was no traffic on them no bandboxingbut still insist the sector was double manned then when a break is needed
management will have to close sectors to provide relief.Please look at the long term,working to rule can be a double edged sword but it is about time operational staff picked up some kind of weapon for their defence.
AyrTC
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: AyrTC ]
Yes I think you may have it slightly wrong.If we have to work to rule yes we do need to work 1 1/2 hours on and then take a 1/2 hour break.I think you will find that the majority of NATS units do that any way (We certainly do not have the luxury if 45 mins on 45 mins off up here.
)It would also mean giving up eg's working full night shifts and manning sectors correctly even if there was no traffic on them no bandboxingbut still insist the sector was double manned then when a break is neededmanagement will have to close sectors to provide relief.Please look at the long term,working to rule can be a double edged sword but it is about time operational staff picked up some kind of weapon for their defence.
AyrTC
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: AyrTC ]
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AyrTC, thanks for that, only looked at the surrounds, not the overall picture 
As for full nights and eg's, sounds like we do that at Latcc on many sectors already at the moment, although we do get the odd 'perk', but no where near as often as a couple of years ago. However I still can't see the advantage of it, we already close sectors or flow for bandboxed positions because of short staffing, just seems like we work even harder but shift no more traffic.
[Edited for drunken English]
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: 5milesbaby ]
As for full nights and eg's, sounds like we do that at Latcc on many sectors already at the moment, although we do get the odd 'perk', but no where near as often as a couple of years ago. However I still can't see the advantage of it, we already close sectors or flow for bandboxed positions because of short staffing, just seems like we work even harder but shift no more traffic. [Edited for drunken English]
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: 5milesbaby ]
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Is this fact then?
We will not be paid until close to the new year?
Obviously this can happen, but over the years that I have worked for nats, custom and practice was always to pay pre-Xmas.
Is there a memo out from management or the unions (Hohoho)stating this?
We will not be paid until close to the new year?
Obviously this can happen, but over the years that I have worked for nats, custom and practice was always to pay pre-Xmas.
Is there a memo out from management or the unions (Hohoho)stating this?
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I reckon that the "correct" day for December salaries to be in accounts is 27th. ie leaving 28th and 31st as the two clear days. As the company appears to be almost bankrupt, then I for one will not be working in January if I am not paid for December. Remember we are paid in arrears. This is not strike action. If NATS breaks the contract by not paying its debts then it is hardly strike action not to go to work.
I would also suggest that if salaries are not paid then NI contributions would not have been paid which begs the question "Are you insured at work?"
Z
I would also suggest that if salaries are not paid then NI contributions would not have been paid which begs the question "Are you insured at work?"
Z
The NATS Employees' Handbook states quite clearly that salaries will be paid into the staff's bank account by the third last working day of the month.
That date is the 27th December 2001.
If it is any later than that, then NATS are in breach of contract. I, for one, will not be working on 1 January 2002 if the salary is not in my bank account on the due date.
Moreover, if the money is not paid on time, then I suggest that people who are due to work on or after the 28th December 2001 seriously question whether or not they should work, being as we are, after all, paid in arrears.
I also believe that one of TAG's edicts was to "quash rumours" - so come on NATS - tell us the truth - for once ????
That date is the 27th December 2001.
If it is any later than that, then NATS are in breach of contract. I, for one, will not be working on 1 January 2002 if the salary is not in my bank account on the due date.
Moreover, if the money is not paid on time, then I suggest that people who are due to work on or after the 28th December 2001 seriously question whether or not they should work, being as we are, after all, paid in arrears.
I also believe that one of TAG's edicts was to "quash rumours" - so come on NATS - tell us the truth - for once ????
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what a load of pish and speculation!
Where DO these stupid rumours start?
Of course we will be paid. This isn't the USSR you know. And we all know that those threats not to turn up to work are empty whinges anyway. It's all been said before, and with no action.
ITHINK - poor TC. aaaawwwww! try working for 45mins side on to a radar screen and sharing a strip bay! AC should get longer and more breaks than TC on account that we don't have any cushy ergonomic workstations and easy on the eye colour displays.
Of course I don't really believe this, I'm just ranting at such an idiotic post.
Where DO these stupid rumours start?
Of course we will be paid. This isn't the USSR you know. And we all know that those threats not to turn up to work are empty whinges anyway. It's all been said before, and with no action.
ITHINK - poor TC. aaaawwwww! try working for 45mins side on to a radar screen and sharing a strip bay! AC should get longer and more breaks than TC on account that we don't have any cushy ergonomic workstations and easy on the eye colour displays.
Of course I don't really believe this, I'm just ranting at such an idiotic post.
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Delighted to see some plain and simple sense spoken by Goldfish Watcher. I hate to think what anyone outside the business seeing this thread will think! You may be *issed off at the way NATS management continue to act - perhaps with good reason - but, for heaven's sake, don't spout this sort of garbage!
And as for AyrTC's
What are egs? What do you mean working full night shifts - what's the alternative? And manning sectors correctly - what else do you do?
No wonder you're frightened of the real world!
And as for AyrTC's
It would also mean giving up eg's working full night shifts and manning sectors correctly even if there was no traffic on them
No wonder you're frightened of the real world!
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IThink, Im not going to get into a slanging AC/TC match (hopefully), but yes, I have been into TC MANY times. During my training I visited about 5 times, and before that did my OJT there. Since then I have been through about 3 times to ASK what happens to **** so that I know in future, after some phone call full of blue rage. I have never had an arguement with TC over poor presentation on either their or my behalf. When was the last time you sat in AC???? Only today I heard an AC watch training manager quote 'I cannot remember the last time a TC student sat in here'. My post was slightly tongue-in-cheek too, as 45 min turnabouts aren't the norm, but they happen. We have to man for the usual 'rushes' when we split all ways, then it becomes 1 1/2 on, 1/2 off. Its just nice outside these when we can relax a little more before the next wave.
Back to working to rule, I'll generalise by saying isn't it working to CRATCO (or whatever it is) which frankly we do anyway? I'm sorry for my thickness on this, but can someone actually explain how it screws up the rosta's/working practices, without just totally screwing ourselves in the process.
---Learn by mistakes, just hope they aren't big ---
Back to working to rule, I'll generalise by saying isn't it working to CRATCO (or whatever it is) which frankly we do anyway? I'm sorry for my thickness on this, but can someone actually explain how it screws up the rosta's/working practices, without just totally screwing ourselves in the process.
---Learn by mistakes, just hope they aren't big
---
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5Miles, what are you on?
The topic is pay, or maybe a lack of.
If the problems associated with PPP and Sept 11th have had such a massive down turn in revenue, both you and I should be worried.
Would the fact that PPP was so delayed result in a planned shortfall of cash whilst TAG re-negotiated a financial package post award by HMG? Add into this the very much un-planned downturn in revenue from en-route charges post Sept 11th, it all equates to some pretty rapid dynamic thinking and maths from TAG in order for our company to survive in the short term?
May I suggest that talk of walk outs, strikes, work to rule, be off set against massive unforseen circumstances inflicted on our new mangement?
TAG could decide to cull operational staff due to a downturn in flying. They have not done so yet. Let us be thankful!
No I am not management, just a realist! Too many folk within the airline industry are out of work now.
[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: OrsonCart ]
The topic is pay, or maybe a lack of.
If the problems associated with PPP and Sept 11th have had such a massive down turn in revenue, both you and I should be worried.
Would the fact that PPP was so delayed result in a planned shortfall of cash whilst TAG re-negotiated a financial package post award by HMG? Add into this the very much un-planned downturn in revenue from en-route charges post Sept 11th, it all equates to some pretty rapid dynamic thinking and maths from TAG in order for our company to survive in the short term?
May I suggest that talk of walk outs, strikes, work to rule, be off set against massive unforseen circumstances inflicted on our new mangement?
TAG could decide to cull operational staff due to a downturn in flying. They have not done so yet. Let us be thankful!
No I am not management, just a realist! Too many folk within the airline industry are out of work now.
[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: OrsonCart ]
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Rant on, Go
Heard from manager today, via colleagues, that lack of payment in Dec "may be a bit more than a rumour" (management speak for "I'm just a much in the dark as you are" or "You'll be paid when you get paid, now get back to work!")
Any union reps/bec members out there like to clarify to the rest of us where we stand if we are not paid on the contractual date? Are, even as we speak, union persons banging on the door of senior management and asking for a definative answer? Will said union inform said management that they have two months to sort this out, and if it is not sorted then the members will not turn up for work untill salary has been recieved in all members bank accounts?Have the union contacted the other major shareholder, ie HM Gov and advised them of the situation and also the press as regards the possible lack of flights after the 27 Dec?
The answer to these, and far more, questions is awaited with bated - but, frankly, going on past performance - unhopeful breath.
Rant off, Go
Heard from manager today, via colleagues, that lack of payment in Dec "may be a bit more than a rumour" (management speak for "I'm just a much in the dark as you are" or "You'll be paid when you get paid, now get back to work!")
Any union reps/bec members out there like to clarify to the rest of us where we stand if we are not paid on the contractual date? Are, even as we speak, union persons banging on the door of senior management and asking for a definative answer? Will said union inform said management that they have two months to sort this out, and if it is not sorted then the members will not turn up for work untill salary has been recieved in all members bank accounts?Have the union contacted the other major shareholder, ie HM Gov and advised them of the situation and also the press as regards the possible lack of flights after the 27 Dec?
The answer to these, and far more, questions is awaited with bated - but, frankly, going on past performance - unhopeful breath.
Rant off, Go
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Looks like a worst nighmare!
How can folk work when they are clearly not going to be paid according to the alleged rumour.
NATS closes down, so do the airlines.
Must send an Xmas card to Fatty 2 Jags thanking him for his sound foresight!
No use sending one to smiler, no idea where he will be over Xmas.
Gwyneth where are you?
How can folk work when they are clearly not going to be paid according to the alleged rumour.
NATS closes down, so do the airlines.
Must send an Xmas card to Fatty 2 Jags thanking him for his sound foresight!
No use sending one to smiler, no idea where he will be over Xmas.
Gwyneth where are you?
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I am gobsmacked at the complaceny of most NATS operational staff. We have seen some airlines going down the drain, others on half time and half pay yet within NATS many believe because they are operational they are somehow protected. 20% of support jobs are to go but at the moment operational staff are unaffected. Come on boys wake up your job is no longer for life. I am an operational controller in TC and am worried. I am also a mortgage tart and having just come out of a lock in period with one lender I am changing to a much better deal with another. However this time, for the very first time, I am taking out a mortgage protection insurance policy.
I hope I am wasting my money on this but would you gamble against it??
I hope I am wasting my money on this but would you gamble against it??
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For sale:
500 shares in a newly privatised dynamic company. Will accept a large turkey with all the trimmings (Got to feed the wife and kids)
Wait a minute, I've already been sold a turkey.......
500 shares in a newly privatised dynamic company. Will accept a large turkey with all the trimmings (Got to feed the wife and kids)
Wait a minute, I've already been sold a turkey.......