Old Warden infringements on 5.9.04

[Hairyplane]

During Sundays display we had 2 infringements to my knowledge.

The first was an overflight by a light single - registration obtained apparently.

The second was personal....

I was downwind in the Magister on a tight left hand circuit onto 21 at around 600 ft when I met a blue and white low wing single - possibly a Cherokee - in the opposite direction. He was approximately 300ft further out and 50ft higher than me.

He then turned left and descended to low level - well below 500ft - before departing East.

Blind or what?

Even if he hadn't read Notams, common sense demands vigilance on a summer sunday when near OW, or anywhere else for that matter.

An unexpected fright when you have the comfort of a Notam-promulgated TSRA.

Had I done a higher/ further 'normal' circuit then things might have been different.

HP.

[Kolibear]

I can't help feeling that there is scope for a separate page on the NOTAMs site devoted just to airshows.

After all, most shows are organised a year in advance and even if this proposed page listed them a a one line event such as "Sept 5th Old Warden Bucks", that should be enough to warn most pilots to stay clear.

A link to the Notam could be added later, when its available.

I feel that all the info. necessary for a full pre-flight briefing is available, its just that its a real pain trying to collect it.

Theres obvious a market for a one-stop pre-flight brief site. Click - Met - click - airshows - click - Red Arrows - click - Purple Airspace - click -logoff.

[BRL]

Someone told me recently that when the Shoreham airshow was on, there were at least two per day that called the field asking for information. The atco asked if they were part of the display each time and they didn't have a clue. Amazing isn't it.

[FlyingForFun]

Interesting.....

Not knowing about an airshow is a sign of not having read NOTAMs.

The incident which HP is describing, though, does not sound like a case of not reading NOTAMs. Even if a pilot is unaware of the day's activities, flying through an active airfield's circuit without making radio contact is not generally the done thing. And then, according to HP's account, the aircraft proceeded to descend to a height which would most probably have resulted in breaking low-flying rules.

But let's also remember that there are always two sides to a story. Perhaps the pilot was lost - thought he was somewhere other than where he actually was? No doubt as soon as he realised his mistake, he immediately called 121.5, or possibly Luton, for assistance, and would be very embarrased if he realised what he'd done.....???

FFF
--------------

[High Wing Drifter]

With the Narrow Route system, if you enter your Easting/Westing or Northing/Southing coordinates incorrectly, then it is highly likely that you will not receive information for the area of transit AND that there are no NOTAMS for that wrong area to alert you.

[dublinpilot]

I think pilots also need to expand the width of the narrow route briefing too. One big CB on your track, or a bit of low cloud, and you could easily find yourself outside the width of your corridor.

As for a seperate page showing just airshows, wouldn't that encourage people to look at that, and considered themselves briefed? And they would just ignore the other notams?

You MUST read the notams properly, or you run the risk of missing something that you were legally obliged to know about.

I also happen to agree with FFF. This case sounds more like someone lost (although they may not have realised it yet), rather than on track but badly briefed.

dp

[High Wing Drifter]

dublinpilot,

It seems quite random. With a 10nm width I seem to get NOTAM for stuff 40 or even 100s of nm away. However, when I widen the route suddenly I get that and more. It seems that somethings are marked to always show and others have a longer range and so are also included. I usually go for a 20nm width.

[Grandad Biggles]

CAVOK
Sandy Mast 972 ft with new lights!!!
A1
Cardington Hangers
2 Notams (1 ATZ, 1 Display)
Aircraft in the sky
Airfield, Windsock

LOST?

No way

Should they have even been flying?

I airprox report in the post, the other got away with it

FYI we are flying again next Saturday evening AND its NOTAMed

Please note our photographers are excellent. BEWARE.

[Chilli Monster]

Theres obvious a market for a one-stop pre-flight brief site. Click - Met - click - airshows - click - Red Arrows - click - Purple Airspace - click -logoff.

There already is one - AVBRIEF (http://www.avbrief.com)

[TD&H]

Grandad Biggles:

The next show is on 11th Sept? Well I've just been into the AIS notam site, put 11th in as date of flight, narrow route briefing to XWAR (the id it provides for Old Warden) and it shows NO NOTAMS at all for Old Warden for the period from now until 12th at 2359hrs! Now I'm no expert on using the site, but that shouldn't be required after all! Also many people on other threads have commented on how poor the site is. However that does give me cause for concern that I couldn't find a notam. (If I've got the date wrong, then put it down to finger trouble).

EDITED: Yes some finger trouble (date), however the display doesn't show against Old Warden as a destination, but was found further down. So looks like I take a hit, but also the AIS should take a hit for not listing the notam against the destination! Also slightly different info displayed depending on using XWAR or EGTH, and merely doing an aerodrome brief doesn't show it at all!!!

BTW saw the one infringement, but not HP's.

ATB, H

[vintage ATCO]

EDITED: Yes some finger trouble (date), however the display doesn't show against Old Warden as a destination, but was found further down. So looks like I take a hit, but also the AIS should take a hit for not listing the notam against the destination! Also slightly different info displayed depending on using XWAR or EGTH, and merely doing an aerodrome brief doesn't show it at all!!!

And it won't. When a NOTAM is written it is coded A E or W to show whether it concerns an Aerodrome, an En-Route facility or hazard, or is a Nav Warning.

The Old Warden NOTAM would be a Nav Warning (starts with NAVW) because it extends outside the ATZ. It will therefore appear in the En-Route section of a briefing, not in the Aerodromes section

[gingernut]

Can I ask a dumb question....would red arrows/purple flights show up on a standard www.ais narrow route briefing, or should I be doing something additional ?

[TD&H]

Vintage ATCO, OK I've learned some more about the notam system, but I feel it's daft it not being in the aerodrome part. Quickest way of seeing if something effects your destination (or an airport near to your route, or the alternate) is to look at the aerodrome part of the notams, not expect to go search elsewhere!

However we could be going off thread here. But does it help show how easy info could be overlooked.

Thanks for the explanation. Still amazed by the infringements at OW.

[High Wing Drifter]

Do you mean in addition to the enroute. 'cos for NR, I wouldn't see the aerodrome part unless I specified that aerodrome in me route.

[IO540]

Not getting notams is firstly a failure of the lousy standard of PPL training, where historically the instructor would have a quick thumb through the day's notam printout pinned to the board before climbing into some plane which started its life before Gatwick was invented, and teaching navigation the good old way it was taught before the first plane capable of crossing the Atlantic was built.

But times have changed - we now have the internet!

It is a failure of many airfields for not providing internet access. It is only via the net that one can get the narrow route briefing. The other briefings contain too much rubbish for the average PPL to want to wade through.

What do the CAA do? They print up a load of booklets with premium rate numbers............ yeah right, every pilot is really going to phone them.

It is also a failure of the training to not tell students about the many points on the chart which have names e.g. CPT, KIDLI, SWB - all these can be entered into the ais briefing spec to extract a notam listing for the area. It is very rarely indeed that one should need to enter lat/long coordinates - just like in a VFR flight plan. These "places" are very useful - even if one was never taught how to actually navigate to any of them :O

Avbrief is a great site and I use it for every flight, but regrettably their notam function isn't yet multi-leg like the ais one is. Navbox now has a link to the Avbrief site which is another big step forward but it doesn't yet appear to work properly.

Surely the narrow route briefing DOES show airshows, royal flights etc, in fact everything whose circle intersects the route. One cannot specify an aerodrome in the briefing form anyway because aerodrome designations (e.g. EGxx) are not valid ICAO flight plan waypoints. One can specify a navaid located there (or nearby), an airways intersection, or a VOR radial/distance.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The Old Warden NOTAM would be a Nav Warning (starts with NAVW) because it extends outside the ATZ. Eh?? My map, edition 30, does not show Old Warden as having an ATZ. What have I missed??

[Zlin526]

Gertie,

Old Warden has a temporary ATZ established for Air Displays. This taken from from the NOTAMs:

TEMPO ATZ ESTABLISHED FOR FLYING DISPLAYS AT OLD WARDEN AD, 2NM RAD 520519N
0001906W FM SFC/2000FT AAL, DATES/TIMES AS BLW: 05 SEP 0800-1800, 11 SEP 0900-SS.
AFIS AVBL ON FREQ 130.700MHZ, AFISO UNIT CONTACT 01767 627563

As far as my own checking for NOTAMs goes, I choose the FIR option, sort by Geography (South to North), exclude foreign NOTAMs, etc etc to cut down the list to exactly what is relevant, then i scan read everything. That way, I dont miss anything, and I also get a manageable list that is not too long..:ok:

It's not that much of a problem really, although a graphical map presentaion, clickable red dots for NOTAM location etc would be a much better solution, but then NATS/AIS seem to be set on using the present system..

[PPRuNe Radar]

Just as an aside, since clearly the infringements mentioned are different circumstances, the presence of an ATZ without ATC means that you can still legally fly within it, since neither a FISO nor the airfield operators have any power to prevent access to ATZ airspace.

Having said that, the pilot has to ensure that they comply with ANO Rules of the Air Article 39. Amongst other things, this means they would have to obtain aerodrome information from the FISO to enable them to conduct a safe flight within the ATZ.

The judgement and airmanship then exercised based on the information passed is up to the pilot involved. It would also depend on the quality and quantity of the information given as well. Being told of an air display would on most occasions make a pilot be wary of routeing near the airfield, however, if told the display currently taking place was by a low and slow aircraft remaining close to the airfield, AND you had the aircraft in sight, then you might judge flying a suitable distance from the observed activity is 'safe'.

If there is Restricted Airspace (such as a Red Arrows TRA), then you have no excuse for entering and cannot legally do so, except under any conditions related to the specific TRA. Was there a TRA at Old Warden during the 'alleged' infringements ??

[High Wing Drifter]

It is very rarely indeed that one should need to enter lat/long coordinates - just like in a VFR flight plan. These "places" are very useful - even if one was never taught how to actually navigate to any of them
Nah! The best route to enter into the NR briefing is the route you intend to fly and use the route width accordingly...IMHO :)

[vintage ATCO]

If there is Restricted Airspace (such as a Red Arrows TRA), then you have no excuse for entering and cannot legally do so, except under any conditions related to the specific TRA. Was there a TRA at Old Warden during the 'alleged' infringements ??

There is always a notified display area in the Daily Nav Warnings, 3nm radius and 3500ft amsl, but this is not Restricted Airspace.

The ATZ (2nm/2000ft aal) is new this year, whenever there is an event on and therefore ATS manned, in an attempt to make people more aware there is something going on there. I agree it would be preferably if this was indicated on the chart, not sure if it is going to be. And presumably, for the benefit of some, on the GPS ;) :p

[S-Works]

Gawd I hope it was not me. I came down the side of old warden within about 5 miles on Sunday at 3500ft on a RIS from Luton and they did not mention any restriction and I also did not see anything in my notam search for the route.

I do find the AIS ouput a little variable at times, probably GI/GO but still it could do with being a bit more idiot proof!

[G-KEST]

I fear everyone gets the odd infringer these days. We did at Little Gransden at the "Children in Need" airshow on 29 August - right through the display box at around 2,000 agl. I append a paragraph from the pilots notes on the reverse of the detailed programme given to participants at that airshow.
"Check 6 while displaying. The airspace is NOTAMed but this does not sterilise it. A midair can spoil your entire day – and I know…!!".
One day in the not too distant future that MAC or a VERY near hit will happen unless folk can pay a bit of respect to aviation activities other than their own somewhat gormlessly planned aerial excursion.
My tin hat, or perhaps pickelhalbe, is secure, incomiiiiiiiiiiiiing....!!!
Cheers,
Trapper 69

[2Donkeys]

The ATZ (2nm/2000ft aal) is new this year, whenever there is an event on and therefore ATS manned, in an attempt to make people more aware there is something going on there. I agree it would be preferably if this was indicated on the chart, not sure if it is going to be. And presumably, for the benefit of some, on the GPS

Old Warden and its ATZ are marked on Garmin GPSes if you subscribe to up-to-date navdata. The field is shown as being restricted use, and the ATZ is shown in its full glory - even the dimensions are correct, a relatively new inovation for Jepp/Garmin.

2D

[TD&H]

Vintage ATCO:

Using the NR briefing I only saw a notam for OW having a display on 18th/19th September, NOT 11th. Which is why I suggested in my earlier post that I had put in the wrong date. Now it seems there was a display on Saturday 11th. So perhaps there is something significantly wrong. (Not just my finger trouble!)

Does this show that a narrow route briefing won't show all that is happening? Even tried it today (to check my sums), and couldn't find the 11th mentioned when using dates of validity which should have brought up one for the 11th. I'm confused:confused:

[S-Works]

Not just you I had the same problem when I did my brieifing before flying near it on the way to Le Touqet.

It did not appear in the AIS briefing.

[TC_LTN]

Having read the above I just went and recovered my Narrow Route Brief from my PLOG board for Saturday.

I can confirm it included the following:

NAVW: FROM 04/09/05 09:00 TO 04/09/11 22:59 H6466/04
D) 05 SEP 0900-SS, SEP 11 1100-SS
E) AUS 04-09-0129/3554/AS2
AIR DISPLAY/AEROBATICS WI 3NM RADIUS 5205N 00019W (SHUTTLEWORTH OLD WARDEN AD) CONTACT 01767 627500
F)SFC G)3500FT AMSL

[High Wing Drifter]

Curious. Why did the other poster retrieve a Temp ATZ message and that on is neither a TATZ nor a TRA?

[TC_LTN]

I received the Temp ATZ one, as well. I was just pointing out that a NOTAM relating to the air display on the 11th was issued and promulgated.

[vintage ATCO]

Using the NR briefing I only saw a notam for OW having a display on 18th/19th September, NOT 11th. Which is why I suggested in my earlier post that I had put in the wrong date. Now it seems there was a display on Saturday 11th. So perhaps there is something significantly wrong.

There never has been anything notified at Old Warden on 18/19 Sep. What did you find?

VA

[TD&H]

Vintage ATCO et al:

This is what I used: Narrow Route briefing, from EGSR to XWAR, using todays date and time. Notams from 040901 time 0001 to 040930 time 2359, not more than 10 days. FL (!) 30 and 10NM, DCT got:

NAVW: FROM 04/09/18 11:45 TO 04/09/19 17:15 H6832/04
D)1145-1715
E) AUS 04-09-0379/3736/AS2
AIR DISPLAY/AEROBATICS WI 3NM RADIUS 5204N 00019W (SHUTTLEWORTH OLD
WARDEN AD,BIGGLESWADE,BEDS). CONTACT 01767 627500.
F)SFC G)3000FT AGL

Now I know I wouldn't go direct between these points (Stansted in the way) , however was using DCT as couldn't find a suitable waypoint it would accept (ie wouldn't accept an airfiled code, and couldn't get lat/long to work (any help please?)). Plus was starting to get used to the system prior to using it in anger again for my puddle jumper flying.

I had tried using this before the display on the 11th, and still only got the above, hence my initial confusion about dates.

There's probably a good thread somewhere on how to use the AIC site without getting swamped with unwanted info. Any advice?

Regards

H

[vintage ATCO]

Hmmm, interesting. There is a Steam Rally and Country Fair this weekend but haven't heard there was anything flying. And they were suppose to be starting work on the runway this week to smooth out the bumps!

Mike Cross is your man for the AIS site. Do a search on here and the Flyer Forum for some of the things Mike has published, or drop him a PM.

[TD&H]

Vintage ATCO

Thanks, I've been away, but I'll drop Mike Cross a PM for advice and help.

Can you or anyone suggest how the AIS would have been advised of something for a date (18th/19th) when you suggest nothing relevant would be happening?

Anyone from AIS out there???

Cheers H

[Mike Cross]

Just picked up on this.

Nav Warnings (prefixed NAVW) are not mandatory, they are simply advising you on some activity taking place.

They are classed as Miscellaneous by ICAO and can be filtered out by choosing "General" rather than the default of "General and Miscellaneous" in the AIS Narrow Route Briefing. This will cause them not to appear in your briefing.

Generally speaking Aerodrome NOTAM are not issued for unlicensed A/D. If they're unlicensed they aren't in the AIP ergo the activity does not alter anything published in the AIP. However activity affecting the airspace around the A/D might be ther subject of NOTAM. For example the closure of a runway or lack of fuel at Popham wouldn't be notammed as Popham is not in the AIP, however parachuting at Popham might get notammed in the same way that it might anywhere else in Class G. One other thing, the existence of an ICAO locator (EGHP in this case) does NOT indicate that it is licensed.

Narrow Route Brief is the one to use. It defines a corridor between your departure and arrival a/d via any waypoints you enter in the Route Box. The corridor extends by default 10nm either side of track but you can change the Narrow Route Width value to alter this.

Each NOTAM has a geographic centre and radius of influence. If the radius of influence cuts your route corridor it should appear in the briefing.

Things that catch people out. Flight from A to B with alternate of C. If C falls outside your route corridor you will get aerodrome NOTAM for C but not any en-route outside your route corridor.

Default validity is 48 hours from when you click the Submit button. The Date and Time of Flight boxes do NOT affect the validity, which is only affected by the Validity Period boxes. (Flight date/time is only there for flight plan submission, which is not implemented on the UK version of the software.)

Note the Date format, ICAO standard YYMMDD not DDMMYY as we are used to in the UK. If you are flying on 5 September 04 and put the validity date in as 050904 you are going to get NOTAM for 4 September 2005!

These are general points, not related to this particular issue. If you have a problem with a particular briefing drop an email to [email protected] giving your user name, the date and time of your briefing and quoting the unique ID of your briefing. This is a number prefixed with the letter R that appears directly under the words NARROW ROUTE in the briefing header. This will enable them to locate it and find out what went wrong.

All mandatory airspace changes (TRA's and temporary airspace upgrades) appear on the recorded info line 0500 354802 and like everything else from AIS it's free! :ok:

I had an article in Flyer earlier this year on how to use the site which you might find useful.


Hope the above helps

[TD&H]

Mike Cross,

Thanks for your reply. Don't think I shall be able to find the briefing this problem came to light in, so will just keep an eye on things for the future.

I don't get to read Flyer, so missed the article. Anyone happen to have a copy that could come my way?

Thanks, H